IF one of the 8 was YOUR brother or sister, THEN would you give

[nofurylike]

a damn?


EIGHT EXECUTIONS SCHEDULED IN JANUARY!!!

PLEASE ACT NOW!!!

The National Coalition To Abolish The Death Penalty provides this very simple way to make a difference:

http://www.ncadp.org/

to act, click on each name in their list of
IMMINENT EXECUTIONS - right upper column on site. an easy to use form will assist you in writing the governor of each specific state:

January 17: Clarence Ray Allen, CA - ACT NOW!
January 19: John Spirko, OH - ACT NOW!
January 19: Julius Murphy, TX - ACT NOW!
January 20: Perrie Simpson, NC - ACT NOW!
January 24: Clarence Hill, FL - ACT NOW!
January 25: Marion Dudley, TX - ACT NOW!
January 31: Jamie Elizalde, TX - ACT NOW!
January 31: Arthur Rutherford, FL - ACT NOW!


TO SIGN UP FOR EXECUTION ALERTS:

http://www.ncadp.org/execution_alerts.html


RESOURCES TO PARTICIPATE IN ABOLISHING THE DEATH PENALTY:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x25452

PLEASE sign up for one or more organizations.
IT IS SIMPLE to sign up to receive action alerts and get to petitions!!


Thank you!

[madeline_con]

1. Dupe. It's in the activist forum...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x25740

[nofurylike]

2. this is a discussion. that is an activist hq alert. please discuss if

you wish to.

thank you.


peace

[madeline_con]

4. Now that I've been steered to the proper area for discussion...

I'll repeat my contention that more prisons will have to be built to house all those who will spend the remainder of their lives in prison if and when the DP is abolished.

Not to mention the rising health care costs of caring for an aging population of murderers.

As I said in the other thread, I say this at the risk of being flamed. :hide:

I suppose there are too many falsely accused and wrongly put to death to really support the DP any longer. I've had a change of heart recently concerning my beliefs. I still think we'l need more cells if this thing passes, though.

[nofurylike]

6. thank you for coming to this thread to discuss, madeline_con. i very

much appreciate your stand against the DP!
please act to abolish it! and please spread the word!

i think if the prison-industrial-complex was not making such a fortune on prison labor/slavery; and if it didn't so increase the power of repugs to have prisons in districts where it increases their population count, while denying inmates the vote; and if the (in)justice system was not such a powerful tool of descrimination and genocide; and if so many states didn't deny felons the vote, then they wouldn't be incarcerating so many on false charges and on victimless crimes, such as possession of marijuana.

then we'd have much more room in existing prisons.

still, many prisons are in trashy condition, and there should be some better facilities, but repugs also get a lot of propaganda value out of people being afraid of crime. so they have little interest in making that system actually work, and rehabilitate.


peace

[jmm]

8. Not that money should have anything to do with it but

it costs alot more to try a capital case than it does to house a prisoner for the remainer of their life and pay for their health care.

[nofurylike]

14. thank you, jmm, for making those crucially important points! eom

[Clark2008]

17. So should we just jail the lawyers?

:evilgrin:

Just kidding. I covered courts for eight years as a reporter. I count many attorneys among my close friends. Heck - if I had time to go back to school, I'd be one.

[nofurylike]

55. maybe we should. or at least the prosecutors who knowingly manipulate

evidence, or juries, entirely in order to get the death penalty...
KNOWING that their not doing so, their acting legally, will not bring a death sentence.

and some of those lawyers do deserve some sort of legal repercussions - such as the public defender who slept through a case that led to execution, among so many other incompetent defense efforts.

hmmm...


peace!

[Hippo_Tron]

9. It still costs 1/3 of what it costs to execute somebody

Appeals are incredibly expensive. It costs 1/3 of an execution to house somebody in prison for life. I would imagine that this statistic does not take into consideration the rising health care costs (a valid point) but I can't imagine that building new prisons isn't factored into the cost. Even so, I still think that it would be cheaper.

[nofurylike]

15. yes, thank you, Hippo_Tron! people need to know that. eom

[madeline_con]

41. But, don't they get the appeals anyway?

Whether on death row or in for a life sentence, they can appeal. That particular cost goes wihout saying.

The question would then be, is it cheaper to keep them 20 years, then execute or keep them potentially longer than 20 until they die in prison. (?)

[Hippo_Tron]

45. The death sentence part is automatically appealed

At that stage of the game, the attorneys have already accepted the conviction and not trying to overturn it. They are just trying to get the death sentence changed to life in prison. Such appeals don't happen for life in prison.

[Obamanaut]

46. Disregarding the cost of trial and appeals, the daily cost for a

death row inmate is considerably more than for an inmate in general population. I used these same links in a thread awhile back, and they are still usable:

It costs approximately $72.39 per day to incarcerate a Death Row inmate.
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/oth/deathrow/index.html

“it cost $48.23 a day to incarcerate and care for an inmate in FY 2003-04...”
http://www.dc.state.fl.us/

Excerpt from USA Today re death penalty:


http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-12-13-death-penalties_x.htm

WASHINGTON (AP) — The use of the death penalty dropped this year for the fifth year in a row, as questions grow about the guilt of the condemned and more states take a hard look at their use of executions, says a report by a group critical of the punishment.
<snip>
The majority of executions, 85%, took place in the South.
<snip>
. "The public's confidence in the death penalty has seriously eroded over the past several years."
<snip>

[Bill McBlueState]

11. actually, the prison crowding problem is not related to the DP

"Only" about 1000 people have been executed since 1976. While I believe even one is too many in a civilized democracy, had those people not been killed, the extra 1000 people in the nation's prisons would hardly register.

