Reality check

[MissWaverly]

Tell me what you think, I just had a argument with my sister who is a middle of the road
democrat. She thinks total solution is to vote George out of office, impeachment would be too divisive. I said this is not business as usual. If George Bush lied us into war
with Iraq; he must be held accountable. We have to show the world that this is not okay
with us, Iraq is in ruins, there are thousands dead; we are not talking about a break in
at the Watergate.

[thinkingwoman]

1. tell your sister...

that George isn't up for reelection, first of all.

Secondly, lawbreakers must be punished. It's the American way. :evilgrin:

[MissWaverly]

5. thanks for the help

It always helps to get a second opinion.

[Virginian]

41. Just be careful what you ask for.

How does President Dick Cheney sound?

I think we should be talking about impeaching Cheney. Maybe Fitz will come up with something on him soon. If we can get rid of the puppet master, and Rove, then the rest will be easier.

Junior isn't completely hapless, he has a fair amount of evil in him. Just look who his parents are. He comes by it naturally.

This whole BFEE mess goes beyond Reagan, it goes back to Ford. Until recently I thought of him benignly, but then I realized that the hard core chicken hawks of this administration were also members of the Ford administration. They just rotate jobs when there is a new Republican President. I guess the Neo-cons were anxious to get Nixon out of office, too. The enemy of your enemy is not necessarily your friend.

IIRC The Republicans were the reason Nixon left office. So it was a power grab. The Neo-cons against the traditional conservatives like Buchanan. It was invisible to the Dems, but there was an internal struggle. I had never thought about it that way before. The Dems were vilified to the republican voter, so they could hate the Dems and not notice that their party had been possessed by the devil. BFEE was at work behind the scenes, plotting, planning. The game plan was in motion, not just for the next election, but for the next 5 elections. The neo-cons already have their candidate selected for the 2008 election and probably for the 2012 and 2016 and maybe even for the 2020 elections.

One thing that they do have right now, is the line of succession. We MUST take back the House and Senate in the next election so that we have a Democrat to ascend to the office of POTUS. Then we impeach both Cheney and Bush. ... And convict Rove once he is indicted. Their kind of evil has plagued our nation too long. If take out Cheney and allow a republican to be appointed VP, he will be their incumbent candidate in the next election. It didn't work too well for Ford, but they will make sure it works this time to keep their foot in the door.

[thinkingwoman]

42. any impeachment of Bushco

would include Cheney.

Hastert is next in line, which is bad enough as it is.

But impeachment should never be delayed or discarded because we don't like who is next in line.

[MissWaverly]

53. I understand what you are saying

But where is there accountablity for the Iraq War and Katrina and warrantless wiretapping, etc. OR do you think that the dems feel that if we go through the pain of impeachment
again, then whatever Bushbot is in control by then will just pardon these individuals
and we would have Iraq Contra Pardon Sweep under the Rug/Neocons get out of jail free revisited all over again.

[vicman]

2. It's too late

for her solution. So she's already given up.

[MissWaverly]

32. she is good friends with a Republican

When he started bragging about the Republican party at Christmas, I said that I don't believe you. Any card carrying member of the Republican Party should be going around
with a paper bag on his head like the anonymous comic. How can you possibly be proud of this administration, which you elected twice. A ballooning deficit, an unprovoked war
in Iraq which has destabilized the Middle East, the loss of a major US city. What
is there to brag about?

[fooj]

3. Ask your sister this...

What makes her so certain that Little Lord Pissypants will leave?

Peace.

[MissWaverly]

8. If not him, maybe his brother, or a Bushbot

we may never be done with them, maybe this is how the papal line started.
Now we have Bush II, etc., etc.

[fooj]

39. OMG! Don't even THINK that, MissWaverly!

Yikes! :hide:

Peace

[MissWaverly]

51. Can't help it, these are strange days

But I hope this will not happen.

:-)

[Mike Nelson]

4. what they said AND...

voting him out of office has failed to remove him... twice!

[MissWaverly]

15. yes and there should be accountability for that

the theft of 2000 and 2004.

[Catch22Dem]

6. I believe in crime and punishment

Bush has committed crimes against this nation as well as others, and should be punished accordingly. Does this person really think we could actually become MORE divided? The repukes risked division over a blow job when the president had 70%+ approval and only something like 30% supporting impeachment. We're talking about the lives of 2200 American military men and women and who KNOWS how many civilians and the complete destabilization of an entire region. I say bury the bastard up to his neck in Lafayette Park and let us all take a dump on his head. Nope, your sister is WRONG WRONG WRONG.

