Official Senate Committee Hearing - Electronic Surveillance - Thread 7

[Viva_La_Revolution]

Thread 1
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333072#333197

Thread 2
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333378

Thread 3
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333608

Thread 4
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x333872

Thread 5
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x334130

Thread 6
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x334437#334473

[Surya Gayatri]

1. Thanks for the 'hard work', Viva!

[Viva_La_Revolution]

5. :)

[LiberalAndProud]

2. Thank you, Viva.

[BlueEyedSon]

3. Is that Bush Smirk contagious to his underlings, OR WHAT?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

121. Maybe it is inherent in "human" (giving them the benefit of the doubt)

physiology that results in the smirking appearance when people lie.

Of course for all we know they may be human-animal hybrids!!

[The Witch]

4. Thank you from me too

:hi: Viva :hug:

[Viva_La_Revolution]

12. LOL!

I'm gonna run out of "spy theme" pics on the first day of hearings!

[Tinksrival]

41. They are all terrific!

Well worth a repeat! Thank you for a great job :)

[The Witch]

82. I vote for Pierce Brosnan

*drool....*

[Viva_La_Revolution]

108. Hubba hubba!

[displacedtexan]

6. For the 3rd time today, Alberto blames Bush.

The president is responsible for authorizing this program.

Hm.

[dogday]

18. Does that leave the door open to bring Bush to this hearing?

It is part of the record, can they bring Bush before them for questions....

[chat_noir]

21. Alberto blames Spyboy? hehehehe

[Sydnie]

26. but he is the highest lawyer in the land

He has to agree that he can do it or he wouldn't be doing it. Collusion - Gonzales, Miers and blivet**!

[gkhouston]

39. yes, he is the highest lawyer in the land

would Bush (a non-lawyer) claim he has the legal authority if Gonzales advised him otherwise? Does this not reek of "just following orders"?

[Sydnie]

79. It reeks of Gonzales and Meirs telling him "anything you want boss".

[OmmmSweetOmmm]

7. His eyes are shifty and blinking a whole bunch..........

[gkhouston]

43. he's trying to figure out which Senator

has his hand on the lever for the trapdoor. :evilgrin:

[debbierlus]

8. Hi everyone - seeking clairification

I am wondering -

Are there going to be any other witnesses?

What about a special counsel?

Who has testified thus far?

I am behind the times.

Any summary would be greatly appreciated.

[Sydnie]

15. Don't know about anyone else testifying today

No word on special counsel at all. Just Gonzales today I think.

[LiberalAndProud]

9. Gonz: double speak

Biden: You've acknowledged that you're not bound by FISA.
Gonz: There are minimization requirements consistent with FISA if FISA applied

which it doesn't

[Catchawave]

10. Biden: you have not shared info with Intel committee!!!!

[liveoaktx]

100. VIDEO - Biden's Round 1

Subdued and serious

[Straight Shooter]

119. Thank you.

visuals add so much

[merbex]

11. Okay ,Who are you and what have you done with the real Joe Biden

short and to the point questions?

He looks like Biden sounds like Biden but without the bloviating

New and improved Joe?

[Surya Gayatri]

19. LOL! I had exactly the same reaction! eom

[displacedtexan]

20. Looks like Biden is listening to bloggers.

I hope so, at least.

How many times can his aides read the words "Bloviatin' Biden" and not mention it to Joe?

[John Q. Citizen]

111. Good point! n/t

[WinkyDink]

13. AG argues for Fascism.

Definitions of Fascism:
"They appealed to nationalist sentiments and prejudices, exploited anti-Semitism, and portrayed themselves as champions of law, order, Christian morality, and the sanctity of private property."

"...military aggression so inherent in fascist philosophy...." " Peaceful, complacent nations are seen as doomed to fall before more dynamic ones, making struggle and aggressive militarism a leading characteristic of the fascist state. Imperialism is the logical outcome of this dogma."

"all forms of fascism have three common features: anticonservatism, a myth of ethnic or national renewal, and a conception of a nation in crisis."

"In general, fascists stand against all scientific, economic, religious, academic, cultural, and leisure activities that do not serve their vision of national political life."

And finally:

"A fascist movement almost always asserts that the nation faces a profound crisis....Fascists claim that the nation has entered a dangerous age of mediocrity, weakness, and decline. They are convinced that through their timely action they can save the nation from itself. Fascists may assert the need to take drastic action against a nation's "inner" enemies."

(Quotes from Encarta and infoplease.)

