Chicago turns down discounted oil from Venezuela

[NI4NI]

Plus, Exxon Mobil faces the prospect of being forced out of the oil fields it currently operates down there.

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com

[Erika]

1. Interesting.

Chavez offers Americans cheaper gas for our "needy".

[NI4NI]

3. It's already working in the Bronx

between Citgo and 3 non-profit organizations supplying heating oil for the poor. I think in Massachusettes also.
I've decided to buy Citgo gasoline.

[me b zola]

2. So will the person who made that brilliant decsion

be held criminaly responsible for the deaths of the citizens of Chicago who freeze to death this winter? :grr: :mad: :grr: :mad: :grr:

[mopinko]

22. jesus, did you read the article? this is not about heat.

it is about diesel fuel for cta buses.

[Straight Shooter]

31. Actually, in terms of having more money, it is about heat.

The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings on to poor residents in the form of free or discounted fare cards.

It lessens the burden of choosing between spending your money on transportation to go to work or spending that money for heat. The more money you spend on transportation, the less money available to spend for heat.

[mopinko]

33. oh, please

can we have some intellectual integrity here?

[Straight Shooter]

39. Please, yourself.

YOu are way out of line for that remark.

[me b zola]

43. We are on the same side of the debate

so there isn't need of hostility towards me.

Geez :eyes:

[mopinko]

52. no we are not.

although there is nothing personal here.
i think that the person that turned this down deserves a promotion for looking at the whole picture and protecting the interests of the cta.

[Wilms]

4. Wow! Look what's goin' on.

Chicago Turns Down Discounted Venezuelan Oil

Friday, Dec 30, 2005

By: Jessica Pupovac - The NewStandard

Chicago, Dec 28

snip

In an October meeting with representatives from the Chicago Transit Authority (CTA), the city's Department of Energy and other city officials, Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.

But two months later, despite claims of a looming budget crisis, the CTA president "has no intent or plan to accept the offer," according to CTA spokesperson Ibis Antongiorgi. She gave no explanation.

According to Venezuela’s consul general in Chicago, Martin Sanchez, the CTA has yet to inform his office of its decision to decline the discount offer.

In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be addressed by fair hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month, and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for passengers paying cash.

snip

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1858

[aquart]

5. Chavez just makes me grin.

[silverweb]

8. Me, too.

:D

He's got guts and panache. And I love the "Axis of Good" moniker that he came up with to represent the new Latin America! I want to see them succeed completely and rub the BFEEs collective noses in their dust.

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines03/0103-01.htm

[cantstandbush]

17. I so much want them to succeed. I am learning Spanish. Really!

They can do it if they can fight the clandestine war our CIA will be waging against them with the help of other foreign intel bodies.

[silverweb]

37. Good idea!

Actually, learning Spanish is a good idea anyway, considering how prevalent it is both in our own country and around the world. I've picked up a little bit by osmosis, living in SoCal, but haven't gotten around formal lessons.

I think they are off to a good start and the sense of optimism I feel for them is something I want to feel for us again, too.

This has to be our year! If we don't clean house and get our country back on track in 2006, we may never have another chance.

[Cha]

70. I used to know Espanol when

I lived in San Diego and would love to brush up on it again!

I admire Chavez wholeheartedly and have my money on the good.. versus the evil bush empire.

[Wilms]

11. Doesn't he.

The best part is oil rich VZ is part of a leftward shift AND US/Oil Empire is in less of a position to futz with it than at any point in my lifetime.

[TheGunslinger]

16. Time to flood Chicago papers and TV stations with calls and emails!!

[oasis]

29. No explanation for turning down the Chavez offer to help the poor.

Mmmmmkay.

[cal04]

6. Chicago is refusing Venezuelan discounted oil to low-income

Chicago is refusing Venezuelan discounted oil to low-income neighborhoods
Instead of accepting deeply discounted fuel from the Venezuela-owned CITGO Petroleum Corporation, the city is instead raising fares to solve budget shortfalls. In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be addressed by fair hikes. Chicagoans who are unaware of the Venezuela offer will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month, and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for passengers paying cash.