[nofurylike]

16. well said, Bill McBlueState. thank you! eom

[Harper_is_Bush]

25. And again, allow me to alleviate your lack of knowledge on the subject....

Currently; with the DP, two seperate prison systems are required. One for death row inmates, and one for all others.

Eliminating the DP would actually result in a large savings by allowing an entire system to be closed. With the money saved in that regard, the few extra spaces required for the people the government wouldn't be KILLING would be easily covered and then some.

If money is your concern, surely you are aware that study after study supports the claim that the DP is much more expensive than keeping a person in jail for life.

[nofurylike]

28. thank you for this important info, Harper_is_Bush! eom

[nofurylike]

3. ps, thank you for posting the link. peace. eom

[sandnsea]

5. Thanks

Wow, Texas is a scary place. Very shady and contemptable stuff going on in Texas. I could never live there, that's for damned sure.

[nofurylike]

10. i agree that texas is scary. many there are trying to fight that, though.

maybe if more progressives did go there, there'd be a chance?

there is a man on death row there, Marvin Lee Wilson, who is documented as retarded, IQ 61, whose execution the court has refused to reconsider because his lawyers were too late in filing the right papers, by one day.

AAAAARRRGH!!!!


DEATH BY TECHNICALITY
A missed filing deadline is not a valid reason to proceed with the execution of a mentally retarded inmate of Texas' death row
Dec. 21, 2005

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/3541192.html

A federal appeals panel has refused to allow a lower court to reconsider the death sentence of Marvin Lee Wilson, a 47-year-old Beaumont man with a documented IQ of 61, who should fall under the protection of a Supreme Court ruling banning the execution of retarded people. The Fifth U.S. Circuit Court ruled that Wilson's appeal could not be heard because his attorney missed by one day the federally mandated filing deadline to get permission from the appellate court for a rehearing.

-snip-

Because Texas law forbids concurrent federal and state appeals by convicts, by the time the state court had denied Wilson's petition, the time period to contest the execution in federal court had nearly run its course. While admitting that Wilson's attorney had presented evidence adequate to establish his client's retardation, the three-judge federal panel declined to allow the appeal because of the blown deadline, "however harsh the result may be."

It's unthinkable that the state should execute a person ineligible for that punishment because of a legal mistake or conflicting court deadlines beyond the control of any inmate, much less a retarded one. A fully competent lawyer has difficulty enough navigating the tangled web of state and federal law governing death row appeals. Certainly, a convict with the mental capabilities of a first-grader cannot be made to pay with his life for his lawyer's failure to file a timely appeal.

-snip-

If Wilson is mentally retarded, as the evidence indicates, his death by lethal injection will be one more indication of the capriciousness and injustice of capital punishment as practiced in Texas. If the state executes Wilson, then it will have established a new low for Lone Star justice: death by technicality.

***

please act to abolish the death penalty! please spread the word!
thank you!


peace

[Zhade]

7. K/R

NT!

[nofurylike]

20. thank you, Zhade! eom

[Zhade]

38. DU helped me recognize the folly of being pro-DP.

No thanks necessary!

[John Q. Citizen]

48. Wow, That's cool!

[nofurylike]

50. that's great, Zhade! it's so good to hear! peace! eom

[Freedom_Aflaim]

12. If one of the eight killed your brother or Sister..would you give a damn?

I understand your position.

But when you have had a family member murdered in cold blood..it affects your position...tremendously.


More so than having a brother or sister who is a murderer who is death row? I don't know.


Clearly, family members of killers, and family members of those murdered are going to have sharp heavily biased opinions.

Perhaps that is why law making is left to those who can view the issue without such heavy biases


On edit: My point is that one should support ot fight the death penality based on factual issue. Not whether or not the convicted killers might be a family member, or whether their victims might be a family member.

[Sapphire Blue]

18. Victims’ Families Call for End to Executions

Victims’ Families Call for End to Executions

Statement of Murder Victims’ Families for Human Rights and The Journey of Hope….From Violence to Healing on the 1000th Execution

As our country approaches the 1000th execution since 1977, we think about the losses represented by that number. We think of the loss of the life of the murder victim, and the loss to that victim’s family and community. We are people who have experienced that loss directly. The question, “How would you feel if someone in your family were murdered?” is not a hypothetical question for us; it is the reality we must live with every day. But we do not believe that the death penalty will bring us closure, healing, or justice. Another killing does not bring back our family member and it does not make us feel safer. We would like to live in a society that demonstrates its concern for victims by devoting resources to preventing violence and to addressing the real needs of victims in the aftermath of violence.

We think, too, about all the families who have been left behind in the aftermath of 1000 executions: the families of the person who was executed. After 1000 executions, how many parents, siblings, children, and other relatives are left isolated in their grief and lacking the support offered to others who suffer the loss of a family member? It is time to consider the social costs of the death penalty: how many people are affected by a single execution? In particular, how many children?

As families of murder victims and families of people who have been executed, we stand together and declare that it is time to abolish the death penalty.

Murder Victims’ Families for Human Rights and the Journey of Hope…From Violence to Healing are two organizations whose membership includes survivors of homicide victims who are opposed to the death penalty.

