Crap, what do I say to my 4 yr old daughter?

[electron_blue]

She was recently watching TV and saw an ad for the Army. She breathlessly turned to me and said "Mom, if I give my life, if I save the world, they will give me a superhero watch!". This stunned me, I felt like I was kicked in the stomach. Where do I even start with this?

And, yes, I know first step is to keep her away from TV. I don't have it at home, this was somewhere else. Obviously, I can't shelter her from this forever.

Any bright ideas for how to explain about military recruitment techniques to children? Esp from other parents who have btdt?

[eyesroll]

1. Find a commercial that makes an obviously crappy toy look REALLY COOL.

It's better if it happens organically -- she sees the talking/flying/spinning/etc. toy and asks for it, and when you show it to her in the toy store, it does none of those.

I think at her age, this is less about military recruitment (which she's too young to understand), more about how commercials are designed to make everything look super cool (which she's also too young to understand at first, but it's an easier lesson).

Good luck.

[punpirate]

2. That's a tough one, especially...

... since the concepts are difficult for a four-year-old. You would have to be able to get her to understand the concept of "giving my life" before any other question from you has meaning. But, you might approach it this way and let her ponder: "Do you think your life for a superhero watch is a fair trade?"

Good luck with it.

[sandnsea]

3. Probably happen naturally

Be sure to buy her pure junk that she saw on tv and just had to have. That way she'll learn by herself that it's a lie box.

[neoblues]

11. Record and save the "ad" too...

When she's disillusioned with the toy, ask her how she liked it... upon an expression of disappointment... show her the ad again and discuss.

[bettyellen]

4. maybe use it as a chance to teach her about your own heros,

different sorts of heroism, and perhaps contrast that with the simplistic view of heroism that is tied in with violence.
maybe explore different ideas of what it means to be strong, or "super", or to do the right thing.
deflate the myths.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

5. I say leave it alone right now. She's Four. Let Her Think Everything's

wonderful. No harm in that. As she gets older and mature enough to actually comprehend any of these subjects, then you can approach her with your views and she can digest them more readily.

Right now she's four. I'm not sure there's really any need for concern right now.

[Toucano]

36. Ding! Ding! Ding!

Correct answer!

Don't worry so much. She'll be fine.

[Nay]

37. Also, she has no concept of life or death, so you can't really

discuss that rationally with her yet. I would just say something like: Lots of the stuff you see on TV is not as cool in real life as it looks like on the ad.

[elehhhhna]

6. Teaching her that commercials are, essentially, lies

is important.

Yesterday there was a thread about a 9 y/o who said he'd give his life (theoretically) to end the life of a much-hated person*. Lots of tears and "what a perceptive child" back patting, etc.

The first thing I thought was "suicide bomber". I find it appalling that American children, at such young ages, have been already indoctrinated with the "I'd
give my life" for certain political results. It becomes easier to understand the whole s.bomber mentality. Imagine being encouraged to think so, from a young age...

[boobooday]

7. I wish I knew

I have an 18 year old son who is being pursued night and day. He didn't post such good grades in high school, and now he's finding out the working world is harsh.

I'm doing the best I can, but I really fear that they will somehow convince him!

[CTyankee]

17. DO NOT give up on him!

My son wanted to be a rock star. He did just about everything to screw up and seemed to have no future. Military service might have been his next stop. Then, a light bulb went off (helped enormously by marrying a very wonderful young woman who set him straight). He went back to school, graduating from an Ivy League university. Then he went to law school. Now he works for the D.A. in Brooklyn, NY.

Never give up. Just keep on believing.

[demigoddess]

23. military life is a good life, spent most of my life in it. but get him to

consider one of the non combat type units and ask him to wait til after this stupid war is over so that he will be more likely to be able to actually serve in the non combat capacity. the military has medical units, firefighter units, plane repair(my dad was a crew chief) communications, data and computer units that have nothing to do with war. The Coast Guard is also a good service.

