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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:00 AM
Original message
"Your Move...."
"...Take a straight and stronger course
to the corner of your life
Make the white queen run so fast
she hasn't got time to make you wise
'Cause it's time it's time in time
with your time and its news is captured
For the queen to use
Move me on to any black square
Use me any time you want,
Just remember that the gold
'Sfor us to capture all we want,
anywhere, yea, yea, yea.
Don't surround yourself with yourself
Move on back two squares
Send an instant comment to me,
Initial it with loving care
Don't surround yourself
'Cause it's time, it's time in time
with your time
and its news is captured
For the queen to use ....."
-- I've Seen All Good People:Your Move, by Yes

The news about the Plame scandal investigation, including yesterday's scheduling of the Libby trial for January, 2007, has had a number of progressive democrats questioning if this is a case of justice delayed equalling justice denied. On a thread on the Democratic Underground discussion forum, I compared the contest between Patrick Fitzgerald and the Bush administration to a game of chess. Chess is not a game that appeals to people who want great excitement and instant results, nor is it a game won by those who focus on one or two pieces to the exclusion of the others.

The comparison to chess might appeal to some in the administration, because of the images of feudal kingdoms in medieval Europe. Many of the "modern" chess pieces have European names. It's interesting to note that the game actually is believed to have originated in India in about 500 ad, and to have spread to Europe around 1300 ad through Byzantium by way of the Moors. But that is probably of keen interest to a limited audience, and I risk losing readers if I try to connect the Scooter Libby trial with Columbus.

Thus, I would say that in the Plame scandal, we can identify the Bush administration fairly easily with specific chess pieces. Bush is the king; Cheney is the queen; Rove is the bishop; Libby is the knight; Wolfiwitz a rook; and other neocons are the pawns. In a game of chess, of course, there are two bishops, knights, and rooks, and each are identified as either the king's or queen's, depending on their position when the game begins. This is important in "chess notation," which is simply the manner that chess players keep track of the game.

As most people know, each chess piece has a "value." The queen is more valuable to the king than the others. The bishops and knights are of similar, though not exact, value in the game. Rooks can play an important role, both offensively and defensively, if used correctly. The more skilled the player, the better use the pawns play in the game.

Now, a good chess game can be viewed as having three parts: the opening, the middle game, and the end game. In the opening, each player tries to make strong moves to establish the most powerful position possible on the board. The four center squares are of particular importance; if the corporate media were to focus on a political chess match, those four squares get 99% of their reporter's attention.

Keep in mind that Patrick Fitzgerald was not involved in the opening of this game. Not only was John Ashcroft, the Attorney General who played a dual role as one of king George's rooks, in charge of the opening moves on what would become Fitzgerald's side, but other unseen forces were at play. In a December 5, 2003 edition of the Financial Times, an unidentified senior White House official is quoted as saying, "We have rolled the earthmovers in over this one." So we see that the administration set up the board before Fitzgerald was able to begin the "middle game."

In the "middle game," every single move has a definite objective. The player focuses on three basic things: to build position; to defend or attack; or to threaten and/or capture the opponent's players.

Libby is an interesting chess piece. He is often thought of as VP Cheney's knight. But his position in the administration was far more powerful than most people appreciate. He was the first person in history to hold three "power positions" at one time: he was the chief of staff for VP Cheney; national security advisor to VP Cheney; and assistant to President Bush. He is unique in the role he has played, and it is fair to say that Mr. Fitzgerald has, at very least, isolated Libby, and is about to take him off the board.

At the same time, we need to keep track of Mr. Fitzgerald's "middle game" moves to threaten bishop Rove, and to isolate and capture other rooks and pawns. And that is where we are, folks.

The "end game" in this case is simply to take the opponent's queen, and put the king in checkmate. A number of people are concerned that the opposing player will get frustrated at the way the game is going, and knock the board right off the table. It's a funny game, chess, and it can be full of surprises. But right now, Fitzgerald is controlling the game, and those who are familiar with political chess in general, and Mr. Fitzgerald in particular, know that he is on the move.
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Beetwasher Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:03 AM
Response to Original message
1. Why Do I Get The Feeling
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 11:04 AM by Beetwasher
That I should never play chess w/ you? Or Fitz for that matter.

Stellar post, as always, sir!
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Mabus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #1
4. If do play him
stay away from the Elephant Gambit.
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HysteryDiagnosis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:08 AM
Response to Original message
2. Yes, yes and yes.... great song, group, kicked and nominated nt.
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DemInDistress Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:10 AM
Response to Original message
3. good analogy...I love chess even though I haven't played in
years..I feel it will be the bush crime family who tips the board over in frustration when spygate,plamegate,
iraqnam,and the iranian oil bourse cranks up.. ^5 YES,,
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OneBlueSky Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
5. not to pick nits or anything, but I'm pretty sure that the line is . . .
"Send an instant karma to me" . . .
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:29 AM
Response to Reply #5
9. That's funny ...
I was tempted to change it to "instant karma," because I love that song. But then I thought it better to stick with the real lyric. I debated adding the Lennon classic at the end, too, though I'm never sure if the things that make sense to me make sense to others.
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dweller Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:30 AM
Response to Reply #9
10. according to Gunther Anderson
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:35 AM
Response to Reply #10
13. I had looked
on two "google" lyric sites, and both had it as "comment." But, on songs that I am more familiar with, I have found errors on google lyric sites. Hopefully, that only counts as your taking a pawn. (grin)
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #10
100. fascinating
I was stuck on that spot for a second or two as I read.

I know lyrics are often different that you thought "revved up like a deuce" from Blinded by the Light for instance, but I was fairly sure it was "instant karma". I love this song.
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:30 PM
Response to Reply #100
141. I thought it was "instant karma" too
But then I 've been singing the line
"she hasn't got time to make you wise"

as

She hasn't got time to make you a wife

all this time. Oopsy.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 12:50 AM
Response to Reply #141
149. Wow, I actually got that line correct
...and I'm pretty bad with getting the lyrics correct :rofl:
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suffragette Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 01:14 AM
Response to Reply #149
151. Yeah, I really botched that one.
:rofl:
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MGKrebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
26. And all these years I was singing "instant camera". Alas.
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American liberal Donating Member (915 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:28 PM
Response to Reply #26
32. LOL!!! "instant camera" :-)
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BlueEyedSon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:49 PM
Response to Reply #26
46. 'Scuse me while I KISS THIS GUY....
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:39 PM
Response to Reply #46
101. That site is good
It was funny hearing all the interpretations of "revved up like a deuce" from Blinded by the Light :rofl:
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postulater Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:36 AM
Response to Reply #101
121. NOOOOOO!
All these years and I've been singing "Wrapped up like a douche!"

Never did make any sense that way.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #121
122. Yeah, I was one of those interpretations
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 10:49 AM by Mr_Spock
involving a douche!!

Never made sense to me either :rofl:
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:44 PM
Response to Reply #121
128. No, it's wake up like a douche.
:evilgrin:

-Hoot
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #101
129. I've heard of that site but have never visited
I need to do some exploring there. I have annoyed a lot of people (especially my wife) by correcting them when they sing the wrong lyrics. I know I'd be embarrassed to find out how many I've mis-understood. At the risk of annoying anybody here by picking nits, do they really have "revved up like a deuce" at this website as being correct? I suppose Manfred Mann might have altered the original lyrics on their version. However, the original author of the song DOES have the lyrics on the back of his album (probably printed somewhere with the CD too).
And it says..........
"cut loose like a deuce"

Blinded By The Light- from Greetings from Asbury Park, N.J.
1972 Bruce Springsteen
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Olney Blue Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:14 AM
Response to Original message
6. Checks and balances-mate, King Bush.
Thank you for this insightful analogy, H20!

K and R
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:21 AM
Response to Original message
7. 'I have learned it, known who burned me,'....The Who said it best
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 11:22 AM by EVDebs
""Let's see action, let's see people,
Let's see freedom up the air,
Let's see action, let's see people,
Let's be free, let's see who cares.

Let's see action, let's see people,
Let's see freedom in the air,
Let's see action, let's see people,
Let's be free, let's see who cares.""

--Let's See Action, The Who

Yes is fine, H2OMan, but if you want to fire 'em up, get The Who out of retirement and Daltry's lungs screaming 'Eeee-Yeahhhhhhhhhhh' !

Let's make "LET'S SEE ACTION" our fight song, and see who cares.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:38 AM
Response to Reply #7
16. That's a good idea .....
I'm fond of the Tosh/Marley song "Get Up! Stand Up!," too.
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:01 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. More of an end game song
"Let's See Action".......loud, so you have to shout "CHECKMATE!" to be heard.
"I've Seen All Good People" is a good soundtrack for middle game play.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:17 PM
Response to Reply #23
29. It makes English blood run hot. We're not wimpin' here.
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 12:22 PM by EVDebs
Phil Gramm once said in '95 the R's would be hunting down Dems with dogs... You want to go down listening to KC and The Sunshine Band or kickin' ass and taking names ? Let them know that we'll play by their rules once we get back in the driver's seat...THAT alone should scare them into backing down a bit on their domestic spying by presidential directive gambit.

They go after political enemies and say it's national security. We can play that too. They should wise up, before it's too late.

Townsend and Daltry will get you there; criky, every other CSI has them as themes. Besides, the repetion of the echoed lyrics Let's See Action (Let's See Action), Let's See Freedom (Let's See Freedom)...and the retorical AND SEE WHO CARES (AND SEE WHO CARES) really underscores the difference between them and us.

We wouldn't mess with the Constitution, yet they will; we just have to give them the scare that WE would do what they're doing.

BTW, this IS the "ENDGAME" boys and girls. Every second counts for the next three years. Democracy is draining from the US second by second...

Until then...
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:26 PM
Response to Reply #29
30. And how about:
"...You say you'll change the constitution
well, you know
we all want to change your head ...."