[MissWaverly]

14. thanks, and I believe that we should make it clear this is wrong

With Nixon, the toadies said that we could have gotten away with it, if we had been tougher
with the media, disciplined our staff, etc. So now we have Watergate, II. Well, it's
not the gamemanship but that these actions violate basic precepts of American law and
international law. I don't think that we can just call it a day when Bush leaves office.
We are establishing a precedent either we have a country based on laws or we have a junkyard
dictatorship where might makes right.

[Catch22Dem]

16. They learned A LOT from Watergate

After the Woodward & Bernstein outing of their crimes, they spent the next 30 years working to completely own and control the media while at the same time pushing the "liberal media" meme. Fucking brilliant if you ask me.

[MissWaverly]

21. but the fundamental thing was they never accepted blame

Nixon and his staff were responsible for offenses against the American people, the solution
was not to perform 1000 illegal things instead of 200. America has to be based on laws not
criminal behavior.

[Catch22Dem]

27. Oh I absolutely agree with you

I just liked your Watergate reference and thought I'd just throw out that little opinion of mine about how they spend the time since, building their media empire to help cover their future crimes.

[MissWaverly]

29. It is so frustrating

and I now have heard that one of the former White House plumbers was involved with
Jeffrey Dean, the geek that was a convicted felon who was hired to write software
for electronic voting.

[SPKrazy]

7. Impeachment is the only remedy

other than that, he finishes his 2nd term, and God help us all if we are dragged into further acts of war or we are attacked by "terrorists" again, then we will have martial law, and the constitution will be suspended, as will habeas corpus.

So there won't be any elections, all enemies of the pResident will be detained, and our great nation will be done.

Meanwhile, the wealthy with their private security firms will be protected in the event of a revolution of the people.

Vote him out?

Too little

Too late

Impeachment is the only way

[MissWaverly]

19. Even if every Repug is gone in 2008

Where is Rove going to be and Newt, and Tom DeLay (probably wearing a ankle bracelet) and
Ken Blackwell and Katherine Harris and all the others who helped in the 2000 and 2004 elections who will just be regrouping for another go. If we don't have accountability;
this thuggery will never end.

[SPKrazy]

28. Indeed Ms. Waverly, Indeed n/t

[MissWaverly]

30. as they say in Cool Hand Luke, what we have is a failure

to communicate, the very thing that we cherish is accountability, the idea that there is
justice for great and small, that wrongs will be redressed. That is what they hate,
they want a total blank check to do what they want.

[SPKrazy]

33. Seems like they believe they got one

and no one seems to be able to do a damned thing about it!

[MissWaverly]

35. I do think the last 2 years have been a big surprise

the rise of XM, Sirius, Jon Stewart, the internet, the decline of television, all these
things were variables they didn't count on, which have thrown a monkeywrench into
their spin machine.

[MissWaverly]

37. Good night and Thanks from Baltimore

You have been a big help, I must admit I was still angry when I sat down here.

thanks everybody!


:-)

[MissWaverly]

48. No, I think their idea of communication

is to just catapult the propaganda, which resolves nothing UNLESS they are considering
HOT AIR as a new energy source.

[Raster]

9. I think your sister needs to jettison her Pollyanna view of reality...

1) bushco* lied us into a devastating war with PROFOUND ramifications for political and monetary gain;

2) bushco* is ILLEGALLY spying on United States citizens, bypassing all checks and balances put in place.

3) bushco* has thrown aside the rule of international law and thumbed it's nose at long-standing alliances;

This isn't a blowjob we're talking about. This is the Republic teetering on the precipice. I'm sure your sister, like many Americans, would everything to be nice and neat so they can move on with their little wal-mart lives. BULLETIN: We are in serious trouble in this country. Now is the time to mitigate the damage these treasonous bastards have done. Too divisive? Get a fucking clue.

[MissWaverly]

20. somehow she thinks the impeachment for Clinton was fair

I still don't understand that - he lied under oath; but surely you MUST see that this
is much worse that what Clinton did. There are thousands dead due to the Iraq War.

[NanceGreggs]

10. Should the masterminds behind the Holocaust ...

... have been brought to justice, even if years after-the-fact?

Or should they simply have been 'voted out of office'?

Just wonderin' ...

