Venzuela tightens free expression

[Fountain79]

Amendments to Venezuela’s Criminal Code that entered into force last week may stifle press criticism of government authorities and restrict the public’s ability to monitor government actions, Human Rights Watch said today.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/24/venezu10368.htm

[no_hypocrisy]

1. See? Chavez & *. do have something in common.

[Fountain79]

2. It is still far from being a crime to disrespect the president n/t

[gordianot]

5. Watch out for the 100% fan club.

The enemy of my enemy is not always.....oh well!

[Fountain79]

29. 100% fan club?

:wtf:

[seabeyond]

80. yup..... 100% n/t

[stepnw1f]

196. !00% Baby! (nt)

[radwriter0555]

59. Ahhh more demonization and character assassination of CHAVEZ! I just love

lies and propoganda about a good, decent leader that scares the CRAP out of DON the DON Rumsfeld.

[EFerrari]

69. Wtf is it with DU and Chavez? It's just bizarre.

I can understand why a smart brown progressive drives the wingers crazy but DU? :wtf:

[sarcasmo]

73. Chavez rules he in no way drives me as crazy as Dictator 43 does.

[radwriter0555]

83. People are conditioned to believing the headlines and not actually doing

research and forming their own opinions.

It still amazes me.

[ronnie624]

160. The Chavez attackers rarely level specific charges.

They use mostly repetitive propaganda memes such as "communist", "totalitarian", "dictator", "thug", "packed the courts", "suppressing freedom of speech", "ally of Castro" and so on. When their charges are specific, the links they provide seem to never support their claims. Their aim of course is to create a generally negative response to Chavez without having to provide any specific information.

The propagandists are clever and they know that most people will not investigate their accusations.

[clitzpah queen]

90. That's assuming that all DU members are sincere DU members

There seems to have been a huge influx of new members since the Alito-A-Thon -- many (not ALL) of whom I'm noticing posting anti-Cindy posts, anti-Chavez posts....other modify your crit of Dino Dems and even some Repubs. I think DU is seen as an EFFECTIVE hotbed for progressive organizing -- worthy of screwing with.

[1932]

93. That's my impression too.

[KittyWampus]

99. I've been here a hell of a lot longer then either of you and it's pathetic

that when faced with hypocracy and facts, some DU'ers need to try and use how long posters have been here as some sort or rationale.

[1932]

121. I'd love to see an informed, intelligent criticism of Chavez.

Most of it at DU is totally uninformed, reactionary, alarmist garbage which is lightly edited from the Doug Wildmon email blasts it copies.

I'll grant that some DU'ers who seem to like Democrats may fall for it unwittingly, but I don't think that their sincerity in believing bullshit is a good excuse for being uninformed. Another category are the doubters. The doubters cite the slightest of evidence and think they've engaged in a deep rhetorical exercise, but their rebuttals are usually just celebrations of their own skepticism. Skepticism alone isn't an argument and it isn't thoughtful. Both of those categories -- the sincerely uninformed and the content doubters -- seem to be vastly outnumbered by the intriguers.

[confludemocrat]

120. Mine too. Infiltration city n/t

[Tom Yossarian Joad]

199. Because many are still swirling under the idea that anything "Commie"

is the USSR, Mao or Kim Jung Il...

Of course, Monarchy's are cool again!

[iamthebandfanman]

78. ohhh yeah

you know that human rights network!
crazy right wing fundies!

</end sarcasm>

[radwriter0555]

84. Never heard of them. Their site is murky and convoluted at best with no

clear mission or purpose. Their reps are not well known, not clear in their motivation and there is no indication of their funding or who supports them.

Hitler used to slap fancy liberal sounding names on crap to make it believable... bush does the same thing.

I've never heard of this HRNI.org and their site fails to impress me at all, so I'm not giving them one iota of credibility.

What I know is what I know about Chavez.

He's a good man who is a great world leader.

[iamthebandfanman]

88. well

im pretty sure that the HRNI is operated outside of the united states, but im not positive.

[radwriter0555]

94. It is. They're apparently based in brussels. But, like I said, after

spending a little bit of time checking them out... all I really got was dead air.

Having never heard of them until referenced in making derogatory statements about Chavez, they don't sit very credibily with me.

I can be convinced otherwise if others have any information.

[KittyWampus]

97. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International Are "Murky" LOL

the hypocracy is really evident.

[1932]

130. They don't criticize corp activity because they get funding from corps.

And they're notably silent when antineoliberal politicians are victims of overreaching governments.

For example, in Mexico when the government was going to throw the anti-neoliberal mayor of Mexico City in jail for violation a court order preventing him from building an access road to a hospital, not a peep from HRW or Amnesty. Why? Perhaps they didn't want to jeopardize donations from companies with comfortable relationships with ex-Coke executive and Mexican president, Vincente Fox.

[katsy]

3. I'll see your link...

and raise you one.

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/13/global12428.htm


I wonder if HRW will set a complaint against Cindy Sheehan for wearing a T-Shirt to the SOTU.

[Fountain79]

4. The point of the post...

basically is to ask this question. Should the left embrace a man who does not support the ideas of free expression and the free exchange of ideas simply because he is a leftist? I think it honestly hurts the liberal cause to look at this man as a role model, when he is simply another Latin American dictator.

P.S. I was inspired to make this thread based on what I had read on http://www.thismodernworld.com/

[katsy]

10. Chavez was elected by his people.

His opponents were openly advocating his assassination (presumably a CIA funded coup to overthrow a duly elected leader - Chavez).

And before we throw stones... we should get our own house in order instead of sticking our noses into the affairs of legitimately elected leaders who happen to smack down big-oil companies.

Instead of all this the sky is falling in Venezuela crap... tell us who is in jail right now for exercising their right to freedom of speech in Venezuela.

[demosincebirth]

50. I have a feeling that he is going to be hard to unelect

[formernaderite]

77. agreed....I had high hopes for him

and was elated when he was first elected, but I do think many of us were duped. This sort of stuff always makes me cringe and suspect. I know there will be a bunch of Chavez defenders jumping down everyone's throat over this, and how Bush is worse. BFD....Chavez is starting to sound paranoid.

[1932]

89. You're disappointed that he gets reelected by greater margins?

[katsy]

190. The only "feelings" that count...

or should count, are the feelings of the people that elected Chavez.

No government will be perfect. Chavez is not perfect. But he has been elected by the people of Venezuela. End of story.