I've always though "Revolution" was one of Lennon's best songs.
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:34 PM
Response to Reply #30
35. The domestic spying files on Lennon were on TV the other day
Either History channel or A&E (or both, I think they're linked corporately). "Go, Johnny, Go" cracked me up when Harrison yelled it out during the rooftop version of Get Back in that Let It Be movie they did.

That's how I see good 'ole Johnny. A decent chap, all things considered.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:41 PM
Response to Reply #35
39. I watched that
with one of my sons. We ended up discussing David Peel and some of the projects he was involved in that John helped with. Good man, David.
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:20 PM
Response to Reply #39
52. I have never listened to Peel's album "1984"
But based on the title, this may be an appropriate time in to check it out.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 08:27 AM
Response to Reply #39
110. There's probably a picture
in my FBI file of David Peel with his arm around me. He took a liking to me at one of his Dope Ins in Central Park. We got together a couple of time after that and I have to say he was a nice fellow, though not really my type it turned out.

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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 08:42 AM
Response to Reply #110
112. David and I
shared an interest in some political activities in the "good old days." The last time I saw him was in the village of Woodstock in the late 1980s. The original "Lower East Side Gang" was having a reunion of sorts, and a friend and I joined them on stage for a few crazy songs, most of which were composed during the breaks. When we were watching the Lennon program about the Nixon administration spying on John, and they mentioned David, my younger son asked, "Isn't that the guy you knew?" Then he wanted to know why the FBI would be interested in him. Some day I'll tell him the stories of old.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:20 AM
Response to Reply #112
116. LOL
I'd like to have seen that, you up on stage singing.

BTW: I meant to say Smoke In, not Dope In. So much for my memory. I guess I fried a few too many brain cells back then, but at least I had a good time doing it.

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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:38 PM
Response to Reply #112
126. The good old days
sure must have been an exciting time to be in New York among people on the cutting edge of music & politics. Peel, who knows the importance of investing the financial rewards of his talents back into his community, surely made a big impression on other artists.....and anyone else he came in contact with.
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:42 PM
Response to Reply #30
40. It may not be the best album ever recorded,
but it's the best one I've ever listened to.
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:31 PM
Response to Reply #29
34. I think they are operating on the premise
that WE'LL never get back in the driver seat.

"God save the Queen
HE ain't no human bein"
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:39 PM
Response to Reply #34
37. Let's scare the hell outta them then, now, shall we ? crank it up
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 12:40 PM by EVDebs
With more Who music (windmill chords here; Moon bashing away, Daltry screaming, and the 'poor dumb deaf kid' (Pete) along with the silent Entwhistle)

People died to hear this band.

BTW, go see Three Days of the Condor and ask about the role of the NYTimes, then and now. Time warp.
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:18 PM
Response to Reply #37
51. Yeah, since they're pretty good at scaring me
but I refuse to let them know I was.

I saw "Condor", but it was a long time ago.......need to rent it again
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Guaranteed Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:24 AM
Response to Original message
8. I've played a pretty good amount of chess.
Your take on the game seems pretty accurate.

Except that rooks really need to maintain an offensive stature- rook placement is telling of who will win the game, particularly in the endgame. :)
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
11. "Cheney is the queen"
Not only is that highly accurate and the key to the entire analogy, but it is also damn funny to read.

Thank you H2O Man for once more reducing the complicated to the sublime. :hi:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. I edited some
of my jokes. They were in terrible taste. Had me laughing, though.....
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #14
45. terrible taste?
Naw! I won't believe it! :rofl:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:57 PM
Response to Reply #45
49. I was verily tempted
to go to confession this morning, after thinking the thoughts I had about the administration.
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American liberal Donating Member (915 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:28 PM
Response to Reply #49
69. If I were Catholic, I would have to join you...
I went to see the gay cowboy movie last night with a friend. One of the previews was for the upcoming "Why We Go to War," and they flashed on Rumsfeld for a moment saying something ridiculous like "the facts get in the way of the truth" and I blurted out a "Fuck you!" really loudly (to me, anyways). It just came out. It was like an involuntary reflex. When I did it a second time I quietly apologized to the young lady sitting to my left. She said it was OK, that she felt the same way. Everyone else in the completely full theater was silent, but I felt secure and in sympatico with at least one of my "neighbors."

Completely off-topic: Loved Brokeback. I'm afraid the war movie is going to be very difficult (but necessary) for me to watch. It is, after all, the economy, stupid...
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #49
117. you too?
I have to say, as a Catholic my entire life I have tried to keep hate out of my thoughts and words. It is near impossible for me lately with all things bush. I will be keeping the priests busy for a while I am afraid. :(
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:08 PM
Response to Reply #117
135. I was born into
a family where the Catholic church was a weekly event. I moved beyond it at around age 12, when during religious class, a friend said something about a UFO that was in the news. The nun teaching the class said there's no such thing as UFOs. I asked how she knew? She said that if there were, it would surely be in the bible. I asked her how Elijah left the earth? She said in a flaming chariot. The class was silent for a moment, then started laughing. My father was called, and that which happened next convinced me I was not cut out to be a Catholic. I have many friends who are, though.

I was joking about feeling guilty. Actually, I enjoy the mad thoughts that frequently inhabit my mind. (smile)
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Art_from_Ark Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #135
152. Don't forget the visiondescribed in the book of Ezekiel:
4 And I looked, and, behold, a whirlwind came out of the north, a great cloud, and a fire infolding itself, and a brightness was about it, and out of the midst thereof as the colour of amber, out of the midst of the fire.

5 Also out of the midst thereof came the likeness of four living creatures. And this was their appearance; they had the likeness of a man.

6 And every one had four faces, and every one had four wings.

7 And their feet were straight feet; and the sole of their feet was like the sole of a calf's foot: and they sparkled like the colour of burnished brass.

8 And they had the hands of a man under their wings on their four sides; and they four had their faces and their wings.

9 Their wings were joined one to another; they turned not when they went; they went every one straight forward.

10 As for the likeness of their faces, they four had the face of a man, and the face of a lion, on the right side: and they four had the face of an ox on the left side; they four also had the face of an eagle.

11 Thus were their faces: and their wings were stretched upward; two wings of every one were joined one to another, and two covered their bodies.

12 And they went every one straight forward: whither the spirit was to go, they went; and they turned not when they went.

13 As for the likeness of the living creatures, their appearance was like burning coals of fire, and like the appearance of lamps: it went up and down among the living creatures; and the fire was bright, and out of the fire went forth lightning.

14 And the living creatures ran and returned as the appearance of a flash of lightning.

15 Now as I beheld the living creatures, behold one wheel upon the earth by the living creatures, with his four faces.

16 The appearance of the wheels and their work was like unto the colour of a beryl: and they four had one likeness: and their appearance and their work was as it were a wheel in the middle of a wheel.

17 When they went, they went upon their four sides: and they turned not when they went.

18 As for their rings, they were so high that they were dreadful; and their rings were full of eyes round about them four.

19 And when the living creatures went, the wheels went by them: and when the living creatures were lifted up from the earth, the wheels were lifted up.
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Imagevision Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:54 AM
Response to Reply #45
104. I hate the idea of keeping the trial under wraps until after 06 elections
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 01:27 PM
Response to Reply #104
133. Yes, I do too.
But I can't say I'm surprised about it. Bushco will do everything possible to delay.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 05:50 PM
Response to Reply #14
68. Terrible taste?
That's the same as saying Cindy Sheehan's shirt was in terrible taste at a State of the Union Address, while Bush "dignified" the same event with transparent, verifiable lies. ;)
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:48 AM
Response to Reply #11
19. That Was My Immediate Take Too
Damned funny.... if it wasn't so sad.
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thinkingwoman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:48 PM
Response to Reply #19
44. I'm learning that in times like these
it's important to grab smiles and laughs whenever and where ever possible. Since realizing this, I've noticed that the Irony Gods provide many, many opportunities that are often overlooked. :evilgrin:
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Fovea Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:34 AM
Response to Original message
12. Mixing Chess Metaphors
Pinning Libby forks Cheney and Bush.
Forcing a sacrifice of Rove at the minimum.

But the metaphor reaches a limit, because Rove,
despite the rhetoric, and the head under the plane wheel, will not take one for the team I believe.

Nice choice of the Yes lyrics...
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:37 AM
Response to Original message
15. Don't forget that Fitzgerald prosecuted Al Queda
He was a Manhattan District Atty under Morgenthau and he pursued Al Queda after the '93 bombing - I think it was the blind sheik - so he no doubt knows EVERYTHING there is to know about both Al Queda and this admin in regard to 9/11. I think he is fueled by moral righteousness and won't stop until justice is served.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:39 AM
Response to Reply #15
17. I'm starting to think
that you are fond of Mr. Fitzgerald, Ms. Stephanie. I've heard he needs help with his ironing.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. Give him my number!
:evilgrin:

But seriously, my friend, can you discuss this a little bit? He was chasing down Al Queda just like that guy who died in the WTC who was a FBI Al Queda expert- O'Neill. Fitz was working out of New York tracking terrorists. Did you know that NYPD has its own intel units all over the world? Isn't that curious? Why wouldn't they rely on the FBI/CIA? So Fitz is prosecuting the blind sheik and you know he is thorough, so when 9/11 happened he would be very, super aware of the backstory. I would love to know his thoughts on 9/11. I don't know if he was still here or if he had already left for Chicago. If he was here, the federal buildings and courthouses are just blocks from the WTC. I know he had to take it very personally. If he has any of the suspicions that we do about the bush admin's failure to act to prevent that attack, then I would bet he's highly motivated to see justice in this case.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:57 AM
Response to Reply #18
21. An Interesting Note In The Blind Sheik Case
He also prosecuted the sheik's lawyer, Lynne Stewart, for being a conduit of info between the sheik and his supporters.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #18
25. Interesting topics.
I'll start with the NYC IU. Yes, I am familiar with it. It is highly specialized. Regarding the FBI/CIA, and if the city relies on them or not .... it might be worth considering a couple things from the past. For starters, the FBI's director J Edgar Hoover used to exercise a larger degree of control (of information, which is power) by "trading" top level people with other agencies. I am not saying that there isn't a natural competition between various agencies -- there certainly is -- but anyone who has supervised knows that I am correct in saying that "shared staff" counters many of those potential tensions. Hoover had more influence, for example, in MI than most people know. (I'm sure that our good friend Octafish would confirm the significace of this in the Army having a domestic unit trailing Rev. King, something that was confirmed in the 1990s.)