“This is going to hurt the poor and the minority people, like me,” said Dorothy Chew, resident of Humboldt Park, where one-third of residents live below the federally recognized poverty level -- currently just $16,000 for a family of three. Chew relies on the CTA to get to work and to Chicago Commons, where she attends classes daily in preparation for taking her GED. Since she rarely has money to invest in a fare card, she will be forced to pay for transfers the majority of the time.


CITGO has made a similar arrangement with Citizens Energy Corp. in Boston for the sale and distribution of 12 million gallons, saving low-income and elderly residents there a total of $10 million. The company’s website says that it expects to expand the program to other boroughs in New York City and that it is exploring the possibility of offering discounted fuel to residents in Maine, Rhode Island, Connecticut and Pennsylvania.


Representatives from the US State Department and city officials, including Aldermen involved in the negotiations and the Chicago Mayor’s Office, refused to respond to queries about whether international politics played any part in the CTA’s rejection of CITGO’s offer.

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=47544

[rpannier]

14. It's easy for the CTA and the Mayor's Office to say no

They make big salaries and they don't travel on the Loop. They should be hounded at every turn until they explain why they turned this down. Was it the free and discounted fares to the poor? Maybe if Chavez had insisted on free and discounted fares to the upper 5% economically, then they'd have taken it.

[mopinko]

24. keep the facts straight.

this will not keep fares down, even if they took it. it is to be distributed in the form of free fare cards for poor people. in one hand, and out the other. with administrative costs to boot.
how would you distribute the free cards fairly?

[OzarkDem]

25. Not hard - give to local welfare offices

Most states, as well as the federeral agencies, have very detailed databases on low income people. Applications for public assistance today require applications that run as long as 30 pages, including copies of bank statements, credit cards, loans, extensive credit checks, etc. All they would have to do is print some free passes and send them to the neighborhood family assistance or job centers. Have them numbered and make agencies report. Not that hard, really. They have excellent data mining and retrieval resources to track potential fruad or abuse.

[mopinko]

27. heating oil companies already have this is place. the cta- not

this costs money. it may not be a quagmire, but it does take time and money. and it has to be fair. do you give a limited quantity of passes to the local afdc office, and let them decide which recipients get them? do you have it in your database which clients have to make 3 transfers to get to work, and which ones work close to home and take no buses. the working poor who need them most are not necessarily those with the lowest income. it is not easy. it is complicated, and it takes money. and in the end it is not intended to lower fares, so stop linking the 2.

[OzarkDem]

42. Yes, they can handle it

As for the cost to CTA, all they have is the cost of printing up some passes and putting some information on their web site, doing some press releases - free media. That can't be too expensive.

[silverweb]

7. This is going to go over well.

:eyes:

Citgo unveiled a plan to provide the Chicago with low-cost diesel fuel. The company's stipulation, at the bidding of Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez, was that the CTA, in turn, pass those savings on to poor residents in the form free or discounted fare cards.

In place of the proposed discount, which the CTA apparently does not want Chicagoans to even know about, budget shortfalls will be addressed by fair hikes. Chicagoans, who are unaware of the Venezuela offer, will be hit with an increase of 25 cents per ride next month, and discounted route-to-route transfers will be eliminated for passengers paying cash.

Hey, Chicago! Your CTA doesn't want you to know about this, so make some noise and be sure it's all over your local news stations!

[mopinko]

23. my cta is not a social service agency, and

does not have the kind of existing relationship with same that can be used to distribute the free fare cards that this offer requires. don't get me wrong, i love hugo, it would be great for them to do this, but let's keep the facts straight here.

[OzarkDem]

26. They don't have to be

They can give the passes to local human services agencies to distribute to clients. Its a false choice.

The article seems to indicate it was the federal government who put pressure on CTA to refuse the money and rewarded them with $84 million in infrastructure funds instead.