Contact information:

Renny Cushing, Executive Director
Murder Victims’ Families for Human Rights
617 491 9600 (0) 617 930-5196 (c)
[e-mail]
www.murdervictimsfamilies.org

Bill Pelke, President
Journey of Hope…From Violence to Healing
877-924-4483 (O) 305-775-5823 (C)
www.journeyofhope.org
[e-mail]

http://www.1000executions.org/victims.html

[nofurylike]

23. thank you for that very important information, and links, Sapphire Blue!

peace!

[nofurylike]

19. you make very good points, Freedom_Aflaim. thank you! you might

find this excellent and courageous organization interesting, on that subject:

Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation, Inc.

http://www.mvfr.org/

i must point out that my reference to people perhaps caring more if it concerned them more immediately-personally, is a reflection of how few DUers seem to take action against the DP. me, i always presume that liberals and progressive are, of course, against the death penalty. i'm surprised when that is not so.
still, so few actually take action against it!

thank you for replying so thoughtfully.


peace

[Freedom_Aflaim]

24. Thanks, I'll check it out n/t

[nofurylike]

34. thank you! peace! eom

[Pacifist Patriot]

31. I agree.

I have always found this argument maddening. I have lost a family member due to a capital murder and it did not change my position on the death penalty. As a matter of fact, several of my pro-DP relatives surprisingly became anti-DP.

I agree the argument should not be based on whether the victim or the convicted killer is a family member.

State sanctioned murder is either acceptable or not.

[nofurylike]

32. well, having appealed to DU on so many occasions on those very

grounds, i'm disappointed by the lack of concern here. so, the question is about what it would take for most people here to ever act against the DP.

it is to say exectly what both of you said. that it shouldn't HAVE to be a personal matter.

"...THEN would you give a damn?"

thank you for posting!


peace

[Pacifist Patriot]

37. Personally, I'm so far beyond objective on the issue...

I don't see how anyone can NOT be taking action on it. I'm very grateful you provided the link. Thank you!

[nofurylike]

40. thank you, Pacifist Patriot! i don't see how anyone can NOT be, either. it

is the most crucially important time on this! people all over the country and all over the world are seeing it can not go on.

but, at the same time, the rate of executions is about to increase, rapidly.

this is too important a time to NOT act!

thank you for acting!


peace and solidarity!

[Samurai_Writer]

79. My uncle was nurdered 'in cold blood'

And it changed how I view the death penalty. I'm from Texas, and I always thought that the death penalty was OK for certain cases. After I sat through the trial for my uncle's killers, I had a complete change of mind on the subject. I now oppose the death penalty 1000%.

So don't be putting words in the mouths of victims' families, please. Thanks.

[Freedom_Aflaim]

80. "So don't be putting words in the mouths of victims' families"

I respect your views and have sympathy for your loss.

You seem to think that I took a position on the DP in my post. If you read it again carefully, I did not.


Right now I am conflicted on the Death Penality. Very conflicted.

Why? Because a close relative of my own was murdered. Recently. We buried her 2 days before Christmas of this year.

So as you can see, these are my own words coming out of my own mouth.

I respect your views on the DP.
Please respect mine (even though I've yet to represent them in a posting)

Peace.

(on edit: I feel cheap posting about my experience in this thread. I'm not really sure why I shared this, but I suppose its because you have also gone through this pain also. Im still sorting out my feelings and its going to take awhile. again peace.)

[jmm]

13. I could say a bunch of nasty things about Texas right now

but really we all should be ashamed to live in a nation where this could happen.

http://www.democracyinaction.org/dia/organizations/ncadp/campaign.jsp?campaign_KEY=1737

Since his trial, Elizalde has claimed that he did not have adequate counsel at trial. However, the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals held that although Elizalde had a right to “competent counsel”, the law only requires “that counsel shall be ‘competent’ at the time he is appointed.” According to the Texas Court of Criminal appeals, “although Texas does recognize a limited right to competent counsel, it does not recognize a right to effective assistance of counsel.” Consequently, as long as Elizalde’s lawyer was deemed competent at the time of appointment, Texas does not require that that lawyer do an effective job of representing Elizalde. Unfortunately later appeals courts have agreed with the Texas Court of Criminal Appeals’ interpretation of Texas’ laws regarding competent counsel.

[nofurylike]

22. "we all should be ashamed to live in a nation where this could happen."

ABSOLUTELY, jmm!!!!

INSANE!!!
it has come to me that they act on an "if we can get away with it" basis.

thank you!


peace

[aikoaiko]

21. Life in solitary confinement. & no visitors.

No ammenities like tvs and books. No windows. No fuckin children's book authorship. Just a fuckin hole.

When thats the sentence, then I'll work toward eliminating the death penalty.

I don't like the death penalty either and I particularly don't like it when innocent people are executed, but anything more than just enough sustenance to keep vicious murderers alive is too much for me to bear.

[nofurylike]

26. we still do not have foolproof ways of finding out who the "vicious

murderers" actually are.

as long as we have an inarguably prejudiced system, it can not be given that kind of power, or the right to self-police.

and as long as crime of all kinds is mitigated by social and economic factors, then we cannot be THAT fixed and cutthroat about punishment.

perhaps, though, we need to consider being that coldly absolute in punishing prosecutors who KNOWINGLY railroad people into being imprisoned and executed. maybe we could be a little more sure, after a few are prosecuted and punished so viciously.

thank you for replying, aikoaiko!


peace

[Harper_is_Bush]

27. Nevermind the family of the condemned.....

what about the thousands of people who have to administer the institutionalized killing?