The over-lap between the NYC and other intelligence agencies allows coordination of each's specialized areas of operations. Do you see what I'm saying? It's interesting, because this is exactly what I've been saying here on DU about the domestic spying scandal .... it is silly to think that the NSA is the only issue here. ACLU Executive Director Anthony Romero recently sent a letter to document some of the cases they are working on. While many DUers are aware of the suit involving the NSA (which includes James Bamford!), fewer seem aware of this: "When they issue over 30,000 National Security Letters to permit the FBI to seize people's personal records with no judicial oversight ...." Romero sent a message that recognizes the coordination of efforts by various agencies in the domestic spying that is absolutely in violation of the Constitution.

And that brings me to this: you must have seen that Jim Comey, who appointed Fitzgerald, strongly opposed many of the anti-Constitutional activities of this administration. Comey is a conservative republican. He recognized that this administration was dangerously out of control, and it is safe to say that this played a role in his resignation from the Justice Department. And who knows? It might have played a role in his selection of the Bulldog.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:49 PM
Response to Reply #25
54. I'm Thrilled About The NYC IU
I've felt safer ever since they put it together. Interesting, they also have people on the ground in foreign countries and went over to London. when the bombing occurred, to learn. They have farsi and Arabic speakers etc. In fact the FBI is said to come to them. Maybe what is going to happen is that the cities will take over and make the feds redundant. The only troublesome aspect is the big brother one, which people always get carried away with. But there is an interesting case before the courts. The police have accused the police of spying on them when they were having strike issues, just as was done to war protesters etc. A taste of the same medicine may provide the cure.

As for Comey, I have to say, when it was reported he resisted spying without warrants, it confirmed my belief in his choice of FitzG.
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foreverdem Donating Member (759 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:57 PM
Response to Reply #18
80. He was on his way to Chicago that very morning
According to the Vanity Fair article, Fitz was driving into the city on the morning of Sept 11 to pack up the remainder of his belongings (this was his last day in NY before moving to Chicago) and he said when he heard about the Twin Towers he "felt like he had been hit in the stomach with a sledgehammer". He did manage to make it to Chicago and watched the towers fall on the tv in his hotel room. He offered to come back to NY that very day to help out with the case, but was told to stay put for the time being. I find it very interesting that he was never tapped to become involved in the 9/11 investigation being he had so much information about Al Queda.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:29 PM
Response to Reply #80
88. Very Interesting
Didn't know that. It must have been a kick in the stomach considering he was involved with the first attempt.
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:25 AM
Response to Reply #88
118. actually I don't know if he was prosecuting that or something else
possibly the USS Cole? It was the blind sheik. And another thing everybody forgets is that there was an Al Queda sentencing scheduled that week in lower Manhattan. Maybe that was for the Cole, can't remember. But I do remember that because I was getting called for jury duty all the time around then and I was glad I didn't have to be at the courthouse that week, in case anything happened. I was thinking along the lines of a small bomb at te courthouse, like the first wtc. i'll look it up - i can't remember who was being sentenced. i think i saved an article somewhere.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 01:03 PM
Response to Reply #118
131.  A Moment Of Odd Synchronicity
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 01:05 PM by Me.
CNN just announced that the mastermind behind the Cole bombings has just escaped and Interpol is looking for him.

(edited)
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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 01:11 PM
Response to Reply #131
132. I didn't realize this - Fitz testified before the 9/11 Commission >
I'll read through this later but here it is for anyone else interested >

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A46525-2004Jun16.html

WITNESSES:

MARY DEBORAH DORAN,

FBI SPECIAL AGENT

JOHN PISTOLE, FBI, EXECUTIVE ASSISTANT DIRECTOR,

COUNTERINTELLIGENCE AND COUNTERTERRORISM

PATRICK FITZGERALD,

U.S. ATTORNEY FOR THE NORTHERN DISTRICT OF ILLINOIS

DR. K, SPECIAL ADVISER TO CIA

TED DAVIS, CIA OFFICIAL

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Stephanie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #88
119. Okay that was easy to find - it was for the embassy bombings >
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 10:37 AM by Stephanie

Don't you think the BFEE might have had a suspicion something could happen in lower Manhattan that week? I did. And I bet Fitz did too. I bet he knows a lot more about the BFEE than we do.





http://www.fbi.gov/publications/terror/terror2000_2001.htm


OCTOBER 18, 2001

Sentencing of Four Al-Qaeda Members Convicted of Bombing U.S. Embassies

On October 18, 2001, following a 6-month trial, four Al-Qaeda members received life sentences without parole for their roles in a conspiracy to kill Americans which resulted in the August 1998 vehicle bombings of the U.S. embassies in Nairobi, Kenya, and Dar es Salaam, Tanzania. In addition, each was ordered to pay $7 million in restitution to the victims’ families and $26 million in restitution to the U.S. Government. Mohamed Rashed Daoud Al-Owhali, Khalfan Khamis Mohamed, Wadih El-Hage, and Mohamed Sadeek Odeh were convicted on May 29, 2001, in the Southern District of New York on a variety of charges related to the embassies’ bombing plot that included murder, conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals, and conspiracy to destroy buildings or property of the United States. El-Hage was the only U.S. citizen held accountable for the attacks. The four were originally scheduled to be sentenced in September 2001, but sentencing was delayed due to the terrorist attack on the World Trade Center on September 11.

In the previous year, on October 20, 2000, a former U.S. Army sergeant, Ali Mohamed, pled guilty to assisting in the 1998 plot to bomb the U.S. embassies. Mohamed, a 48-year-old native of Egypt, implicated Usama bin Laden in the plot, stating that in 1993, he was asked by bin Laden to survey potential U.S. targets in Nairobi. In a statement to the court, Mohamed said, “these targets were selected to retaliate against the United States for its involvement in Somalia.” Two other terrorists, Mamdouh Mahmud Salim and Mohamed Sulieman Al-Nalfi were charged separately in the Southern District of New York for their roles in the 1998 bombings. After allegedly attacking and critically wounding a corrections officer at the Metropolitan Correctional Center on November 2, 2000, Salim was severed from the trial and will be tried separately on attempted murder charges in connection with the assault. Mohamed Sulieman Al-Nalfi was arrested in Africa on November 10, 2000. Charged with conspiracy to kill U.S. nationals, Al-Nalfi is in custody and awaits trial in the Southern District of New York.

Three individuals, Ibrahim Hussein Abdelhadi Eidarous, Adel Mohammed Abdul Almagid Abdul Bary, and Khaled Al Fawwaz, are being held in the United Kingdom and are expected to be extradited to stand trial in the Southern District of New York for their involvement in the 1998 bombings.

The bombings at the U.S. embassies on August 7, 1998, resulted in 214 deaths, including those of 12 Americans. During the trial, the jury heard evidence that Mohamed assisted with the construction of the bomb that exploded in the U.S. embassy in Dar es Salaam, and Al-Owhali drove the bomb in a vehicle and parked it at the U.S. embassy in Nairobi. From the beginning, Usama bin Laden and his Al-Qaeda terrorist network were viewed as orchestrating the bombings. In order to carry out the attacks, Al-Owhali and Mohamed attended weapons and explosive training at an Al-Qaeda terrorist training camp in Afghanistan. For their direct involvement in the attacks, government attorneys had originally sought the death penalty for Mohamed and Al-Owhali; this marked the first time the U.S. Government had sought the death penalty for individuals charged with committing acts of international terrorism.



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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:58 PM
Response to Reply #119
130. You Are, Of Course, Correct
It was for the embassy bombings
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Wordie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:53 AM
Response to Original message
20. ...a fascinating post.
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 11:55 AM by Wordie
I so hope that you are right about all of it

I does appear that Fitzgerald has the brains and single-mindedness to win. I'll be waiting with great anticipation for the checkmate!

Recommended. A feast for the brain as always, H20man. Thanks.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:01 PM
Response to Original message
22. Dumbsfeld is a Rook in this whole thing as well, it is funny how
he is impeding pre war intell investigations and he was directly repsonsible for getting Perle, Feith, and Wolfowitz on the board. It is almost like the King(Bush) already has used his castling move by having Rumsfeld in the position that he is in. Sorry if I am mixing to different games here, but I really liked you analogy cause I am BIG time chess player.

Thanks for putting this in a perspective in a way that I can understand, the whole time I kept thinking of the game of Risk, but that doesn't account for Fit'z role only for the Neocons trying to take over the world.

Thanks again - these are strange days and strange times for all of us.

Peace!

BTW my lady is a HUGE Lennon fan - she says it is a libran thing.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:29 PM
Response to Reply #22
33. I think Rummy is already off the board
I've read that his function in Iraq has been largely taken over by Rice, and I was watching the body language of those "glad handing" him at the SOTU. No one was taking him seriously, or paying much attention to what he was saying. He's beginning to look like the crazy-as-a-bedbug-uncle-in the attic, trotted out for official functions.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:09 PM
Response to Reply #33
50. Read this thread and let me know what you think - Dumbsfeld may
not be all that visible but he is still very much a part of this thing and the WH.

