The overwhelming majority of Germans did not seem to mind

[Clara T]

Hilter's Rise to Power, a Mini History

Oddly enough, even though his dictatorship very quickly became complete, Hitler returned to the Reichstag every four years to renew the “temporary” delegation of emergency powers that it had given him to deal with the Reichstag-arson crisis. Needless to say, the Reichstag rubber-stamped each of his requests.

For their part, the German people quickly accepted the new order of things. Keep in mind that the average non-Jewish German was pretty much unaffected by the new laws and decrees. As long as a German citizen kept his head down, worked hard, took care of his family, sent his children to the public schools and the Hitler Youth organization, and, most important, didn’t involve himself in political dissent against the government, a visit by the Gestapo was very unlikely.

<snip>

The overwhelming majority of Germans did not seem to mind that their personal freedom had been taken away, that so much of culture had been destroyed and replaced with a mindless barbarism, or that their life and work had become regimented to a degree never before experienced even by a people accustomed for generations to a great deal of regimentation.... The Nazi terror in the early years affected the lives of relatively few Germans and a newly arrived observer was somewhat surprised to see that the people of this country did not seem to feel that they were being cowed.... On the contrary, they supported it with genuine enthusiasm. Somehow it imbued them with a new hope and a new confidence and an astonishing faith in the future of their country.

http://www.choicechanges.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=316

[marmar]

1. That's giving me the creeps...

It all sounds eerily familiar. What do they say about those who learn from history....?

:scared: :scared: :scared:

[Clara T]

2. Those who ignore history

[marmar]

4. Oops, ignore history...that's what I intended to write...

Frightful.

[HawkerHurricane]

10. Those who do not learn history are doomed to repeat it...

those of us who do learn history are doomed to say "I told you so!"

[zbdent]

20. If we're alive at the end

to tell them . . .

[NMMNG]

5. Indeed

Change the nationality of the people involved, as well as a few other details and it might as well be a mini-history of the past five years in the US.

[donco6]

3. In general, Germans loved Hitler.

They felt he was sticking it to those who forced the Treaty of Versailles upon them. All the parades, women fainting - all real, all genuine. And it's happening today. Remember the debates and the woman who practically swooned when she asked Bush her question? It could have come right from a shot from a Munich main street.

[Cleita]

6. I think that this will be our salvation.

The average German was used to a monarchy and military rule. They didn't know much about freedom and democracy. They had a culture that allowed an entitled aristocracy to rule and the bourgeois and working class to follow without question.

Their military was independent of the state, so the state had to court the military to get them to back them. Hitler was no exception. He gave them what they wanted and they backed him until they realized he was an ass and it was too late.

We, on the other hand, haven't had to live like this for very long. I have been hearing Republicans calling in on our AAR liberal radio shows recently saying they just don't back what's going on anymore.

It seems that some of our rubber stamp Republican elective representatives are also getting a bit uppity and publicly questioning the actions of our reich.

[Clara T]

9. Our monarchy is the corporation

I wonder if the mass indoctrination in America through mass advertising, television, schools etc. hasn't been the totalizing system in a more suave technocratic way than the more obvious brute dictatorship/monarchies of Germany.

One characteristic of this suave fascism in America that supports this possibility is the American gulag which we all know house more prisoners per capita than anywhere in the world. This is truly an indicator.

[Cleita]

11. Yes, but when we stop buying, what then?

Look at this for simplistic economics; no job; no salary; no purchasing power; no taxes. Now I know the neo-cons haven't been too worried about our buying power because they have been filling their pockets with corporate welfare and our treasury and all the money that has been borrowed to fund the war. But who is going to fall first from the depression?

I think all the cheap mega outlets like Wal-mart are going to feel the pinch first. Then maybe things might start to change. Uncle Wally isn't someone you mess with.

[Protagoras]

29. Wal-Mart

that's their solution

[Matariki]

13. ah, but they *didn't* have fox news and cnn

[Cleita]

14. They were pretty well innudated with the propaganda

outlets of the time. I keep meaning to write something about how the Nazis kept their media pushing the Nazi agenda. They had print media, radio and film then and used it very effectively.

[LynnTheDem]

15. Germany was a democracy until Hitler's 911.

Germans did indeed know about freedom & democracy.

[Cleita]

22. The Weimar Republic was set up after WWI and existed

until Hitler rose to power in 1933, not even two decades, as compared to a millenium of monarchy. The aristocracy, or the von's dominated the government and the military, many of them was is euphemistically known as "blue bloods".

President Von Hindenberg was a conservative as was the predominant party who controlled the government. Yet, there were pockets of liberalism rising in the urban areas. There was more state autonomy before Hitler and rural Germany was still somewhat medieval and feudal in structure.

