How To Get Europeans To Support Attacking Iran- Why Not Run A Cartoon

[KittyWampus]

in a Neo-Liberal, rightwing paper that will clearly inflame Muslims in Europe and around the world. And then, when you get the desired reaction claim "Free Speech" when the decision to run the cartoon is scrutinized.

Keep in mind, cartoons depicting Jews were part of the tactics used in Europe before WW2.

Yes indeed, produce the desired reactions on both the Left and the Right.

The Left will support your right to free speech and be more inclined to condemn the offended Muslims.

The Right will have their mistrust and hatred of Muslims confirmed and amplified.

[Emendator]

1. Wrong

Are people, Muslims included, not the possessors of their own minds, emotions, and actions? Or are they a bunch of slaves to their passions, lashing out childishly at any insignificant slight?

There is something seriously wrong with a culture that cannot control itself, where people's lives and entire countries are threatened over a satirical comic.

At Pope John Paul II's funeral, millions of people descended upon Rome and there weren't any problems. Those trying to remove Yassir Arafat's coffin from its helicopter in order to bury it had to fire machine guns into the air in order to disburse the charging mobs. Every year at the Hajj in Mecca people lose control of themselves, causing hundreds and sometimes thousands to die.

Muslims are shooting themselves in the foot over this. This inappropriate anger is especially hypocritical considering the amount of hate that is in the Middle Eastern media and the manner in which non-Muslims minorities are treated.

The law is meant to protect the safety of people, not to protect ideas.

[BillZBubb]

6. So, the US blows up Iraq over a comic "dictator"

But it is the Muslims who are "slaves to thier passions"????

"There is something seriously wrong with a culture that cannot control itself..." Yep, you got that right. But we had better look in the mirror before we start throwing stones.

You think the Muslims don't have a beef about how many of them are treated in the West Bank? Or in Iraq? They've got as much to be bitter about that as we do in their treatment of non-Muslim minorities.

Different cultures have different mores. In the US, police had to break up riots that include arson, looting, physical assualts etc OVER THE OUTCOME OF A SPORTS EVENT. It happens all the time. So go ahead, keep feeling smugly superior.

Your post is bullshit.

[WildEyedLiberal]

21. What does any of that have to do with anything?

Bush has nothing to do with the cartoon scandal. He is a red herring.

For anyone to insist that it is "okay" for Islamic religious fanatics to be violent and reactionary because Bush sucks is complete bollocks. You either condemn fanaticism - no matter the perpetrator - or you don't. Why are so many here so eager to condemn Bush and Christian fundamentalists but give a pass to Islamic extremists?

[BillZBubb]

24. Wrong!

Bush has everything to do with what is going on. If you are too naive to understand that, there just isn't much hope for you.

The Muslim world is a tinderbox right now because of Bush and his enablers. Their whole culture feels pushed around and stepped on. It won't take much of a match to set off a conflagration. I'm not giving a pass to anyone, but I do understand the situation. You clearly do not.

My original post attacked the blatant bullshit in the initial post. Muslims aren't any more out of control than any other society. Sadly, many so called "liberals" have been co-opted by the right wing propaganda--apparently you included.

We have violent riots after sports games that are just as bad as the mob that burned the embassy in Damascus. We have a government that destroys lives and property around the world based on the whims of a cretin. A majority of our population always supports it. To me the latter point is more worthy of condemnation than the former. Emotional people do stupid things on occasion in all cultures. But, murderous attacks like Iraq aren't done in the heat of the moment.

The people responsible in Syria should be brought to justice through the Syrian legal system. The so-called liberals here should quit being so emotionally manipulated. You ought to be ashamed.

[WildEyedLiberal]

26. You ought to stop personally attacking people who don't agree with you

The only "shameful" thing I see here is your willingness to paint me as clueless, naive, shameful, and stupid because I don't kneejerk blame Bush for every ill of the world.

You're only making yourself look like a caricature when you compare sporting events to Muslim riots. Did you know that in Europe people get killed after soccer games? Oops, that's probably Bush's fault too. Or, actually, none of it has shit to do with Bush.

How, pray, do you explain extremist Muslim violence prior to the invastion of Iraq? Prior to Bush's inauguration? YOU are the only one being emotionally manipulated - your hatred of Bush blinds you to anything else. Your insistence upon attacking anyone who does not agree with you is unfortunate but not unexpected. Have a nice day.