Watch this: http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=1112387

Only 20 minutes long.

NOT AN ANTI-DP RANT!! It is an honest examination of the effect the DP has on people, told by those who administer it.

Only 20 minutes long. The most amazing part is at the end when a guy from the tie-down crew describes how his brain broke one day.

[nofurylike]

29. thank you for that link, Harper_is_Bush! will have to see later, but it

sounds very important. a side of things i really never even think about, i'm afraid.

more when i see it later...


peace

[Harper_is_Bush]

30. You're welcome. I think it's incredibly important...

and an aspect of the DP which is under-exposed.


It's obviously just an unprovable theory, but IMO the DP is one of the major reasons that the USA has such a violent nature on a micro and macro level.

Respect the lives of your citizens on a government level and they will feel that life has more value.

[nofurylike]

33. "one of the major reasons that the USA has such a violent nature..." YES!

absolutely!

and why we've been able to be convinced that government is a different class - species even! - than the people.

thank you so much for your insights, Harper_is_Bush. i tell you, much of why i am able to look critically at this government is because i have had the blessing of hearing how this place is affecting the world, from the point of view of people of other countries, many Canadian.


peace and solidarity!

[nofurylike]

72. THIS IS AN OUTSTANDING RECORDING! PLEASE LISTEN TO IT!

how i wish that more of those who administer the death penalty would speak out like this; and would act to put an end to it!!

thank you for providing this information and link, HIB!!


peace and solidarity!

[Harper_is_Bush]

88. You're welcome...

The truth behind the walls is a too much ignored story.

The DP causes pain for everyone involved, including those family members who thirst for thier "closure" and "justice". It just drags out thier pain and prevents closure. And it turns the memory of thier loved one into another death.

[nofurylike]

91. "The truth behind the walls is a too much ignored story." it is painful to

hear their stories. i was surprised by how openly they were willing to express their feelings. i always presumed they would have to shut down their feelings to do it. but once i realized they don't, then i was stunned to realize how it must feel.

they deserve us to rescue them too, then.

and yes!! "those family members who thirst for thier 'closure' and 'justice'. It just drags out thier pain and prevents closure. And it turns the memory of their loved one into another death."

countless reasons we must end this insanity!!!!

thank you for your empassioned efforts to raise consciousness on this sickness of this country.


peace and solidarity!

[nofurylike]

35. I GUESS MOST OF YOU DO NOT GIVE A DAMN, NO MATTER WHAT!!

EIGHT EXECUTIONS SCHEDULED IN JANUARY, AND EXECUTIONS RAPIDLY ON THE INCREASE FROM NOW ON!!!!

DO YOU GIVE A SHIT?!!?!

[Pacifist Patriot]

39. I wouldn't necessarily assume that.

There are plenty of posts with calls to action like this in which I follow the links, write the emails or letter, make the phone calls, etc. I just don't come back and say that I did it. You are probably influencing far more people than you realize. I understand it's maddening but many people don't stop to make acknowledgments on posts like this.

[nofurylike]

43. that is very kind of you to say, Pacifist Patriot. and it does help!.

sadly, there are 82,000 DUers. maybe .01% act on this? maybe??

shameful. don't you think so?

when they come for us, it'll change, eh wot?

and they will.


i am comforted by your saying that, though. thank you, again, Pacifist Patriot.


peace and solidarity!

[Dongfang Hong]

64. Mmm...nope.

[Sapphire Blue]

66. Welcome to DU, Dongfang Hong...

From your profile: "Oh, and if you're curious, Dongfang Hong means "The East is Red." "

Thanks for the info; I'm also curious why you chose this as your DU name?

[Dongfang Hong]

73. Sure.

I have a general fascination with China in particular and the Chinese revolutionary period from the turn of the century to the establishment of the People's Republic of China in specific.

My DU name is taken from Mao's declaration upon seeing the sunrise from the top of Taishan (a holy mountain halfway between Beijing and Shanghai)--a declaration both literal and symbolic. (Of course, I doubt it actually happened as is claimed, but it makes a poetic story.) "The East is Red" was later taken as the name of a revolutionary song that was used as the de facto Chinese national anthem during the Cultural Revolution, and then a revolutionary musical featuring the song. Today, Chinese public clocks (such as the one over Beijing's train station) chime the song on the hour.

Since I believe the growth of China is going to be the determining factor of the 21st century in the same way that America's growth shaped the 20th, I figured it was a good enough handle.

[nofurylike]

36. EIGHT EXECUTIONS SCHEDULED IN JANUARY!!! EXECUTIONS ON

THE INCREASE, RAPIDLY, FROM HERE ON!!!!

DO YOU GIVE A SHIT?!!!?!

[Sapphire Blue]

49. You asked "IF one of the 8 was YOUR brother or sister, THEN would you give

... a damn?"

Doesn't it seem that so many sit in comfort, judging or ignoring others who need our voices to speak out on their behalf... be they death row inmates, people living & dying in poverty, hurricane & earthquake survivors, the people of Darfur, and on, and on, and on... each and every one a brother or a sister. When will the people on this planet start thinking about & caring for each other as the brothers & sisters that we are? When will the indifference stop? When will we realize that we are in this together, that each of us is a minute speck in this universe, yet everything that we do has an impact on this universe? Why can't we strive to make a positive impact? Why can't we open our hearts?