[Nimrod2005]

16. Nice post --- Yes he is.

[Tinksrival]

14. Why does Alberto

begin his sentances with......."the program I am discussing at this time" ????

Are there other programs? More than one? Is this how they are getting away with not discussing the scope of spying. Multiple programs?

[ClayZ]

Certainly insinuates there are OTHER programs.... eh

[Viva_La_Revolution]

24. makes you wonder, doesn't it?

I think a more accurate question would not be "if" but "how many"?
:scared:

[Sydnie]

76. I believe they have set a date as to when they want to say they

began THIS program, the TSP. What they call what they did before that date must have a different "operation" name now.

[stop the bleeding]

17. Biden to Gonzo - Can you assure us that you are competent - LOL n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

22. Does anyone know what happened when the FISA judges met with the AG

a while ago? It was a month or so ago. The remaining FISA judges were meeting with the AG to see what they had been doing. Have we ever heard what came of that meeting? Have any of the judges spoken out about it?

[LSK]

23. who can we put under oath and say no Americans have been spyed on

Unless they are a terror suspect.

[gkhouston]

56. and let's detemine whether

their definition of "terror suspect" is a reasonable one.

[LiberalAndProud]

25. Biden: wants assurance

Can you assure us u are confident that no 1 is being evesdropped on in the US except suspected terrorist.

Gonz: can't give absolute assurance
safeguards in place
procedures being followed.

[jojo54]

27. Go get 'em Biden!!!

Shake that finger. I loved the look in his eyes!

[in_cog_ni_to]

28. *sigh* Kyl up...

:puke:

[chelsea0011]

37. "a little humility is necessary before we accuse the President of a crime"

ROTFLMAO

[helderheid]

29. WOW! Bruce Fine!

[merbex]

30. Biden just blew me away

Who says people can't change bad habits?

No bloviating today by Joe

There is hope for all if Biden can change this nasty habit he usually has

[giant_robot]

31. I wish they were as determined to get al al Qaeda

at Tora Bora, or before going to war with a country that had nothing to do with al Qaeda.

[dogday]

32. I like the words Accuse The President Of A Crime

has a nice ring...

[Straight Shooter]

114. It would be even better to insert the word "bogus" before "president." n/t

[helderheid]

33. OK, this is the man that defined ass hat.

[LiberalAndProud]

34. JON KYL: humility called for by members of committee.

huh?

[mrcheerful]

42. Kiss King Georgies but and let him do as he wills

[qanda]

35. Kyl saying that Leahy was wrong for saying this is illegal

Said he was calling the President a criminal.

[seabeyond]

53. yup,.... so n/t

[gkhouston]

67. Yes, and...?

The law was broken. The President authorized the activity that violated that statute. Are we supposed to pretend that didn't happen because the President said it was okay? Sorry, not feeling intimidated today. The law is the law, no matter who breaks it.

[Pryderi]

36. CONGRESS SHOULD BE HUMBLE????

[LiberalAndProud]

I was hoping he'd call for humility by members of the Exec Branch.

Prez could use a good dose of humility.

[Sydnie]

50. I got the impression that he meant we ALL should be humble

Don't say the President committed crimes, unless he is a democratic president, then we will talk about it and bloviate about it every chance we get!

[Nimrod2005]

38. Born to lie!!! These GOP people, masters of all lies!!! n/t

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

40. Senator Kennedy's approach was brilliant: Can the evidence

obtained be relied on not to be invalidated?

Kyl wants more humility, let it begin with him! He is such a jerk. Then he proceeds to tell his story and advise everyone in the world how they should conduct themselves.

:puke:

Specter is the only Repuke who asked good questions.

[ShortnFiery]

47. Kyl is anecdotal ... monkeys are flying out of his butt!

[BlueEyedSon]

49. 70% of the Republican party should be prosecuted under RICO

They are a gang of criminals.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

63. Yes they are. Either by actively committing the crimes, or by

knowingly allowing them to occur without speaking up. Or in most cases swearing that everything they do is illegal.

[cali]

74. I thought Kennedy did a lousy job

and before anyone jumps on me- I'm a big fan of the Senator's. He speechified. We need precise and probing questions. Leahy did it, Biden did it. We need a prosecutorial approach.

[WinkyDink]

91. He was too clever by half. Or hahf. Heh.

Tried to get people to go, "Hmmmmm" about potential cases' either being started or getting thrown out based on illegally-obtained "evidence". But Gonzo could just smirk and think, "Don't you see who's on the SCOTUS, fool?!"

