The Danish Cartoon: Rush Limbaugh should sell it on t-shirts

[Ian David]

If he can sell "Club Gitmo" shirts and proclaim that torturing and raping Iraqi children is "harmless fraternity pranks," then hopefully he is man enough to put the cartoons on t-shirts and sell them.

And hopefully his fans are patriotic Republicans and will proudly wear them in public.

Especially while traveling abroad.

And Bill O'Reilly... is he any less of a man than Limbaugh is?

Surely, Bill O'Reilly is man enough to sell shirts and hats with the cartoon on them. We promise Howard Stern won't give any of them to lesbians.

And Ann Coulter... well, we know "she" is man enough... but it would still be interesting to see if that shemale plagiarist Ann Coulter has the balls to sell and wear Allah-mocking merchandise.

It is every Republican's duty.

[Erika]

1. The right sickens me. n/t

[DBoon]

2. The cartoons are a "fraternity prank" compared to ..

.. the anti-muslim hate on right wing radio

[Sarah Ibarruri]

3. The Danes have a very free press and are not anti-Arab

It's interesting that people can poke fun in cartoons at Jesus, the Pope, Indian gods and goddesses, but now they can't poke fun at Mohammed because the fundy Arabs begin to threaten murder and the rest of the Arabs begin to threaten economic sanctions.

Arabs are now going after both friend and foe alike. I guess it's Arabs against the entire rest of the world.

It's one thing that they protest invasions like the one by our own President Jackass, and fight back. It's quite a different one when they start to demand that nations friendly to them censor their press.

(And let's not forget that Arabs, in their own countries have ZERO freedom of the press).

[MikeStl]

4. I agree with that

Radical right religious people of all kinds are just so damned annoying. Being an agnostic myself it's hard to indentify with why they get so worked up.

[Erika]

8. They get worked up when other religions mock their

religious figures. Known any Muslim cartoon who mocked Christ?

[MikeStl]

10. Was it a christian cartoon doing the mocking?

I wasn't aware...honestly I hadn't looked that far in to it. It doesn't seem very nice for them to be doing the mocking but it seems like they should be able to under freedom of the press. And the people rioting and burning things down have definitely made their personal option null and void.

[Solo_in_MD]

21. Not relevant

- It was a secular paper
- The cartoons were not done by Christians
- No mention of Christianity in the cartoons
- No Christian symbols in the cartoons

The Moslem presumption is fundamentally racist (you are White so you must be Christian oppressor and infidel)

[Sarah Ibarruri]

34. I don't know of any.

Islam is a religion designed by Mohammed, upon the foundations of Judaism and Christianity, so they believe that Jesus is a prophet. However, there are PLENTY of Islamic cartoons insulting the Hindu religion deities. Believe me, Islamic Arabs have no problem whatsoever attacking those whom they don't share a belief with.

[Solo_in_MD]

5. I would wear one

First of all its not Arabs is Muslims. That is not a hair split. One is a religion, the other a racial/ethnic sub group. There are Arab Christians, Jews, Muslims, Baha'i and atheists. Its the Muslims that are pissed, take a look at Jakarta to see that they are not all Arab.

Second, I hate fascists of all kinds. Fundie-fascists, Islamic Fascists, Neighborhood Association fascists, and even the PC Fascists (they exist too). Poking a fascist in the eye virtually is a good thing to do now and then to remind them that can not control the free expression of those who disagree with them.

It is also a good thing to remind fascists that they do not have a right not to be offended. I wear shirts that annoy other fascists, why not Muslim fascists too? When (not if) they become available, hopefully they will be available from progressive groups as well.

I have been very disappointed in the Progressive media and internet on this issue. Many are seeing a cabal involving the US. Nonsense. The provenance of the cartoons is well documented. Everyone needs to take off the tin foil and stand up for free speech.

I have become very hardcore on this issue. We can not stand by and talk about not offending the a religious group that is much more socially backward, aggressive, and bloody minded than all the Christian fundies combined.