In the words attributed to Chief Seattle...

"This we know: the earth does not belong to man, man belongs to the earth. All things are connected like the blood that unites us all. Man did not weave the web of life, he is merely a strand in it. Whatever he does to the web, he does to himself."

May God / Goddess / Allah / Jehovah / YHWH / the Creator / Waheguru / the One have mercy on us, awaken our souls and restore humanity!

[nofurylike]

53. thank you for these moving comments, Sapphire Blue! i agree with you

absolutely!

my hope is that DUers will read this and that understanding will immediately emerge in them.

it is my intention to discover if ANYTHING will move a large number of DUers to action on this.

i will try anything to get them to read and act, or consciously decide not to act.

tomorrow, another approach. we must go all-out NOW on this. the country and the world are seeing that the death penalty must end. it is the most urgent time in decades for making our so-called leaders see that and act.

at the same time, the pace of executions is now about to accelerate. insane!

thank you for speaking, and so very wisely, Sapphire Blue!


peace and solidarity!

[mondo joe]

42. What an embarrassingly poor argument!

Appeals to affection for family members are a very poor argument for OR against capital punishment.

There's a reason these verdicts are not in the hands of families of victims or perpetrators, you know.

I'm opposed to the death penalty, but I find this nothing but an embarrassment.

[nofurylike]

44. it is an argument for DUers to give a shit and act, not on the DP. thx. nt

[mondo joe]

61. To ACT on what? To ACT in what fashion? Be specific.

[nofurylike]

68. please sign the abolition petition. please go to the NCADP site and

send letters to the governors in those states with executions scheduled this month. please sign up for alerts on when executions are approaching, to write governors. there are links to do all of those, in the OP.
please write LTTEs opposing the death penalty, explaining the facts to others. please write your state legislators opposing the death penalty, when that is appropriate. please write your federal legislators opposing the death penalty, repeatedly...

there is much you can do.

thank you for asking, mondo joe.


peace

[nofurylike]

89. i put together what you mean. slow, ah. this thread addresses those who

are anti-DP already, but do not take action.
it is also under my presumption that a large percent of any progressive community will be anti-DP.

nothing in this thread is to argue about the pros and cons OF the death penalty. my quandry is how to motivate those against the DP to act.

i presumed, also, that anyone who is pro-DP will either ignore the thread, on seeing its substance, or will post their view if it is altered by their contemplating its possibly involving a family member.

a thread title can only say so much. that's a problem. i thought a long time on what might call those of any position to at least consider their own view in that light.

is that any more clear?

btw, there are many who support the DP who do because they mistakenly believe it is only done to absolutely certainly guilty murderers. they might want prosecutors to be more certain, if they could realize that all of our own family members can just as easily be railroaded as some have been.


peace!

[Pacifist Patriot]

47. Except it's not an argument for or against capital punishment.

It's a plea for action. I find nothing embarrassing about someone who cares passionately about an issue trying to put a personal face on it to encourage people of like mind to act.

[nofurylike]

51. thank you for getting it and putting it so clearly and supportively,

Pacifist Patriot. that helps a lot.


peace and solidarity!

[mondo joe]

60. "to act"? And what form does that action take?

Then tell me it's not about capitalo punishment again.

[Pacifist Patriot]

84. I would think it obvious.

The original poster was asking people to go to the link and send the emails to the respective governors. It was an appeal to personal emotion that those who are opposed to the death penalty act on their opposition by following the instructions in the link.

I didn't say it wasn't about capital punishment I said the emotional plea in this case was a call to send email, not in the context of a debate on the pros and cons of the death penalty.

Perhaps the OP was clumsy in the appeal, but I hardly think it worth the outrage...edited to add: on either side.

[mondo joe]

86. Then it is, of course, about the pros and cons of the death penalty -

though you say it's not.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

59. Very well put.

[nofurylike]

76. i would value any suggestions of how to inspire DUers to strong action

to abolish the death penalty, please.

thank you!


peace

[nofurylike]

78. i would value any suggestions of how TO inspire DUers to strong action

to abolish the death penalty, please.

thank you!


peace

[Clara T]

52. kick for info

[nofurylike]

54. thank you, Clara T. peace! eom

[nofurylike]

56. so, what would move DUers to aggressive action to abolish the DP? eom

[nofurylike]

57. public opinion is turning against the DP, just as the rate of executions

is about to increase, rapidly.


peace

[Freddie Stubbs]

63. It will only end when voters elect people who oppose the death penalty

So far that hasn't worked out so well.

[nofurylike]

70. our constant actions opposing the war are the only reason for even the

little change that we've seen in some senators and representatives. they too were not against the war, at some point in the past. enough action, continuously enough, does make a crucial difference.
they are also now hearing of the broad opposition to the DP, here and around the world.
this is a critically important time to act!

please act to abolish the death penalty!
there are links up there in the OP.

thank you for your comment, Freddie Stubbs.


peace

[nofurylike]

58. it is both the best chance we've had to abolish the DP, and the most

urgent, in a long time!

ACT!!! NOW!!! PLEASE!!!!!

[AirmensMom]

62. kick

:kick:

[nofurylike]

71. thank you, AirmensMom!

:hug:


peace and solidarity!

