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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:29 PM
Original message
Thoughts on the Muhammed pictures uproar from my blog
As Norway are moving ever closer to our first suicide bombing attack, I thought I'd share this:
Check original article (with links) at http://have-a-rant.blogspot.com/



About those pictures

Everyone is of course now aware of how the entire Muslim world are up in arms and burning our flag - ours, and the Danish one - because of those pictures of the Prophet Muhammed.

In our case, the printing of said pictures was a pure act of provocation from the editor of a miniscule magazine - emanating from a ridiculously small Pentecostal sect - called, imaginatively, Magazinet. Most people have never heard of the rag nor its editor (with an exceedingly bad haircut to boot) Mr. Vebjørn Selbekk.

Mr. Selbekk's act of knowingly provocating the world's Muslim community now has caused our embassies in Syria and Lebanon to be torched and the wrath of the entire Muslim world to be unleashed upon us. And the rest of Norway to be collectively embarrased, obviously.

As you might understand I, and many others, are more than a little pissed at Mr. Selbekk for putting us in this, uh, delicate position.


However:

I can accept that, according to their beliefs, visualisation of the Prophet Muhammed is a grave offence to Muslims and that it would be courteous, even expected, of anyone interested in showing the proper respect towards Muslim beliefs to not do such a thing.

But we do have freedom of expression, you know.

And the freedom to express exactly what I want to (stopping short of embracing nazism or paedophilia) without fear of repecussions, threats, violence or even being killed is one right I'm willing to go to some lengths to defend. It is the pinnacle of any democratic and modern society.

The freedom of speech allows me, for example, to write in public what I think of Mr. Selbekk. If I happen to think that he's a great big religious bigot and probably more than a little bit of a racist, for example, I'm free to write just that. Hey, I just did. What are you going to do about it, Mr. Selbekk? Nothing, of course. That's the whole point.


Piss Christ

Fair enough. This "editor" of a magazine that hardly anyone reads has insulted the Muslim faith. Well, it's not that I would've expect him to stand by and watch his own God being insulted. I doubt very much, for example, that he had gotten up on his big white moral horse and gotten up on his self-righteous barricade when the famous exhibit "Piss Christ" caused an uproar of some magnitude back in 1987. This picture features a crucifix in a large cylinder of urine and, predictably, made the American religious right go ballistic (I see that some clever soul over at Wikipedia also has seen the connection between Piss Christ and the Muhammed uproar).

Piss Christ is not very nice, nor is it terribly artistic, in my opinion, even if I do see the artist's point of view. I find the picture to be disrespectful to the Christian faith and an unneccessary piece of work, even though I'm not a believer. Obviously, Andres Serrano, caused a massive uproar with Piss Christ. But did you see him having to go into hiding to escape death threats resulting from it? Was the item burnt by furious demonstrators? No, it wasn't, and even in the religiously nutty US of A, the matter was debated on a reasonably civilised level, notwithstanding the odd wobbly lower lip.


Out of all proportions

All over the Middle East, however, we have seen Norwegian and Danish flags being burnt. Our embassies have been torched and burnt to the ground. In Denmark, violent demonstrations and overt threats of suicide bombings and killings from some Muslim communities. The latter is, of course, something we've grown used to over the last years.

On a more silly note, the Iraqi government has refused economic relief from Norway and Denmark (ouch, that hurts, man. What are we going to do with our money now? You bastards!).

But this piece of news topped it all (apologies, you must understand Danish to appreciate the article, but trust me): The Egyptian government (that is to say, on an official level) are trying to tell our Governments what to print and not in our newspapers!

Well piss off! Our Mr. Selbekk might be a stupid man. No, strike that; he might be a very, very stupid, ignorant, two-faced, bad-haired, small-minded, hypocritical, bigoted, narrow-minded, religiously cryptofascistic little worm of a man.

The editor of Jyllandsposten in Denmark might be a sensationalistic, short-sighted idiot who might be better off cleaning toilets. I accept that and it's true, those pictures should not have been published. It was unnecessary and disrespectful.

But the way in which the Muslim world is reacting to this whole débacle is taking things beyond any reasonable level. For all our faults, we live in a (reasonably) educated society where some rights are basic, unquestionable and self-evident. We have a lot of clever people living in my country and a lot of stupid people. The genial thing is that they are all entitled to state their opinions. The Muslim counterparts to Vebjørn Selbekk seem to have a problem with that.

Mr. Selbekk will never be my friend, but on pure and basic principle I'm willing to defend the stupid, ignorant, two-faced, hypocritical, bigoted, narrow-minded, religiously cryptofascistic little worm of a man's right to be just that until I draw my last breath.

So let me do a Mark Renton for the "conservative" Muslims that may or may not be reading this:

Choose education. Choose embracing the ideas of the Enlightenment. Choose accepting the fact that torching diplomatic missions is not likely to get you anywhere. Choose taking into consideration that the countries' flags that you are now burning most likely are spending hundreds of millions of dollars every year in aid relief efforts to help your countries' economies. Choose to consider the thought that your ideas do not necessarily represent the Universal Truth. Choose to widen your perspective. Choose to spend half the energy you now use to hate Norway and Denmark on giving your women the same rights as men in your countries. Choose to wake up from your mideval point of view that anyone that offends you deserves to die or be mutilated.

Choose the understanding that torching embassies, wreacking havoc and making death threats when other people's opinions and actions go against what you believe yourself, is no way to behave in civilised fucking society.
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mark11727 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 03:59 PM
Response to Original message
1. Some religions seem to operate with two basic rules of conduct...
(1) If you are part of our religion, you must follow our rules.
(2) If you are NOT part of our religion, you must STILL follow our rules.