Ledeen/Feith/Wolfowitz = Perle = Dumbsfeld

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2416874





These neconcons constantly position each other to advance and protect their current positions and status, I read an excellent article the other day that talked about how these schmoes have consistently leaped frogged each other since the 70's to get where they are now. Pretty convenient how Dumbsfeld is where is today and how he has used that position to put people into power while bypassing protocols and now certain investigations are hung up. As stated in my previous post I may be mixing two different chess games here but Dumbsfeld is actively still on the board.

I always appreciate your thought and comments please let me know what you think - I don't want to be wasting my time focusing on the wrong areas.

Peace!



PS

if you really want to some good reading check out this paper by Robertpaulsen

More on Dumbsfeld here along with Darth Cheney - this is well worth the read.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=103&topic_id=66773
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:42 PM
Response to Reply #50
53. Good thread
Did that one end up in the 911 Forum too?
Rumsfeld, the gatekeeper, letting all the Iran-Contra criminals back in the system.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:09 PM
Response to Reply #53
73. Nope
as long as we watch what we say most of our Plame threads are able to stay out in the open on the down low.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:12 PM
Response to Reply #73
74. The Plame Threads
have been among the very best on DU for years. A number of the best minds on DU have participated in them since late spring 2004.
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 10:54 PM
Response to Reply #73
96. I understand what you are saying n/t
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bud E. holly Donating Member (82 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #73
99. An astounding body of work on the subject of Plame
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 11:14 PM by bud E. holly
as H2O Man points out.......from some very astute people, who have obviously worked hard. What I have been able to digest so far, I have been doling out to receptive people I know. I am always concious of maintaining my credibility with these people, when I'm discussing things that they get no inkling of from the media.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 10:37 PM
Response to Reply #50
95. Here's something I just learned about Rumsfeld and Cheney
That I wasn't really aware of before (my apologies if it's tangential to this thread, but it does provide a little more context, IMHO).

I picked up this book from the library the other day, Rise of the Vulcans: The History of Bush's War Cabinet by James Mann. It is a detailed account of the 35-year histories of the top six members of the Vulcans (Cheney, Rumsfeld, Powell, Wolfowitz, Armitage, Rice)--"Bush's inner circle of advisers who have a long, shared experience in government, dating back to the Nixon, Ford, Reagan and first Bush administrations." It's a little dry, but it has been interesting to read in more detail about how these people's histories are connected.

If anyone in America had the government experience to respond to a terrorist attack upon Washington, it was Cheney. As President Ford's deputy chief of staff and then chief of staff, Cheney had mastered the inner workings of White House operations right down to the salt shakers and plumbing. In Congress he had worked on the House Intelligence Committee, learning how the CIA and America's several other intelligence agencies operate. As defense secretary he had been in charge of the U.S. armed forces. Above all, although almost nobody knew it, during the 1980's Cheney had been one of the leading participants in the highly classified planning to maintain continuity of government and set up a new presidential chain of command if America was under nuclear attack.
chapter nineteen

More:

At least once a year during the 1980's, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld vanished. Cheney was still working diligently on Capital Hill, and Rumsfeld remained a hard-driving business executive in Chicago. Yet for three of four days at a time, no one in Congress knew where Cheney was, nor could anyone at Rumsfeld's offices locate him. Even their wives were in the dark; they were handed only a mysterious Washington phone number through which they might relay messages in case of emergencies... ...After leaving their day jobs, Cheney and Rumsfeld usually made their way to Andrews Air Force Base outside Washington. From there, in the middle of the night, each man, joined by a team of forty to sixty federal officials and a single member of Ronald Reagan's cabinet, separately slipped away to some remote location in the United States, such as a discarded military base or an underground bunker. A convoy of lead-lined trucks carrying sophisticated communications equipment and other gear made its way to the same location.

Rumsfeld and Cheney were principal figures in one of the most highly classified programs of the Reagan administration. Under it, the administration furtively carried out detailed planning exercise to establish a new American "president" and his staff, outside and beyond the specifications of the U.S. Constitution, in order to keep the federal government running during and after a nuclear war with the Soviet Union. Over the years a few details about the existence of this Reagan-era effort have come to light, but not the way it worked or the central roles played by Cheney and Rumsfeld... ...This was not some abstract textbook plan but was practiced in concrete, thorough and elaborate detail. The Reagan administration assigned personnel to three teams...Each team included an experienced leader, who could operate as a new White House chief of staff. The obvious candidates were people who had already served at high level in the executive branch, preferably with experience in the national security apparatus. This was where Cheney and Rumsfeld came in since they had previously served as White House chief of staff in the Ford administration. Besides Cheney and Rumsfeld, who were regulars, other team leaders over the years included James Woolsey, later the director of Central Intelligence, and Kenneth Duberstein, who worked for a time as Reagan's real-life White House chief of staff.

~snip~

... Reagan's secret program set aside these constitutional and statutory requirements under some circumstances; it established its own process for creating a new American president, ignoring the hierarchy of presidential succession established by law... ...Reagan established his continuity of government program under a secret executive order. According to Robert McFarlane, who served for a time as Reagan's national security adviser, the president himself made the final decision on who would head each of the special teams, such as Cheney and Rumsfeld. Within Reagan's National Security Council, the "action officer" for the secret program was Oliver North...Vice President George H. W. Bush was given authority to supervise some of these efforts, which were run by a new government building in the Washington area...and a secret budget...used to buy advanced communications equipment (apparently, some of the info about this secret program came about because of allegations of waste and abuses in awarding these communications contracts to private companies--Emit)


...Cheney and Rumsfeld were familiar with the Armageddon exercises of the Reagan era. They themselves had practiced all the old drills... ...except for Rumsfeld's brief stint as Middle East envoy, neither he nor Cheney ever served in the Reagan administration. Nevertheless, as team leaders Cheney and Rumsfeld played important roles in this project...Moreover, their participation in these Reagan-era exercises demonstrated a broader underlying truth about Cheney and Rumsfeld: Over three decades, from the Ford administration onward, even when they were out of the executive branch of government, they were never too far away; they stayed in touch with its defense, military and intelligence officials and were regularly called upon by those officials. Cheney and Rumsfeld were, in a sense, a part of the permanent, though hidden, national security apparatus of the United States, inhabitants of a world in which presidents may come and go, but America always keeps on fighting.

from chapter nine


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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 10:55 PM
Response to Reply #95
97. However Known This Info Is
it's still shocking to read
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:09 PM
Response to Reply #97
98. Yeah it is
I was aware of both of their histories with being involved in the previous administrations, with their ties to corporations, defense, etc.; and I was aware of the Reagan era martial law plan involving North; but the part that I wasn't really aware of was Cheney and Rumsfeld's (and Woosley's) involvement with this illegal martial law/continuence of government in case of emergency plan. And then to find out in detail the extent to which they were involved, and for how long they were involved -- that was news to me.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 07:07 AM
Response to Reply #98
107. Right.
It is strange to see that there was a plan of action made decades ago, that became self-fulfilling after 9-11. This is, of course, the "shadow government" that Dean, Byrd, and Bamford spoke about being activated by Cheney on the morning of 9-11.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #107
146. And Not Stopped
yet?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:56 PM
Response to Reply #95
145. I just bought the book ....
.... Glad you mentioned it. I went to the bookstore, and it was one of the ones I brought home today.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:02 PM
Response to Original message
24. I Don't Live Today, Maybe Tomorrow... I Just Can't Say
Hendrix
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:09 PM
Response to Reply #24
27. Good song .....
... his song about American Indians. His grandmother was Indian.
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Joe Fields Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #27
43. You know your music. Yes, it was about Native Americans, but
I feel it is very apropos for life in these United States today. By the way, good choice on lyrics. I too am a huge Yes fan.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:53 PM
Response to Reply #43
48. Yep ...
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 12:54 PM by H2O Man
in much the same way that the Indian was a perfect symbol of the real America in "One Flew Over the Cuckoo's Nest." Jimi was saying the same thing. I agree.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:12 PM
Response to Original message
28. Ooooh....I like men who know how to play chess...
:hi: H20 man!

Your analogy to a chess match and analysis of the Plamegate situation and investigation by Fitzgerald is fantastic! (I just hope that Fitzgerald knows how to play Chess well)....But your absolutely right, he is controling the game....
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:28 PM
Response to Original message
31. 'Hey, Big Brother', by Rare Earth , and Domestic Spying issues
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 12:30 PM by EVDebs
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=132&topic_id=2432151

The 60's and 70's are BACK !

Hey, Big Brother

Hey Big Brother
Rare Earth
(Dino Fekaris and Nick Zesses)

(Chorus)
Hey big brother,
as soon as you arrive,
you better get in touch with the people, big brother,
and get them on your side, big brother,
and keep them satisfied.

Welcome to the beat of the city street,
walk on now and don't be shy.
Take a closer look at the people you meet,
and notice the fear in their eyes,
watching the time passing by.

(Chorus)

Focus your eye on the filthy sky,
just as far as you can see.
Everybody's gettin' kind of tired of waitin'
cos' nobody wants to cry,
and nobody wants to die.

(Chorus)

Now that you got the picture,
what you gonna do?
Now that you got the picture,
what you gonna do?

http://ntl.matrix.com.br/pfilho/html/lyrics/h/hey_big_brother.txt
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EVDebs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:36 PM
Response to Original message
36. The saga of Jeb Bush, should be imortalized for posterity
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Missy Vixen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:40 PM
Response to Original message
38. All love to firedoglake
This is my new favorite re: the Plame investigation and Mr. Fitzgerald, the Who's "Love Reign O'er Me".

I can't sleep and I lay and I think
The night is hot and black as ink
Oh God, I need a drink of cool cool rain

Here's to the rain --

Julie
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:44 PM
Response to Original message
41. Judith Miller, Bob Novak - pawns in the WH game
& others of thier ilk.