[boobooday]

26. Both my brothers served

One was career Navy, one was Army (to put himself through college). My first husband was Air Force. It was just what people from my small town did. Seven years ago I would have thought it was a good idea -- and how wrong I would have been.

I told him there was nothing wrong with military service, but he should at least wait until we had a commander in chief who wasn't delusional.

I won't give up. Of course, he wants to be a rock star too. :-)

[rman]

8. first explain the concept of death

(not that i'd know how to do that to a 4 year old)
just trying to break it down a bit.

give your life = death.

the super hero watch is no good to her when she'd dead.

the military is trying to con her.

don't trust the military and don't trust the government.

[mzmolly]

9. I'd start with "commercialism" in general?

Yikes!

[CornField]

10. Let her watch the Barbie commercials -- then buy her one

There was one in particular for "Olympic Barbie" or "Gymnast Barbie" that my daughter saw. Barbie was all over the television, swinging on the rings, doing splits on the floor mat, etc. She had to have the doll even after I tried to explain that it didn't really do the things showed in the commercial. "But Mom! It's on TV!" Long story short, we bought the doll and, of course, Barbie just sat their with her too long neck and plastic boobs.

That was the last time I ever had to explain that the box doesn't always represent what's inside or that advertising can be misleading.

[neoblues]

12. See if you can make it plain that her "life" is so much more...

more than any superhero watch, more than any thousand superhero watches... she'll be around for a long time, plenty of time for lots of different watches.

[jbnow]

13. That's easier then explaining war itself.

Things through the eyes of kids really shifts our perspective, A good thing.

This is just what came to mind about what I'd have said to my kids (though I don't know what the ad said). I'd tell them advertisements are to sell things so they always try to make them sound really good even when it isn't.

I'd talk about how real war is nothing like what we might see with cartoons and super heroes. People can get really, really hurt and they can't get back up and get fixed (or whatever level they'd understand it on) Just the difference between what is pretend and what is real.

Again at there level I might say some wars are needed when there is no other way and it's important, but almost always war is the wrong thing. We need soldiers to be ready but when they are a soldier they have to go to the war and fight even if isn't a war we should have or one that will help the world.

That in real life super heroes are people who can help there not be wars, that can try to understand each other and help people to understand. Real super heroes are ones that try to help each other and want to share peace and glad things (and so on) They want to save lives, makes lives better.

Then I might bring up kid style choices (if you want something someone else has is it better to beat them up and hurt them to take it or maybe to talk to them and see if they would;d share it with you if you shared with them or whatever)

I'd talk about some real super heroes and why they are (whoever yours might be...and there might be kids books about them to read to her) And then I'd tell her what kind of super hero traits you see in her already (like when she is nice to someone who is sad)

You get the idea. Don't know if any of it applies. My kids are grown now...but 4 is an age I have never forgotten. I love 4 and I still see my 4 year olds in their grown up faces. I remember having to deal with complex issues in the face of their wise innocence.

[Skidmore]

14. A friend of mine told me recently that kiddy military ads were shown

at Chucky Cheese.

[Warren DeMontague]

15. Despite declining enlistment numbers, they probably can't take her

for at least another decade.

I would give her some time to figure stuff out and not worry about it. When I was a kid my favorite toys were little army men. I grew up just fine into a pacifist hippie - best thing you can do is not fight it or freak out, then it'll gain the lure of the 'forbidden'.

She's four. Don't sweat it.

[Harper_is_Bush]

16. You want to try and explain it to her now?

I wouldn't draw attention to it. It's a pretty huge subject, very mature and somewhat deep. She's just reacted in a literal way to something she saw on TV, no need to make it an issue. She's no doubt forgotten it already.

[Angry Girl]

20. I disagree. Information is power

The reaction she had was very profound. You really want her with that concept in her head? Her best defense is knowledge.

[Harper_is_Bush]

25. This is a four year old we're talking about here.

You think it's important that she not think that she might get a "superhero watch" if she "saves the world"?

What should her dad say?