I do not subscribe to the politics of overthrowing governments based on feelings. Nor will I demonize that leader if he is working on the behalf of the poor at the expense of the elite. The elite have the means to fend for themselves.

If we are to concern ourselves... or inject ourselves into the politics of other countries, then let it be those countries where there are autrocities against the populations (genocide). I do not consider corporate welfare a fair or just reason to oppose foreign leaders. Big oil and the Venezuelan elite oppose Chavez. Too freaking bad. That should NOT be our problem.

If Chavez raises the standard of living for the majority of Venezuelans and they elect him again and again... so much the better for them. It's a rare quality in this day and age that the poor have anyone working on their behalf.

[JohnnyCougar]

27. The HRW report totally mischaracterizes the law.

The law was intended to stop racist propaganda attacks from the private media in Venezueala, which still owns 4 out of 5 media outlets over there. The anti-Chavez private media was playing racially charged propaganda uninterrupted for days at a time to inspire violent protests and a coup attempt.

Sorry, but HRW is wrong on this one.

[Behind the Aegis]

66. HRW seems to be wrong on many things. n/t

[leftchick]

67. Thank you for the clarity Johnny

this does get tiresome doesn't it?

[fishwax]

51. simply another Latin American dictator? He was elected. n/t

[Pastiche423]

56. Something I don't think I'll ever understand...

Statements like - "Should the left embrace..."

I don't know about anyone else, butI make up my own mind about things after doing my own research.

I do not lockstep. I don't give a shit about what others may think.

In this case, I say... VIVA CHAVEZ!

[1932]

96. Why should a law passed by the Venezuelan legislature according to their

constitutional procedures for passing laws (and reviewing laws -- it will be subject to Supreme Court review) mean that Chavez, a leader obviously committed to helping the poor and working people of Venezuela through the implementation of anti-neoliberal and anti-Washington Consensus policies, is a bad president?

[High Plains]

184. "simply another Latin American dictator"

How many monitored elections must the man win before you quit calling him a dictator?

Who says Chavez does not support free speech? Maybe you could tell me something about the role of the Venezuelan corporate media in attempting to overthrow an elected president? There is a difference between free speech and inciting the overthrow of the government.

[KittyWampus]

104. Most DU'ers object to human rights abuse when propagated by the US

and one would think Intellectual Consistency would require they at least ADMIT and be willing to lament when similar tactics are used by OTHER COUNTRIES.

Regardless is it's a Leftist. Tyranny is Tyranny.

It's really sad that some DU'ers are happy with the "but Johnny does it too" defense.

Many DU'ers have essentially lost all moral authority by blindly embracing Chavez and his tactics. And have NO RIGHT To criticize Bush and the NeoCons for theirs.

[hfojvt]

107. that is not what Johnny said

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=331046&mesg_id=331309

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

118. So, during the 90s all the police brutality cases, the servicemen

rape cases overseas, excesses in Waco, etc. The bombing of Vieques with depleted uranium and constant abuse of of Vieques residents by the Navy. It was all Bill Clinton's fault right?

[1932]

126. That is an excellent point, and similar to the one I tried to make

to that post.

Can we be smarter in how we attribute responsiblity for these things? Can we have a better sense of what different kinds of government (neoliberal and antineoliberal) do for their people?

Doubting for the sake of doubting -- treating uniformed skepticism -- as noble quality is just stupid.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

137. I've been hearing from my Venezuelan friends and

acquittance's about the daily ass whuppings people would get from the cops and national guard. Especially in Caracas. This is way before Chavez. I'm talking about when I was a kid. I wish Mr Chavez would fire everybody and start fresh. How easy is that? Not at all. Venezuelan police and armed forces are systematically corrupt and it will take time to clean it up.

[1932]

125. Most people properly attribute them to the people responsible and have

a better sense of how, why and when governments abuse human rights.

Explain to me -- even in just a fact-free, semi-fictional narrative form -- how, when and why the Chavez government would have a secret plan to systematically abuse human rights?

Don't you know that the two presidents before Chavez, Venezuela had a government willing to kill protestors in order to carry on with Washington Consensus economic policies? Don't you know that the current government exists to represent the interests of the vast majority of Venezuelans who were harmed by those policies? Don't you know that the media has no problem broadcasting their anti-Chavez message without any recourse at all (except that some people in the media are suspects in the murder of Danillo Anderson), which make it extremely unproductive to have a secret, systematic program for human rights abuses? Don't you know that, in terms of rooting out longstanding corruption spanning decades within the local and state police forces the phrase "Rome wasn't built in a day" and that it would never be built at all if Venezuela had a pro Wall Street, neoliberal government (see Bolivia as an example of what would happen).

[High Plains]

185. I will object to human rights abuses by any government.

Chavez is not exempt. All governments require scrutiny.

The problem with these threads is they fail to acknowledge the huge propaganda effort going on against the Venezuelan government. False charges, distorted charges, half-truths, and no mention of the subversive (in the literal sense) role played by the Venezuelan corporate press in attempting to overthrew the democratically elected government headed by Chavez.

In fact, many of these threads seem to be part of that propaganda campaign.

Yeah, tyranny is tyranny. I don't Chavez qualifies, though.

[1932]

198. Furthermore, the connection between Chavez and the alleged abuses is

incredibly tenuous.

It's like blaming JFK for what happened at the U of Miss.

[Nutmegger]

6. *sigh*

I refer you to the offical Chavez debunking thread.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=311462&mesg_id=311462

[Fountain79]

7. again..

I found this link on This Modern World's website. How rightwing is that?

[Mr_Spock]

52. So it must be the final word on the subject

then?

[Judi Lynn]

65. Apparently the author, Greg Saunders, could use some time educating

himself first, before offering his opinion.

I took a look to see what this source is. I don't find it impressive, and it's surely not informed. Nice try.
http://www.thismodernworld.com/

[gordianot]

17. Thanks I am glad to know that. Bye

[Viva_La_Revolution]

23. from that OP...

(talking point) Chavez is attempting to censor political speech and take control of the Venezuelan media.

After the corrupt right-wing media in Venezuela inspired a coup, kidnapping and later a ridiculous attempt to recall Chavez, as well as violent protests, Chavez made an anti-slander law to curb the false propaganda the private media was spreading. While no one, to my knowledge has been arrested for violating this law, it has worked to curb some of the anti-Chavez propaganda and racist remarks made in the private Venezuelan media. When asked in October if Chavez would actually arrest anybody with this law, he responded: "I am not going to accuse anyone because they insult me, I don’t care if they call me names, I don’t care what they say about me. Generally I do as Don Qixote said, if the dogs are barking it’s because we are working." Furthermore, there are many opposition media outlets in Venezuela, and only one state-owned outlet. Chavez could shut the opposition channels down, but he doesn't. He just limits the racist, riot-causing propaganda they usually encourage.