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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:46 PM
Response to Reply #41
42. Yes ...
exactly. That is exactly what they are.
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bleever Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 12:52 PM
Response to Original message
47. "Steal a little and they throw you in jail,
steal a lot and they call you king."

Fabulous post. Rock n' Roll, chess, and palace intrigue. And some very informative comments and discussion in the responses.

:thumbsup:
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Catherine Vincent Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:55 PM
Response to Original message
55. Excellent post as usual, Waterman!
:thumbsup:
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American liberal Donating Member (915 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
56. My Dear Mr. Waterman:
I first made your "acquaintance" back when you first began exposing the Plame scandal--a full 2 years before Fitzgerald became involved in this process, and, being a skeptical newcomer to these boards, I questioned your integrity and motives.

I am back today to offer my sincere apologies and to commend you for your unflagging spirit and tenacity in keeping these important issues at the forefront of DU's political landscape. I don't play chess, so I am more comfortable with the analogy of a big piece of burlap-type fabric. You, and many, many others who are completely disenchanted with the current regime, have been picking away, one thread at a time, at this oversized, rough swath of cloth. And, I believe in my own unflagging optimism, that it's beginning to unravel. It's frayed around the edges and before long will be nothing more than bird nest lining that are abandoned in the fall as the architects head south for warmer climes.

Keep up the good work, Mr. Waterman. I am confident that we will prevail in the end.

Peace,
AL
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:14 PM
Response to Reply #56
57. !!!
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:41 PM
Response to Reply #56
58. Thank you.
I have had more than a few people question my integrity and motives, among many other things, over the years. And I've been called a fascinating variety of names. It reminds me, at times, of the back cover of the book "Cosell," by Howard Cosell, which reads: "Arrogant, pompous, obnoxious, vain, cruel, verbose, a show-off. I have been called all of these. Of course, I am." (smile)

I would hope that every DUer questions me, and indeed anyone who makes a claim of fact, be it in the Plame case or any other issue. That is what democracy is all about.
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:08 PM
Response to Reply #58
124. Waterman, You Bastid!
How dare you start a thread that I cannot possibly keep up with. One that is so dense in information that I've had to keep this tab open on my browser for days now, and still have not absorbed half of the implications.

How dare you make me work like that! Um, thanks!

-Hoot
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:27 PM
Response to Reply #124
125. This feels like
one of the threads from the old days, doesn't it?
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 12:40 PM
Response to Reply #125
127. Had I been here then, I would probably agree...
I've had to absorb those threads in synopsis form. You ever get down this way (Md.) let me know and I'll kill a fatted calf for you. I love to hear your stories in addition to your political commentary.

-Hoot
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:16 PM
Response to Reply #127
139. Thanks.
That sounds good, and I certainly will.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 03:45 PM
Response to Original message
59. There is one rule of chess you didn't factor in...
The King must obey the rules. This King clearly does not. In Bush's tournament, he determines the rules and gets to move the oppositions pieces for them. He can capture any piece he likes without worrying about the rules and even listen in on the strategy offered by the opponent. You can't win a rigged game. You can only refuse to play.
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dchill Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:03 PM
Response to Reply #59
60. Right...
The analogy only works until your opponent decides that his rules include the right to pull out a gun and shoot you. Presto! Checkmate.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:23 PM
Response to Reply #60
61. And besides, what the hell has Fitz given us anyway?
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 05:08 PM by mikelewis
He failed to find any evidence that Rove violated the law even though we all know he did. When Rove outed Mrs. Plame, he broke the law and now this Fitz guy can't seem to find it in his heart to prosecute him. I guess a confession isn't enough. By the time anything happens concerning this trial, we'll be bowing to President Jeb Bush and Vice Emperor Cheney. This is just another fucking white-wash in a sea of white paint. I suggest that, when push comes to shove, we refrain from bringing a chessboard to a gunfight.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:29 PM
Response to Reply #61
62. "He failed to find any evidence
that Rove violated he law even though we all know he did." You might benefit from looking closer at the case.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 05:02 PM
Response to Reply #62
65. How close do I need to look to see a free man...
Rove is under no indictments as of yet and so far there's very little to suggest he will be. Fitz is a fine man but he's tilting at windmills. Libby is just the sacrificial lamb offered up to appease the public and feign accountability. At the rate the case is developing, Fitz will be issuing subpoenas posthumously. I'm not suggesting he's complicit in the whitewash only that he is playing in a rigged game. His Boss is Gonzales (nuff said there), the Supreme Court which has shifted even farther to the right, handed these Neo-Cons the 2000 Selection and the Congress is but a rubber-stamping paper Tiger that serves to lend legitimacy to the raping of America. I know of Fitz"s alleged autonomy but he is mired in red tape and suffocated by political pressure from all sides. There is not one single branch of Government that supports his actions because they all stand to lose if Rove is convicted of anything. Fitz is in an impossible position and he doesn't have enough pieces to even force a stalemate. By the time this thing shakes out, Bush and the rest of his evil cohorts will be replaced by other equally evil despots rearing to wield the power of an Empire. Bushco will be gone and there will be no benefit to pursuing prosecution. For the Good of the Country and in the interest of moving on with the nations business, it will be best to grant a full pardon to all those involved. After all, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11,9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11,9/11, 9/11, 9/11.

I appreciate your optimism but you have to face reality. No one will suffer for breaking this law. Fitz, though honorable and well-intentioned, cannot turn the tide of fascism when the tools that he has to work with are provided by the fascists themselves. He may eventually "get" Libby but most likely not before Rove "gets" us. If Iran/Contra taught us anything, it's that no matter what laws are broken, the American Empire will pardon any offense done in their name. Through some miracle, should Fitz win this battle, WE will still lose the war.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 05:31 PM
Response to Reply #65
67. Interesting.
A couple comments, which are intended to be respectful. First, on this case, Gonzales is not his boss. The issues about Congress and the Supreme Court and red tape are valid in their own right, but are not factors -- at this point -- in this case. There are, however, many democrats who would love to see Rove nailed, and as Wilson explains in his book, there are many republicans who feel the same way.

It is true that Rove is not indicated as of today. However, it appears that you are not aware of what conversations are taking place between his attorneys and Fitzgerald. I believe that Raw Story has had some very interesting and fully accurate reports from December '05 on. It's interesting, though, that for a person who points out there isn't an indictment yet, you already have pardons as a likely outcome. You may be right.

However, if you mention Iran-Contra, which is a good example and fully worth our attention, then it is equally important to consider Watergate. Plenty of convictions. People were incarcerated. And there was only one pardon.

You are as entitled to your opinion as I am mine, of course. But I am confident that during the summer, we will continue this discussion, and you will be more hopeful. Of course, you might think Rove is getting off easy with a plea deal.
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mikelewis Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #67
70. I have yet to read a post where you have been disrespectful...
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 06:39 PM by mikelewis
and I hope you do not construe my evaluation as an accusation of blind optimism. I do not believe the Plame case will checkmate the Neocon masters who are playing this game. At best, Libby is merely a knight being chased by a queen and offers no strategic advantage. While we concentrate on capturing the knight and maybe a Bishop, Bush and Cheney are stealing pieces off the board and moving others where they're not supposed to be. By the time any impact is felt by the lose of the Knight and possibly the Bishop, the game will be over. We don't have enough moves to Checkmate the King and by the time we gain any strategic advantage, they will have a brand new set of pieces already laid out and we'll be in a new game, only we'll be without most of our pieces.

Let me clarify the statement where I said Gonzales was his boss. I know Fritz is independent of the AG but he is reliant upon the mechanisms of the Justice Department to investigate and prosecute this case. If the AG wishes to stall the investigation, you and I both know he can not only do it, but get away with it as well. The AG can directly affect the prosecution of the case by his allocation of assets and be completely justified because of our current war-time stance. Remember, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11.

The intent of these actions are not to protect Libby or Rove, it's simply to buy time and hopefully ride the case out until the end of Bush's reign Even if Libby or Rove do go to jail after Bush is out of office, it will have no significant effect on our situation. We might as well sign the petition to pardon them ourselves, what will it matter then. It's usually the case where a minor crime is forgiven in exchange for a conviction of a greater crime. In our current situation, that is now reversed. The President lied about WMD to lead us into war and cut the legs out from under an organization that could have stopped this from happening. He did this by breaking the law and outing a CIA agent. All we have in exchange for that crime is a Knight accused of lying. In 2009, will we even care if Libby's in jail or if Rove is under indictment still awaiting trial? No, we'll be too busy lamenting yet another stolen election and wondering why no one but us noticed.

If you're dreaming of one day seeing Bush frog-marched out of Washington in handcuffs, that dream died on Fitzmas.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:57 PM
Response to Reply #70
72. There is another post
on a thread on DU:GD where a friend wrote that Bush and Cheney were targets of the on-going investigation. I urged caution, as without question, I can say that Bush is not a target. In the late spring of 2004, I began outlining how the cae would play out. I was wrong on the timeline, but accurate on most every other count.

I think that 2006 will be an important year as far as elections go. I'm less concerned about having an election stolen in '08 than I am about the wrong democrat winning. More, as I read your well-reasoned post, it makes me think more about an essay that I am working on about the need for democrats to exert influence on the local, grass-roots level ..... for a large part of the problem, in my opinion, is that too often democrats are invested in national politics too a degree that is not in line with what people like Jefferson intended. I remember in the 1960s, the redneck racists talked about "state's rights" and "local control" in a manner that left democrats associating those ideals with being simple code words for discrimination. Combined with economic factors that changed the layout of our communities, this resulted in a vacuum .... and the republicans began a stealth campaign to fill those vacuums by building a foundation for their party's extreme right-wing.