"No honey, you won't get a superhero watch. In fact...you might not be saving the world. You might be sent off on an uneccessary war and might even get killed and be dead. Do you know what being dead is honey?"

[Angry Girl]

41. Especially with a 4-year-old! They're not stumps.

Just like you were somehow indoctrinated with the concept that 4-year-olds are unable to understand complex concepts, the same happens to all of us, at every age and in every sphere.

But 4-year-olds have minds like funnels, taking everything in, without framework for analysis. Why do you think the military is running ads aimed at such young kids?

In any case, it's been shown that 4-year-olds understand the concept of lying. I don't see what's so hard about telling your child that bad people lie. Just like there are bad people who will offer you candy and then take you in their car. Same thing.

[Harper_is_Bush]

50. I just think it's uneccessary at that age

to make an issue out of it.

What if his kid watches a carebear show and declares she wants to save the world so she can be a carebear. Is it neccessary for dad to have a serious conversation indicating that no, care bears cannot save the world and you cannot become a carebear.
Let them have a childhood without to much injection of adult seriousness, that's what I"m saying.

Of course 4 year olds are intelligent and can understand complex concepts. But sometimes they should be allowed to take it in without adult interference in the form of "this is how you should interpret that information literally and politically"

And you assumption that the military is aiming ads at 4-year olds is bizarre.

[Angry Girl]

51. Carebears won't harm you/humanity as much in the end....

Although some say that Barney is the Anti-Christ, so who knows! :shrug:

But, of course, my opinion is partially based on my assumption that the military is targeting 4-yr-olds -- hence my drastic means to drastic ends approach. Otherwise, yes, I agree with you: Don't make it a big thing, the seamonkeys will eclipse all of that soon enough.

But you think it's bizarre that I believe the military is marketing to 4-yr-olds. I think it's bizarre too, believe me! I think the power of the media has made this entire whole world a very surreal place.

Many of the major ads you see on tv are so carefully scripted, researched, and crafted you would be absolutely shocked. There is not a single frame that does not come under intense scrutiny by people whose job is to pull all your emotional strings, from the copy to the music to the editing.

The fact that a 4-yr-old was able to extrapolate the concept of "giving your life" from an ad that never mentioned the term is very revealing in itself. The ad does not rely solely on itself in a void - it uses as a framework other messages that have been repeated over and over, so that a mere 4-yr-old can come up with the underlying message that giving your life for your country is a good and noble thing. This concept may not be one her family wishes her to espouse.

Joe Camel. Remember him? By the time a child is hitting puberty, he's been bombarded by millions of messages, many of them working in synch, but none of them censored. He let's EVERYTHING in. So he sees glamrous smoking on TV and cool Joe Camel and by the time he's old enough to be curious, he may very well start smoking -- especially if his parents don't talk to him.

And check out some kid shows on PBS some weekend morning. Some really good shows and they cover a lot of ground and some very heavy concepts but if you watch very closely, you can see how certain values are surreptuitiously slipped into the facts. I'm not saying all the messages are bad or anything like that - I'm just saying that they are there and there's more to the interesting segment about visiting Army test pilots than just the cool planes....

Branding to the youth is a main feature of marketing today. Those sappy ads about some brand of oatmeal, with happy families and flowing wheat fields and other images that evoke feelings of trust and warm fuzzies? They're not just for you -- they're mainly for children! Because if they buy into a brand when they are young, studies show there's a good chance of getting their loyalty to that brand for the rest of their lives. Most marriages don't last that long! To boot, that's a customer base that will grow exponentially and therefore worth investing in heavily up front, even if the results won't be in for a decade or so (which is hardly any time at all for a megacorporation).

Same with clothing. And brands of computers. And cars. And all the rest of the crap the corporations want you to buy. It's kind of like a poker game: If you don't know who the mark is, you are.

[Angry Girl]

18. damn, i feel for you

That's a tough one. I guess I would sit down with her and watch some TV together and explain exactly what's going on. Show her some of the tricks they use in advertising, like the cars that appear to move but when you buy them, well, they don't.... And sea monkeys, etc.