[eggman67]

8. Woo hoo.

:beer: :popcorn:

[Crazy Guggenheim]

19. Hey eggman67. How ya doin'?

:popcorn: :popcorn:

[Nutmegger]

22. .

[Crazy Guggenheim]

26. This is going to be interesting .......

:popcorn: :popcorn: :popcorn:

[libnnc]

9. so whadda you want to do, invade him?

Has he done anything to us?

Oh wait...there was that donating lots of oil for poor old folks up north so they wouldn't freeze to death this winter thing...does that count?

[Fountain79]

11. I thought knee-jerk responses were the work of Freepers...

Apparently it can happen here too.

[libnnc]

12. just stating a fact, Jack.

if he hasn't done anything to hurt us, then why the fuck do you care about him?

[Fountain79]

13. At the same time...

why look upon him as a saint?

[libnnc]

14. who's calling him a saint?

your words, Sparky.

[Fountain79]

18. How many posts....

have been on DU praising this man?

[libnnc]

20. So now you're taking a tally?

Who cares?

[me b zola]

53. That's pretty scarry

Do you keep a score sheet of people who have a positive opinion of Chavez??? :scared:

[rman]

116. Many - for good reason. But NONE calling him a saint.

[Fountain79]

15. link on This Modern World

http://thismodernworld.com/2666

This is where I found the Human Rights Watch link.

[BrotherBuzz]

46. Human Rights Watch - another slant and perspective

HRW was set up by the United States government to monitor human rights in Eastern Europe following the signature of the Helsinki Accords. Initially, the group was called Helsinki Watch (NB: there is a British group with the same name – specializes in monitoring elections…). The United States used Helsinki Watch for propaganda purposes, and to amplify the "human rights" contradictions in the former Soviet Union and Eastern Europe. In this it was singularly successful, and it led to the broadening of HRW to cover additional regions. HRW-Americas, etc. and it also spun off the Index on Censorship, the latter to monitor abuses of "freedom of the press". HRW may claim that it is independent and nongovernmental, but its origins inidicate that these properties were absent.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Human_Rights_Watch

[Fountain79]

47. yeah total propaganda machine of the government

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/13/global12428.htm

:sarcasm:

[0rganism]

194. You really should read through that HRW Global Report for 2006

especially the parts about Latin America. I have, so can you.

There's some stuff in there that makes the sum total of criticisms of Chavez seem very, very tiny and small indeed.

Dare to compare? Check out what's happened in Colombia, a nation that receives BILLIONS in military funding from the USA. These are Chavez's next-door neighbors, in case you didn't know. If the worst rap HRW has on Hugo Chavez is that the elected legislature of Venezuela has been stacking the courts and regulating the press, then Viva Chavez.

The title alone should be a hint on where to direct your criticisms:
Human Rights Watch World Report 2006
U.S. Policy of Abuse Undermines Rights Worldwide

[Deja Q]

16. The only difference between * and Chavez is how they deal w/the poor.

At least right now; is Chavez' help for the poor truly altruistic, or a cheap political ploy?

On the plus side, we all know what Bush thinks and does. No confusion there.

[seabeyond]

32. i think i am with you. from what i gather it is a wait and see

no way i am going to give alliance to this man yet, he is still building and creating, who know where he is going to go with this. character wise and listening to him as a speaker doesn't give me a lot of confidence. but again, we will have to wait and see. certainly not claiming dictator, or we need ot invade, or inter fer in anyway.

poster on another thread said she is not ready to say viva le Chavez just yet

i agree

[JohnnyCougar]

21. Mischaracterization of the law.

Are you aware that about 90% of the media there is anti-Chavez, and broadcasts racist, riot-causing propaganda that has caused coup-attempts? Is HRW aware of the political context of this law? Is Tom Tomorrow? It doesn't sound like it.

[Fountain79]

24. So if 90% of the media would be characterized as anti-Bush

that would give the government permission to enact lawas restricting criticsm of the government?

[libnnc]

28. Dude, most of Chavez's right-wing critics....

have used their media to say really racist things about him. It's the racial aspect that he wants to quell.

[KoKo]

43. As much as I admire Human Right's Watch they have a "Thing" about

Chavez. I heard a conference they had on C-Span where they were identifying human rights abuses across the world and they went down heavy on Chavez so much so they reminded me of a Right Wing Think Tank.

I thought it was uncalled for since it sounded so Right Wing. I haven't done a Google on HRW's membership...but I wouldn't be surprised to find that there might be some agenda with Chavez.

Otherwise I think they do good stuff reporting abuses. It's a hard call because I know Bush and the RW HATE Chavez..and it makes me wonder why they hate him so much that HRW would parrot them.

I personally like Chavez and what he's trying to do for his people. If Bush wanted to assassinate him twice he must be doing something good there.

[sadiesworld]

189. HRW has close ties to the neoliberal US foreign policy elite...

and Chavez is opposed to neoliberalism. I don't think it's a coincidence that HRW has been pounding Venezuela and Iran recently. It's an area worthy of looking into, IMHO.

[JohnnyCougar]

30. It's not just criticism. It's racist propaganda they were spreading.

Chavez hasn't arrested anyone to my knowledge with that law. But it has kept the propaganda to a minimum.

[Fountain79]

31. Man...it sounds kinda like...

When a right winger says..."Show me whose rights have been trampled because of the patriot act".

[seabeyond]

34. i read they protect tv for child program. that is in effect from 5am-11pm

meaning if the news wants to put on a shooting of a protestor has to go on after 11 and brfore 5. creative programming

[me b zola]

54. The more you post,

the more it sounds as though you're not from around this neck of the woods.

[Fountain79]

57. Yeah..

I am not from Portland...

[libnnc]

33. I've got a feeling

no amount of facts will make a difference.

I'm sleepy.

:crazy:

[Fountain79]

35. Kinda like...

no amount of facts will change some people's favorable opinion of Chavez?

[libnnc]

39. your "facts" are without context

"Cherry picking" so-called "intelligence" is a lousy way to conduct foreign policy.

[killbotfactory]

38. If they provoked riots and engaged in a coup against the president

That then liquidated the constitution once in power... then you know, maybe they should have their freedoms to engage in such behaivor restricted?

