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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:17 AM
Original message
Pissedoffedness!!!...
Edited on Sun Feb-05-06 04:55 AM by Peter Frank
Someone, please tell me how this war is essentially different from Vietnam?

I don't expect many responses, because of the nature of my question; but it would be great to hear from people who are as pissed off as me.


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bigbrother05 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:53 AM
Response to Original message
1. Ya see, VietNam is in SE Asia, Iraq is in SW Asia!
Now I may not be a geography genius, but those are two different Asias, get it?

:sarcasm:

Thanks to SNL.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:00 AM
Response to Reply #1
2. Well, That's Different... ;) n/t
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
3. no draft
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nookiemonster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 07:27 AM
Response to Reply #3
8. Perhaps, it's time.
Until Jack and Jill's Republican kids get shipped off, involuntarily, I firmly believe that nothing will change.

It's ugly, but maybe it's the only way to turn this shit around.
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proud2BlibKansan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #8
11. Oh I believe you are right
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tritsofme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #8
14. Cut off your nose to spite your face?
I wouldn't let you or anybody send my draft age nephews off to that desert of death to prove a political point.

This wouldn't just affect "Republican parents" or kids.
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Punkingal Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:18 AM
Response to Original message
4. How about this....
We didn't spend Billions of dollars on a rebuilding program that never happened, as in Iraq. We didn't have a Vice-President whose company was getting richer all the time because of its defense contracts. Vietnam wasn's a personal vendetta of President Johnson's, as Iraq is of Bush's. I never heard during Vietnam that the troops didn't have the necessary equipment, as in lack of body armor now. It wasn't fought with the National Guard....we had a draft then. (National Guard back then was for people like Bush.) I could go on....but let me just say this. I NEVER expected in my lifetime to see a worse mistake than Vietnam was, but boy, was I wrong.
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:24 AM
Response to Original message
5. Well let's compare and contrast...

Similarities...

1. Civil war: Vietnam was a civil war. We thought it was about the global containment of Communism; we were wrong. It was certainly that, but just for us...not for the people living there. For them, it was a civil war.

1.a. Iraq is a civil war. Power abhors a vacuum. We topple the B'aathists; what' left in that regieme's place? Sunni, Shia, Kurds; all fighting it out. Iraq isn't a terrorist insurgency; it's factional infighting...Bush doesn't want to leave, because the moment he does, it's a 3-4 party full-blown civil war (if it isn't already)...possibly spreading in to a regional conflict involving the Syrians (to the West) the Iranians (to the East), the Turks (to the north and West), and maybe the Saudis and maybe even the Israelis. So, there's that prima-facia difference...the possibility of widening conflict.

2. We're actively involved: we've had any number of proxy wars in the last thirty years (Angola, Afghanistan in the 80's, Nicaragua, Honduras, etc) but only a few shooting wars where it wasn't over in a couple of weeks. There's a *big* tactical and operational difference between having The Big Red One on the ground, Marines in the surf, Naval Aviators in the Air, versus having 50 CIA guys cutting checks to the Mouhajadeen so's they can buy some Stingers. We were on the ground in Vietnam, and we're on the ground in Iraq.

That's pretty similar.

3. Our fleeting loyalties: we supported the regieme we ended up toppling in South Vietnam. We also supported Hussein in the 80's, before we toppled him. To be our friend before the end of the cold war, you could be a ruthless dictator just so long as you claimed to be anti-Communist. Now, you just have to claim to be anti-Terrorist. Just ask Musharraf; that cocksucker's ISI (intelligence) service essentially founded the Taliban; these days, Bush has him to the Rosegarden for tea.

4. We're divided here at home along pretty much the same lines we were in Vietnam. That's pretty similar.



The differences...

1. The environment: Vietnam isn't a desert, and it's not in the middle-east. Our opponents are completely different culturally. Why they fight is different, how they fight is different. How they're organized is different, how they're backed is different.

2. The spoils of war, and the world economy: Vietnam didn't really have anything we valued as a natural resource. Iraq does.

3. The rhetoric; it just seems more transparent and certainly much more laden with demagogurey to me. That's a personal take, but I think it's a difference in how all side's leadership speaks with their people; both us, and them. There's more heat to it, and it's sure louder. In the 60's, you got the news with your paper in the morning, and with dinner at 6:30 and only on three channels. Now...it's super-loud, and all the time.

4. The Media; before Clinton signed the TCA (the Telecommunications Act of 1996), there were more than five or six massive multi-nationals that had a voice on the air. These days, there's not. I'd also point out that some of these five or six multinationals double as military suppliers. Take NBC, for instance. They're owned by General Electic. GE makes nuclear engines for our fleets, makes gatling guns for our Blackhawks, and makes jet engines for our fighters. Guess what? At the highest corporate levels, they just love war. It's really good for business. And if you think that journalists aren't completely beholden to the business side of their businesses, you're daft.

I could go on, but it's gettin' really late here, and I've already ranted once this evening; it's kind of exhausting, but worth it. This whole direction for the country is just fucked, and it can't end well no matter how 'optimistic' the administration is.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 05:52 AM
Response to Reply #5
6. Great Post...
Topical & very pertinant...
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 07:57 AM
Response to Reply #6
10. Thanks - nice to know someone read it ;-)

I'll keep pounding the keyboard until a) I get arrested for sedition or b) it changes the world for the better. I just wish I could find a place where I wasn't preaching to the converted :)
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 04:21 AM
Response to Reply #5
12. dave123williams - I didn't give proper props to your post...
Edited on Tue Feb-07-06 04:22 AM by Peter Frank
You expressed (while exhausted) the dynamics in play extremely well; and I consider your thoughts a must-read.

I only disagree with you at the very end. I'm tired of being a pessimist (and you have no idea how fatalistic I was). I discovered that cynicism alone is too easy. Anyone can be a cynic -- just look around.

It takes courage to be an optimist.



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awoke_in_2003 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 06:02 AM
Response to Original message
7. "how this war is essentially different from Vietnam?"
Bush had a plan for getting out of vietnam :)
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dave123williams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 07:52 AM
Response to Reply #7
9. LOL - you trumped my screed in one sentence :)
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cornermouse Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 04:27 AM
Response to Original message
13. Difference?
Vietnam - Decent national job producing economy

Iraq, Iran, and whoever else Bush takes a fancy to invading - Economy completely trashed by Bush.
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Peter Frank Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 04:32 AM
Response to Reply #13
15. Good point...
No oil in Vietnam -- no point in occupying.
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