Also, his mild-mannered, sneak-up-on-ya-for-a Gotcha! style didn't work; just another snoozer.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

92. I get what you mean, but I think Kennedy found a very relevant angle

that everyone ought to be concerned about.

IOW, cases may later be tossed out because the authorization is later found to be illegal, or NSA operatives may be acting illegally under the program.

That ought to be pretty easy for everyone to agree is a major potential flaw.

I think coming at it from every angle provides the best Congressional over sight.

[dogday]

44. Jumping to conclusions

when you spy on Americans, without a warrant, you are breaking the law asswipe...

[dogday]

FISA has not been effective, FISA is not broke

Out of 5,000 warrants asked for only 3 were turned down. They don't use FISA because they don't have any evidence for what they are doing... FISA is a pain in their asses...

[BlueEyedSon]

68. I thought it was 19,000 & 4.... same idea, though.

[gkhouston]

73. actually, I heard the numbers were

5 turned down out of 16,000 this morning on NPR.

[Pryderi]

45. Kyl's going to make me puke`

[helderheid]

46. you are either WITH the constitution or AGAINST it.

[BlueEyedSon]

55. But it is OPINION what the document says, and whether you are in

violation of it.

Needless to say, the MAJORITY opinion wins.

[WinkyDink]

48. Source of the smirk:

Alito.

[debbierlus]

51. Pleased with Biden - wonders never cease!

He was right on-

We need a official Intelligence committee hearing with people sworn in....

Pointed to Gonzalez's not being able to GURANTEE that only suspected terrorists on foreign soil are being subjected to the program.

I am SICKENED by the Republicans. CRIMINALS, in the FIRST degree.

[seabeyond]

61. biden has been right on a lot, we just dismiss it as soon

as the warmth fades and start in on the old tired line

just as all these dems are getting raves today, tomorrow we will forget and call them spineless do nothings.


:shrug:

go figure

[laylah]

52. What the H*LL

is WRONG with these people? Kyle from AZ stating something along the lines of people jumping to conclusions before the "Program" was explained!:argh:

Jenn

[feelthebreeze]

54. Let's sum up our talking points again in the echo chamber.

[LiberalAndProud]

57. Gonzo: repeats - do not amend FISA. FISA is reasonable.

[LSK]

60. then why not use it?????????????????

[BlueEyedSon]

62. If they are not bound by any laws, who gives a sh*t what the law says?

No revisions necessary!

[democrank]

65. Right.

FISA so "reasonable" the Bushies had to run around it.

[Pryderi]

58. "We'll follow FISA, except when we want to violate the 4th amendment.

[Chalco]

59. I want Gonzales injected with truth serum and hooked up to

a lie detector.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

77. Send him to Gitmo and give him his own treatment. n/t

[Sydnie]

64. Hey Kyl, we appreciate that it is a very ILLEGAL program! n/t

[displacedtexan]

66. It's a simple question. Won't anyone ask it?

Why was FISA necessary?

[BlueEyedSon]

69. wow, great nix pix

[displacedtexan]

80. It's chilling, isn't it?

Google Nixon + image.

[dweller]

89. is that the Zapruder film?

the one that was eventually 'lost' ?

dp

[in_cog_ni_to]

78. I know the repukes don't want an answer to that question. How about a Dem?

PLEASE!!!! ask THE question!

[in_cog_ni_to]

70. I wonder when the repukes decided they would support the spying on U.S.

citizens? How do we stop this shit? How do we control an out-of-control government and their cohorts in OUR Congress?

[democrank]

71. This is such utter BS!

The only thing missing is Tweety with one of his "Bush is noble" comments.

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

72. Kyl: We need this to detect future attacks. But why bother

cause if you send reports to * he won't look at them or act on them anyhow?

PDB Aug 6 2001

Kyl is so self-important. Guess it figures, as people often see faults in others that they themselves have but are unaware of.

[chelsea0011]

75. "After Action Report" Kyl is nuts

[LiberalAndProud]

81. Gonz: I was not present at all briefings of members of Congress.

[dogday]

85. I am sure you were not

and made sure you could not repeat those particular conversations before a hearing, no freaking way...

[tgnyc]

83. Kyl actually undercut the administration: he asked if warrantless spying

of two al Qaeda within the US is included here, and Gonzo said no, we'd have to look into whether that's legal.

Which undercuts the whole "if al Qaeda calls, we want to know what they're saying" line of defense.