[rman]

70. It's not just about being "anti", it's about spreading slanderous lies

to incite riots.

[Nutmegger]

25. I posted the link to the Chavez debunking thread

You can lead a horse to water but you... Oh...I forgot the rest.

Maybe it's time to give it a niceeeee:kick:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

55. I even posted the relevant part of that post...

Here horsie, horsie! :shrug:

[killbotfactory]

36. This happened nearly a year ago

How many people are in jail for "defaming" Chavez or any other government official?

I know the media there hates the idea of not being able to broadcast lies, and provoke riots, so how are they coping?

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1426
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1349
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1464
http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/articles.php?artno=1605

[seabeyond]

37. though chavez does have his govt run station from tax payers money

that has now connected with al jazerah and another countries commication. but it is true it appears much of the media is held by companies and people that oppose him. he does have restriction on them though, regardless of validation we give to chavez, and may be totally valid, it is restriction to freedom of press. tis a fact. as far as how many have been jailed, dont know. i think they are taking it seriously and are not challenging the law, that is the feel i got in my readings.

[killbotfactory]

41. It seems more like he's taking away their freedom

to shout "fire!" in a crowded theater.

[rman]

111. Do you think the Fairness Doctrine was a restriction to freedom of press?

That's exactly what the RW argued.

It restricted the ability of the press to present biased stories.

It's like saying environmental regulations are a restriction to corporations' right to make profit.

Certain restrictions are warranted, don't you agree?

[seabeyond]

124. wow this goes in circles to meet agenda

yes it is fine he has a govt run news station. tax money paid. so dont exclude when telling the story. do they meet the same restriction in their presentation as this law puts on opponent media. i would like to know. just a guess, probably not

can chavez restrict press to avoid unrest, you betcha. call it what it is. he restricts opponents voice. is it just that he is restricting the calling for revolution though, or all critizism? dont you think it matters. has he totally shut down any objectionable voice to him, and allows a station of propaganda. i would think this would at least be worth an investigation on this board.

certain restrictions warranted,? .... well then, i dont think we ought to question cindy's arrest for a tshirt. you have such an all over the place argument it doesnt leave much room for speech at all.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

129. TAX PAYER MONEY???? OH THE HORROR SAY IT AIN'T SO.

Actually if you're referring to Telesur it's a combination of private and state owned stations with support from Cuba, Argentina, Uruguay and Brazil. Every day I read and watch the bullshit put out by the right wing opposition. How are they being muzzled again?

[seabeyond]

136. and al jezerAH

what bullshit??? and what rw are you yelling about>????

listen to you. it is true. you agree and then you call it bullshit. that makes sense????

how many people knew about this station. because before i read on venz and hugo all i heard was ALL media was opponents. that is all i heard. i didn't know about this stations. is there a reason to hide it. does it make the argument better for chavez. because i think we should also know there is a govt run station..... you harp on rw. what kind of sense does this make. now you are saying, suggesting, we ought to only present certain things in talking about chavez here in u.s.. bringing his restrictions all the way to this shore.

so, bet i get called a repug. watch....

edit spelling

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

142. The yelling was intended to convey the emotion. It was a joke (get it?).

I can't understand what you're saying. Seriously, not being a smart ass.
PBS is run with tax payer money and contributions. So what? Every country has at least one government station. This is a satellite and cable station like CNN.

What about Al-Jazeera?

[seabeyond]

147. i needed the information when i was researching hugo

i am trying to be fair, honest and informed. i think it is important to watch what is happening with govt run station. yes we have pbs. russia also had govt run media. recently, like days ago i believe hugo connected with aljezerah. i think that is important information. i have no bias to aljezerah. another... i like to be informed of, but not good/bad going on. it is what it is

i think it might be important to watch what is happening with the media in venz. that doesnt make me anti chavez, rw, or anything else. it is merely information.

i did not know the man had a station. pro cahvez has never shared he has a station.

i am sharing.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

153. I didn't call you anti anything or r this or that. You didn't seem to have

the facts or right so I replied. If it offends you I won't reply to you then.

[High Plains]

187. Al Jazeera is a news service.

Do you want to censor it?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

143. I wasn't agreeing and then calling it bullshit. I was clarifying your

explanation about the satellite station. I was also laughing because we have a government run station too. Every country does.

[seabeyond]

148. and every country uses it differently. that is relevent

again it is also relevent to know, at least know..... i didnt. people arguing for chavez didnt know he had a station. they were of the belief ALL media was professing revolution at every turn. i dont know how reality based that belief is.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

151. He doesn't have a station. It's a Latin American station. n/t

[seabeyond]

152. ahhhh. ok. n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

154. Now channel 8 in Venezuela belongs to the government it always has.

Telesur is a joint venture.

[seabeyond]

159. look, you bull horned me with outrage from your first post

and you have backed all the way to this. i didnt know there were other media source because the pro cahvez agenda has purosely been to keep that out of the argument.

i dont care how it develops, who has what.....but the story we are being told by the pro cahvez is not complete. that is irresponsible in my book. i am not pro cahvez. i am not anti chavez. the argument is NOT black and white for me. i am comfortable in gray.

we dont know where the man is going and what he is creating. it is not betraying the left or his cause to be wary, with some of the stuff he implements nor a lot of the things he says. in my view, that is just being informed. i will never squander my right for information

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

166. What are you talking about? You don't seem to

have the slightest idea about Venezuela and you're getting on me about what again? Now you totally lost me. If you know what the hell you were talking about. You would have known that channel 8 has been their version of PBS for a long time. If you followed the other Chavez threads for the last few years you would know that during the coup channel 8 was the only outlet the administration had to counter CNN and Globovision's lies. Until soldiers shot it down. That is no secret. I've seen tons of references to channel 8. It really is no secret to anybody that knows anything about this situation.

What is your point about this channel?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

173. I don't even know if you're talking about Telesur or Canal 8 anymore.

Frankly, I don't think you know the difference. What is your problem with either or both of these anyway?

[High Plains]

186. "He has totally shut down any objectionable voice to him."

Try practicing your Spanish by reading the Venezuelan press. It doesn't seem especially cowed.

Maybe if you tried that you would have some idea what you're talking about.

[NYCGirl]

40. Here's some more information:

http://infovenezuela.org/cap4_en_3.htm

[JohnnyCougar]

48. This is an article put out by a group that supported the coup.

The US right-wing fascists were funneling money to these people to help overthrow Chavez. Not a reliable source.

[killbotfactory]

49. Interesting...

The first two journalists mentioned were active during the coup attempt...

