Democratic Underground Latest Greatest Lobby Journals Search Options Help Login
Google

Can someone debunk this Newsmax article on Clinton/NSA/Echelon?

Printer-friendly format Printer-friendly format
Printer-friendly format Email this thread to a friend
Printer-friendly format Bookmark this thread
This topic is archived.
Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU
 
tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:38 PM
Original message
Can someone debunk this Newsmax article on Clinton/NSA/Echelon?
Some freeper is trying to equate this to Bush's order allowing spying without a warrant. I'm sure it's been covered here, I just am stupid when it comes to using the search function.

http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2005/12/19/114807.shtml
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
OPERATIONMINDCRIME Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:39 PM
Response to Original message
1. Source = Newsmax.... .....Debunking Complete. n/t
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:42 PM
Response to Original message
2. Mediamatters
4: Clinton, Carter also authorized warrantless searches of U.S. citizens

Another tactic conservatives have used to defend the Bush administration has been to claim that it is not unusual for a president to authorize secret surveillance of U.S. citizens without a court order, asserting that Democratic presidents have also done so. For example, on the December 21 edition of Fox News's Special Report, host Brit Hume claimed that former presidents Jimmy Carter and Bill Clinton issued executive orders "to perform wiretaps and searches of American citizens without a warrant."

But as the ThinkProgress weblog noted on December 20, executive orders on the topic by Clinton and Carter were merely explaining the rules established by FISA, which do not allow for warrantless searches on "United States persons." Subsequent reports by NBC chief foreign affairs correspondent Andrea Mitchell and The Washington Post also debunked the conservative talking point while noting that the claim was highlighted in the December 21 RNC press release.

From ThinkProgress, which documented how internet gossip Matt Drudge selectively cited from the Clinton and Carter executive orders to falsely suggest they authorized secret surveillance of U.S. citizens without court-obtained warrants:

What Drudge says:

Clinton, February 9, 1995: "The Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order"

What Clinton actually signed:

Section 1. Pursuant to section 302(a)(1) <50 U.S.C. 1822(a)> of the Act, the Attorney General is authorized to approve physical searches, without a court order, to acquire foreign intelligence information for periods of up to one year, if the Attorney General makes the certifications required by that section.

That section requires the Attorney General to certify is the search will not involve "the premises, information, material, or property of a United States person." That means U.S. citizens or anyone inside of the United States.

The entire controversy about Bush's program is that, for the first time ever, allows warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens and other people inside of the United States. Clinton's 1995 executive order did not authorize that.

more---->http://mediamatters.org/items/200512240002
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:46 PM
Response to Reply #2
3. Thank you, but the article cites a program in 1993.
I'll hang on to your link though, I think he's going to try that next.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. You are right that the article does say that Clinton was using Echelon
in the early 90's..hmm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
johnfunk Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
12. Actually, it DOESN'T...
... read it again.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:45 PM
Response to Reply #12
16. You are right..my bad..
"throughout the 1990's" was what I read
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Flabbergasted Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #3
8. This in from...
The Communist Gazette

Stalin today alowed his spy police to spy on anyone.....

snip

From Nostradamus...

An evil dictator will be followed by another evil dictator in the years after the twin man made towers are burnt in a new land


hmmmm
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
robbedvoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:56 PM
Response to Reply #8
10. Still trying the old "they are all the same" technique?
They were not, you know. neither was the media coverage of them.
But nice try, once again...
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:48 PM
Response to Original message
4. And here's more debunking from the Center for American Progress:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
peanutbrittle Donating Member (605 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
5. The entire controversy about Bush's program
The entire controversy about Bush's program is that, for the first time ever, allows warrantless surveillance of U.S. citizens and other people inside of the United States. Clinton's 1995 executive order did not authorize that.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
NYCGirl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:50 PM
Response to Original message
6. And more here:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
yankeedem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 09:53 PM
Response to Original message
9. Conservatives love Clinton
when it comes to justifying something DimSon has done.

I just cut and paste from Media Matters when they pull talking points. Don't even try to argue, just do that. Drives them insane. They want you to debate them.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:03 PM
Response to Original message
11. That article does not say what your 'freeper friend' says it does.
It tries to obscure the facts, but a careful read indicates that this was being used to provide economic intelligence to american corporations for their international operations.

"But Clinton officials also utilized the program in ways that had nothing to do with national security - such as conducting economic espionage against foreign businesses."

Not that this is not dubious, it is. Echelon is bullshit even if it is only used on foreigners. I simply don't buy the theory that we can abuse non-americans as we see fit.

Oh and finally, just because somebody else broke the law does not make it legal for you or that asshole in the white house to break the law. Tell your "freeper friend" that it must be legal to steal cars and rob banks as after all, this has been done frequently in the past. Clinton did it. Awk! Awk! Clinton did it!

(Personally I am dubious of every damn 'freeper friend' post here.)
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:09 PM
Response to Reply #11
13. Trust me, this freeper isn't my friend at all!
I just happen to have made a comment on another board, and some freeper swooped in like he was setting me straight.
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
quisp Donating Member (926 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:21 PM
Response to Original message
14. Newsmax lies so consistently that no debunking is necessary...
Like the current administration, their credibility equals zero. They should be dismissed out of hand.

Period
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
man4allcats Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 10:28 PM
Response to Original message
15. Yes. Here's the link to debunk:
Edited on Sun Jan-01-06 11:14 PM by anotheryellowdog
PreviousThink Progress. Click Echelon Myth.