[democrank]

84. I feel safer knowing

they`re spying on Quakers and grandmothers with No War posters.

[LiberalAndProud]

86. Herb Kohl (D) Wisconsin: Why not follow the law?

[berner59]

95. "We believe we were following the law"....

that's nice...but how about you were wrong???

[LiberalAndProud]

87. Gonz: we are acting in manner consistent with FISA

[displacedtexan]

96. Consistent doesn't mean "bypassing." eom

[democrank]

88. I`m waiting for Feingold.

He`ll slice `em and dice `em.

[in_cog_ni_to]

93. I hope so. He needs to be sliced and diced.

:grr:

[helderheid]

90. Gonz: twitch, flip, screeeech!

[LiberalAndProud]

94. Gonz: of course there was debate

complicated foreign intelligence act
authorization to use military force
of course there was a debate

[Epiphany4z]

98. They don't want to amend fisa

because they want NO oversight ever.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

97. Thread 8 is up!

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x335132

[chelsea0011]

99. So what can happen here? Dems obviously think the Pres. broke

the law and Repukes run things. What can be done here. Can charges be filed?

[LSK]

103. win in 06

Its SOOOOO important!

[LiberalAndProud]

101. FISA works well in peacetime.

Kyl: Can assure that authority will not be abused by this or any other prez?
Gonz: Authority to protect country under constitution. Many aspects of FISA make sense to me. they work well in peacetime.

Wasn't FISA enacted in time of (undeclared) war?

[gumby]

102. Gonzales: Congress can make their stupid little laws, but

Deal Leader won't follow them.

[TexasLady]

104. were happy to listen to your ideas? per gonzo

who the hell does he think he is!????

reminds me of what elders in church would tell husbands to say t0 their wives....ill listen but im the final authority....condescending prick!!

[TexasLady]

110. cool the first protester is removed!!

[Pryderi]

105. Didn't Congress turn down Bush's request for wiretaps ?

[DemonGoddess]

106. The constitution has set limits

on Presidential powers. But, he tries oh so hard to qualify it by saying basically that CONGRESS has no authority to use those limits. URRRGGHH

[in_cog_ni_to]

107. *AHEM* ask WHY they were spying on QUAKERS and anti-war protestors!

Why won't any Dem ask that question??? Leahy mentioned them in his speech, but why no DIRECT QUESTION? I'm so sick of this crap.

[helderheid]

109. I'm waiting for that too!

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

112. Anyone catch what the protester said? n/t

[in_cog_ni_to]

118. No. He was too far away. Something about "spying on Americans" that's all

I caught.

[TexasLady]

113. somebodty called gonzo a fascist i think

lol

[annabanana]

115. ENFORCE THE LAW.. ARREST BUSH

t-shirt just shown... guy still there?

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

117. He was promptly escorted out. n/t

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

120. Yea, I thought Gonzo said he wasn't a pacifist, but I'm sure it musta

been "fascist."

Who could argue with that from an admin with such a great record of truthtelling?

:sarcasm:

[in_cog_ni_to]

116. Question. Why aren't ALL Senators PISSED AS HELL about this

WH telling them they do not have to follow the laws Congress makes? In essence, that makes the Congress USELESS. Why do they want to be useless? Why aren't they setting them straight on who makes laws and who doesn't? WHY aren't they defending the Constitution? They really are fascist rat bastards, aren't they? :scared:

[LibDemAlways]

122. My thoughts exactly. Why was the citizen

who called Gitmo Gonzo a facist the only one in that room who was noticably pissed? What is it going to take to light a fire under the Dems?

[PATRICK]

123. Because they'd be amazed how you are shocked

Besides Selection 2000 for the Dems, the entire Congress, including GOP bootlickers, has sat back while Bush made hundreds of gratuitous signing statements that virtually slapped them in the face each time with "l'etat, c'est moi". It's such old habit for them I suppose they have to get quite worked up to even appear shocked, or colorful enough to appear "concerned". In that there is no difference of party among the whole lot. The faucet has been dripping for years and they should all of a sudden get alarmed they need to fix it?

As a party each one gives the impression of unfitness to field a government of representation or responsibility. Wind up toys could just as well do the function but then the administration would have to do all the nitty detail work and laziness and focus on "other things" is their lasting hallmark. If the Congress were to credibly demand accountability the administration would collapse within the week.

The "idea" of proposing a law to limit the fox raiding the henhouse without permission is so funny it hurts. A lot.

[pinto]

124. Thread 8 is here:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=335132&mesg_id=335132