Because of the Versaille Treaty and the reparations that Germany had to make for WWI, the country was poor and unemployment and inflation high. When Hitler came along and defied and ignored the Versaille Treaty, while creating jobs, the Germans were quite willing to give up their experiment in democracy for the stability and economic advantages of fascism because it was what they knew that had worked for them in the past.

We on the other hand have had two hundred years of democracy with no kings or elected officials from the royal houses of Europe in our government. Of course now we have our unofficial King George.

[Sapphire Blue]

7. Wake up America. It IS happening here. Now.

And many don't seem to mind... seem indifferent.

[FloridaPat]

8. Germany got stuck with the WW1 bill. Their country got into a major

depression. Inflation was so bad, to buy a loaf of bread you needed a wheel barrow to take the money to the baker. The country was in a shambles. People were starving. Hitler came along and promised to correct everything and he did. At least the Germans were starving. What's our excuse?

[gkhouston]

24. makes you wonder if BushCo has been driving our economy

into the toilet on purpose, now doesn't it?

[tocqueville]

12. the article leaves out very important differences from the US today

1) The Germans had NO experience of democracy : the Weimar Republic lasted from 1919 to 1933. The Germans went from a military dictatorship to another. They were used to it. The US have one of the longest democratic traditions in the West without interruption. Before Hitler's arrival to power, Brüning, Papen and Schleicher were elected dictators too.

2) The economy was in shambles for different reasons (among one the Wall Street crash). Hitler put "economical order" back in the house, which cannot be said of GW. This was seen by many as an amazing recovery

3) Parts of Germany were occupied by foreign troops. What I know of, no foreign country occupy key sectors of the US industry. They might own them, but there are no Chinese of Japanese soldiers guarding factories or Walmarts...

the rest of the world was concerned by what was going on, but neither France, the UK and the US wanted to repeat the slaughter of WWI. People were really weary of war and a whole generation of mostly young people was gone.
Nazism was seen by many as a temporary solution.

But for the Germans there was no difference between the Kaiser or Hitler, except that they could finally eat and even buy a car...

so let's be cautious with comparisons... even if they can be made. Anyway Bush needs another 9/11 to transmit the power to a new dictator, or become one. He had a golden opportunity with 9/11 (MIHOP, LIHOP or not) but he in reality blew it with Iraq, Katrina, the scandals etc... He hasn't won the hearts and minds. Hitler did it.

[LynnTheDem]

16. Germany had experience w democracy until Hitler's 911.

"As Hitler plotted to bring democracy to an end in Germany, ..."
http://www.historyplace.com/worldwar2/riseofhitler/dictator.htm

"When Hitler was appointed in January 1933, Germany was a democracy...."
http://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/Nazi_Germany_dictatorship.htm


Weimar Republic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Adolf Hitler later blamed the republic and its democracy for the oppressive ... marks the end of the Weimar republic and of democracy in modern Germany . ...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Weimar_Republic


Democracy and the Weimar Republic; The Weimar Republic was a democracy.
http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:GfLWZGWcnoUJ:atschool.eduweb.co.uk/redschl/historydocs/Germany%25201919-1939%2520GCSE/Democracy%2520and%2520the%2520Weimar%2520Republic.doc+Weimar+Republic+democracy+Hitler+democracy+Germany&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=7

From Berlin Bohemia to Hitler:

The Weimar Republic's Crisis Democracy

& the Emergence of German Fascism

New College of California

http://www.wbenjamin.org/weimar.html

[Cleita]

23. You need to read, "The Rise and Fall of the Third Reich",

by William Shirer for a more complete understanding of the political situation of the time and what democracy actually meant to the Germans during the days of the Weimar Republic.

[LynnTheDem]

26. You need to have family who lived it.

:)

[Cleita]

27. I was born just before WWII.

After the war many German immigrants came to this country, who had lived through the Third Reich, many were war brides like one of my neighbors. Even in my twenties, I worked with many immigrant German secretaries. (The bank I worked for loved the German secretaries because they worked for less, worked harder than any of us homegrown ones and didn't complain about anything.) These girls were willing to share why they thought their parents didn't think Hitler was that bad when we asked them.

Much of the German character was not to make waves nor question authority as long as you had a job, a home and enough to eat. Democracy seemed not to be high on their list. I'm sure if more Germans had been aware of the genocide going on in other countries, they would have been more outraged.

But, we are seeing the same attitudes here with the freepers. Everything is okay that Bush does in foreign countries because they aren't aware of the real horrors unless something leaks out like the Abu Ghraib prison videos, and even then their Greek chorus, the Rush, the Sean, and the Bill, will try to tell you that they are as harmless as fraternity pranks and their syncophants accept the explanation.