She's should be old enough to understand that TV is a series of shows and ads that are paid for by people who don't always tell the truth. In fact, it's in their best interest to NOT tell the truth. because they want to sell bad things (unhealthy, cheaply made but expensive to buy, take your pick....) to people. Pick some Sugar Bombs cereal ad, say, and explain that the makers are lying to sell a cheap unhealthy product to those who don't know better. Like they do with cigarette and beer ads showing happy, young, trim, active people.

Do the same with some magazine ads. Also make sure to tell her that not everything she reads is true. and that there are always different sides to a story, and that in a world of woves and sheep, a history book written by wolves is going to be quite different from one written by sheep.

Kids are SMART! Teach them carefully and never t assume there is any concept they cannot grasp. By the time they are 10, you should be able to explain just about anything to them. If they don't understand, it's because you're not explaining it well!

Good luck! Tell us how it works out.

[FreedomAngel82]

19. Tell her

you can buy her a superhero watch without joining the army.

[Angry Girl]

21. Some good websites to deter wannabe enlisters.

http://www.objector.org/before-you-enlist.html

http://beforeyouenlist.org/index.htm

And if you're drafted:
http://nodraftnoway.org/about.shtml

[electron_blue]

29. thanks! I also have started a "peacenik" scrap book for her

Just in case, god forbid, the draft is in place when she's old enough (and women are drafted, which I assume will happen if men are drafted). I read in a parenting magazine that, while such a scrapbook documenting her attending peace rallies and other demonstrations that she strongly favors peaceful resolutions to conflict, is not enough by itself, it can help significantly to build a conscientious objector case. OF course, the child has to want to avoid signing up in the first place. However, it's not the kind of thing you can do 15 years from now, in hindsight, once you need it.

We talk an awful lot, as it comes up, about how we think people and animals ought to be treated. My mom recently told me she was chastised by my daughter for yelling at the cat, for instance... LOL.

Yep, definitely good to keep talking. She already has a strong built-in sense of fair play, so I think she'll think about this on her own.

[SmokingJacket]

22. I explained the whole thing to my five year old.

He's a peacenik now -- go figure.

(My kids' perennial question is, Why are factories allowed to make bombs? It should be illegal!)

[JuniperLea]

24. It's never too soon to clue a kid into the psychology of advertising

My kids literally grew up backstage, so the line between reality and make-believe was fairly developed at a young age. But when one of my sons felt ripped off by a toy he bought, he reflected on the advertising and how they reeled him in under false pretenses. We viewed a lot of advertising together after that. We talked about how good that frozen pizza looked on TV and how crummy it was when we got it home. A few carefully viewed "plots" and the whole deal became painfully clear to him. This is really the only time I can remember advocating cynicism with my kids.

[noamnety]

27. There's one problem with the superhero watch

Where do you wear it?



With a 4 year old, I think I'd tell her how many people are in the military all around the world ... and ask her if the world's been saved yet? Maybe the military isn't a way to save the world.

Then you could talk about which jobs she thinks could save the most people.

[electron_blue]

28. Thank you for all of your feedback

So, okay maybe I'm over-reacting a little bit. The threads saying "relax, she's only 4" are actually reassuring, especially when compared to someone who has a teen being courted by the military right now.

I think it is so painful bcs it took me off guard. I saw the ad and thought "who do they think they're fooling with that watch, gads" and to see my daughter process and a full minute later exclaim to me about the watch made me thing "aha! they got her!" Yeah, it's not quite that bad, but it clearly did not go over her head.

I have talked with her quite a bit about marketing and ads. Most of what she's seen on TV has been videos, so commercials are still pretty foreign concept to her. When we do watch regular TV, she gets impatient with the commercials and wants to know when the show is coming back on. Sometimes she just wanders away or turns off the TV, thinking her show is over, LOL. Which is fine with me of course. I've tried explaining to her that the commercials are just trying to convince her to buy something, but she really is too young to "get" it. She thinks everything in stores is free.