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tocqueville Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:15 PM
Response to Original message
2. Heja Norge...
but :

1) the attempt of discussing taboos (other religions could be involved) is not wrong in itself. Maybe it could have been done in another way, but I don't think that there was a "främlingfientligt avsikt" (xenophobic intention) in the JP. Most of the cartoons are harmless.

2) the story was "down" several months until it recently exploded. Since the vast majority of Arabic or Indonesian dwellers (let say 99%) don't read Danish or even European magazines, don't see what wasn't shown on TV and don't have access to the "internets", somebody had to tell them... but why ?

3) the climax has started in SECULAR areas (Gaz strip) and was initiated by the... Fatah then went on in Syria of all places (secular Saddam-type dictatorship) and in Syria influenced Lebanon. It's obvious that there is manipulation behind all this. Probably to show the West : we can mobilize masses so think twice before you invade Syria or Iran... note that the holiest palace at all has been the most silent : Saudi-Arabia !!!

4) interesting to note that the champion of "freedom", the US has practically sided with the critics...

Franlkly I wouldn't worry that much about all this. Norway has been through far worse days 65 years ago... And they made it heroically to the difference from the Swedes... but that's another story...

Ha det bra !
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 04:10 AM
Response to Reply #2
5. Some good points there
(1) I don't know which editorial decisions underlined the publishing of the pictures in Jyllandsposten. However as you and I both know (presuming you're Swedish; tjäna!) the xenophobic undercurrent of Danish public debate (what with those clever chaps at the Danish People's Party having brought neo fascism into the public discourse and all that). The relationship between natives and immigrants in Denmark has been strained for some time already. In terms of having a jihadist element among their Muslim population, also, they are far ahead of both Norway and Sweden.

As for Magazinet, though, the editor merely wanted to pick a fight with the Muslims and boy, did he get one.

(2) Apparently, imams from Scandinavian mosques have travelled the Middle East for the sole purpose of spreading the news of the Muhammed drawings. They may have an entirely reasonable justification for stirring up hatred like this, but I have not yet heard it.

(3) Extremely valid point you make there, of course. However I wouldn't expect the Saudis to allow any large-scale public riots against their business partners in Northern Europe. As for Syria I wholly suspect that the riots which caused the torching of the embassies were encouraged in some way by the authorities.

I don't think we're too worried, really, but as this conflict seems to be escalating by the hour, I am liking it ever less. And it's not as if anyone intent on blowing themselves up on the main street here in Oslo would have any trouble doing it. We're a transparent society.
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CJCRANE Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:17 PM
Response to Original message
3. Compare this with the Rushdie issue...
Back then muslim fundamentalists issued a death threat and Rushdie went into hiding but British embassies weren't attacked...

I think three things are different here...

The cartoons go to the core of muslim beliefs
They were reprinted all over Europe
Since the Rushdie affair we've had "Shock and Awe", "Bring it on", Abu Ghraib torture, Guanatanmo abuses, Falluja (phosphorus), "Extraordinary renditions", pissing on the holy book...in fact fact a pretty much non-stop list of crimes and abuses by the "coalition of the willing" over the years...

I don't agree with violence but I can see how fundamentalism and anti-Western viewpoints have risen exponentially as reaction to this.

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madrchsod Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-05-06 04:32 PM
Response to Original message
4. what i find interesting
is that there are only a few people in the muslim world that are going crazy over this and yet by the reports it would seem that this will lead to the end of the world as we know it. we all know that this does not represent the majority of the muslim world although i would rather imagine that many think it`s in really poor taste and other such adjectives but fall way short of outrage to burn down buildings. yes the same whack jobs here in the states go crazy about what they find offense regarding "their christ" but most people think it`s just poor taste...not much difference between the two now is there?
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 05:10 AM
Response to Reply #4
6. You could say that
Then again, with a Danish consulate in Indonesia having been attacked, this morning, a total of five diplomatic representations have been hit so far. Has that happened in the States before at all?

This is way, way over the top, and it doesn't seem to end anytime soon.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 07:01 AM
Response to Original message
7. And now it's Austria's turn
According to recent news sources. In Tehran. Wonderful.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 04:06 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. More from Tehran
Now the Danish embassy is set ablaze. 400 rioters having a go at it, and only now, after two hours, is the police employing teargas to disperse the crowd. Anyone care to defend the islamists?

The long term consequences of this whole situation might be grave, and it doesn't seem to calm down anytime soon.
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trigz Donating Member (679 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 03:32 AM
Response to Reply #9
12. Another update it is, then:
Just updating this thread as I learn of new attacks on our institutions abroad, if nothing else then the for record.

Norwegian peacekeeping troops in Afghanistan have been under attack from a local mob last night -

http://www.dagbladet.no/nyheter/2006/02/07/457059.html
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mogster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:44 AM
Response to Original message
8. Nice rant
This:
> Our Mr. Selbekk might be a stupid man. No, strike that; he might be a very, very stupid, ignorant, two-faced, bad-haired, small-minded, hypocritical, bigoted, narrow-minded, religiously cryptofascistic little worm of a man.

If I didn't already dislike him, this would tip me over the edge :evilgrin:
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kineneb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 04:41 PM
Response to Original message
10. and if all else fails,
we introduce the protesters to lutefisk,:evilgrin: Scandianavia's secret weapon.
(I couldn't resist.)

Thanks for the info.
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BurtWorm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 04:49 PM
Response to Original message
11. Perfectly put, all the way through.
:toast:

You hit several nails squarely on the head.

Here's to enlightenment, sensitivity, liberalism, free speech, atheism, freethinking, etc.!
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