"We had a deadly weapon: the media. And now that I have the opportunity, let me congratulate you." In Caracas, on April 11, 2002, just a few hours before the temporary overthrow of Venezuela’s President, Hugo Chavez, Vice Admiral Victor Ramirez Perez congratulated journalist Ibeyise Pacheco live on Venevision television. Twenty minutes earlier, when Pacheco had begun to interview a group of rebel officers, she could not resist admitting, conspiratorially, that she had long had a special relationship with them.

At the same time, in a live interview from Madrid, another journalist, Patricia Poleo, also seemed well informed about the likely future development of "spontaneous events." She announced on the Spanish channel TVE: "I believe the next president is going to be Pedro Carmona." Chavez, holed up in the Presidential Palace, was still refusing to step down.

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:IW634ZMbDjEJ:www.reclaimthemedia.org/stories.php%3Fstory%3D04/08/15/5081287+Ib%C3%A9yise+Pacheco,&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=14

[Judi Lynn]

68. Great article. Thanks for posting the link. n/t

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

81. While you're at it why not post some Newsmax articles on Howard Dean? nt

[NYCGirl]

86. I don't like Newsmax articles, but I will defend to the death their right

to publish them. Which, it seems, doesn't apply to Venezuela.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

98. Are you kidding me???? Every day the Venezuelan right wing

media has a bunch of bullshit articles and even photoshopped pictures of Chavez to push their lies. We don't post Newsmax bullshit here because it's not reliable. Neither is Súmate (Roger Noriega whores that they are). You don't seem to be very informed about Venezuela with that reply you posted.

[NYCGirl]

101. We don't post Newsmax bullshit here because we're a Democratic board.

But I still defend their right to publish.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

102. What the hell are you talking about? n/t

[NYCGirl]

105. I'm talking about Freedom of Speech. What're you talking about? NT

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

106. The freedom of speech to daily criticize Mr Chavez and even lie

about him. Last time I checked it was still there I read the articles daily in Spanish. You're not saying anything or apparently even reading before replying. Do you not understand that these people own 99% of the media and have a daily hate fest about the Chavez administration? Oh well....... peace out.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

108. BTW I use Newsmax as a comparison to the source you posted.

Just in case you didn't get that.

[1932]

109. Here's an article about a recent implementation of the law:

http://www.venezuelanalysis.com/news.php?newsno=1876

And it seems a little more complicated than Chavez detractors would like.

This is a case where a federal prosecutor was murdered. The suspects include people who work for the state media. The state media is doing everything it can to undermine the credibility of witnesses against them. So a judge with a record of ruling in favor of the opposition suspects actually applied the censorship laws to injunct the media from reporting on the witnesses at this stage of the investigation.

There are definitely free speech issues at stake, but there are also fair trial issues as well (and in the US, mind you, the media coopearates with the state so as not to undermine criminal investigations sometimes, and other times, they have cooperated with the powerful to undermine prosecutions -- I am thinking of Oliver North's overturned convictions, in particular).

So this is a balancing point that all free socieities have to deal with, and in Venezuela it's a little different because the people who control the media are also the people being criminally investigated -- they don't just have interests in common with the suspects, they are the suspects -- and the media have a great deal of cultural power in Venezuela which they can use to avoid prosecution.

And ultimately, this law, passed by the legislature, will be subject to Supreme Court review. If it's declared unconstitutional, the Chavez government can feel simpatico with FDR who was confronted with many of the same power imbalances that they tried to tip towards a more just alignment with tools that the Supreme Court eventually overturned.

[murray hill farm]

42. Please note that...

it says "May stifle" !!!

[EC]

44. From what I understand 90% of the Press there is owned

by the same people who tried to get him out of office a couple years ago...

[killbotfactory]

45. by the same people who participated in the coup against him

they bragged about how they managed the coup on TV, when it was apparently successful.

[Swamp Rat]

58. I'm more worried about the tightening of free expression in America

Why aren't you?

edit:... ¿O es porque ud. es venezuelano?

[LittleClarkie]

60. Oh, but that's the Right Wing press, so it's okay, doncha know

You see, as long as it's the Right Wing, and they dare to mock and offer propaganda against this great man, then it's okay if he abrogates their free speech. It's still a democracy, see, because he was elected and stuff.

Imagine though, if the same logic was used on any Left Wing press who dared to mock our president and offer "propaganda" against him (as one man's propaganda is another man's truth). I suppose, using the same rules and logic, ol' Bunnypants would be justified in acting in just the same way as Prez Chavez.

But it's okay when Chavez does it, you understand, because he's on "our" side.

:sarcasm:

[JohnnyCougar]

61. And I suppose you would consider propaganda that caused violence ok

if it was broadcast in the US by Fox News. This is not simple propaganda. They were organizing coups, violent protests and taunting Chavez for being "brown" on TV. They even bragged about causing the coup (with the help of the Bush Administration).

[LittleClarkie]

62. How often have I seen here

people asking where the revolution was? How often do we make fun of the Southern states, or religious folks, or the looks of the people we hate in the government, or even whether or not we think they are gay?

Free speech is free speech. If someone advocated revolution against Bush, would you be for or against. That is the question. I am just against hypocracy, is all.

[JohnnyCougar]

63. Nobody is organizing coup attempts and violence here.

LittleClarkie, I don't doubt your morals. I know you have high moral standards for people, and that is fine. But I don't think you realize what Chavez is up against. This isn't the typical "left-wing"/"right-wing" debate over there. The right wing is violent over there. The anti-Chavez stuff they put on TV is absolutely horrible, and would be banned here, too. I don't think that he is opressing legitimate debate and opinion. It's not like he interferes with peaceful protests.

[Swamp Rat]

64. The "right wing" is violent over here too.

Just ask folks from New Orleans.

[rman]

71. How often have you seen the MSM telling us we need a revolution?

Not to mention that the supposed reasons for a RW revolt in Venezuela are lies.
Comparing Venezuelan corporate MSM to DU is comparing apples to oranges.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

72. All you knee-jerk anti-Chavez types

I dare you to see "The Revolution Will Not Be Televised." I double-dare you. It's out on DVD.

Yes, the filmmakers were pro-Chavez. There's no denying that. They were asked to come from Ireland to do a documentary about Chavez's reforms, and they just happened to be there during the coup.

There's also no denying that the anti-Chavez forces condemn themselves with their own words and actions.

After the coup, they actually hold a press conference in which they declare that they have "restored democracy" by arresting the president and Cabinet, dissolving the national legislature and the Supreme Court, and shutting down the government broadcasting media.

