It's 2006. Why isn't everyone going ape over voting machines?

[smartvoter]

In the fall, a few of us tried to get a petition going to have the DU operators turn the DU activist corps on it and despite unbelievable numbers of kicks and attempts, we could only get a couple dozen interested parties.

Yet we see, over and over, problems with the machines and people recognizing we are probably in deep doo-doo...

I'm curious as to why this is not THE MAIN PRIORITY. We cannot set things right without winning elections and we cannot win elections until they are fair.

Nothing else we can do can even come close in terms of real impact.

[Zookeeper]

1. I agree and am also frustrated that no one seems to be taking...

this issue seriously.

It's interesting that you chose to post this now, since I spent much of my day surfing the web trying to find a quick, concise, bullet-point page of facts and concerns about voting machine fraud and voter supression that I thought I might need for a forum tonight. I didn't find nearly as much info as I expected and what I did find was two or three or...twelve...pages long.

It's time to start looking at ways to distill some of this info into talking points or sound bites that will pique people's interest and move them to delve deeper into the subject.

Someone said to me that we just need to win by a big enough margin that the Rethug's slimy cheating tactics won't make any difference. I question why we should accept ANY handicap!

Also, there is absolutely no reason to expect BushCo cronies not to cheat again, even without Smirk running. They must be terrified at the notion of a Democratic appointed Attorney General, with their war profiteering, lobbying scandals and all-around-law breaking.

If we can't clear up this election fraud, our efforts to elect Democratic candidates will be totally wasted.

[smartvoter]

2. If they lose control of the House or Senate, it'll be investigation time.

After what they put us through over a blowjob in their quest for power, they have to be nearly paranoid of they idea of investigative power given all the SERIOUS issues we now face -- lies leading the country to war, outing Plame, domestic spying, cronyism and an exhaustive list of other issues that we all know too well.

It is no joke to say that they cannot afford to lose the edge in either body this time around and will do everything in their power to stop it.

[itzamirakul]

29. I also agree and it seems that the only thing to do is to keep bringing it

up on this and other boards until enough people are disturbed enough to write to congress and to also make a public stink about replacing those machines.

You see what was done in Haiti when BushCo simply sent their black hired hand, Gen. Powell in to remove Aristede and leave the country totally govern-LESS! And THAT'S Democracy????

I think we need to get some grassroots groups interested in promoting voter machine replacement.

On C-Span a couple of days ago, there is a group that Gen. Ramsey founded and Sheehan is working with called"Impeachment" maybe they could be brought into this idea also or at least some of their members.

[mdmc]

3. well. Nader ain't runnin in 2006

Our losses are his fault, not HAVA or diebold. Questioning the systems integrety is far below any mainstream Dems cares or worries. Let the Greens sue for a recount after the election.

[EFerrari]

4. Good question. I think people still believe that there is a margin

we can win by that will null the Diebold voters. I read that over and over here.

[MoonRiver]

7. And I have NEVER really understood that logic.

They have biased pre-election polls, which will make it look like whatever margin their candidates win by is legit. Exit polls barely exist now, except by Dem watch groups. Pukes will cry foul if those results show something different from the rigged outcome. And it seems that a hacker who can "adjust" a few votes can "adjust" a lot of votes. I hope there is really some reason why they can't steal a lot of votes with the black boxes, but it makes no sense to me that they wouldn't be able to.
:shrug:

[smartvoter]

8. Setting aside the glaring flaw with this of never being able to win

a close election, which is itself a horrible prospect to surrender to, this type of mentality shows the ongoing lack of understanding with respect to technology. If you're flipping votes electronically, you can flip them until you cheat your way to a win. It's math, and as simple as it gets (counting) to boot.

[Burning Water]

5. I've sort of

wondered that myself. Since 2000 we've been screaming about election fraud. 2 years, yet it happened again in 2002. 2 more years, and it happened again if 2004.

In the meantime, we've neglected the day-to-day nuts and bolts of winning elections. So, given this, and our record, or lack thereof, of getting something done about election fraud, will 2006, and 2008 be stolen, too??

