Official Senate Committee Hearing - Electronic Surveillance - Thread 6

[Viva_La_Revolution]

Thread 1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333072#333197

Thread 2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333378

Thread 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333608

Thread 4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333872

Thread 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x334130

[in_cog_ni_to]

1. Oh PUKE! Sessions had to make a beeline to the camera.

:puke: The president hasn't broken any laws. OH MY G-D!!! They are SHAMELESS! The sister of someone killed in the Pentagon. PATHETIC PROPAGANDA!

[LSK]

8. why why why why why not go to the FISA court???

Why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why why?

[LiberalAndProud]

2. Debra Burlingame: catapult the propoganda

[LiberalAndProud]

6. we are at war. the enemy is here.

[zanne]

27. When did Congress declare war? nt

[Connie_Corleone]

3. Let the pimping of 9/11 victims begin...

Shame on the Republicans using 9/11 victims' families to justify illegal wiretapping!!

[BR_Parkway]

9. Everything changed 9/11 - we got us a dictator

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

11. I think the Dems have to bring in the Jersey Girls now. Fair and balanced

coverage by C-Span......

Recently from Kristen Breitweiser

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=104x5661200

Pass this one around. It's a brilliant column that asks all the right questions.



The King's Red Herring
by Kristen Breitweiser


Recently, President Bush has admitted to carrying out surveillance on U.S. citizens in the interest of national security. He unabashedly admits to doing it. He offers no apologies. With his bellicose swagger, he once again uses 9/11 as his justification for breaking our constitutional laws. The President's justification of 9/11 to carry out such surveillance begs a closer examination. President Bush should be stopped in his tracks with regard to his use of 9/11 scare tactics to circumvent constitutional laws that are meant to protect U.S. citizens. His justification for doing so -- the inability to conduct surveillance on the 9/11 hijackers -- is a red herring. History will bear out the truth -- our intelligence agencies held a treasure trove of intelligence on the 9/11 hijackers, intelligence that was gathered through their initially unencumbered surveillance. President Bush should busy himself by investigating why that information was then stymied and not capitalized upon to stop the 9/11 attacks.

MOUSSAOUI, FISA, and FBI SURVEILLANCE -- MISUNDERSTANDING #1:

When it comes to the FBI and Zaccarias Moussaoui, one must understand that the FBI met all evidentiary standards to both apply for and be granted a FISA warrant. The information the FBI had to support their FISA request was two files on Moussaoui that were given to the FBI by the French and British intelligence services. Inexplicably, FBI lawyers and supervisors at FBI HQ "misunderstood" the evidentiary standards needed to apply for and receive a FISA warrant, and they refused the FISA request from the FBI agents in Minneapolis. Thus, the Moussaoui search warrant paperwork was never submitted to the FISA court. One need only read Colleen Rowley's memorandum to confirm these facts.

Had FBI HQ not denied the FISA request, the FISA court would have issued the search warrant to search Moussaoui's belongings. Whether gaining access to Moussaoui's belongings would have stopped the 9/11 attacks remains unknown at this time. Hopefully, Moussaoui's upcoming penalty phase hearing will reveal more information as to what the FBI/CIA/DOD/NSA already knew about Moussaoui during the summer of 2001 and whether getting the FISA warrant to search Moussaoui belongings would have even made a difference.

None of the FBI lawyers and/or supervisors responsible for this glaring error and "misjudgment" has been held accountable.

more...

http://www.commondreams.org/views05/1220-22.htm

[KittyWampus]

14. this is the equivalent of Mrs. Alito running from the room crying.

GOP needs to drum up emotional sympathy for their otherwise lost cause.

[robbedvoter]

4. We're at war - the enemy is here - who's the tool?

[Viva_La_Revolution]

She had a brother die on 9/11. ya wanna adjust your comment?

very unbecoming.

[robbedvoter]

23. NO, I won't. She is a fearmonger. I live in NYC, lots of us lost people

and not want wars and atrocities in our name.

[Pirate Smile]

5. This has me in such a bad mood already today. Grrrrr.

:mad:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

7. Repugs are using a victim of 9/11

GOD this pisses me off!

Putting a family member of a victim up there to spout that they think it's ok...

I'm sorry, but are you a constitutional lawyer? I'm sorry for your loss, but it's clouding your judgement.

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Exactly. We have some expert witnesses coming up later though that

should punch some holes in the emotional rhetoric and bring logic back to the table.