Before the coup, they come off as country club Republicans who are miffed because their servants have become uppity.

There's also no denying that the coup leaders had to back down because Chavez's supporters poured into the street by the hundreds of thousands, surrounded the presidential palace, and were let in by a sympathetic guard.

Also watch the clip on Truthout. It covers both a government-run soup kitchen for the poor AND an anti-Chavez demonstration. The people in the anti-Chavez demonstration look decidedly affluent. One even has an American accent.

Is Chavez a saint? No, but he's not a devil, either, and he's got a lot of popular support. The opposition, like our own Republicans, are extremely sore losers and are taking their cue from the Bushies.

So why are we being treated to nearly daily "I'm appalled that the left is supporting Chavez" threads, exactly at the same time that the Bush administration is waging a propaganda offensive against him? Verrrrry interesting--but transparent.

I'm 55 years old, and I've seen it all before--including accusations that the Sandninistas in Nicaragua were anti-Semitic. This later proved to be a complete fabrication by John Negroponte, one of the nastiest of the neo-cons.

I have to wonder if either he or the lizard-like Eliot Abrams is behind this latest campaign.

[Mika]

74. Lydia L, please tell me where I can get the DVD.

I've been trying for a while. No luck.

I even started a thread looking for it..

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x327386


No luck getting a DVD on that thread either.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

76. Netflix apparently has it

:shrug:

I don't suppose that one's local Blockbuster will be inclined to carry it.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

79. Actually it's not. Netflix shows it in their site but you can't order it.

I emailed the filmmakers a while back and the were still working on releasing it. Amnesty International was going to screen it as part of some kind of movie festival but caved under outside pressure. The bast way to get it is either download from emule or bittorent and burn it onto a disc. Hell I did it and would be glad to mail to anybody that wants it.

[iamthebandfanman]

82. lol

i dont think anyone is saying the opposition is in the the right, but i dont think people should idolize someone like chavez either.

Its another country.
can we focus on our own?

[Lydia Leftcoast]

85. I'm not the one who keeps starting threads

about how DUers shouldn't support Chavez.

[iamthebandfanman]

87. well

neither am i.

[1932]

91. Why shouldn't progressives like Chavez?

[Bridget Burke]

92. I don't "Idolize" Chavez--but why are so many trying to "demonize" him?

Upon further consideration, I think I know.

[iamthebandfanman]

110. maybe i should ask u

why are you trying to put him into godly status ?

im not trying to put him down at all, but i dont understand why hes worshipped.
because he agrees bush is a bastard?
i think alot of people agree on that.

[rman]

112. Defending against slander and RW propaganda is hardly

"trying to put him into godly status"

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

113. Well to be honest I did put a statue of him in my living room.

I bring it daily rum offerings. I pray to him but I still worship Joe Pesci.

[rman]

117. i'm going to get one of those Chavez action figures

i though i heard about it on truthout multimedia, on second thought i'm not sure where i heard it.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

119. I'm also hoping to get in the near future,

the John Conyers action figure "Now with subpoena power".

[1932]

114. Godly? I'll put him in this status: goodly anti-neoliberal, anti-poverty

president who understands exactly what the power imbalances are in his country and is brilliantly realligning them so that there is more balance and justice.

He's doing it in a way that is smarter and more effective than just about any politician in the last century other than FDR.

That's an opinion. But I strongly believe that it's an argument that is irrefutable.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

115. Dude, come on. I know you want that t-shirt. Stop pretending . n/t

[1932]

122. When you said that you had a statue of him, I was so jealous because

I only ever aspired to the T-shirt. You opened my eyes to how low I've set the bar for my hero-worshipping.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

123. Is it weird that as a married man I tattooed his face on my chest?

Nooo, why would it be?

[1932]

128. Would it be weird if I named all my children "Hugo Chavez"? Even if they

were girls?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

132. LOL. Wait, I can't stop laughing..... No that's perfectly normal. Maybe

girls could be named Huga.

[1932]

134. Hugotta?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

139. OMG, that's one hideous name. LOL. N/T

[iamthebandfanman]

138. i dunno

we both dont live there so who are we to say either way ?

its easy to have a political view of another country when you dont live there.

like you say, he has done great things for the poor , but i dont know if that means everyone should lay down and accept that he can do no wrong.
i just dont believe that.
and anyone who does is a moron.
sorry, but thats the truth.
for all we know theres a hidden agenda. everyone seems to have one these days, so im curious to see what his is.

time will tell what kind of leader he is.
besides, ITS NOT OUR COUNTRY.
lets fix ours, shall we ?

[1932]

141. You don't know because YOU'RE UNINFORMED!

Go read a book or ten. Come back and tell us what you learned.

[iamthebandfanman]

146. why dont you inform me

since you obviously know everything.

so tell me
besides helping the poor and nationalisn corporations
what has he done ?

how is the middle class doing?
is he trying to establish a large middle class?

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

155. What corporation did he nationalize? There was a middle class

in Venezuela long ago. It seems to have all but disappeared during the late 70s. Hopefully it will come back.

[iamthebandfanman]

183. i c

Venepal and the Fabrica Nacional de Valvulas.

i wondered about the middle class because often change is caused when the middle class feels neglected and there is a large population that is poor.
i thought maybe he had a platform of a large middle class and thats why he was popular.

[1932]

192. Those companies weren't nationalized. They are worker-owned in partnership

with the goverment and they would be out of business if not for that fact.

They haven't nationalized a single industry in Venezuela. However, they made it a law that the "brains" of the oil company must remain nationalized as it was when Chavez took office.

[1932]

191. Why do you have such firmly held uninformed opinions?

Usually when people admit they don't know anything, they're much less strident in their opinions?

[gordianot]

205. Ding**Ding**Ding** Correct answer**we don't live there let's fix ours.

Too many confuse politics and religion these days. left and right

There was a day people felt the same way about Uncle Joe. Time will tell.

[Bridget Burke]

127. Gosh, "Idolatry" is the Topic of the Day!

I'm not trying to put give Chavez "godly status"! He's Venezuela's elected leader & has done more for the Venezuelan people than most of their past governments. He's not perfect. Who is?

You tell ME why he's being Demonized! Besides the oil, that is...

[SidDithers]

75. Present tense is kinda misleading...

since this happened last March.

