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Once and for all---lying before Congress without oath is serious.

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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:23 PM
Original message
Once and for all---lying before Congress without oath is serious.
I know you're all fuming Gonzalez wasn't sworn. So was I. But if he lied and it can be shown with a preponderance of the evidence that he did, he has a problem.

It's called False Statements Act . Does not require being under oath. It does not require that it be proved there was intent to deceive or even a show of conscious avoidance. This statue is used far more for prosecution than perjury.

It is very broad in its authority and carries a severe penalty. So anyone who thinks Gonzalez does not have jeopardy because he was not under oath, this is the statute.


TITLE 18 SECTION 1001

(a) Except as otherwise provided in this section, whoever, in any
matter within the jurisdiction of the executive, legislative, or
judicial branch of the Government of the United States, knowingly
and willfully -
(1) falsifies, conceals, or covers up by any trick, scheme, or
device a material fact;
(2) makes any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent
statement or representation;
or
(3) makes or uses any false writing or document knowing the
same to contain any materially false, fictitious, or fraudulent
statement or entry;
shall be fined under this title or imprisoned not more than 5
years, or both.

(b) Subsection (a) does not apply to a party to a judicial
proceeding, or that party's counsel, for statements,
representations, writings or documents submitted by such party or
counsel to a judge or magistrate in that proceeding.
(c) With respect to any matter within the jurisdiction of the
legislative branch, subsection (a) shall apply only to -
(1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a
matter related to the procurement of property or services,
personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a
document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to
the Congress or any office or officer within the legislative
branch; or
(2) any investigation or review, conducted pursuant to the
authority of any committee, subcommittee, commission or office of
the Congress, consistent with applicable rules of the House or
Senate.


http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/ts_search.pl?title=18&sec=1001


The unfortunate thing so far is that he has not been trapped in a blatant and proveable lie. He played ring around the rosie with the "inherent authority" and the IWR. It's going to take other witnesses to impeach his bullshit today. Then we can checkmate him into a corner. Specter put Gonzalez right in our crosshairs. Plain and simple, we did not deliver the knockout punch.

Had he been under oath today, you have to face the fact there was nothing (at least that I heard) that was that "I gotcha" moment. The questions he wouldn't answer, he wouldn't have answered if he was sworn either. Nothing could have compelled him to at this stage because he would have claimed it was "operational" and he couldn't disclose it.

So take what consolation you can. This was a start.... It's not over.
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annabanana Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:25 PM
Response to Original message
1. Thanks for the info...
I had no idea there was such a thing. (Not that I expect him to get called on anything soon.)
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mikelgb Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:26 PM
Response to Original message
2. then why aren't the oil execs being tried for perjury?
:shrug:
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:33 PM
Response to Reply #2
4. To be prosecuted for perjury
you DO have to be under oath. This is a different statute discriminate to Congress. A relatively low standard of proof.

The oil company execs are not off the hook either. There's just too much going on and they haven't been brought back to answer for their lies.

But this committee is headed by that asshole Stevens. He is a total Bush operative.
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The Witch Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 12:02 PM
Response to Reply #4
36. And that's why Gonzales should have been sworn.
Because there is a different standard.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:32 PM
Response to Original message
3. Not to mention that if he is found to have lied ...
... there's your basic PR Nightmare for this Administration. What would they say?

"Mr. Gonzales did not feel he had to tell the truth to Congress and the American people, because he was NOT under oath at the time."

And then there'd be the problem, if he is found to have lied, with the fact that he did not take the oath; in other words, he KNEW he was going to lie, and therefore attempted to avoid a perjury charge by not taking the oath -- which would only go to prove malicious intent BEFORE his testimony had even begun.


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Sadie5 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:35 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. He often never answered the question put to him
just blabbed about something else. Clinton was mentioned a few times too.
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NanceGreggs Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:44 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. Don't they ALWAYS have to mention Clinton?
Maybe THAT should be our mantra: "After Clinton took out his penis, EVERYTHING changed!"

OR:

"The problem with Republicans is that they live in a pre-Clenis world, instead of a post-Clenis world."

God, these people are IDIOTS!
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GreenPartyVoter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:33 PM
Response to Original message
5. Hmmm.. Wish there _had_ been a gotcha, though. :^(
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Everyone please remember he said they were not spying
on political opponents. That little gratuity will come back to haunt him.

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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:36 PM
Response to Reply #6
9. That's a different "program."
:)
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:45 PM
Response to Reply #9
15. You bet.
:)
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gordianot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:41 PM
Response to Reply #6
11. I love it.. One ghost who will get him has a name, "Jimmy Carter".
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LuCifer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:36 PM
Response to Original message
8. Why do you hate America?
9/11 am be changed everything. Don't aid the terra-ists! :sarcasm:
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catmandu57 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:40 PM
Response to Original message
10. Who's going to enforce this
Today specter demonstrated classic schoolyard bullying, I don't know how we can force this unless and until we wrest control from these liars.
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BuyingThyme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 10:15 PM
Response to Reply #10
18. Either we get the White House or some kind of special counsel.
If we can come up with evidence which shows the "program" was used to intercept Wilson (et al) calls, Fitz can grab it.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:44 PM
Response to Original message
12. Wow. Thanks for the great info...
Peace.
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fooj Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:45 PM
Response to Original message
14. Are they going to call Comey to testify?
I certainly hope so.