[Dongfang Hong]

65. Yes, then I would give a damn.

But they aren't, so I really don't.

I generally oppose the death penalty, but at the same time am against politically-driven clemency decisions. I believe we should not set a precedent of life being decided by letter-writing campaigns. Though life and death decided under institutionalized law is unhealthy, life and death decided by a straw poll of activists who could be bothered to write to a governor is even more unhealthy.

I am in favor of overturning the death penalty. I am in favor of granting clemency if there is evidence the condemned is innocent, even if it is ambiguous. I am against granting individual clemency to right a universal wrong.

[nofurylike]

67. then you do care. you oppose the death penalty. is signing a petition too

much to ask of you, in opposing it?

there are links in the different linked threads, links in this OP. i hope you will act.

thank you.


peace

[Dongfang Hong]

74. Signed.

[nofurylike]

75. thank you so much, Dongfang Hong.

i read your comments and i see you have thought about this, so i have been wondering. will you please advise me, what you do feel might make a difference? i really need to know. if not letter campaigns, what do we do until govern-ers get it that the DP must end?

you wrote: "I am in favor of granting clemency if there is evidence the condemned is innocent, even if it is ambiguous."

three such cases arose last month. one received clemency, entirely because of years and years of pressure and education from abolition organizations and experts - including letter-writing and petition campaigns. two were killed, while doubts still existed.
the same is about to happen again, though i do not know details of these individual cases, yet.

a man verified as being mentally retarded remains on death row in texas, bcause his lawyers missed a filing date - for understandable reasons - by one day. it would be a crime - illegal - to execute him, but so far, texas is not backing down on this.

what do we do?

i sincerely ask this. i see you have thought about it, and i need help knowing how to proceed on this.

thank you.


peace!

[Dongfang Hong]

77. Now, here's what I mean by my dislike of letter-writing.

Say, the Stanley Tookie Williams campaign. I personally didn't like that. Very little of it was about Tookie's guilt or innocence; it was about the fact that he supposedly had become a good man. If Arnie were to let Tookie live, it would not be because he was innocent--he had quite a few chances in court to show that. It would have been because activists had pressured him to save Tookie's life. So, of course, the next time someone like that comes up, we have a geared-up fight on both sides, and one man's life becomes a pawn in the hands of two wrangling political forces.

This is why I don't like letter-writing campaigns on behalf of individuals. I don't think we're best served by granting individual clemencies when the problem is the system. In my mind, there are two kinds of good activism: trying to change the law, and calling attention to people in power breaking the law.

Now, when we come to cases like the one you mentioned, if you've represented it correctly, I would certainly advise a letter-writing campaign. The man should not be executed--the Supreme Court was very explicit on this. His death would be a violation of the law, and so a pressure campaign is in order.

As for what to do in general? Write legislators and governors, of course. Donate money to action groups, volunteer, the standard. Mention clemency for individuals if you like, but the purpose should be an end to the DP, not the life of one man. If we concentrate the pressure on individual cases, the pressure ends the minute the man's life does.

But I'm convinced--absolutely convinced--that the DP will not be ended by legislative action. It's too popular. It will be ended by the Supreme Court, and likely in the next decade or two. They've certainly been moving that way as of late, with restrictions on executing the mentally retarded and minors. And if it's inhumane to give to a 17-year-old or a man with an IQ of 60, why is it humane to give to a 19-year-old with an IQ of 90?

[nofurylike]

81. thank you for your thoughtful reply, Dongfang Hong.

as it turns out, we agree on strategy.
as abolitionists, we are forced to battle the death penalty on both fronts. while we work to abolish the death penalty, there are, continually, individual cases that can not wait for that change to occur. those persons will DIE before that happens.

this is the about the case i referred to:

DEATH BY TECHNICALITY
A missed filing deadline is not a valid reason to proceed with the execution of a mentally retarded inmate of Texas' death row
Dec. 21, 2005

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/editorial/3541192.h...

A federal appeals panel has refused to allow a lower court to reconsider the death sentence of Marvin Lee Wilson, a 47-year-old Beaumont man with a documented IQ of 61, who should fall under the protection of a Supreme Court ruling banning the execution of retarded people. The Fifth U.S. Circuit Court ruled that Wilson's appeal could not be heard because his attorney missed by one day the federally mandated filing deadline to get permission from the appellate court for a rehearing.

-snip-

Because Texas law forbids concurrent federal and state appeals by convicts, by the time the state court had denied Wilson's petition, the time period to contest the execution in federal court had nearly run its course. While admitting that Wilson's attorney had presented evidence adequate to establish his client's retardation, the three-judge federal panel declined to allow the appeal because of the blown deadline, "however harsh the result may be."

It's unthinkable that the state should execute a person ineligible for that punishment because of a legal mistake or conflicting court deadlines beyond the control of any inmate, much less a retarded one. A fully competent lawyer has difficulty enough navigating the tangled web of state and federal law governing death row appeals. Certainly, a convict with the mental capabilities of a first-grader cannot be made to pay with his life for his lawyer's failure to file a timely appeal.

-snip-

If Wilson is mentally retarded, as the evidence indicates, his death by lethal injection will be one more indication of the capriciousness and injustice of capital punishment as practiced in Texas. If the state executes Wilson, then it will have established a new low for Lone Star justice: death by technicality.