Sid

[jzodda]

95. The Hugo lovers don't care

No matter how anti democratic he eventually becomes, and its slowly happening, he will be defended around here just because hes anti-bush. Castro also always has and had his defenders also. People do not seem to get that democracy can also be used as a tool against democracy. Especially when you have an unstable country to begin with. Get voted in and then make sure you stay in. One of these days this guy is going to name himself President for life or some other scheme but people around here will still want his teeshirt.

Funny that instead of concern about what was said in the link, people in this thread want to figure out the funding of Human Rights Watch instead. Its the usual, tired old junk-lets shoot the messenger.

From the link: "Anyone who gravely offends the president, on the other hand, can incur a penalty of up to 40 months in prison."

Chilling effect on free speech? On the Press? Nahhhhhh They still want his tee shirt.

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

100. I'm going to post this for the 1000th time. I don't give a fuck

what he thinks about bush. Never have. I've been following events in Venezuela since before CHavez got elected in 1999. So please spare us the automated bullshit response. Thank you.

[jzodda]

133. So what who cares if you have been following him since birth

and please spare us YOUR automated bullshit response

thank you

[Guy Whitey Corngood]

140. Apparently you do. So next time put me on ignore or something.

It would help out the both of us.

[rman]

103. yet again, no facts to support the assertions

"eventually becomes, slowly happening"....

sure.

[jzodda]

135. the facts from human watch don't tell you anything

No tea leaves to read from that article at human rights watch at all right? Drink your cool aid sir, and enjoy

[killbotfactory]

175. It tells me they are concerned about political developments in Venezuela

Just as they are in EVERY COUNTRY ON EARTH.

[Solon]

145. Let's see here, how may journalists are in jail in Venezuela again?

Oh yeah, NONE, compared to China, whose number one in this by the way, with 32 in jail, Cuba at number 2 with 24 in jail, and the US at number 6 oddly enough, with 5 in jail, also, we are one of the few that didn't even bring charges against them.

http://www.cpj.org/attacks05/pages05/imprison_05.html

[PATRICK]

131. Scorched earth

Might it not be possible to weed out the pernicious foreign money backing of national media that influence the politics and security of the nation? The problem in LA and elsewhere is the buying up and directing of media chains against democracies and for corporate interests, even multi-nationals against particular governments. Not wanting to delve into that, the easy tools of law and regulation are very tempting, but in this case as in all others you must root up the law itself to easily control the evil. There is also legitimate dissent and though one might find this law discerns the difference between subversion and free speech it mainly is a wartime exception in time of apparent but quiet struggle.

In fighting your foe you become your foe and militarily weaker, a country grasps the easiest weapons to hand even when it hurts their own liberties. Not to recognize the cause of a protested action, even a human rights group fails to grasp the whole. it singles out Chavez instead of the outside influences. Other, real dictators with the full support of the US have done much worse with our blessing in the past.
The past is what formed the judgments of advocacy groups. In theses times are they to be so easily hoodwinked into condemning the protector of his nation(a joke for tinpot dictators of old but true in this case today) and not what lead him slowly to take these steps. So slowly it almost killed him and the democracy of his nation?

What they should have done was warn Chavez of falling into this trap and habit of power that by nature is an abuse, an easy way out, however necessary or timely it is deemed, no other means at his disposal. Trying to keep to the rules of a hypocritical world civilization under dire perils Human Rights does not seem equipped by imagination to recognize, co-opted as the notion of "free press" is, nations fighting to maintain their independence and the leaders they truly and fairly elect.

[Bacchus39]

144. so who supports this law??

anyone?? Chavezphiles?

[killbotfactory]

149. Do you support libel and slander laws?

Do you believe news agencies should knowingly be allowed to lie to their viewers?

[Bacchus39]

150. do you believe the president should be immune to criticism??

and that people should be subjected to incarceration for "insulting" or "disrespecting" El Comandante??

[Solon]

156. Let me ask you something....

First, do you know what the FCC does in the United States? It regulates PUBLIC airwaves, also, do you think it is legal in this country for us to talk about assassinating public figures, what about inciting riots, or yelling fire in a crowded theatre? None of those are legal HERE, but in Venezuela, that is but a matter of course for their private media, they have done everything from calling for Chavez assassination to telling the opposition to burn Caracas to the ground. Hell, considering what they DID do during the coup of 2002, all the private media should have been shut down and the owners and reporters thrown in jail. And yet, looking at the facts, that didn't happen, as of right now Venezuela has no reporters in jail on ANY charges. More than I can say for the United States.

http://www.cpj.org/attacks05/pages05/imprison_05.html

[killbotfactory]

157. That was the case before this law was passed

I do not support "disrespect" laws, but they were already on the books. This just extended them to most members of government. It also depends on how they legally define disrespect.

[Bacchus39]

158. he strengthened them as well.

making them more punitive. Costa Rica and Chile have just recently eliminated these antiquated laws yet Chavez saw it appropriate to strengthen them.

[killbotfactory]

161. They also haven't been subjected to a western/right-wing media

push to overthrow the government and liquidate the constitution. At least recently.

[Bacchus39]

162. no, Chavez wrote his own Constitution

and has been trying to change it by stacking the courts and opposing his own recall election that he put in the Constitution.

[killbotfactory]

164. He didn't write the constitution

A contitutional assembly created by popular referendum did. It allows for the removal of judges through a "judicial emergency comittee". Considering the rampant corruption that has been brewing long before Chavez got elected, it seems reasonable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Constitution_of_Venezuela#The_.22judicial_emergency_committee.22

[Bacchus39]

167. yeah, if they don't rule the "right" way

they are corrupt and are removed.

do you think the "insult"laws are reasonable too?

[killbotfactory]

176. Depends on what is considered an "insult"

Or in this case, offensive. No, I don't think they should be able to denigrate people in government they don't like with racial epithets, or slander the opposition as terrorists, over the public airwaves (which the private owned media over there has been doing for years) . I've been to message boards where there is no rules enforced (like, say, usenet or yahoo) and boards where they don't allow discussions to devolve into flamewars, and the latter are much more productive and informative, even though they limit someone's "freedom" to start and perpetuate flamewars. Applying such standards to the public airwaves doesn't seem that irrational to me.

[Bacchus39]

179. do they threaten flamers with prison time?

I posted the English text translation of the insult laws. judge for yourself.

[killbotfactory]

180. no, they flamers don't use public space to do so

message boards are private.

If a news correspondant started calling Condi Rice a "stupid uppity nigger" on public airwaves there would definately be harsh punishment. Would that be a grave from of government censorship?