Btw, we did talk about the watch later and the ad, and her interpretation was that the people in the Army saved people, especially those in the hurricane. She went on at some length about people in boats being helped. I said that yes, sometimes people in the Army help others, but sometimes they fight and tried to leave it at that. She insisted that the people in the TV did not fight and were helpers. OF course, that is all the ad showed, right? For now, I'm glad that she and I could talk about it.

I guess the best thing a parent can do is to set a good example for peace and keep the lines of communication open.

[dannofoot]

30. Something is odd here...

...first of all, I've never seen ANY commericial for ANY military branch of service that mentions "giving your life." Not even close. It's a bad marketing tool for the military. We're to believe that a 4-year old is so prescient as to glean this from a TV commercial?

"If I save the world?"...again, point out which military branch airs a commercial where that is the message...even subliminal, no 4-year old is going to compute that that is the message.
And I love the "She breathlessly turned to me..."...yes, 'breathlessly." Just like kids do in cereal commercials.

"..the superhero watch..." What watch? Please inform me of a 4-year old who wants a watch; my two boys coulld not have cared less about ANY watch at aged 4...not the Burger King Rugrats watches, Timex Ironman watches their cousins gave them, etc.

Oh, I suppose that Electron could have the most incredible 4-year old in the country....but this stinks.

[electron_blue]

31. No, you're right about the first part -

I saw the ad and it didn't mention "giving your life". This is something she said on her own. She may have meant something else this. Saving the world, believe me, she knows about. She is still upset about the people in the hurricane and talks about the people she saw lifted up in helicopters that was shown on the weather channel. And the watch, again, she loves them. Someone gave her a watch for her 4yr old birthday and now she pays attention to everyone's watches.

Are you seriously doubting me? And yes, she is a pretty incredible 4 year old! :D

[dannofoot]

34. Well, you answered some questions...

...with that post. Not all, though.

You admit that the ad said nothing about "giving your life." Again, I've yet to see an ad for a military branch that brings up that aspect. You said you saw the ad...what branch; what did it say? Where did she get the "giving your life" bit?

"Saving the world, believe me, she knows about." You then describe her reactions to the hurricanes. But that's not what you put in your O.P. In fact, you quite tied her "saving the world" statement to the military ad you say she saw. Can you perhaps clarify that a bit more... did this "saving the world" theme evolve from her "breathlessly" turning to you after seeing the military ad?

And again..what watch? Did the ad mention a watch giveaway? Please tell us how the whole watch thing enters into her breathless pronouncement.

[electron_blue]

35. I really don't like your whole tone, your sarcasm

It was on the Country Music Channel. I bet if you watch that channel for awhile, the ad will show up. The commercial was for the army and yes, it did say contact them for information and you'll get a free superhero watch. It did give the impression of saving people and doing good for the country and the world. I don't know if it used the exact words "Save the world" but that is how she interpreted it. I'm damn sure that's how the commercial wanted a person to see the ad. My daughter said there were pictures of a boat swaying this way and that and the people in the commercial were saving them.

I posted this for some serious discussion. If you are not interested in contributing to helping parents talk to their children about army recruitment ads, please don't bother. And certainly don't bother trying to call me out as a troll or something. Good grief!

[dannofoot]

38. I neither...

..."called you out as a troll"...or did anything close to that.

And you never, in two posts, said you saw or heard the pitch for the "superhero watch;" you just stated what your 4-year said. Pardon me for not believing everything that comes from a 4-year old. Your, word, of course...I'm much more likely to accept.

"I'm damn sure that's how the commercial wanted a person to see the ad. My daughter said there were pictures of a boat swaying this way and that and the people in the commercial were saving them."

Well, that's certainly good enough for me. Your "damn sure" word and that of your 4-year old. Boats swaying, people saving them.. Listen, I'm all from saving 4-year olds from television adversting, but frankly...