***

i am extremely knowledgeable of the facts in Mr Williams' case, and i assure you, he never ever received a fair trial. from what you said, that should matter to you, a lot.

i pour my life into fighting, first-and-foremost, ANY execution where there is ANY REASONABLE DOUBT of guilt, or of a fair trial having been given. that must take first priority, because those people will BE KILLED, and might well be INNOCENT.
you express that you feel the same way about that.

so, we agree on that too.

you wrote:
"But I'm convinced--absolutely convinced--that the DP will not be ended by legislative action. It's too popular. It will be ended by the Supreme Court, and likely in the next decade or two. They've certainly been moving that way as of late, with restrictions on executing the mentally retarded and minors. And if it's inhumane to give to a 17-year-old or a man with an IQ of 60, why is it humane to give to a 19-year-old with an IQ of 90?"

i absolutely agree. the problem there is that while we are fighting all of those, equally hard, in the case of minors and the mentally retarded, a state is actually acting illegally, and setting a precedent (which we assent to, that is, VALIDATE! by not acting sufficiently to stop), which we will later have to fight even harder to re-reverse.

the biggest problem is: what is "sufficiently"? and how do we inspire people to do that? i agree that our legislators are not going to do it - UNLESS we are relentless in our expecting them to.

thank you!


peace and solidarity!

[Dongfang Hong]

90. Not a problem. It's a pleasure to talk with a like-minded, intelligent

person.

As regards Tookie, I agree there is certainly reason to believe his trial may have been unfair. But he had numerous opportunities to prove that to both state and federal courts. In each and every instance, his conviction was upheld as fair and just. That is no automatic guarantee of guilt, I am aware, but it makes the argument that his trial was unfair a difficult one to make.

Thank you for the article, you are correct in that it is certainly an abuse of power and a failure of justice.

I don't quite agree that we validate a policy by insufficient opposition. We may enable a policy by opposing it insufficiently, but, well...a candidate who wins by 51% of the vote has less of a mandate than one who wins by 70% of the vote, and a proposal that goes through despite opposition is considered less of a 'final word' than one that is passed unanimously. Even though it may seem as if defeats render work useless, that is not the case. Any opposition weakens a precedent, even if only slightly.

All that said, this is an interesting precedent. On a purely logical basis, I would agree with the judge's decision to execute: I believe that the law is the law, and may never be broken; failures of the law are for legislatures to fix, not courts. And this man's execution would not be strictly illegal, I believe. The Supreme Court declared executions of the mentally retarded illegal. In compliance with this order, Texas set an appeals process. Mr. Wilson did not propery file for his appeal, and so the law says he must die. Texas is likely in compliance with the SC order, and so nothing illegal is being done. This is the way that it would be resolved if it were brought to court, and so it unfortunately would be legal for this man to be executed.

But that said, legal or not, it's clearly morally wrong. The Supreme Court denied the ability to execute the retarded because it was inhumane. This man is retarded. Killing him is therefore without question inhumane, and the fact that it is technically legal does not change the fact that it is in direct opposition to the spirit of the Supreme Court ruling, and does not lessen the fact that this man should live. I would guess that if he could get to the SC, his penalty would be overturned, but regardless, here it is more clear than in most cases.

Peace and Solidarity to you as well.

[nofurylike]

92. that is kind, thank you. the feeling is mutual, Dongfang Hong.

and thank you for that thought-provoking post.

i agree that we don't actually validate, if to mean grant approval of, a policy by insufficient opposition. but to enable a policy is to make it valid, in effect. we have a "silence equals assent" system here. and while it's true that opposition weakens a precedent, morally, when the result is death it still has been 100% effective. the precedent value is less, yes, so re-fighting it would be more possible. though i fear that one intention of texas is to push such lines in every way possible, knowing that we are virtually powerless against even illegal activities. i have come to realize that many states are basing executions on an "if we can get away with it" policy.
heartbreaking to see happen in modern times. didn't we think this country was growing up?

it is true what you say of Mr. Wilson's case. that is the very chapter, verse the federal appeals court cited. and, having read your comments, i must now agree that his execution would not be illegal, technically.

i'm not entirely sure that there aren't other laws that would supercede those time limits, in the case of a retarded person. something like ADA or comparable to paupers' waivers, or such. judges can waive in mitigating circumstances. couldn't they have some leeway, if they wanted to? and couldn't a determined (well-paid?) lawyer argue that it is discrimination against a retarded person to hold him to a more exacting standard than they do, for instance, tax evaders?
i know, wishful thinking, because even if there are such laws and leeways, he would have to be given the court opportunity to even argue it. and they don't have to give him that now. he does have other appeals due to him. maybe SCOTUS will come through on this one.

what about laws covering inept defense? it was the lawyer's error, not Wilson's.
i'm just searching for any legal possiblity. i have often been in a situation where we're fighting an execution, but certain a court will stop it - KNOWING there is legal reason a court certainly should - only to find too late that it will not. it's that idealistic part of me, and some others, that still can't believe that policy now (modern times...) is to err on the side of brutality.

i'm just wondering what you think about it all.

i held comment on Mr Williams for after the other, because there is no point in arguing that here and now. i will just say that when i said he never ever had a fair trial, i meant *ever*, including in later court proceedings.

the big question:
what next?
eight executions (though news last night that one, John Spirko, OH, might get a 6 month delay). and fighting one at a time is futile. one takes full-time. and these eight will all be in a two week period!

and all over the country, death row inmates are coming to the end of decades-long appeals proocesses.

aargh!

which means that abolition is every chance we have.