Frankly, I'd bet it's already too late for 2006. We may gain a seat, or two, or not. But I don't see us winning either house. Hope to hell I'm wrong. But I'd rather be a pleasantly surprised pessimist than a disappointed optimist.

But it's not too late for 2008.

[zanne]

6. We can fight as hard as we want...

If the media wants to ignore this issue, which it's been doing since 2000, it will. How do the American people know there is a serious problem? When the media says we do. We can talk about it ad infinitum on the internet, but unless the MSM finds its' balls and does some actual reporting about it, then the rightwing pundits will just ridicule us and make all our efforts futile. Before the Iraq war, hundreds of thousands of people, all over the world, marched to make a difference. Aside from a few "mentions", the MSM ignored it. It did not become a big issue because they wouldn't let it become an issue. Ask any ordinary American about these marches now and they'll say "Oh, yeah. I think I heard something about that". The internet is a great place to start, but we can't do everything. We need to find a way to lean on the MSM; we need to hold them accountable for balanced reporting. If we don't we're screwed.

[ariellyn]

10. Right again. Huge march in DC over the weekend--not a peep

from the media.

They do have a large role in determining what people know. But they are not the be all/end all means of communicating. We need an organized way to spread the message--and a concise message.

[smartvoter]

11. "Concise" is absolutely right. nt

[FogerRox]

24. 1200 people aint "huge"

[Zookeeper]

27. Having Media coverage is key, however, after the trashing...

of Dan Rather they are even more terrified of sticking their necks out.

I started to see the dominos fall during the Katrina coverage. Otherwise cautious mainstream mouthpieces were, one by one, starting to express some outrage at the incompetence of BushCo's response.

If we can get this info out and taken seriously by a few MSM outlets, and the rest start to feel safe in reporting it, this will become a national outrage.

(Boy, I hate feeling like I'm tipping my hand to the Rethugs...x( )

[ariellyn]

9. You are so right. I keep seeing all this "2006" and "2008" talk here

as if bygones will be bygones and the coming elections will be untainted.

Nothing is further from the truth.

Even stooopid said "fool me once, shame on me; fool me twice, shame on you..."

Well, we've been fooled twice already.

I'm not pinning my hopes on anything in 2006 or 2008--or ever for that matter--until the elections issue is addressed.

[magellan]

12. It's not just the media that ignores it

It's the Dems, too. Remember the whitewash report they issued last year that said basically "Oh yeah, there were a few problems in the '04 election, but nothing out of the ordinary." This in spite of Rep. Conyers phenomenal effort in raising awareness of the machine and tabulating vulnerabilities in Ohio.

We can't change anything if the leaders on our own side won't even listen.

[helderheid]

14. DFA is on it. I just signed a petition with them for paper ballots.

[helderheid]

13. I am going ape over the machines. Why can't everyone in states that

use the machines vote paper absentee? It may or may not count (my bet is that it would more likely count than the ones on vapor), but it sure as hell would send a signal to the county clerks. Also, work on legislation to require audits of the paper rolls to AT LEAST the margin of error.

[smartvoter]

22. The trouble is few would do it... nt

[EFerrari]

15. Maybe people don't believe that Bush would steal an election.

You know, like he wouldn't wiretap ordinary citizens or lie us into a war. :eyes:

[SmokingJacket]

16. For some reason, it's still a "tinfoil hat" issue.

Lotsa people think that it makes us look like sore losers. They're wrong, IMHO, but that's the vibe I'm picking up.

They think if we focus on the machines, then we ignore their own agenda, which is to move the party farther to the left, or to the right, or to frame issues better. Personally, I think the democratic party really *does* represent the wishes and values of the majority of Americans, even as it is,(though our leaders don't seem to realize that and are always pandering to the mysterious "undecideds.")

Okay... here's another theory: there's an idea that if something happened, there MUST be proof that it happened. But you know what: sometimes things happen and there is no concrete proof. But what CAN be proved, is that election tampering CAN happen.

If election tampering is possible, we must do something to rectify the situation, whether we can prove it really did happen or not.