Those Germans who valued democracy most were the ones who were most persecuted by the Nazis, the Jews, the gays and any other group that wasn't homogenous with Aryan supremacy. So I don't know if your family was 100% Aryan German or if they fell into some of the sub groups, but the majority of Germans didn't object to losing the rights and freedom for security.

Unfortunately, they placed their eggs in the wrong basket.

[LynnTheDem]

28. The majority of Americans don't mind giving up their rights & freedom

either.

They will mind one day. They'll mind very much. But maybe that's just what this country needs as a wake the fuck up call.

[LSK]

30. yes that is a very good book

Prior to Hitler, Germans had it very bad economically and a lot of them had a sour taste in their mouth from defeat in WWI. They did not have a booming 20s like America did.

[tocqueville]

33. 11 years don't teach democracy to the masses

the feelings and the understanding has to be deeply rooted. Of course it doesn't apply to those who strived for democracy under the Kaiser : the social-democrats, the intellectuals.... but it doesn't apply to the masses...
Democracy under 11 years is just a varnish... easy to fall back to bad habits...

you have (had) similar problems with most of the Eastern states, specially Yugoslavia, the Baltic states, Finland etc...

My point is that it is far more difficult to subdue the masses in countries with a long democratic experience like the US, the Uk, France, Sweden

but it doesn't mean that democracy will always prevail under all circumstances at least in the short run

[rman]

17. Intimidated into silence does not equal "don't mind"

Sure some actually liked it and probably some "didn't mind".
But the nazis used the Big Stick with impunity, which goes a long way towards keeping people quiet.

[Vidar]

18. Short term, Hitler was very good for Germany. He ended a massive

economic depression--considerably worse than our "Great Depression" and restored national self-confidence. The worst abuses came later and were largely kept secret. Bush has been good only for his cronies, pandering to the fundies even while robbing them blind. The Germans at least had a reason for their sense of denial.

[SpaceCatMeetsMars]

19. Yes and Hitler and Mussolini actually provided some infrastructure and

services for their people at first -- roads, housing, some jobs, social organizations and things like that.

I don't get why the Bush/Cheney supporters think they are getting anything from the Republicans. The only thing I can see is the very, very wealthy have gotten their tax cuts and the rest of the supporters are so brainwashed they just love to hate liberals and love to see the power grab. It seems like they are making the most horrible, stupid bargain as they willingly give up their rights.

[no_hypocrisy]

21. Book recommendation: "They Thought They Were Free"

The natzification of German society was subtle yet all-consuming. It reached into every business, every social group, every household. It totally reorganized German families without their awareness of the process. As long as the Germans were working and could buy meat, they were content with the new program.

[Clara T]

31. Yes, very disturbing book- Remember 70% of people did not vote for Hitler

In the presidential election held on March 13, 1932, there were four candidates: the incumbent, Field Marshall Paul von Hindenburg, Hitler, and two minor candidates, Ernst Thaelmann and Theodore Duesterberg. The results were:

Hindenburg 49.6 percent
Hitler 30.1 percent
Thaelmann 13.2 percent
Duesterberg 6.8 percent

At the risk of belaboring the obvious, almost 70 percent of the German people voted against Hitler, causing his supporter Joseph Goebbels, who would later become Hitler’s minister of propaganda, to lament in his journal, “We’re beaten; terrible outlook. Party circles badly depressed and dejected.”
Since Hindenberg had not received a majority of the vote, however, a runoff election had to be held among the top three vote-getters. On April 19, 1932, the runoff results were:

Hindenburg 53.0 percent
Hitler 36.8 percent
Thaelmann 10.2 percent

Thus, even though Hitler’s vote total had risen, he still had been decisively rejected by the German people.
On June 1, 1932, Hindenberg appointed Franz von Papen as chancellor of Germany, whom Shirer described as an “unexpected and ludicrous figure.” Papen immediately dissolved the Reichstag (the national congress) and called for new elections, the third legislative election in five months.

Hitler and his fellow members of the National Socialist (Nazi) Party, who were determined to bring down the republic and establish dictatorial rule in Germany, did everything they could to create chaos in the streets, including initiating political violence and murder. The situation got so bad that martial law was proclaimed in Berlin.

http://www.choicechanges.com/modules.php?op=modload&name=News&file=article&sid=316

[Swamp Rat]

25. We ain't seen nuthin' yet.

:scared:

[Katherine Brengle]

32. Hitler was a charismatic leader at a tough time for Germany--

economic depression, myriad problems due to disarmament after WWI--they needed something to believe in and he was an inspiring speaker. It's disturbingly easy to get swept up into a fascist state.