...ads for junk food, junk TV, junk stores, junk restaurants...are gonna harm your daughter more in the long run than a U.S. Navy ad...or whatever branch of the service your claim may come from...

[electron_blue]

43. Yes, I saw the ad. So are you taking me at my word? Any chance of an

apology coming from you?

Re-read my posts and you'll see that I made it clear that I saw the ad from the beginning. How else could she have turned to me after watching the ad if I hadn't been right there next to her?

Also, after I said she was interested in the watch in the OP, you sarcastically said "Please inform me of a 4-year old who wants a watch". What is this supposed to mean? You tell me. I claimed my daughter wanted the watch, you counter by clearly doubting that any 4 yr old would want a watch, and as proof of that, saying that your 2 boys were never interested in them at that age (or perhaps any age). Maybe not all 4 yr olds are alike, did you consider that? Maybe I do have an advanced child, did you consider that?

It seems to me that you have a big chip on your shoulder about something. I posted asking for help and not sarcastic attacks.

[Ravenseye]

32. Saving Private Ryan

It might be a tad harsh for a four year old, but the first 20 minutes of that movie is probably the best advertisment against war ever on screen. Have her watch that and ask her if she'd go through that for a watch.

Otherwise, she's four. I wouldn't worry too much about it. When I was four I went back and forth between wanting to be a fireman, a taxi driver, or an indian. I don't think honestly it's possible to truly get a four year old to understand the concept, and they don't need to at that point. Just do what you're doing, teach them to be critical thinkers, and when the time comes they'll see through all that mularkey and make the decision to serve or not, on their own.

[dannofoot]

33. YOU'D HAVE A 4-YEAR OLD WATCH...

..."SAVING PRIVATE RYAN?"

Please tell me you don't have children. Please, tell me that.

Please.

[dannofoot]

39. Sorry, Ravenseye, gotta ask again...

...you stated that the first 20 minutes of "Saving Private Ryan" might be "a tad harsh." And you recommended that a 4-YEAR OLD BE SUBJECTED TO IT!

Again, I ask...are you serious?

[AtomicKitten]

40. What a sweetie!

My baby is 19 years old.

I would say explain in very general, innocuous terms.

The real world will hit her upside the head soon enough.

Please post a picture!

[electron_blue]

44. Thanks, and yes, she is a sweetie. I'll see what I can find to post

good username, btw.

[spanone]

42. Tell her she's a superhero WITHOUT the watch.

[electron_blue]

45. good reply!

We actually have a man who dresses up as Superman in town and stands on streetcorners. He doesn't do much other than stand there and wave to people. Right now, this is pretty much all she thinks superhero's do, LOL>

[Giant Robot]

46. Be who you are with her

That will be your best weapon against military recruitment if that is what you are against. She will learn from you by example. Hold her close tell her you love her and would be very sad if she "gave her life." That is, if you feel the need to do something. She is 4 and will probably drop this in a matter of minutes when something else catches her attention. So I guess my message is for the most part relax and enjoy your daughter.

[aikoaiko]

47. Answer her honestly and say, "Yes," but follow it with ...

... "there may be better ways of saving the world and I think you can do it." Your daughter is learning about bravery and we need that more than ever. You'll have time to teach her that there are many ways to be brave and save the world.

I'm glad and proud that there are men and women who are willing to serve this country. US military service has done some great things historically. But its not for everyone.

[AngryOldDem]

48. That's why I HATE the Army commercials.

They reduce war to a fun video game, make it sound like you'll see really cool places while your in and have a ticket to the world and all its successes after you get out. All ya gotta do is call this number for more information.

My blood pressure shoots up 100 points whenever those things come on the air, because your daughter's reaction is EXACTLY what they are hoping for. It's opportunistic, and disgusting, and definitely NOT truth in advertising.

[XanaDUer]

49. There used to be a kids' mag called "Zillions"

put out by Consumers' Union to show kids how to look through the BS advertising aimed at them every second in our family-friendly, pro-life, child-centered country.

I can see why you're appalled.