[Erika]

9. I disagree

Your post shows prejudice and a hateful and backward attitude against the Muslims.

Remember, W is greeting King Abdullah this week and is dear friends with the House of Saud. So why is he greeting them? The Saudis are frequent guests at the Texas ranch.

[fujiyama]

11. Whtat haattred?

This is getting ridiculous. It is a fact that no other religious grroup is nearly this sensitivee. We don't see Hindus burning down Fox because theey sometimes mock Ganesh and other Gods.

Why does thhe world have to bend over to Islam? I know you think we shouldn't mock any religion so you're consistent, but I haven't noticed that to be the case with everyone here.

I'm sorry, but those justifying violence are fascists. I don't like fundies of aany stripe, but to call someone anti Muslim or bigotetd because they arer unwilling to simply bend over to fanatics shows cowardice.

[Hatalles]

12. WHO is justifying violence?

JESUS! These strawmen fallacies are getting on my nerves... this is the same kind of RW meme used against liberals who dare to examine the symptoms of terrorism and 9/11.

[fujiyama]

14. I'm tirerd of the stttawman putt out that if you criticize this behavior

you are anti Islam.

I'm sorry, but this extreme reaction is unjustified. Offense would be one thing. I can see why someone would be offended and that's understandable. I won't tell anyone they can or can't be offended. We all have varying sensitivities. If they wrotet letters, and boycotted ttheh advertisers fine. I might even understand protesting embassies (though that would be misguided).

None of these things happen in a vaacuum and I agree that we haven't helped calm the Muslim world in anyways. Attacking an innocent nation is a good exaample. But thhe recent violence isn't over Bush or the war. This was simply going nutst over someething petty. I'm almost surre they would have rioted regardless of thehe country supported thee war or not. If this was a Canadian paper, Canadian embassies would be sett ablaze.

I am not willing to have fundamentalist Christians or Muslims dictate what I read or watch because it may offend them. That's my bottom line. I think both are baad in this regard, but the Islamic variety is particularly over thee top.

[Hatalles]

17. Re:

No one has claimed if you simply criticize the *violent* reaction, you are anti-Islam. I'm glad that you understand that people have a right to be offended by these cartoons... and there are plenty of Muslims responding w/out resorting to violence (but, of course, this isn't as photogenic for cable news as the violence)

Your "bottom line" is misleading... I don't believe anyone is dictating what you read or watch... this controversy is about offensive cartoons that were published in the Jyllands Posten that were intended to confront and offend Muslims.

There is no excuse for the violent reaction but I won't excuse puposefully offensive, insensitive, and belligerent bigotry. Nor would I excuse any violent behavior if derogatory and Jim-Crowesque cartoons of MLK or Rosa Parks were published on the front page of the NY Times... I wouldn't excuse the Times itself for abusing their "free speech" rights in such a way either.

[fujiyama]

24. Actually thaat is exactly whatt another poster claimed

She staated tthat thte other poster was hateful because he pointed out that there are problems in the Islamic world regarding free speech.

We cannot give in to fundamentalists of any sort. No one haas a right not to be offended. That's one of the draawbacks (and virtues) of being in a free society.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

30. It's Arabs against the rest of the world

Even against their friends, like the Danes.

[MikeStl]

13. I guess I do have a certain predjudice...

against any religion that considers gays and lesbians as lesser people or sinners. From my experience Islam is no better than Christianity when it comes to that issue. If I am wrong on that I'd like to know.

[Solo_in_MD]

15. Current Muslim practices

are considerably worse than current Christian ones.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. What hatred?

Declaring that groups do not have a right not to be offended is not hatred towards Islam.

What this really boils down to is when a single religious group declares something a sacrilege does everybody else has to go along. The answer to that is NO. Free Speech is a basic right. Everyone, including Muslims, needs to deal with it. Right now Muslims are being much more oppressive about their views than the Christian fundies.