Peace.
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Justice Is Comin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 12:47 PM
Response to Reply #14
37. Well I'm almost certain
Ashcroft will be next. Depending on what he says, Comey would be the next logical witness. They also need to get that General in charge of the NSA up there. He wouldn't have a very good day.

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Coastie for Truth Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:49 PM
Response to Original message
16. That's what Martha Stewart was nailed under.
Also, DOJ throws it into every tax fraud, stock fraud, patent fraud case. (Even a misleading statement on your Private Pilot License application or Ham Radio License application).
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hootinholler Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 09:56 PM
Response to Original message
17. We can add this to the Articles of Impeachment.
Relevant passage:
subsection (a) shall apply only to -
(1) administrative matters, including a claim for payment, a
matter related to the procurement of property or services,
personnel or employment practices, or support services, or a
document required by law, rule, or regulation to be submitted to
the Congress
or any office or officer within the legislative
branch;


This would include SOTU speeches. The Constitution requires a report, delivering it as a speech is a latter day flourish.

-Hoot
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RazzleDazzle Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 10:43 PM
Response to Original message
19. So why do they bother to swear anyone in, ever?
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:03 PM
Response to Original message
20. I think there is a big difference.
In a typical oath, the testifyer is swearing to "tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth." It is that 'whole truth' and 'nothing but the truth' part that can clobber you under oath, while a false statement has to be provably false. In other words while not under oath BEING EVASIVE is not a crime. Evasive sworn testimony to a congressional hearing could result in a contempt of congress citation.

I could be wrong though, I'm certainly no lawyer. I can't think of one good reason why Specter would have pulled that stunt this morning, IF THERE WERE NO DIFFERENCE.


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JudyM Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #20
27. That's what I was thinking. He's stonewalling to the max and he shouldn't
be able to do that so freely.
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napi21 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:10 PM
Response to Original message
21. Thank you!!! Finally a confirmation on this!
I've asked this question 4 or 5 times, and never got a response. I'm not an attorney, but I was pretty sure I heard somewhere that it's a criminal offense to LIE to Congress, wether or not you are under oath! Gonzo knows that too! Let's see what the other witensses have to say that will bury him.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:12 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Gnozles was very careful to not tell an actual lie. nt.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:15 PM
Response to Reply #22
23. He said they were not spying on political opponents.
Do you trust him on that one? I think that was his big booboo today.
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Warren Stupidity Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:19 PM
Response to Reply #23
24. What were his exact words?
I'll bet a dollar he didn't say "we are not spying on political opponents".


Remember, as he is not under oath, he actually has to lie to suffer any legal consequences. Half truths, evasions, and clever sophistry are not lies.
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:23 PM
Response to Reply #24
25. He was asked pointblank, "Are you spying on political opponents?"
I think, by Schumer. And he answered too quickly, "No, we're not doing that."



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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
26. "under this program" you have to add that thought to every
question and every answer. That qualifier is not optional when discussing any of today's festivities. He said "they didn't do that" "under this program". Make sense?
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:34 PM
Response to Reply #26
28. Sure. And Warren is right. But / and, the mofo did blow it
and he asserted they were not spying on political opponents.

Given Rove's tastes, that's silly on its face. :)
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Sydnie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:42 PM
Response to Reply #28
29. Oh, I firmly believe that spied on EVERYONE that challenged them
but "not in this program". They just called it something different.
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Pachamama Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 04:37 AM
Response to Reply #25
32. Actually, I think the exact words were "Political Enemies"....
...which, since the words and symantecs do matter, "enemies" could be interpreted as very different (in Bush Speak) than as opponents...

Just saying....I don't trust these people at all, and I can see later on this coming back as an issue and them saying "but we said enemies"....we haven't spied on "enemies", just "opponents".... :eyes:
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EFerrari Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 11:13 AM
Response to Reply #32
35. I think you are right, he said "enemies". n/t
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Toucano Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Feb-06-06 11:46 PM
Response to Original message
30. That's wonderful, but you know - it isn't the whole point.
Not swearing in Gonzales conveys a message that he and the administration he represents are exempt from the rules that regularly apply to everyone else.

Isn't that why were all there in the first place? The oath is symbolic of the way Republicans are running EVERY facet of government.
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Maraya1969 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 01:05 AM
Response to Original message
31. WHO IS GOING TO CHARGE HIM? WHO IS GOING TO CHARGE BUSH
AND THE REST? I CAN'T STAND IT ANYMORE!
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Skidmore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #31
34. Thank you!!
I don't care how many laws they break, if no one will hold them accountable, then we can scream till we are blue in the face and it will mean nothing.
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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 10:41 AM
Original message
ACLU ad


The ACLU ran the following advertisement in the
February 6, 2006, edition of USAToday


http://www.aclu.org/safefree/spying/24060res20060206.html

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chat_noir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Feb-07-06 10:41 AM
Response to Original message
33. ACLU ad


The ACLU ran the following advertisement in the
February 6, 2006, edition of USAToday


http://www.aclu.org/safefree/spying/24060res20060206.html

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