On edit: Maybe we should alter our message from "Bush stole the election!" which, while true enough, puts people off, to "We must prevent election tampering." :shrug:

[EFerrari]

18. I think people are a little afraid to know that the modicum

of power at their disposal, their ballot, is compromised.

It's irrational (meaning that in a neutral way) because there is too much evidence that a) the Thuggery will do anything they can to get what they want and b)these machines have been shown, over and over, to be hackable. There is an emotion based problem here, not a thought based problem.

It's a lot like responding to a "nuclear threat" by agreeing with Monkey Boy that we have to bomb Iraq or now Iran when common sense and available facts show that we need to do no such thing.

Wouldn't it be great to actually get the seats we win? That used to feel good. lol

[Zookeeper]

26. Yes, this has a lot to do with emotion...

My sense is that people "just don't want to go there." So many people already feel so overwhelmed by their lives that the idea of addressing such a huge issue (technology, fraud and having been mislead on yet another level) is just too much. Especially because the technology involved is so beyond what most people are familiar with.

It also takes a very strong and brave person to be willing to accept that our democracy has been so compromised and manipulated.

[smartvoter]

20. There have been many machine problems well documented.

The trouble is the technology gap. People just don't understand that if you are running a certain machine with a certain type of software and it is counting wrong, all of them are counting wrong. The slip ups last time were things like machines with pre-loaded votes ending up in precincts with fewer voters and things of that sort. It is all but a given, from a technology viewpoint, that all the others operating the same systems had the same vote loading, but it didn't "show" because there were enough people in the other precincts to hide it.

People GENUINELY don't understand that machines are not like humans. They don't miscount a batch here or there. They count the way they are set to count, and if you find one screwed up, ALL OF THEM are screwed up.

Trying to communicate this was exasperating in 2004, when the official answers were "Yes, we know there are problems but they're not enough." If you've got 5,000 extra votes pre-loaded on a machine, and there are 200 of the same machine running the same software, you've got 100,000 loaded votes. Add to it that they are all for one candidate, and you have undeniable fraud, not just random error. And then you have to look at other machines running different software for the same types of patterns.

But to gauge public and even official reaction, you would think that Billy Bob somewhere transposed an extra digit. It just doesn't happen that way.

[Stevepol]

17. The evidence is absolutely clear: The DREs can rig any % necessary.

The 05 OH referendum shows that the "actual" vote is absolutely irrelevant. The only thing that matters is the machines. In OH 4 of the initiatives had overwhelming support (about 60-40% favoring the reforms) and yet the initiatives lost by 60-40%, a 40% point flip!!)

[EFerrari]

19. Magic -- or election fraud?

Sheesh -- are the odds better in Vegas?

Maybe we should start voting in casinos.

[smartvoter]

21. Or at least go there to place a bet on the election.

Vote for your candidate and then vote against him/her at the casino. When you win a pile of money, you can say you have an "inside line."

[AtomicKitten]

23. I think there are so many outrages de jour, it gets lost in the screaming

but it's of #1 importance in my book.

[smartvoter]

25. Yes. The fraud happens and then you get so caught up fighting

the consequences of that fraud that you can't focus on getting rid of it the next time around.

I can see that.

[SoCalDem]

28. Because incumbents usually win, and no one wants to rock the boat

Our party will spend millions of dollars on another GOTV program, the people will show up, and be hassled, sent to wrong polling places, reluctantly given funky 'provisional ballots', and then in the dead of night in an undisclosed location, the people who own/operate and program the beasts will plug in the numbers they need for another "squeaker"..

We have been programmed for this eventuality since 2K. We were told how close it was..we are a 50-50 nation..too close to call.. too complicated to recount..so guess what republicans are "moral" so they must have won..:sarcasm: and the polls will back them up.. not the exit pols, mind you.. we all have been told how "unreliable" they are..

The only hope we have is if enough pissed off people finally wake up, and if they actively LIE to pollsters at every opportunity..perhaps even register republican, and vote absentee so your ballot at least will be accounted for, if not actually counted correctly:)

[ariellyn]

30. kick