[robbedvoter]

10. Very unfortunate program was brought up - not "congresscentric"

[robbedvoter]

13. Daschle, Bob Graham agreed to it - Sessions lying through his teeth

[LSK]

12. resuming session

[LSK]

18. investigate the whistleblowers

FUCK YOU

:grr:

[LSK]

24. COMPARING TO PLAME?!?!?! FUCK YOU ASSLEY!!!!!

[LiberalAndProud]

16. Sessions: "program within the law"

[LiberalAndProud]

20. Grassley: Leak of info to NYT

greatly concerned about this. leaks could jeopardize us. who leaked? Prosecution of leak?

[Arkansas Granny]

33. They are more interested in punishing those who told about the

program than they are in investigating illegal activities by Bush administration.

Defies all logic. Such asshats!

[dogday]

17. Why are they bringing up the family members of 9-11

Are they going to say go ahead Mr. President spy on us all you want?

[dogday]

19. Now they worry about Leaks

Where were you when Valerie Plame was outed?

[Sydnie]

21. How told about your illegal activities? Have they had their balls

wired yet? Grassley, I would love to hold the switch to your sack! :blush:

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. Grassley up talking about the "leaks" to the NYT on this issue.

:eyes: always attack the messenger.

[Nimrod2005]

25. This is SICK, SICK mother fuckers pimping 911 victims and

their families, invoking Osama's name repeatedly ---- NO shame at. I am telling you these bastards hate America, hate our values to the max!!!

[Nimrod2005]

36. Shut the hell up you bastard!!! Shut up, shut up you America Hater...

[Catchawave]

26. Oh, oh....go after the NYT "leak" now :(

[dogday]

28. PLame case was a two-bit nothing........

Stupid ASS

[gumby]

38. Couldn't believe my ears!

Plame is a two-bit nothing.

Grassley doesn't belong in Our government.

[ClayZ]

41. OMG... he said, Plame case a two bit nothing...

compared to the leak of this program!

[jojo54]

29. This is so lame....

SPIN, SPIN, SPIN.

[mod mom]

30. Grassley want investigation into who leaked to NYT. Upset more about

"two-bit nothing" Plame leak investigation gets more attention over who leaked to NYT on NSA surveillance

[Rose Siding]

35. Are we to think that qaeda had no idea phones could be tapped?

The ONLY people informed by the leak of this story are AMERICANS.

[Old Vet]

31. Grasso: Plame is a 2-bit nothing-

[mrcheerful]

42. Geeeeee grassy head would have wanted to prosucute the Water gat leakers

It sounds like. What a repig ideal.

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. This is BAFFLING to me. Don't the repukes care that their constituents

don't want to be spied on? WTF. I cannot believe they are DEFENDING this shit.

[dogday]

40. NO they don't and even some of the Dems don't

either... I quess they were spied on and certain things are known by the admin...

[in_cog_ni_to]

53. Yup. They were all tapped. The WH has garbage on them all. This is sick.

[Tinksrival]

34. FREAKY

C-span going out......absolute no confidence in our government! This is repub theater!

SICKENING

[LSK]

39. you mean the stream? TV didnt go out...

[LiberalAndProud]

37. Who's running against Grassley?

[CornField]

44. We don't know yet

He isn't up in 2006. We are, however, actively looking for someone with the name recognition to take him on.

[LiberalAndProud]

46. He'll be on my fite list in 2010.

[coffeenap]

59. Don't mean to be crass, but does Iowa have a prominent 9-11

survivor or spouse? Seems the platform to run on...

[LSK]

47. no election in 2006 according to the research forum

[democrank]

43. Stop all the bellyaching.

Why bother with laws? Let`s try out this new fascism.

[dogday]

50. Listening to these Republicans, it sound like we

already are in the throes of fascism... When Cheney said we were in the last throes. He meant the last throes of Democracy....

[jonas_stradlater]

45. I think Grassley is a two bit nuthin.

It's crazy and scary how fucked up his view on this is.

[immoderate]

62. He's ignoring the fact that Dems were prohibited from discussing...

their briefings with their colleagues. "Why didn't they bring it up?" Because it was illegal, stupid shit!

BTW, welcome to DU, Jonas!:hi:

--IMM

[robbedvoter]

73. Sessions lied that Bob Graham, Daschle agreed to this

I hope they come out and call his BS!

[in_cog_ni_to]

48. Grassley actually said the Senate has oversight? BULLSHIT!

They haven't held ONE oversight committee hearing that was legit. Fucking liar.:grr:

[liveoaktx]

97. Yeah, I was shouting at the screen when he said that. OVERSIGHT

when it comes to trying to trash the dems.