[mopinko]

28. see above, and

i do not dispute that the feds leaned on them not to do this. i would be surprised if they didn't. but i *think* that if it was worth the trouble, ritchie would have taken the heat and done it. i don't know, but i do think he knows how to deal with mobsters. say what you want about him, he has a spine.

[KharmaTrain]

47. Also, This Would Be A "Temporary " Program

I agree with what you're saying as you know Chicago and how much beauracracy has to be moved here. Also, the CTA is only one element of the picture...many low income people rely on the RTA...trains from the suburbs that are much more expensive to travel on and transit services that are usually cut out of the pie when the CTA gets involved. A free fare card means a lot more in Aurora or Waukegan, but that'd get shoved on the back burner...especially if a "one-size fits all" answer is applied.

The problem with this solution is it's temporary...people would get these fare cards and assume it was a lifelong pass or it would open the door for tons of other abuses. Then where does one draw the line as to who qualifies? Is it location? Income? There's just too many chances for something good to be abused.

Happy New Year...

[Inland]

35. That proves Chavez's offer duplicitous.

After all, Chavez doesn't have to provide fuel. He could sell the oil and buy CTA fare cards himself and send them to local agencies.


Or better yet, he could sell the oil and send money to Chicago local human services agencies.

[mopinko]

44. or he could sell the oil to cta, no strings attached

and benefit the whole city of chicago.

[silverweb]

36. That's a bogus argument.

Does the CTA already offer student and senior discounts? Does the CTA already offer discounts for the handicapped? Then it would be a relatively simple step for them to implement a similar setup for the poor.

[mopinko]

46. do you think that those programs do not cost money?

i'm not saying it would take a new apollo project to accomplish, i'm just saying it would cost the cta money. you cannot get around it. if they have to have an employee write a press release, and answer 50 phone calls, that is money. money that gives no net benefit to the cta system.
and you just cannot implement this without some sort of fair system. who gets them? the only way to do that without spending money is to toss them out a window.
this is the real world.

[slor]

9. Chicago DUers ! Get the word out!

I hope the people behind this decision get their just dessert.

[silverweb]

10. Kicked and recommended!

Let's send this from DU's "Greatest" front page to front pages nationwide!

:kick:

[NI4NI]

12. Hey Silverweb

The Wombat is The Greatest!!!

[silverweb]

38. Glad you like it!

I love the Wombat, too! (*whispering* Actually, I think he may be a prophet or avatar of the FSM. This is just my own intuition, mind you, but I wouldn't be at all surprised.)

:hi:

[personman]

13. Kicked, recommended.

It's easy to say "no thanks" when you are some dick in a suit with a 6 figure salary.

I've made sure I mentioned this a few times on various different Chicago chat rooms.
If anyone knows any good Chicago forums, that might be a good place to bring this up.

Perhaps if this gets splashed enough places, a public outcry will force them to accept. At the very least they will be watching their backs and deservedly so.

-personman

[Lasher]

15. I don't get it, what could be the CTA's motive?

Do they want to support US oil companies' oligopoly on petrolium products? Or are they just so arrogant that they resent the stipulation to lower transit fares?

[mopinko]

21. they cannot live up to the bargain. and it won't lower fares.

they would have see that free cards are given to poor people. how are they going to do that? my reading is that it would not be a net gain for the cta, just a burden of a new program.

[mopinko]

18. hold on people- let's be fair here-

this is not going to keep fares down. that is not how the offer can work. cta is being told that they have to funnel these savings to poor people in the form of free fare cards. so, repeat- this will not keep fares down. in order to accept this aid, the cta has to find a way to distribute the free cards to qualified recipients. so, for no net reductions in their operating expenses, they have to create and operate a bureaucracy to distribute the cards. this costs money. so, in the end, cta will spend more money.
do the math, people, and read the story. this is not the cta says no to an offer of cheap fuel. this is the cta says no to becoming a social welfare organization. not the same thing folks. details, details.