NOTE: I should mention that the link I directed you to refers to domestic as opposed to economic spying. The link does clearly and plainly debunk, at the domestic level, any attempt to equate Bush's illegal use of Echelon and the NSA with Clinton's FISA compliant use. If I can find a link that more directly addresses the economic argument, I will post it for you.

Oops! One more edit - Just noticed! I missed this on my first read through these posts, but in fact NYCGirl (see #6 above) is right on target with < http://thinkprogress.org/2005/12/22/myths-as-news/ >. That Think Progress post accurately dissects a nonsensical Washington Post article as follows:

The opening sentence reads “Previous administrations, as well as the court that oversees national security cases, agreed with President Bush’s position that a president legally may authorize searches without warrants in pursuit of foreign intelligence.” That isn’t even the issue. The issue is whether the President can authorize electronic surveillance of U.S. persons without warrants. (No one disputes that it can do so abroad. That’s what it means to have an intelligence operation.)


Thanks, NYCGirl, for posting the right link to deal with the so-called economic spying issue. I've been wondering how to address that one myself.
:toast:
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
tjdee Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Jan-01-06 11:58 PM
Response to Original message
17. Thank you so much you guys.
Done and done. Debunked, and hopefully sent him crying for mommy. In a nice, civilized way I hope. :silly:

I appreciate it!
Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Jan-02-06 12:06 AM
Response to Original message
18. The Freepers are also stupid enough to think that echelon originated with
clinton, when in fact it dates back decades and was first conceived when the fear of a cold war was peaking.

Echelon is supposedly a worldwide intelligence network operated by NSA and its allies under the UKUSA agreement, which tracks, scrutinizes and documents email, Internet, phone, fax and other electronic traffic. It is, unlike many of the intelligence systems developed during the Cold War, primarily designed for non-military targets such as: governments, organizations, businesses, and individuals in virtually every country. It potentially affects every person communicating between and even within countries anywhere in the world.

One of the first references made to it dates back to the ‘70s, but conceivably it, or a similar intelligence network, has been up and running for much longer. For example, the US government has had computers capable of real time voice analysis for over twenty years, listening in on domestic but preferably foreign phone calls looking for keywords of interest. This simply makes Echelon a worldwide extension of this.

What Echelon does with the accumulated data is another matter. To quote the NSA:

‘As is the long-standing policy within the United States Intelligence Community, we must refrain from commenting on actual or alleged intelligence activities; therefore, we can neither confirm nor deny the existence of specific operations. However, we can tell you that NSA operates in strict accordance with U.S. laws and regulations in protecting the privacy rights of U.S. persons.’
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1280.1/


During the heated days of the Cold War in the '40s, '50s and '60s, much of the intelligence effort was focused on keeping track of the Russians' military activity, their progress in different areas of technology and naturally their diplomatic contacts with neighboring nations and allies. A lot of attention was given to monitoring the Soviet Union’s creep into Western Europe, and finding ways of combating its progress. Much of the information gathered, and any actions or decisions based on it, had to be executed within the shortest timeframe possible. Because of the ever-looming nuclear threat, where nuclear missiles could be airborne in minutes, any early warning of such a launch or an indication of a pending launch would enable the Western allies to take "appropriate measures".

The horrifying implications of such a nuclear holocaust have been more than enough incentive for the Western allies to form an alliance, formalized into the UKUSA agreement in 1948 and aimed primarily against the USSR. The UKUSA agreement binds America’s National Security Agency, the NSA, New Zealand's largest intelligence agency, the Government Communications Security Bureau, GCSB, Britain’s Government Communications Headquarters, GCHQ, the Communications Security Establishment, CSE in Canada, and the Defense Signals Directorate, DSD, in Australia together to form a worldwide intelligence network.

During that time, however, the Watergate scandal uncovered that US law enforcement and intelligence agencies were targeting US citizens for surveillance based on their political affiliations. This raised a lot of controversy concerning to what extent the NSA or any other government agency were allowed to gather information and where this information could be used. In hearings held in 1975, Senator Frank Church, in one of his closing statements, cautioned against the technological power of the NSA:

‘That capability at any time could be turned around on the American people and no America would have any privacy left. There would be no place to hide. If this government ever became a tyranny, the technological capacity that the intelligence community has given the government could enable it to impose total tyranny. There would be no way to fight back, because the most careful effort to combine together in resistance to the government, no matter how privately it was done, is within the reach of the government to know. Such is the capacity of this technology.’
http://www.hardwareanalysis.com/content/article/1280.2/


Printer Friendly | Permalink |  | Top
 
DU AdBot (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view 
this author's profile Click to add 
this author to your buddy list Click to add 
this author to your Ignore list Fri Apr 26th 2024, 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
Advertisements [?]
 Top

Home » Discuss » Archives » General Discussion (01/01/06 through 01/22/2007) Donate to DU

Powered by DCForum+ Version 1.1 Copyright 1997-2002 DCScripts.com
Software has been extensively modified by the DU administrators


Important Notices: By participating on this discussion board, visitors agree to abide by the rules outlined on our Rules page. Messages posted on the Democratic Underground Discussion Forums are the opinions of the individuals who post them, and do not necessarily represent the opinions of Democratic Underground, LLC.

Home  |  Discussion Forums  |  Journals |  Store  |  Donate

About DU  |  Contact Us  |  Privacy Policy

Got a message for Democratic Underground? Click here to send us a message.

© 2001 - 2011 Democratic Underground, LLC