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

49. September 11th!!!!! September 11th!!!!! September 11th!!!!!

:puke:

[dogday]

54. I bet we will hear September 11 at least 150 times

today....

[Catchawave]

56. FISA takes too much time to protect Americans

[TexasLady]

51. Grassley..."here, let me hand you your answers Gonzo"

this is putrid.

[mrcheerful]

52. We haven't got time to wait before the next attack, excuse to lies

[kentuck]

55. Breaking the law is not the crime....leaking the crime is the crime...

Uh......OK?

[Sydnie]

61. RIGHT!

Roosevelt is a dead man. Move on! that was before the fisa law was passed ... MOVE the hell ON!

[LiberalAndProud]

57. Gonzo: requirements of FISA present challenges.

Grassley: Dem & Rep Presidents have done similar things. Amrka will see this in a diffrent lite

[Catchawave]

66. Pesky FISA doesn't protect Amerikka!!!!

[helderheid]

58. this makes my head hurt.

:banghead:

[Cassandra]

96. The room was literally spinning for me...

a few minutes ago. I need to calm down.

[giant_robot]

60. Gonzalez: Can't afford to wait days or weeks or months...

WTF? For FISA? A special court set up for exactly that purpose? A court that will accept requests for warrants retroactively for up to 72 hours? You lying bastard!

[helderheid]

64. holds NO water.

[TexasLady]

69. i sure hope one of the good guys mention it

I notice hes sure giving a lot more respect to the repukes than he did to Leahy.

[democrank]

70. Gonzales lies with a straight face, then

Republicans swear to it. Honestly, what the hell have we become?

[carolinalady]

63. This whole argument about past Presidents is false-law was

enacted that negates and I hope someone points that out.

[Cassandra]

65. Could the repukes hand Gonzoles his arguments...

any more obviously? Maybe they should get up from the panel and just take the witness chair.

[Avalux]

71. They probably rehearsed before the hearing.

In fact - I wouldn't expect anything else. Here are the questions, here's what you say.

[dogday]

67. Why don't they tell us exactly what plans have been

intercepted or stopped due to this illegal wire tapping. How many incidents have you stopped? How many arrested? Anything of any value or substance found out due to this illegal wire-tapping?

[BR_Parkway]

75. Because it's had terrible results according to the WPO story

this am:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/02/04/AR2006020401373.html
Surveillance Net Yields Few Suspects
NSA's Hunt for Terrorists Scrutinizes Thousands of Americans, but Most Are Later Cleared

Intelligence officers who eavesdropped on thousands of Americans in overseas calls under authority from President Bush have dismissed nearly all of them as potential suspects after hearing nothing pertinent to a terrorist threat, according to accounts from current and former government officials and private-sector sources with knowledge of the technologies in use.

Bush has recently described the warrantless operation as "terrorist surveillance" and summed it up by declaring that "if you're talking to a member of al Qaeda, we want to know why." But officials conversant with the program said a far more common question for eavesdroppers is whether, not why, a terrorist plotter is on either end of the call. The answer, they said, is usually no.

Fewer than 10 U.S. citizens or residents a year, according to an authoritative account, have aroused enough suspicion during warrantless eavesdropping to justify interception of their domestic calls, as well. That step still requires a warrant from a federal judge, for which the government must supply evidence of probable cause.

The Bush administration refuses to say -- in public or in closed session of Congress -- how many Americans in the past four years have had their conversations recorded or their e-mails read by intelligence analysts without court authority. Two knowledgeable sources placed that number in the thousands; one of them, more specific, said about 5,000.

[dogday]

88. If the program is not working then there is the answer

If it does not produce results and infringes upon our civil liberties, then it is a program for shit and needs to be discontinued.

[mrcheerful]

68. VE must defend da fatherland

[Surya Gayatri]

85. Oh, no, Biden the Motor-Mouth

is up. How will he try to make himself look good here? SG

[helderheid]

72. Seriously, why do Neo-Cons hate America? Why do they piss on our laws??

[Nimrod2005]

78. For personal gains, they are strong supporters of individualism, promote

power and wealth be held by individuals and not by governments or other form of authority or law.

[Cassandra]

107. They don't piss on all the laws...

just the ones that effect them.

[LSK]

74. Biden up

:popcorn:

[LSK]

80. how will we know when this war is over?

Answer: NEVER

[LiberalAndProud]

84. Biden: administration credibility questioned

How will we know when this war is over?