SCOTUS is hearing some DP cases soon. one on the 11th is about whether they can still execute someone (in this specific case, Paul House, OH) if there is ANY doubt of guilt - for instance, if exculpatory evidence comes in after all appeals are used up.
maybe, just maybe they'll finally realize that there are just too many 'ifs' about it all.

and Virginia might soon to get proof of whether they did execute an innocent man in 92, Roger Keith Coleman. if it is so, and is proved, it will be the first scientific evidence of the execution of an innocent man. some think if there is (DNA) proof he was innocent, it will alter public opinion, already now leaning towards favoring life-without-parole over execution.

thanks to your thoughtful posts, you have become the lucky(?) recipient of my predawn meanderings, thank you very much, Dongfang Hong!

i appreciate your name, thanks for telling us about it!


peace and solidarity!

[nofurylike]

69. DP facts from: Murder Victims' Families for Reconciliation, Inc.

"Reconciliation means accepting you can't undo the murder
but you can decide how you want to live afterwards."

http://www.mvfr.org/DeathPenaltyFacts.htm

Did You Know. . .

Innocent people have been convicted and sentenced to death.
Since 1973, more than 115 innocent men and women have been released from death rows across the country (Northwestern University, DP Information Center). Researchers Radelet and Bedau found 23 cases since 1900 where innocent people were executed (In Spite of Innocence, Northeastern University Press, 1992).

The death penalty is applied unfairly and arbitrarily.
In 1999, the American Bar Association, a conservative group of 400,000 lawyers, reiterated its call for a moratorium on executions because of serious concern with racial disparity in death sentences and the failure to provide adequate counsel and resources to capital defendants. In January 2000, Republican Governor George Ryan called for a moratorium on executions in the state of Illinois and in May 2002 Governor Paris Glendening did the same in Maryland. In January 2003, Governor Ryan pardoned four men and commuted the sentences of 167 death row inmates to life without parole or less because he found the death penalty process "arbitrary and capricious and therefore immoral". The men currently on New Mexico's death row could not afford to hire their own lawyers. In January 2002, Republican Governor Gary Johnson declared New Mexico's death penalty to be bad public policy because it was not applied fairly and innocent people could be executed.

Scientific research indicates capital punishment is not a deterrent to homicide or other violent crimes.
A recent New York Times survey found states without the death penalty have lower homicide rates than states with the death penalty. The gap between the cumulative murder rates of death penalty and non-death penalty states actually widened in 2003, from 36% in 2002 to 44% in 2003. "The two states with the most executions in 2003, Texas (24) and Oklahoma (14) saw increases in their murder rates from 2002 to 2003. Both states had murder rates above the national average in 2003: Texas - 6.4, and Oklahoma - 5.9. The top 13 states in terms of murder rates were all death penalty states. The murder rate of the death penalty states increased from 2002, while the rate in non-death penalty states decreased." (www.deathpenaltyinfo.org ).

The death penalty is more expensive than life imprisonment.
A 1993 Duke University study showed that the death penalty in North Carolina costs 2.16 million dollars more per execution than a non-death penalty murder trial. Research in other states indicates executions are three to six times more costly than life imprisonment. In 1999, the New Mexico State Public Defender Department estimated the state would save $1 to 2.5 million dollars per year on Public Defender costs alone if the death penalty was replaced with an alternative sentence.

-snip-

***

(much more information on this excellent organization's site!)


peace

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

82. If The Point Is To Rally Against The DP, Why Do We Have To Do It Behind A

persons name? That is what makes me feel I am condoning what said killer had done, or sympathisizing with them, etc...

If it is the DP itself, and not a rally cry for the individuals innocence etc, than why wait each time for an individual to be scheduled for execution? Why shouldn't the letters be to all governors, statesmen and lawmakers designed to overturn the DP on the macro level, rather than the micro individual level, and done on a constant basis?

As soon as the trumpeting gears up specifically for an individual than it makes me feel like I am supporting the murderous criminal somehow, and I would rather not associate myself with that type of scum.

I would have no problems with macro petitions designed at overturning the DP on the merits of the DP though, as opposed to an individual.

[nofurylike]

83. thank you for posting, OPERATIONMINDCRIME. this is a "macro-effort,"

and the organizations involved are abolitionist, on the broad scale.

the petition linked in the OP is a "macro-petition." based on what you've said, i hope you will sign the petition.

the problem is that we - though not you, should you not support those individuals, certainly - have to also work on individual cases, because people will be executed in the time of working for abolition, and because executions are happening so fast, and on the rise.

at the same time, many individual cases also have serious prosecutorial errors that we absolutely must fight, as well. worst of all, in the majority of cases those errors indicate ethnic discrimination.


peace

[Obamanaut]

85. A good site you might consider visiting. There is a wealth of

information to be had from thousands of members - former inmates, inmate families, interested persons. There is a large section on the DP. Guests can read but not post, registration is free.

www.prisontalk.com

[nofurylike]

87. thank you for posting this information and link, usnret88! it is an

excellent place to read and learn!

it is included on the DP abolition resources list in Activist HQ...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=106x25452

that's where i learned about the Finnish prison system i often use as an example of a system ours could learn from.

thanks to your comment, i am off to read more there, seeking ideas.

WE MUST STOP THE DEATH PENALTY!!! NOW!!!!


peace and solidarity!