[rman]

13. Is "muslim culture" threatening entire countries?

Or is a radical minority doing the threatening?

It's like saying "US culture" cannot control itself, because of the illegal wars started by the (arguably undemocratic) US regime.

Most muslim nations aren't exactly democratic either, and religious fundamentalist groups (aka radical minorities) there do hold a lot of power.

[Emendator]

20. Yep

Yeah, Muslim culture is a big problem as it stiffles the individual, creativity, and, as we are seeing in this cartoon controversy, freedom of thought. Before the arrival of Islam, Persia, Egypt, Mesopotamia, and the cultures of the Middle East has always been more advanced than the West. Whatever brief Golden Age there was, it was snuffed out as the religious conservatives came to dominate.

While the US and the West in general has not always treated the Muslim world very well, it's not true to claim that the West has held the Middle East back. The Pacific Rim countries were also oppressed yet they have managed to modernize and build themselves up.

Sure, as another poster said, other culture have different mores. But that doesn't mean we have to accept those mores. We don't have the right to bomb their countries, but we do have the right to stand up for the things that we do get right - like defend freedom of speech and expression - no matter what it is.

[rman]

23. You are describing islamic fundamentalism

Which is anything but mainstream in muslim culture.
Even though in one form or another it is state-religion in many muslim nations. But that's because those nations are not democratic.

[Emendator]

28. I used to believe that

the problem was just the fundamentalists, until I read the Koran for myself. This religion is unlike any other in terms of what it says. Fortunately, most Muslims do not understand their religion and are just trying to lead normal lives.

As you read, if you keep a running count of the ratio of bad to good, you will see that it leans heavily toward the good. Try the Skeptics Annotated Koran, as it provides an interesting running commentary in the margins. Ali Sina, an ex-Muslim, also has a good website. Sometimes he's a little abrasive, but he deals with this stuff all the time. The only thing I don't like about him is that he thinks, or at least used to think, that invading Iraq would do some good.

http://www.skepticsannotatedbible.com/quran/index.html

http://www.faithfreedom.org/

[Emendator]

29. oops

I mean the ratio tilts towards the bad. My bad. :)

[Henny Penny]

18. Right!

"Are people, Muslims included, not the possessors of their own minds, emotions, and actions?"

Of course they are! But every culture has its extremists. Do you suggest that the fundie nutters we have in our culture are representative???

This cartoon was originally run 4 months ago!!!! And this row is being whipped up now so as we can get to see lots of footage of muslim extremists in the run up to any attack on Iran.

Just mho of course....

[liberal N proud]

2. Anything is possible with the bu$h cabal!

If they allowed 9/11 or in any way orchestrated it, then they would not stop at anything and running a cartoon would be a simple act for them.
:tinfoilhat:

[Taxloss]

3. Ah, I was wondering when the "Bush did it" theories would arrive.

[BillZBubb]

7. Yeah, those darn "Blame Amerca First" liberals had to show up.

Of course, guys like you know Bush would never do anything dishonest or deceptive.

[Taxloss]

8. Europe is leading the effort to disarm Iran.

So there goes that theory.

[KittyWampus]

27. Europe Isn't A Monolith & Corporate Interests Don't Identify As Nationals

there are certainly Businessmen and Politicians and Extremists in Europe who are keen on joining forces with Imperialism.

There's a strong Far Right anti-Muslim current in Europe. In Germany, Austria, Holland and France just as a start.

Xenophobic and anti-Muslim actually.

I'm afraid your view of European politics is myopic and incomplete.

[Taxloss]

30. Uh ... All European IAEA states back referring Iran to the UN security

council. As do Russia and China. This really is a global effort, not just the US.

PS, I'm European. I live there. Here, I mean.

[KittyWampus]

9. Are you suggesting that Newspapers & Politicians don't manipulate

popular opinion? And that they haven't done so consistently throughout history?

Remember the Maine?

And your attempt to portray my opening post as "Bush did it" is an erroneous
reading of the intent, simplifying it's meaning to try and open it up to ridicule.

[Taxloss]

11. I'm suggesting that it's a stretch to suggest that

The Bush administration influenced the editorial policy of a Danish newspaper in order to get Europeans to support an attack on Iran.

Europeans don't support an attack on Iran and haven't changed their views as a result of this cartoon furore. But they do support the tough diplomatic effort to prevent Iran developing a nuclear weapon. European governments are leading that effort.