[OzarkDem]

20. Possible threats to federal funding

Also in the article,

"The CTA relies on the US federal government – which is in a constant war of words with Venezuelan President Chavez – for much of its funding. In fact, just weeks after Citgo made its offer to the CTA, Congress signed the Federal Transportation Appropriations bill, allocating $89 million in infrastructure project funds the CTA had been seeking for years."

It appears that since CTA refused Chavez offer, they will get some money for infrastructure that they had been seeking. Apparently this doesn't translate into lower fares, only improvements in infrastructure.

It may also be safe to assume if CTA had accepted Chavez offer, the feds might have cut their federal subsidy.

[silverweb]

40. That's the only reason that makes any sense.

However, it still doesn't explain the CTA's secrecy and wish to hide the whole offer from Chicagoans. They could have made a simple statement to that effect and saved themselves a public relations nightmare. Personally, I think there's more to it politically.

[High Plains]

30. Fare increases are a much better solution, right?

Maybe, just maybe, CTA could find some way to implement this. If it felt like it.

[mopinko]

50. it will not lower fares.

it is intended as a gift to the poor, not the system as a whole. the discount must be offset by fare card giveaways. which will cost money. so it is a net loss to the cta, but a plus to hugo. i love hugo, but he can pay for his own PR.

[1932]

58. How is this not paying for his own PR?

[Inland]

34. That was my thought, too. It can't be done as a poor program.

It's not like there's a database of "poor commuters" out there or a means to provide only poor commuters with a discount.

Fact is, the CTA doesn't have a way to discriminate between rich people taking the bus and poor people taking the bus, people riding the el for a one day jaunt and those reliant on it for daily transportation.

Creation of a one shot bureacracy, no good.

[silverweb]

41. Why not?

It wouldn't have to be any more complicated than just expanding the existing program for senior/student/handicapped ID and passes.

[Inland]

49. Then you are using a proxy for "poor", not poor.

Those categories don't mean poor, and nothing about being poor that puts you in one of the categories.

You could just cut the entire CTA fare structure, and deliver a benefit to the poor more efficiently and fairly. After all, the really well off don't ride the CTA.

But then, the offer would be accepted, just as an offer of cash would be accepted.

Anyone care to send Hugo the number of the Salvation Army?

[mopinko]

54. that has nothing to do with poor.

especially the student part.

[silverweb]

56. That's not what I said.

I was merely pointing out that if a structure already exists for providing discounted fares to people in the senior/student/handicapped categories (as we have here in San Diego), it could rather easily be adjusted to include an income category, i.e., "poor," without creating a whole new bureaucracy.

As I stated in another post, it would appear that the outright rejection of aid is based more on politics than practicality, anyway. I just find the "can't do" attitude discouraging.

[mopinko]

57. "structures" do not expand without money

there is no way to slice this offer without the cta having to spend money to do this. it is strapped for cash as it is. how much support do you think is out there for public transportation these days?
i don't doubt that there are other things going on here. i'm sure there are. but this is just not the way to help chicago's poor. not by taking money away from a transit system that we all need.

[rman]

59. how can you be so sure it will cost more then it will save?

you seem to start with the premise that the cost is always higher then the amount that is saved - according to that logic it is never worth it to spend money in order to save money.

do the math? what are the numbers?

[mopinko]

62. all i know about the numbers is what the article said

that the deal is that discounts be distributed to the poor in the form of free passes. no net gain to the system. but distributing them costs money. and even if it didn't, in a city this big, it would be very difficult to do it fairly. a headache for no net gain? take it back to the drawing board.

[rman]

64. The gain is that the poor are helped out.

I know it's not financial profit, but is it not worth something?

[mopinko]

65. no. do it another way.

the cta hangs by a thread, and the poor would be hurt the MOST by sucking money out of the budget for this. it is not part of the agency's mission to certify that people are poor, and need help. it can hardly fulfill it's mission now. they need to find another way.