Because of the shifts in power in the past 35 years, politics at the national level are no longer where the greatest power rests. I realize that I'm not telling you anything you don't know as well as I do -- I'm thinking out loud .... rambling on, as old men often do. But, in order to protect what we can of a democratic process, we need to think in ways both larger and smaller than Washington. And we have a lot of resources. We can win this struggle. Fitzgerald's work is one important piece in the puzzle.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:19 PM
Response to Reply #72
75. Both of you have brought out some very good points - Old Father Time
will tell us how this plays out. Thank you to both of you for your insight and well grounded opinions.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 09:03 AM
Response to Reply #72
113. Why would Fitz be asking to see PDBs and handwritten notes on same
concerning Wilson (Plame), unless he already had evidence that Bush had been informed about the Wilson problem and had signed off in some way on taking him out? My guess is that Bush scribbled something on the margin of his June 19, 2003 PDB that is incriminating, in light of the subsequent outing of Wilson's wife.

Yes, the President is the target of an active federal investigation. How else can one read this?

Fabulous chess analogy - superb thread - wow, what a great bunch of friends here at DU! Yes was one of my favorites way back before I discovered that what I loved about them was their jazz riffs and classical orchestration. Actually, I still love Yes.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 09:36 AM
Response to Reply #113
114. I am not sure
that there is reason to believe Fitzgerald requested the PDBs. I think Libby's attorneys requested that the prosecution provide them, but that Fitzgerald's answer was that he did not have them. I could be wrong, of course.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:35 PM
Response to Reply #114
134. The request for documents points to the direction the trial is going to
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 03:53 PM by leveymg
take. The request for PDBs and other evidence of what Bush and Cheney actually knew about Wilson indicates Libby's lawyers may be intending to raise the defense that Scooter believed his actions were condoned by "his superiors",and thus hadn't formed mens rea (criminal intent).

This puts Fitz into the position that he will either have indict Bush and Cheney or else argue that they didn't condone Libby's acts pursuant to the outing of Plame and the cover-up. Either way, Fitz will have to pin down the facts of the matter in order to prosecute. That means, in effect, that both the President and Vice President are under active investigation.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:14 PM
Response to Reply #134
138. I think that
Mr. Fitzgerald stated he had not asked for, and does not possess, the PDBs. I am not 100% sure, but close to it. I think that you will find that Mr. Libby's legal team made that request for two reasons: first, because they know there is zero chance of getting them, that they are hoping for grounds for an appeal; and second, they are sending a message to the White House that nothing is sacred in the quest to defend Scooter. I would think that it is safe to say now that Fitzgerald is not looking to involve Bush in any way at all that should be mistaken for including him as a target. The package in question is the WHIG. Dick Cheney is the central figure.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #138
143. I believe they received redacted versions of PDBs.
This from Fitz's letter:

http://rawstory.com/other/pdfs/RawStoryFitzLetter.pdf

In response to our requests, we have received a very discrete amount of material relating to PDBs. We have provided to Mr. Libby and his counsel (or are in the process of providing such documents consistent with the process of a declassification review) copies of any pages in our possession reflecting discussions of Joseph Wilson, Valerie Wilson and/or Wilson's trip to Niger contained in (or written on) copies of the President's Daily Brief (PDB) in the redacted form in which we received them.

It's pretty clear to me that they've opened the door to "what the President knows, and when he knew it." As I mentioned before, Fitz is going to have to know the facts about that area in order to pursue the case, and will either have to indict Bush and Cheney (or designate them as unindicted co-conspiractors) or else argue that Libby was a loose cannon acting on his own.

What's your thought about that?

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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:46 PM
Response to Reply #143
147. Interesting incite leveymg on Libby and his attorney's and where this case
may be going. I like to err on the side of caution but if these PDB's end becoming more of a focal point then I will be more hopeful that * will be indicted. However, in the mean time Fitz's focus is definitely on WHIG but that does not mean he(Fitz) could not have his focus on multiple groups and targets.

Like chess you must be able to see ahead in the game but the hard part is to be able to see ahead involving multiple offenses and defenses that at any time you will have to or never employ.
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Emit Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 04:58 AM
Response to Reply #72
153. local politics is a key factor
My spouse and in-laws, all registered Republicans, stopped participating as much in local Republican party activities in the 80's when they perceived their party being taken over by a bunch of religious fanatics. They regret that decision now.

It's one of the reasons that I am forcing myself to stay involved at the local level in the Democratic party.

I find it very frustrating, however, for many reasons. The biggest concern that I have is that it is very difficult to stay focused on local politics when I see my country in such dire straights with the obvious coup that has occurred, especially when the head members of our local Democratic Party blithely continue on as if it is just politics as usual. Only a very few people in our local party seem clued into some of the bigger issues, like this thread topic you started here, but they don't discuss things candidly at the meetings. It's like they pussy-foot around, following some sort of political etiquette that I am unfamiliar with.

Maybe I'm asking too much from the party -- it does seem obvious that the nuts and bolts of the local party activity, bottom line, is to create a mechanism for getting Democrats elected -- to get out the vote. It's actually very far removed from the national politics that we, especially here at DU, discuss and analyze and fret over. Hence, my frustration again in wanting to be involved in something that can affect immediate change. But, that, IMHO, is part of the point of your comment above -- patience and diligence are in order. Despite my concern of continued stolen elections (and maybe because of), I see no other way to make changes. It's got to be at the local level because I, 'citizen Emit', can not make a difference without being involved at a grassroots level, of which the resulting efforts might eventually bubble up to the top.

Regardless, however, I will not let this deter me from staying involved locally. Maybe someday, by staying involved and connecting with like-minded individuals (and especially if things continue on this disastrous course), our local party leaders will be replaced by others who are more aware, more directed and perhaps, more willing to change the status quo. And maybe I will have played a role in that change.

Now I'm rambling. Sorry. I'm actually very new to politics, and likely do not even know what the heck I'm talking about with these party meetings. I just want things to change.

btw, my spouse is trying to decide whether to change parties, but hasn't made a decision yet. We are both currently working on a local Dem candidate's State Assembly race as precinct leaders, though, trying to up seat a right wing religious fanatic whose step-son lives across the street from us. Yikes. This might be fun. :D
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 08:05 PM
Response to Reply #70
81. mikelewis, I'm somwhere inbetween H2OMan's hypothesis and yours...
My problem is that I believe that one time in America (around Nixon's time) H20's hypothesis of the Chess Game would have been DEAD ON. Fitz would have been working exactly like he said...working the game very skillfully. And, I do believe that Fitzgerald is the best foe the Bushies have had thrown at them...dedicated, determined and as far as we have been able to find...very honest in his principles...dedicated to "TRUTH."

However, having watched these people and seen how they work I have to feel that what you say has equal weight. I've been around since Jack Kennedy and grew up in a family who loved history, so in "modern times" I don't think we've ever seen an Adminsitration like this one run by Bush II. BUT...it was a culmination of work done since Eisenhower where the Right Wing Cold Warriors and their disciples amassed a huge Crime network. Think Tanks, Religious Right and Media are now working as a coordinated team in league with all branches of the Government. I just don't think there's been anything like this awesome power in American History before.

So, I think that my hope is H20's scenario is the one that will prove true. My dark side says yours may be the likely outcome.

QUOTE FROM YOU:

mikelewis:


We might as well sign the petition to pardon them ourselves, what will it matter then. It's usually the case where a minor crime is forgiven in exchange for a conviction of a greater crime. In our current situation, that is now reversed. The President lied about WMD to lead us into war and cut the legs out from under an organization that could have stopped this from happening. He did this by breaking the law and outing a CIA agent. All we have in exchange for that crime is a Knight accused of lying. In 2009, will we even care if Libby's in jail or if Rove is under indictment still awaiting trial? No, we'll be too busy lamenting yet another stolen election and wondering why no one but us noticed.
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American liberal Donating Member (915 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 06:38 PM
Response to Reply #60
71. daaaaaaaaamn... talk about in yo' face! ;-)
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:51 PM
Response to Reply #59
63. The Game Is Only Truly Rigged
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 04:51 PM by Me.
if playing by bogus rules can be maintained and your opponents don't outplay you. It may take time to outmaneuver them. Also that which is not real has a limited time span before the truth, once again, prevails. 2 + 2 always equals 4, even if a crooked accountant tries to convince you otherwise.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 04:59 PM
Response to Reply #63
64. Perhaps the most
valid point, which was implied but not fully expressed on that post, was that there is someone behind the chess board, moving the players, including the king. It is a slight variation on what ML wrote, perhaps, but it raises an interesting point.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 05:19 PM
Response to Reply #64
66. The Idea Of Someone Behind The Chessboard Is Valid
Octafish's threads have taught us nothing if not that. But who's to say there isn't a jiggle going on, on both sides of the board? Things don't have to be visible to prevail. Your "threads" have taught that.
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lala_rawraw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:38 PM
Response to Original message
76. As a chess player I think

Your assessment is straight on. I would add, however, that no single piece is ever isolated as of value in and of itself. Hence one can lose a Queen, but play the middle to crown a pawn during the end game. No doubt a Queen is a valuable asset to have as are the two knights; in fact, I would prefer the two knights to the two bishops -just thinking back on how my father taught me to play without a Queen to begin with, so I did not flip out when I lost her. But that is beside the point.

The real value of any piece is how it can be used in combination with other pieces. The King has no value as you point out, but he can move in combination and if during the end game he can have a few pawns working their way across the board, and then he too can become a strong piece.

But back to your assessment, which I completely agree with. It is not really about who set up the board, but who the opposing player is. Rove is no doubt the opposing player, not Libby or anyone else.

I have a chess simulation of him in profile that I created and he is very much the opposing player, but a bad one really. What struck me as odd is that he is seen as a genius, despite playing the same strategy over and over, using the same pieces in combination over and over, and failing to be imaginative. More importantly, he is an emotional player, a reactive player, not a rational player. As we know, and all strategists should know, chess is a game of logic/reason, not emotion. How then could Rove be seen as a genius and keep winning? This has plagued me for a while until I realized that he is simply playing against a machine, a game boy or something similar, not a real or strategic opponent. In other words, he is playing against himself, no one else. Because of that, all the moves on both sides are known to him and the same strategy is used to win no matter what side the board is seen from.