[dweller]

89. when will this war be over?

long sigh from gonzo...

dp

[LiberalAndProud]

98. that sigh was telling, indeed.

it spoke volumes

[Catchawave]

76. AG: I "think" the president has authority.....huh?

[Sydnie]

77. Biden up - should we get excited or take a nap? n/t

edit- wrong senator LOL

[robbedvoter]

82. Biden: "I don't hear anyone, my God, don't do that!"

[JudyM]

79. I just called Specter's office to bitch that he didn't put him under oath

Had to pay for the call, too, but it was worth it...I said not putting him under oath makes Specter look weak, since it only takes a few seconds to swear someone in, and why wouldn't he. She said that there are already penalties for lying to congress, to which I responded that swearing him in would make it more official for the public - to see that he is being held to that standard. Said that especially with all the integrity issues in Washington these days, it is unseemly to give the appearance that the A.G. is being treated generously. Repeated that a lot of people are watching and Specter is hurting his own appearance of integrity by not swearing him in. If swearing in isn't necessary, why would they EVER swear anyone in -- either do it or don't do it, but don't choose when you are and when you're not.

If anyone else wants to call, here's the number: 202-224-4254
PS they did not ask me if I was from Pennsylvania.

[chat_noir]

AP article on Yahoo

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060206/ap_on_go_co/eavesdropping_congress

[The Witch]

81. I'm back!!!!!!!!!

What did I miss? Top 3 moments/lines?

[stop the bleeding]

99. only our rights going down the drain n/t

[Connie_Corleone]

83. I hope Biden asks his questions and not bloviate the whole time.

[Catchawave]

91. He does like to hear himself speak ....LOL

[merbex]

86. Well glory be- a short brilliant question from Biden

Hell has frozen over

[sabra]

94. I know. Gonzo was taken back by the q

[wordpix]

110. what was the question? And answer?

[merbex]

111. "how will we know this war on terror is over?"

Gonzo sat there stumped for many many seconds

[robbedvoter]

87. When will the war be over? "Not today or tomorrow"

"When AQ is destroyed" hard question - irresponsible of me to answer ..."

[merbex]

93. That question stumped Gonzo

Cheers to Biden

[The Witch]

90. OMG Gonzales: "If you act to say we don't have authority"

UM... that's what the FISA act SAYS. We've already DONE that.

[Skidmore]

92. Let's hope Biden resists the urge to grandstand and asks

some real questions.

[liveoaktx]

105. Biden quite reserved today-Good!

[Sydnie]

95. Pass that law - stop it now - then go back to the drawing board

and write a new law, iron clad, to make it clear what he can and can not do!

[ShortnFiery]

102. Yes but ...

In between freaking us out with "terra threats" they continue to use the example of Bin Laden's on speed dial. This is absurd ... people are being ruled by FEAR. Shame on the Bush Administration.

[gkhouston]

104. NO. They've broken the 1978 law six ways from Sunday.

If Congress passes a new law now saying they can't do what they just did, it makes it look like the warrantless wiretapping was legal and the administration skates. They should nail the administration for breaking the existing law, IMO.

[dogday]

100. Ask why they are wire-tapping protestors?

and others?

[Sydnie]

101. No, we have said, if you know they are talking to them, then go

get them! Get the Al Q and their affiliates, but don't do it illegally!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

103. Thread 7 is up!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x334816

[merbex]

106. Okay ,Who are you and what have you done with the real Joe Biden

Short,pithy questions getting to the heart of the matter?

It looks like Biden but this guy is not acting like Biden

Thank God

[LSK]

LOL

[WinkyDink]

108. AG argues for Fascism.

"They appealed to nationalist sentiments and prejudices, exploited anti-Semitism, and portrayed themselves as champions of law, order, Christian morality, and the sanctity of private property."

"...military aggression so inherent in fascist philosophy...." " Peaceful, complacent nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, making struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of the fascist state. Imperialism is the logical outcome of this dogma."

"all forms of fascism have three common features: anticonservatism, a myth of ethnic or national renewal, and a conception of a nation in crisis."

"In general, fascists stand against all scientific, economic, religious, academic, cultural, and leisure activities that do not serve their vision of national political life."

And finally:

"A fascist movement almost always asserts that the nation faces a profound crisis....Fascists claim that the nation has entered a dangerous age of mediocrity, weakness, and decline. They are convinced that through their timely action they can save the nation from itself. Fascists may assert the need to take drastic action against a nation's "inner" enemies."

(Quotes from Encarta and infoplease.)

[dogday]

109. Everybody has to make excuses for Bushes policies.

All the staff and cabinet members who have been through hearing after hearing defending their stance on what Bush wants. They just need to call Bush and ask him directly.... The buck stops with him ...