[Hatalles]

18. Thought this might interest you... someone else posted it a little earlier

Fighting words doctrine. The First Amendment doctrine that holds that certain utterances are not constitutionally protected as free speech if they are inherently likely to provoke a violent response from the audience. N.A.A.C.P. v. Clairborne Hardware Co., Miss., 458 U.S. 886, 102 S.Ct. 3409, 73 L.Ed.2d 1215 (1982). Words which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace, having direct tendency to cause acts of violence by the persons to whom, individually, remark is addressed. The test is what persons of common intelligence would understand to be words likely to cause an average addressee to fight. City of Seattle v. Camby, 104 Wash.2d 49, 701 P.2d 499, 500.

The "freedom of speech" protected by the Constitution is not absolute at all times and under all circumstances and there are well-defined and narrowly limited classes of speech, the prevention and punishment of which does not raise any constitutional problem, including the lewd and obscene, the profane, the libelous, and the insulting or "fighting words" which by their very utterance inflict injury or tend to incite an immediate breach of the peace. Chaplinsky v. New Hampshire, 315 U.S. 568, 62 S.Ct. 766, 86 L.Ed. 1031.

[High Plains]

19. Poking them in the eye...

Working real well this week, ain't it?

[Solo_in_MD]

25. Actually in many ways it has

It has shown the rest of the world how intolerant a significant portion of the Muslim world is. Its is also showing people that Islam is not limited to the Middle East (a common misconception). To address a problem first you have to acknowledge there is one. More people will now be thinking of Islam fundamentalists as a problem for their societies. That IMO is a good thing.

[Erika]

6. What about the right censoring here against religious views?

It's very common here that the rabid right wing will censor any show which they don't agree with. They censored Book of Daniel, tried to censor Brokeback Mountain. Remember when they censored a TV movie who wasn't friendly to their image of Reagan.

Coulter said all Muslims should convert or be killed. Robertson says twice Chavez should be assassinated, etc.

But I have never seen a Muslim mocking Christ. Both the Jews and the Muslims except Christ as a prophet and neither of them have ever mocked Christ.

Get the picture?

[Solo_in_MD]

20. Its done through economics not with AK-47s and Molotov Cocktails

It's very common here that the rabid right wing will censor any show which they don't agree with. They censored Book of Daniel, tried to censor Brokeback Mountain. Remember when they censored a TV movie who wasn't friendly to their image of Reagan.

That was done through economic boycott and peacefully pressure. Progressives do the same for things we disagree with (though I wish we were more effective). Neither side burns embassies of countries that support free speech and a free press or takes over offices brandishing AK-47s

Coulter said all Muslims should convert or be killed. Robertson says twice Chavez should be assassinated, etc.

No actions were taken, no one was injured. They were nothing compared to a fatwa. Western society understands that we have to tolerate objectionable speech and that we do not have a right not to be offended. Note also that Islam has been preaching conversion or death since its inception.

But I have never seen a Muslim mocking Christ. Both the Jews and the Muslims except Christ as a prophet and neither of them have ever mocked Christ.

Then you know little of the history of Islam.

[fujiyama]

22. Wow

I applaud for you taking a tough stand. While I see why someone may be offended by thesee comicsc, one should not be called a bigot for simply defending the right to say something insensttive.

And Coulter was fired by the National Review, as loathsome a magazine as it is, aftere the comment. Though unfortunately, other publications did take her up.

But that's the point, no one here defends Coulter's psychotic comments of poisoning justices and whatnot. But we know she should have the right to say it.

[Leopolds Ghost]

26. I know little of the history of Islam, but

Islam never preached "conversion or death". Like Moses before him and Joseph Smith after him, Mohammed was not above ambushing a party of infidels (in particular, the Jews of Medina) and massacring them. One of the reasons Christians can cite for him being a false prophet is this sort of conveniently Leninesque behavior on Mohammed's part. Then again, Mohammed had his reasons. He was trying to get away from wishy-washy messianic religion and back to the Old Testament theology, which is just rife with bloodletting, much of it from a time period when the Hebrews were barely any more monotheistic than the Egyptians.