[Solon]

165. OK, that's it, stop the lies right now...

You are either grossly ignorant about Venezuela or are purposely lying about it, either way, you have NO credibility to say two words about that country.

[Bacchus39]

168. more than you I believe

however, I do realize that I am in the minority as I do not worship El Comandante Chavez.

you won't find me defending "insult" laws anytime, anywhere.

[Solon]

169. OK, I'm going to assume you are lying on purpose...

its easier that way. Because otherwise you are dumber than a bag of rocks, and I don't accept that, considering you apparently know how to use a computer. OK, let's see if I can get this through your thick skull: The current constitution of Venezuela was debated upon by a committee that was elected by the people, and then was finalized by referendum after that. Chavez did NOT write one damn word in it, do you understand or do you want me to write it out in BIG letter next time.

[Bacchus39]

172. you can write as large as you like

it still doesn't change the fact that Chavez is adding MORE judges to the Supreme Court to ensure that his agenda is not impeded, that judges are being stripped of their independence when the president or legislature does not like the rulings they can be removed, that the insult laws were strengthened, and Chavez opposed the Constitutional recall election.

[Solon]

181. First, they can only be removed if a judicial oversight committee...

says they can be removed. Second, similar to our current problems with the Supreme court, they have an even worst problem, severe cronyism. Judges in Venezuela have thrown out cases of political violence, prosecutors(those that survived anyways) are having a hell of a time trying to charge the coup plotters for their crimes, etc. Hell, some on the Supreme Court of Venezuela actually supported the coup, and yet they are still on the court and not in jail, what does that tell you? On the recall, uh, did Gray Davis "support" his recall? Chavez didn't stop it, and it was fully legal and fair, even if the opposition broke Venezuela's own election laws in the process. Of course Chavez opposed it, he was the guy being recalled, remember, it would be politically stupid for him to support it. What is he supposed to say, "Go ahead guys, I deserve it"?

Never mind all that, to be honest, as I said before, I'm surprised at how BAD Chavez is at being a "dictator" myself. The TV stations that SUPPORTED his ouster are still going strong, not one journalist is in jail in that country for that crime. Same could be said for the protests against him, no "free speech zones" no police suppression that isn't opposition controlled, like Caracas' mayor. Not to mention that, just listening to what the media says in his country is actually LESS restrictive than what our media can say about our own government. Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it illegal in this country, First Amendment not withstanding, for our media to encourage us to assassinate our president? What about inciting violence and riots, are they allowed to do that? If not, then why the complaints, if you are going to complain about Venezuela as being a dictatorship, is France a dictatorship as well, they have MORE restrictive laws than Venezuela does, after all, yet Chavez is the Dictator, but Chirac is not? Why is that?

[High Plains]

188. What is the sound of one axe grinding?

I think I hear it.

[stepnw1f]

197. Spreading Lies

Ah yes.... DU is too quick for this shiiit.

[rman]

170. criticism is not the same as libel and slander

but i suspect you know that.

so why frame it as though those are the same?

[Solon]

171. Hell, the media there was characterizing Chavez as mentally insane...

even going far enough to actually have psycologist on air performing "Fristian" diagnosis of the guy by tape. I would label that slander myself.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

163. Boy, some people believe everything the MSM tell them

I suppose next they'll start threads about how Democrats want to ban Christmas.

[rman]

174. Exposing Human Rights Watch and their motives for spreading misinformation

Exposing Human Rights Watch and their motives for spreading misinformation
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=332009

[Fountain79]

204. So we only like human rights watch...

When they say something we agree with?

[blm]

177. Oh no....Chavez wants to best the United States' ranking of 44th in world

for freedom of press?

[Bacchus39]

182. at number 124, Venezuela has a long way to go

http://www.worldaudit.org/press.htm

[Bacchus39]

178. here is the insult law

read it and defend it if you so choose. P.S. as noted in the Human Rights Watch article, other countries have eliminated this law.

Article 148. Any person who offends, verbally or in writing or in any other fashion, the President of the Republic or the person serving in that capacity shall be punished with a prison term of between six and thirty months, if the offense was serious, and of half that duration, if it was slight.



The punishment shall be increased by one-third if the offense was made publicly.



If the offense was made against the President of either Chamber of the Legislature or the Chief Justice of the Supreme Court, the punishment shall be from four months to two years, if the offense was serious, and half that duration, if it was slight.



Article 149. When the actions described in the Article above are made against the Governor of one of the nation’s States, or against Cabinet Ministers, the General Secretary of the President’s Office, the Governor of the Federal District or Federal Territories, Supreme Court Justices, the Presidents of the State Legislatures, and Superior Judges, or against persons serving in those capacities, the punishment indicated in that Article shall be reduced to one-half; and, with respect to Presidents of Municipal Councils, Federal District Department Prefects, or District Civil Chiefs, it shall be reduced to one-third.



Article 150. Any person who publicly insults the Congress, the Chambers of the National Legislature, the Supreme Court of Justice, the Cabinet or Council of Ministers, any of the Legislatures or Legislative Assemblies of the nation’s states, or any of the Superior Courts, shall be punished by a prison term of between fifteen days and ten months.

http://www.cidh.org/countryrep/Venezuela2003eng/chapter6.htm#Desacato

[1932]

195. The legislature passed this law and the supreme court will review it

for constitutionality.

If it's unconstitutional, it will be overturned.

[Bacchus39]

200. I doubt it will be ruled unconstitutional

although it certainly should be.

[1932]

201. And your opinion is based on what?

Can you cite any example of the supreme court making outrageuse rulings in favor of Chavez?

I know you think they're packing the court with idealogues who ignore the law.

But do you have any evidence to support your opinon that the court is irresponsible and issues rulings that completely disregard logic and precendent?

[Bacchus39]

202. I don't have an opinion, just fact

that Supreme Court was increased by 12 members to 32!!! why is that?? case load?? I doubt it.

if you can step back and actually take an objective view on Sr. Chavez, I would gladly have a discussion.

[1932]

203. That's innuendo.

So what are you saying about the court? What has it done that you don't like?

The court desperately needed reform that would no longer anchor it to the past oligarchy. Expanding it and appointing people with a respect for the law and who don't serve the interests of the oligopoloy doesn't mean the court is not longer objective.

So, go ahead. Make an argument. Why do you think the court wouldn't strike down an unconstitutional law? Support your argument with evidence, and not with innuendo and opinion. Please just try it. Otherwise this is a waste of time.

[abex]

193. senor chavez comes highly recommended

he was popularly elected, and the bush administration tried to knock him out of power