But, he made a serious and game losing error ... so serious, that he scurried to correct it, reacting emotionally of course and as such, losing the center quite early on, but no one noticed. That single error early on has set the stage for reactive move after reactive move, of which we now see the losing fruit. We may all disagree with what that move may have been, but I have my own opinions on it. We are no where near the end game, although it seems that way because Rove’s side of the board has lost many pieces. We now see the next series of emotional reactions playing out: huddling the pieces close together in order to keep both the King and Queen safe, but these moves are a waste of time and limiting the mobility of the pieces, insulating them in their own turf like sitting ducks. Terrible strategy really and sure to lose. Fitz has got the center, but he is not the opponent Rove is playing against. Fitz is a series of moves and tactics that together have captured the center. The latest volley from team Rove, judge W and his delaying tactics, are a huddle move that will force the other side to give up piece after piece as sacrifice, much like Libby. Stalling tactics do not work if one is losing, only if one is winning to run the clock out. I think the most important series of moves is happening right now, which are building toward the end game. The actual player is becoming visible too while the strategy, the Fitz (if you will) is taking a back seat. Team Rove has not yet realized that they are confusing a strategy with a player and by doing so, have no ability to win this game, none. I am quite serious, there is no simulation I have done with the Rove player using this current game that can prove winnable, even if the Queen were to be sacrificed, which will have to happen and soon.

Now you have got me thinking of writing this up – better – as a column piece. Very cool your thinking is grasshopper
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:45 PM
Response to Reply #76
78. So there you are!
I have been looking forward to reading your opinion of recent events. Yesterday I said that I thought Rove was playing checkers to Fitzgerald's chess. Perhaps we will hear an updated "checkers speech" soon?

A good friend of mine, with a PhD in psychology and a strong interest in childhood development, told me years ago that chess is the best game to teach kids in order to build language skills. He said that a strong vocabularly had the same number of words as a talented chess player had moves. You may be the proof in the pudding.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 08:39 PM
Response to Reply #76
83. From one chess player to another - you hit the nail on the head with this
statement

More importantly, he is an emotional player, a reactive player, not a rational player. As we know, and all strategists should know, chess is a game of logic/reason, not emotion.


looking forward to your next article


Thank you

Peace
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hunter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:50 PM
Response to Reply #83
89. A poker player, not a chess player...
Even if the game goes bad and they shoot their way out of it, they still lose. Maybe they lose more, because there will be no place to run, no place to hide.

"When governments fear the people, there is liberty. When the people fear the government, there is tyranny. - Thomas Jefferson.

Fear the people, George W. Bush.

Fear the people, Dick Cheney.

Fear the people Condoleezza Rice.

You serve the people. We do not serve you.
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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 06:44 AM
Response to Reply #89
106. Jefferson is one of my favorites, in fact I have been fantasizing
lately about re-visiting his memorial in DC, thanks for the quote.:patriot:
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im10ashus Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:24 PM
Response to Reply #76
87. As a pseudo-chess player, I am truly fascinated by this thread.
One can lose the queen and still win the game. But your real advantage is having the opponent on constant defense. You can keep a king on the run with just a few pawns.

Each move of chess means there's one less move to be made.
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Wind Dancer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:41 PM
Response to Original message
77. Encouraging article from a former prosecutor - "Rove v. Fitzgerald"
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 07:44 PM by FrustratedDemInNC
When Two Worlds Collide
Rove v. Fitzgerald

For Karl Rove, no news from the Plame case -- Special Counsel Patrick Fitzgerald's grand jury investigation into the outing of Valerie Plame Wilson's identity as a CIA agent -- is definitely not good news. Seismic activity is notoriously silent, so we may not be hearing any rumblings at the moment. But speaking as a former prosecutor, I believe it highly likely that, just below the surface, the worlds of Karl Rove and Special Prosecutor Patrick Fitzgerald, shifting like tectonic plates, are about to collide. As was true with Vice President Cheney's top aide, Lewis "Scooter" Libby, charged with obstruction of justice and lying to a federal agent as well as to the grand jury, Rove might not be charged with the leak itself. I am confident, however, that Rove will not leave this party empty-handed. He will, at the very least, almost certainly be charged with making false statements to an FBI agent. Here's why.

For starters, the evidence that Rove deliberately lied to the FBI is overwhelming.

-snip-

Unlike Rove's former adversaries in the political world, however, Fitzgerald has both the time and investigative resources. When Fitzgerald was appointed special prosecutor, all the known facts on the outing of Valerie Wilson indicated that government officials had broken the rules, if not the law. It's no surprise then that Fitzgerald has pursued the matter vigorously; nor should it be a surprise that Rove's statement to the FBI on October 8 would have raised some obvious red flags and caused Fitzgerald to become skeptical. Rove deliberately omitted key information about conversations with reporters that he could not possibly have forgotten; he claimed to have heard classified government information only from a reporter -- despite the fact that he himself was one of the highest government officials in the nation; and then he admitted that he had no qualms about enlisting surrogates to betray government employees in order to achieve political gain.



Rove's statement raised more questions than answers. It also opened a window into the world of a President's key adviser who never left campaign mode and who had never before been tripped up, no matter what he did. Such a man would be quite unprepared for an investigator like Fitzgerald who operates under a very different timetable and in a world ordered by radically different rules.

Now that Rove's statement has been shown to be so obviously false, it would be most surprising if when his world and Fitzgerald's collide, the result isn't a political earthquake. The moment an earthquake arrives remains impossible to predict, but it would be surprising if, in the CIA leak case, the impact of a Rove indictment did not cause massive aftershocks.

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?SectionID=72&ItemID=9650








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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 07:52 PM
Response to Reply #77
79. Great article!
Thank you for linking that for us. I think that we are going to enjoy 2006, from a Plame point of view.
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KoKo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 08:58 PM
Response to Reply #77
84. wander around, undirected, until they finally curl up in America's living
Edited on Sat Feb-04-06 09:02 PM by KoKo01
rooms like so many mysterious, uninvited guests.

(What a chilling and fascinating observation about how Rove and his Machine have operated!) FROM THE ARTICLE:
-----------------------------
In the world of campaign politics that Rove has so long inhabited, smears and personal attacks are designed to seem as if they were spontaneously generated. They can then wander around, undirected, until they finally curl up in America's living rooms like so many mysterious, uninvited guests. These intruders may be rude and destructive, but no one is supposed to be able to get rid of them, in part because no one is supposed to be able to sort out or pinpoint how they got there in the first place. Thus, although Karl Rove has lurked in the background of an unprecedented number of whisper and smear campaigns -- that, for instance, John McCain had an illegitimate child (a rumor spread during the Republican primaries that preceded the 2000 election), or that former Texas Governor Ann Richards was a lesbian (a persistent rumor that was spread during Bush's Texas gubernatorial campaign) -- he has never been held accountable. And that is a state of affairs to which Rove became accustomed.


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stop the bleeding Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:17 PM
Response to Reply #77
86. Between this article, lala's post on #76 and H2O's analogy - Rove is Toast



Despite his measured words, Fitzgerald revealed much about his worldview in the press conference in which he announced Libby's indictment. He said that the investigation was serious because the disclosure of classified information about a CIA officer could jeopardize national security. But equally serious -- and he repeated this more than once -- was the betrayal of government employees by their own officials. Anyone who has worked as a federal prosecutor for two decades, as has Fitzgerald, has also worked closely, often late and long hours, with law enforcement agents, so it is not surprising perhaps that when asked about the damage caused by the leak, Fitzgerald offered the following:



"I can say that for the people who work at the CIA and work at other places, they have to expect that when they do their jobs that classified information will be protected. And they have to expect that when they do their job, that information about whether or not they are affiliated with the CIA will be protected. And they run a risk when they work for the CIA that something bad could happen to them, but they have to make sure that they don't run the risk that something bad is going to happen to them from something done by their own fellow employees."


~snip~


Rove's statement raised more questions than answers. It also opened a window into the world of a President's key adviser who never left campaign mode and who had never before been tripped up, no matter what he did. Such a man would be quite unprepared for an investigator like Fitzgerald who operates under a very different timetable and in a world ordered by radically different rules.



Now that Rove's statement has been shown to be so obviously false, it would be most surprising if when his world and Fitzgerald's collide, the result isn't a political earthquake. The moment an earthquake arrives remains impossible to predict, but it would be surprising if, in the CIA leak case, the impact of a Rove indictment did not cause massive aftershocks.




Elizabeth de la Vega is a former federal prosecutor with more than 20 years of experience. During her tenure, she was a member of the Organized Crime Strike Force and Chief of the San Jose Branch of the U.S. Attorney's Office for the Northern District of California. Her pieces have appeared in the Nation Magazine, the Los Angeles Times, and Salon. She writes regularly for Tomdispatch.



Thank you for this wonderful article I like the author's credential's to boot :toast::toast:






:rofl::popcorn::rofl::popcorn::rofl::popcorn::rofl::popcorn:



:rofl::popcorn::rofl::popcorn::rofl::popcorn::rofl::popcorn::rofl::popcorn:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:51 PM
Response to Reply #86
90. Elizabeth de la Vega
ia one of a small group of people that I consider to be among the smartest in the country. When she talks, I always listen. Closely.
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Straight Shooter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 08:39 PM
Response to Original message
82. This thread illuminates with crystal clarity why I am addicted to DU.
Thank you to everyone who contributed to this superb analogy and its variances. :thumbsup:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #82
92. Yeah ....
this thread is what I like best about DU.
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 10:36 PM
Response to Reply #92
94. To me, the Plame thread is DU
And I guess I'll stick around until the end game (checkmate).