But in other ways Islam was enlightened for its time. If you didn't convert, you weren't a citizen and didn't get "civil benefits" and could even be enslaved (in battle) -- unless you were Jewish or Christian. Jews and Christians were in about the same situation as non-veterans in Heinlein's Starship Troopers -- they were not part of the ummah but could do quite well, thank you (and still do in many Muslim countries -- or did until recently. There used to be a large Jewish population in Iraq until after WWII. There's still a synagogue in Baghdad, I think.) And Christians are a substantial minority of Palestinians, Syrians and Lebanese. Small but significant Christian denominations exist in Turkey and Egypt.

[Ian David]

29. The Talibornagain on the Christian Right aren't peaceful, here either

Remember:

Timothy McVeigh and the Oklahoma City Bombing
The Olympic Park Bomber-- bombed the Olympics, and abortion clinic, and a gay bar
The current spree of church arson in Maryland
Assassinations of doctors that perform abortion

And let's not forget that Der Chimpenfuherer has refereed to this war as a "crusade" and declared it necessary to fight them over there and not "in the civilized world." This war is a war of aggression waged by violent Christian extremists. The Pentecostals and Christian Dominionists who have seized control of our government through coup d'etat in 2000.

[thinkingwoman]

28. But they mock Jews just fine

Muslims, especially in the Middle East, seemed to have no problems with articles in their newspapers accusing Jews of being cannibals and baby-killers.

Seriously, this is BS

[Erika]

7. Show me one Muslim who has mocked Christ n/t

[Sarah Ibarruri]

35. Your response

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=326060#330131

[Violet_Crumble]

23. Arabs and Muslims aren't the same thing...

You seem to be of the belief that they are, and that assumption is just as incorrect as yr one that Denmark doesn't have a strong undertow of bigotry against Muslim (that's what you meant to say instead of Arab) immigrants....

Violet...

[Ian David]

27. Not all Arabs are Muslim, and not all Muslims are Arabs

Arabs are an ethnic group, not a religion.

In fact, many Arabs are Christian.

And the first Jewish settlers in Israel after World War II considered themselves to be "Jewish Arabs."

I don't understand why they get more enraged over a symbolic slight of their dead prophet than by the death, destruction and torture we rain down upon their actual people.

Why are they more mad about THIS than about the things Rush Limbaugh and James Dobson say about their living, breathing citizens?

[Sarah Ibarruri]

32. Some African Americans are Muslim..... but...

As far as I know, they do not engage in public executions of women for adulterous affairs, nor do they cut off their hands, nor do they burn them, nor do they engage in polygamy, etc.

This goes on in Arabic countries, where Arabs live.

[Sarah Ibarruri]

31. In addition to Arabs attacking their friends and believing in censorship..

... and the fact that these people allow no freedom of speech, and threaten those who dare use freedom of speech with death (Salman Rushdie has lived hiding from these Arab lunatics for most of his life for speaking openly), I cannot forget or overlook that Arab nations (with rare exception) have no respect or rights for women or female children.

In Arab countries (with rare exception), and with the blessing of Koranic laws of their lands, there's rampant abuse of women, murder of women, attacks on women, public whipping of women, some of the most serious discrimination against women known on the planet, all for engaging in things that Arab men are permitted to do. Arabs express intense hatred of women but claim it's for the good of the women.

The Koran itself promotes and blesses polygamy, which is a form of public economic, social and political humiliation against women, and Mohammed himself engaged in polygamy, of which some of it included marrying and having sex with female children (one in particular being documented in the Koran itself).

Christians and Jews are not perfect by any means, as they have ample flaws, which we in here love to point out, but Christians and Jews have prohibited polygamy, have passed laws, and are working towards the ending of discrimination and humiliation of women. As a woman, I cannot forget these things. If I were a man, perhaps I could overlook them because I wouldn't feel them so deeply.

[Burke888]

33. Disguisting

Thats is applaing