[rman]

67. If Venezuelan cheap fuel does help the poor elsewhere in the US,

then why not in Chicago?

[mopinko]

68. because the infrastructure is in place

we do not use heating oil much here. so they cannot donate that. with heat, there is already infrastructure to deal with funneling it to the poor. if he could send natural gas, it would be a few strokes on a computer to distribute.
the cta does not have infrastructure in place to do this, and, apparently does not want to build it for a short term program. and i agree.
again, i love hugo, i am glad he is thinking of us. i hope they go back to the drawing board, and find a way to make it work. but i strenuously object to taking cta money and time to find the worthy recipients, and give them cards. and if they do not do it perfectly fairly, there will be a shit storm.

[rman]

71. thanks for explaining. nt

[Scooter24]

60. The whole point...

The whole point of the lower-priced oil was not to help Chicago's general CTA customer but to help out those riders who are in desperate need of savings. I could deal with the fare increase because my income is enough to support the change, however, many can not. A family living off of less than $20,000 a year could really use that savings, even if it was only $100.

CTA needs to stop thinking of this program as an entitlement to them and instead think of their customers who might need it, even if only temporary. If the CTA was truly worried about the overhead cost of a free card program, then I'm sure a reduced fair card, where the small fee would cover any administrative costs, would still be welcomed.

Instead, CTA will just raise the fares across the board, forcing everyone to pay up without any care to those who need the savings that Chavez had proposed. Instead of a win-win situation, CTA chose sole victory over the needs of their poorer customers.

But then again, if politics really played a role in this decision, I guess the above arguments is moot.

[mopinko]

63. stop confusing this with the fare increase

this has nothing to do with the fare increase. it is just a coincidence that these 2 things came up at the same time. by design, it does not help the system as a whole, except that it imposes costs that the system can ill afford. to say nothing of the headache of distributing them fairly. i live here, i can tell you, that chore will be a no win situation.

[LSK]

66. well, we dont know how much a bureaucracy would cost to do this

We dont know how much savings in fuel the CTA would get.

We dont know how much the bureaucracy to distribute savings to the poor would cost.

How do we know that maybe fuel savings costs would absorb the bureaucrazy costs to help the poor? Perhaps Venezuala is willing to work with the CTA on this issue??

Also, even if there is added costs to the CTA to help the poor, so why not do that anyways and raise the rates for others like they will anyways???

You are right that we need details, but even you are assuming things without details.

[mopinko]

69. you are right, i am assuming

but this is a big city, with a lot of poor people, and if it isn't done fairly, fairer than fair, like harold used to say, it will be a shit storm. and i know that costs a lot of money. if hugo wants to take care of that part, great. i don't see how they could, tho. don't see the state of illinois opening up their welfare files to venezuela, for instance. but, maybe they could.
if it costs the cta a dime, i am against it. remember that the riders of the cta are mostly poor, and nearly poor. it is not fair to take scarce recources from them.
i think they should give a discount at citgo stations to people who have a link card, or other proof of poverty. that costs peanuts.

[OzarkDem]

19. British Petrol / Amoco headquartered there

Post merger, they moved to Naperville, IL, but the Amoco headquarters used to be in downtown Chicago.

[oasis]

32. The "Obama for VP crowd" should get their man to speak out on this.

Here's a chance for him to capture the national spotlight.

[Miss Chybil]

45. Ah, why should the government worry about poor people?

They can't donate to campaigns and they don't vote. Fuck 'em.

/sarcasm

[nolabels]

61. Wow ! , such a warm hearted response, it even sounds like our government

:D

[NNN0LHI]

48. A mother and her son froze to death in their Chicago house a few weeks ago

Nice, huh?

Don

[mopinko]

53. what does that have to do with this?

nothing.

[Clutch Cargo]

51. Global warming

That will keep people from freezing in Chicago.:sarcasm:

[mopinko]

55. that has even less to do with this

than most of the repies in this thread.