Three years and I still feel that the Plame outing and damage caused is Bush's achilles heel.
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acmavm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 11:41 AM
Response to Reply #94
123. Plame threads bring out the best and the brightest on DU. And the
strategy sessions, well what can I say. I bet KKKarl is green with envy when he reads these threads and sees his limitations.

I love Plame threads.
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burythehatchet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:09 PM
Response to Original message
85. you give me hope when all seems lost
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 09:53 PM
Response to Reply #85
91. Our side is ahead now.
Keep that in mind. I would not say that if it were not so. We are ahead.
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 10:14 PM
Response to Reply #91
93. thank you for those words
It is hard to see it, that we are ahead.

But reading your optimistic words, somehow I feel it right now.
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Mr_Spock Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Feb-04-06 11:44 PM
Response to Original message
102. OMG - I saw "Your Move" and I instantly thought of Yes and chess
I guessed what the post might be about instantly, then I figured I was wrong and didn't want to be dissapointed so I didn't click on it 'till I saw it on the greatest page.

Very good post - as a chess player and Yes fan, this post hits close to home & my way of thinking. I'm glad that there are people on this planet who can organize their thoughts and type them up better than I can.
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Wilms Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:32 AM
Response to Original message
103. .
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ClayZ Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:52 AM
Response to Original message
105. Thank you, teachers!
“We are educated by others... and this cultivation, mingling with our innate disposition, is the soil in which our desires, passions, and motives grow” (Mary Shelley)
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DemReadingDU Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 07:51 AM
Response to Original message
108. Chess game
Interesting analysis, and you are right on!

K&R
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madokie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 08:16 AM
Response to Original message
109. Thanks for putting it in a context so easy to understand
What a great way in the reading of this post, to start the day.
:yourock:


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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 08:28 AM
Response to Reply #109
111. Thank you .
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sellitman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 09:59 AM
Response to Original message
115. Gil Scott Heron said it best.....
The Revolution Will Not Be Televised

You will not be able to stay home, brother.
You will not be able to plug in, turn on and cop out.
You will not be able to lose yourself on skag and skip,
Skip out for beer during commercials,
Because the revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be televised.
The revolution will not be brought to you by Xerox
In 4 parts without commercial interruptions.
The revolution will not show you pictures of Nixon
blowing a bugle and leading a charge by John
Mitchell, General Abrams and Spiro Agnew to eat
hog maws confiscated from a Harlem sanctuary.
The revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be brought to you by the
Schaefer Award Theatre and will not star Natalie
Woods and Steve McQueen or Bullwinkle and Julia.
The revolution will not give your mouth sex appeal.
The revolution will not get rid of the nubs.
The revolution will not make you look five pounds
thinner, because the revolution will not be televised, Brother.

There will be no pictures of you and Willie May
pushing that shopping cart down the block on the dead run,
or trying to slide that color television into a stolen ambulance.
NBC will not be able predict the winner at 8:32
or report from 29 districts.
The revolution will not be televised.

There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of pigs shooting down
brothers in the instant replay.
There will be no pictures of Whitney Young being
run out of Harlem on a rail with a brand new process.
There will be no slow motion or still life of Roy
Wilkens strolling through Watts in a Red, Black and
Green liberation jumpsuit that he had been saving
For just the proper occasion.

Green Acres, The Beverly Hillbillies, and Hooterville
Junction will no longer be so damned relevant, and
women will not care if Dick finally gets down with
Jane on Search for Tomorrow because Black people
will be in the street looking for a brighter day.
The revolution will not be televised.

There will be no highlights on the eleven o'clock
news and no pictures of hairy armed women
liberationists and Jackie Onassis blowing her nose.
The theme song will not be written by Jim Webb,
Francis Scott Key, nor sung by Glen Campbell, Tom
Jones, Johnny Cash, Englebert Humperdink, or the Rare Earth.
The revolution will not be televised.

The revolution will not be right back after a message
bbout a white tornado, white lightning, or white people.
You will not have to worry about a dove in your
bedroom, a tiger in your tank, or the giant in your toilet bowl.
The revolution will not go better with Coke.
The revolution will not fight the germs that may cause bad breath.
The revolution will put you in the driver's seat.

The revolution will not be televised, will not be televised,
will not be televised, will not be televised.
The revolution will be no re-run brothers;
The revolution will be live.
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splat@14 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:34 AM
Response to Original message
120. Good one waterman! Chris Squire rules! n/t
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Burke888 Donating Member (17 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:09 PM
Response to Original message
136. I really do not understand
Wow that was pretty long and drawn out. Perhaps we could re-forty our flanks and prepare for the worst that way?
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zippy890 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:12 PM
Response to Reply #136
137. little too hard for you to understand?
bookmark it and read it later, slower maybe.

our flanks are just fine, thanks
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mzmolly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:22 PM
Response to Original message
140. Interesting analogy.
Looking forward to fitz declaring "checkmate."

Further, I am hoping the game heats up before the 06 house/sentate elections. :)
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kohodog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:33 PM
Response to Reply #140
142. Hey, If Fitz couldn't be sure Libby knew Plame was a NOC,
You can be sure He knows that Cheney knew her status. The redacted pages in Judge Tatel's ruling on the Miller/Cooper suit that have been released (and not all of them have) clearly state that she was a NOC. It certainly appears that Fitzgerald is working his way up and essentially the only two above Libby are Bush and Cheney. The deleted emails may indicate that both were involved, but we'll have to wait and see if he can pry them loose.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:54 PM
Response to Reply #142
144. Right.
He needs to be able to prove what he knows to a jury, beyond any reasonable doubt that defense attorneys might try to create. Mr. Fitzgerald is, in many ways, much like the famous DA Vince Bugliosi: he wants to prove his cases beyond reasonable doubt, to the point of removing even the shadow of a doubt.

DUers will have a good time this spring and summer.
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Swamp Rat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 01:04 AM
Response to Reply #144
150. yes
:)


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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 11:00 PM
Response to Original message
148. Sorry to join this thread so late, looks like one of DU's best!
Fitz is definitely in control of the game. I was wondering what you think of one of the key players in the Libby trial, Judge Reggie Walton. So far, the only post on this thread that mentioned him was lala_rawraw's excellent post. Would you agree that Walton is one of the pieces Rove controls? Just how powerful a piece is this man?
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 06:27 AM
Response to Reply #148
154. While people are correct
to view him as a sometimes rigid conservative, he will not be a serious problem. Any decision he makes during the trial can be challenged by Fitzgerald during the trial. More, I think that Libby's attorneys are going to have a deal made by next year. Libby going to trial would be an expensive gamble.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 07:02 AM
Response to Reply #154
156. Good morning, H2O Man
We were interrupted by the server upgrade last night. Looking forward to hearing your response to my last post, above, regarding the significance of the PDBs.

By the way, I agree that Cheney is the primary target, not Bush. I believe that Dubya is at risk, however.

Hope you're enjoying your :donut:
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 07:45 AM
Response to Reply #156
157. I'm not going to be around much
this morning, and so I'll try to answer that briefly before my driver becomes impatient .... I think that the area that Fitzgerald has looked closely at that involves information connected to the PDBs is from the African trip. I do not want to sound like I think Bush is not responsible for what has gone on in the administration that he in theory heads. But I believe that what the information that will be made public will show is that he is not in as much control as the corporate media pretends. That is not to say that he is a mere puppet; he's not. He is a cruel, vicious snake who loves power and control. But the "person" playing chess, the one(s) behind the board, do not leave the most important things to George. The shadow government, which really has been in place for longer than people are aware, worked through the WHIG. Those on the plane to Africa with George, and those who were running things at the White House when George was in Africa, were in control. They were the machine that uncovered Plame, and that was brought in to cover the scandal. That's where this information comes to play.

Again, I could be wrong.
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 03:51 PM
Response to Reply #157
160. Thanks for being my sparring partner yesterday.
I collected my thoughts this morning and posted them here and then over at DKos, where my article went to the top of the Recommended list this afternoon. http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/2/6/12248/27290

It is so essential to have good people to bounce ideas off of. Thanks again.

I still owe you a cold one.:beer:
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leveymg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 06:57 AM
Response to Reply #148
155. Bob - Look at Reggie's bio at Wiki and DC Circuit Court.
Edited on Mon Feb-06-06 07:11 AM by leveymg
He's definitely on Bush's side of the board, as he's received his promotions from Bush 41 and 43. But, he has limited mobility with what he can do with this case beyond tactical delay and rulings that may justifiably favor the defendant. So, I'd say he's a pawn.
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robertpaulsen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 03:32 PM
Response to Reply #155
159. Good advice. Yeah, he's a real tool of a pawn.
Reggie Walton
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Jump to: navigation, search
Judge Reggie B. Walton U.S. District Judge for the District of Columbia
Enlarge
Judge Reggie B. Walton U.S. District Judge for the District of Columbia

Reggie B. Walton is a United States District Judge for the District of Columbia. Walton served as an Associate Judge of the Superior Court of the District of Columbia from 1981 to 1989 and 1991 to 2001.

Walton is the judge presiding over the criminal case of the vice president's former chief of staff, Scooter Libby, he has dismissed one of FBI whistle-blower Sibel Edmonds' lawsuits, after "sitting on the case with no activity for almost two years," <1> and is "randomly" presiding over her other suit as well.

For some strange reason his Financial Disclosure Report for 2003 is completely redacted.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reggie_Walton

I just hope he doesn't overrule the jury and give Libby a slap on the wrist. But it's also possible that in order to avoid Cheney swearing on a Bible, this case may not come to court. But if it does, Walton is certainly no Sirica, which truly does make this worse than Watergate.
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Me. Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:05 AM
Response to Original message
158. A Kick
for Chicago based prosecutors
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