[Ksec]

4. I doubt anything will sway Europeon rejection of the Iraq war

If anything will turn them against Islam it will be the riots or the terrorist bombings.

Now I know the terrorists have nothing to do with legitimate Islam but its going to be up to them to rid themselves of the extremist form of their religion/ The terrorists are reading from the same books theyre reading from. One sees the extremist view. The other sees a more moderate veiw. The only ones who can change the extremists are the moderate Muslims.

It sure as Hell wont be up to us meddling in their affairs. Theyll never stand for that and I believe most Europeans understand that.

Its up to Islam to control their own. When we get involved it looks like another Crusade .

[genie_weenie]

5. When

will Islam control it's own? This whole episode has just been fodder for many Islamic NAtions to turn their peoples attention away from the crushing problems at home and focus on a "percieved" enemy, in this case those evil Infidel Danes and the Blasphemy!

[KittyWampus]

12. And resultant violence helps turn public sentiment in Europe against

Muslims in general because of the actions of a few extremists.

It's a symbiotic relationship, it seems. Between the extremists of both sides and the politicians and businessmen who profit from fomenting violence amongst them.

[genie_weenie]

14. Great Post

Exactly my point, governments use these flimsy things (an insult to our National Honor, or REligion or Womenhood) and then the next minute they are marching their young men off to secure Democracy or Liberty or Islam or Chrisitanity or whatever. I've been trying to get this through in another post...

Alas...

[rman]

17. that's a keeper -

(slightly modified)

"A symbiotic relationship between extremists on both sides, and politicians and businessmen who profit from fomenting violence between them."

[KittyWampus]

10. I am referring to Iran and the need to get Europe on board for upcoming

attacks.

Not Iraq.

And there are very potent anti-Muslim currents in Europe, like it or not.

The US has a lot of issues, but we are actually a pretty damned diverse population and tolerant compared to many other countries.

[rman]

15. Good points, but

For the sake of argument, imagine religious fundamentalists in the US have a lot of power - much more then they already do (after all they already do have the pResident on their side). Imagine they have control over the police and the army (as is the case in Iran).

Then would it not be quite hard - if not near impossible - for Americans to "rid" themselves of those extremists?

[Rocknrule]

16. It would be like the South Park movie come to life

A bloody war is started by nothing more than some offensive humor

[rman]

19. Art imitates life

I would rather not like to see that SP movie come to life...

But it is known that humor can be offensive, and once someone is offended one thing can lead to another. There are no guarantees but if anyone would want war, this one way to start it.
I'm not defending it, just pointing out how things work, both on small and large scale.

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[WinkyDink]

25. Muslims can choose NOT to be "inflamed".

[KittyWampus]

32. True, but we should all be entitled to the right to protest when someone

acts to provoke us.

Not condoning setting buildings on fire. At all. But not all those who find the cartoons provocative have moved to overt acts of violence.

[Karenina]

35. Yes THEY should behave

as we believe WE would... :eyes: THEY are a monolith as are "WE."

WON'T YOU GET IT???? Those incited to riot are NOT a majority of the Muslim population. But it works GREAT for TV. PULL BACK THE CURTAIN and you'll likely find a member of the Muslim Brotherhood with DECADES LONG CIA contact.

[BelgianMadCow]

31. You're dead on, I'm afraid... on edit : K &R!

I have had a sick feeling about this.

[KittyWampus]

34. From LBN=Danish Paper Rejected Jesus Cartoons

Danish paper rejected Jesus cartoons


Edited on Mon Feb-06-06 02:00 PM by meganmonkey


Jyllands-Posten, the Danish newspaper that first published the cartoons of the prophet Muhammad that have caused a storm of protest throughout the Islamic world, refused to run drawings lampooning Jesus Christ, it has emerged today.
The Danish daily turned down the cartoons of Christ three years ago, on the grounds that they could be offensive to readers and were not funny.

In April 2003, Danish illustrator Christoffer Zieler submitted a series of unsolicited cartoons dealing with the resurrection of Christ to Jyllands-Posten.


Zieler received an email back from the paper's Sunday editor, Jens Kaiser, which said: "I don't think Jyllands-Posten's readers will enjoy the drawings. As a matter of fact, I think that they will provoke an outcry. Therefore, I will not use them."

[Stockholm]

33. To late

its already being done...