[MissWaverly]

22. that's where the argument went downhill

I brought up Nuremberg, and she said you can't compare Bush to Hitler. Nuremberg said that
Germany's pre-emptive strikes on innocent countries were war crimes. Iraq did not attack
us, we commited a pre-emptive strike against them. Their country now lies in ruins and
there are now thousands of Iraqis and American soldiers dead and wounded. I said that
if Iraq was based on lies then top officials in our government should be held accountable.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

11. Law Trumps Politics.

[FloridaPat]

12. Most of these lawbreakers were lawbreakers during Reagan.

They were let off the hook. If there is no punishment for committing the crime, these creeps will never stop. They should be in jail for life. They should have their federal pensions canceled. They should have all their assets taken by the government and sold to reduce the national debt. Repubs don't play fair and they don't compromise unless they are stuck. I would really like to see the repub party so badly wounded with corruption and treason charges that no one will be a repub for another 100 years.

[MissWaverly]

23. I agree with you, Iran Contra was more serious that we realized

a cancer on the presidency (to quote John Dean) really started then.

[EFerrari]

13. That's what they said about Nixon and it was a huge mistake.

This country has never moved through that betrayal.

[MissWaverly]

24. I agree with you recently I have come to the belief that

we should have demanded more than just his resignation.

[EFerrari]

40. The things under the rug are still under the rug.

Good luck with your sister, Miss Waverly.

:)

[MissWaverly]

45. Thanks, I try

she said the bloggers jump from A to Z, I rather do that than just rread water.

[MissWaverly]

49. It truly reminds me of the sorcerer's apprentice

Remember the cartoon where Mickey stole the magic wand, 1st there were 5 brooms out control,
then 15, then 50. We have to go back and plug some of these breakdowns in legality or
they just flow into other things. Like the warrantless wiretaps for suspects that morphed
into a demand for financial records on 1 million people partying in Vegas on New Years in 04. Round and round it goes and where it stops, nobody knows.

[rucky]

17. Too divisive?! Compared to the peace and harmony we have now?

Anything worth doing is bound to piss someone off.

[MissWaverly]

25. thank you that is so true

that's what the tv personalities don't do, they are so full of sweetness and light,
they obscure the truth, we have to get beyond the feel good moment.

[Life Long Dem]

18. Tell her not to be a pundit.

Instead everyone needs to act. You don't know what the outcome is going to be so act instead of being a pundit.

[MissWaverly]

26. yes, I wrote Senator Mikulski tonight (before the argument)

I told her what I thought of the Alberto Gonzalez's testimony in the senate (not much); not
under oath, what validity does it have?

[newyawker99]

44. Hi Life Long Dem!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Jacobin]

31. Does she have a time machine?

He can't run for re-election...again.

:eyes:

[MissWaverly]

34. Don't be too sure.

Remember they elected Roosevelt 4 times, okay, we now have the 22nd amendment, well, since
he has a rubber stamp Congress, what's the problem.

[Virginian]

36. Rule says President can be elected twice, Dubya hasn't been elected once.

:sarcasm:

Max is ten years one person can occupy White House, elected or not.

[MissWaverly]

38. That's a relief, but I feel like his Dad's term should count too

Actually we are in our 10th year of the reign of Bush.

[kentuck]

43. Democrats need to win elections in November and then...

..investigate to find the truth about a lot of stuff that people are very concerned about...

[MissWaverly]

46. I believe if we don't deal with the issue about declaring war

on Iraq, that we will have zero credibility for the next 20 years in the world community.
They will move on and we will be left behind.

[gkhouston]

47. I personally feel the "impeachment is too divisive" argument

is codependent. We shouldn't be afraid to rock the boat, to point fingers and say, "BAD!" because what he has done is extremely bad. Sweeping it under the carpet for the sake of avoiding conflict condones behavior that cannot, must not, go unchallenged and unpunished.

[MissWaverly]

50. I agree where do we draw the line

at the point where individuals are being tortured, at the point where individuals are dying in New Orleans thru neglect, where?

[librechik]

52. I think we need a very public display of bringing BushCo to justice

otherwise we will forever be branded as an outlaw nation. We can't just shine it on this time.

However, I really doubt that ANYTHING will happen. It's just too difficult to coordinate, given the divisions in the country.

So I'm trying to get used to the idea of being from a hated corrupt third-world country that has betrayed the world's hopes.

[MissWaverly]

54. I think we will be like Elba

where they exiled Napaleon, we will be too powerful to spit on but we will have no
friends, superman in the Fortress of Solitude.