We desperately need a reinstatement of the draft

[Ugnmoose]

Before you start flaming please hear me out. I am a product of the 60's and the Viet Nam War era. What is going on in Iraq right now is a frightful reminder to me of that time. Except for one thing. Back then we had a military draft and eligible young men like myself didn't want to get drafted to go fight in some god forsaken rice paddy and risk getting shot up or killed for no good reason. And we made our voices known. How? By protesting and yes even rioting in the streets. At the City University of New York we shut the campuses down completely and they had to cancel the remainder of the semester.

This country desperately needs a wake up call. The reason there seems to be such passivity over this war is because there is no buy in by the sheeple. Believe me, if it was their son or daughter who was about to be yanked out of here and sent to the hell hole in the desert, they and their kids would be spilling blood in the streets, just like we did back in the 60's.

[madeline_con]

1. I wouldn't put a Kent State incident past DUH-bya. n/t

[MadMaddie]

24. I think a Kent state event will be the catalyst...

It's going to be an event where they stifle the right to free speech and somone will get killed. It's coming, don't know when, don't know where, don't know how...but I feel it coming...:nuke:

[mim]

42. That's not what happened in 1970

The killings at Kent State had a chilling effect on the protest movement. They paved the way for the Selfish Seventies. Once people knew they could die for their views, they reconsidered their activism.

[USA_1]

2. DRAFT ISN'T NECESSARY ...

... activism is all that is needed.

Like you I was at City University in 1970 and was active then and today. It's time for people to wake up and stop waiting passively for Armageddon.

[Ugnmoose]

6. We already have activism

The problem is there are still not enough activists. Most Americans want to remain blissfully ignorant or complacent. Their attitude is that as long as I am not affected I am not going to give a shit. Only when it hits home directly at their door step will they start to care.

[Mnemosyne]

9. The apathy is truly disheartening. n/t

[BoneDaddy]

28. I agree but..

the main point of his post was to show that the American People have not suffered enough under the administration yet and an act like the draft will really show the American people the need for change.

Typically, most americans I know are reactive and not proactive. They will not make drastic changes in health, lifestyle etc...until they feel the effects of it.

[Joe Fields]

41. It may me the necessary thing for people to wake from their

hypnotic state.

[Crazy Guggenheim]

3. You just may be right. What a wakeup call.

[Vincardog]

4. Well let the Repubs call for the draft to support Bush's war

[Silverhair]

5. HELL NO !! NO DRAFT !! BTW - I am a Vietnam Vet too. NT

[USA_1]

7. Exactly!

No draft - just change in the White House and Congress via activism.

[Daphne08]

31. I'm from the Vietnam era, too, and I also say NO WAY!! n/t

[Cleita]

8. Yes, but you guys brought about the volunteer army.

I thought it was a bad idea back then. What I thought should have been done, is that both men, and women (I was ahead of my time on this) should go into the military for a year or two to be trained in case there might be war. I also felt that the volunteer part should be about actually going into combat.

Yes, they still laugh at me, but think about it. If you volunteer for combat, most likely you will volunteer for a just war, and poo-poo a war for oil. We know this for a fact because, Americans signed up for WWII in droves. They wanted to fight to protect their country, especially after Pearl Harbor.

They weren't happy about Korea or Vietnam. What if they could have refused to go? I think history would have been different.

I think the Swiss have the same concept. Every able bodied man is a soldier and will be called to duty in a war of defense. It makes you ponder why Switzerland could remain neutral all these years. Hmmm???

[Silverhair]

10. The problems with that.

First, It lowers morale badly. Most people don't want to be in the military and would have a bad attitude.

Second, the universal military service is EXTREMELY expensive.

Third, the people would NOT stay trained. I spent 9 years on active duty. If I were back in today, I would NOT know how to operate most of the equipment, nor would I know current tactics. I would have to be retrained. And many people would NOT be in physical condition for battle.

Fourth, It take TIME to form small unit cohesion. You can't just throw a bunch of people together and expect them to function right. It just doesn't work that way.

BTW - The Swiss are able to maintain neutrality in modern times because there are no enemies on their borders. Historically, during WWII, nobody wanted to try to attack into the Alps. The terrain is just too great for defense. The Swiss require everybody to be in the reserves and they practice locally. Their military is entirely defensive. After 1812, the USA adopted a policy that we will fight our enemies in THEIR country, not ours.

Furthermore, I take it that you think the United Nations (It WAS a UN action.) defense of South Korea was wrong since you list it as a war that people should have refused to go to?

[Cleita]

12. I have often wondered where you get your ideas from. Obviously not where I

do. People used to like the military even though they said they didn't in peace time. I know I have six male relatives my age who did their duty between 1958 and 1962.

The draft worked quite well after WWII in peacetime, between the Korean police action and the Vietnam whatever they called it officially. Guys liked the military then. Their parents liked even better because it straightened out sons they couldn't. It also created the patriotism the neo-cons are trying to wave their flags all over these days.

Now about the Swiss. Remember the Julius Caesar, circa 52 BC? He had no problem conquering the Helvetii, today known as the Swiss. This was back when Caesar didn't have satellite maps. The Swiss even call themselves Helvetii on one of their coins today.

I really find this mountain barrier argument amusing, along with the ocean barrier argument, because even the highest mountains on this earth has been mapped and flown over by now.

I flew over the Andes over and over in prop planes, before there were jets that do it very easily these days. It wasn't even that hard to walk over them either over the paths.

The Alps aren't really that formidable, especially with all the paved roads going into them. So, there really is a reason, no one, including Hitler, wants to mess with the Swiss and it isn't the mountains. Try a better argument.

[Silverhair]

13. May I suggest that you read what I actually wrote?

I said that the Swiss have no enemies on their borders. The Alps are not as formidable as they used to be, but any mountainous terrain still poses difficulties. Large armies still have to move by ground. Airborne troops are still light infantry and are not able to take heavy equipment with them, and have to be resupplied by linking up with relieving ground troops. Air supply of a fighting force is still problematic.

In WWII, mountains were a very serious military problem. Notice that the Allies repeatedly got bogged down by the Italian terrain, which is gentle compared to the Alps.

I have personally been in both countries, (Italy & Switzerland) and have a understanding of what attempting to be an agressor force in them would be like.

Going back to Ceasar is reaching a bit. Holding the high ground didn't mean as much back then as would later, although it did mean something. But the range of the high ground was a bow shot distance. With accuracy, fairly short. With guns and cannons, the importance of high ground grew. (Greater range, ability to see further, etc.)

I spend 9 years on active duty, including a year in Vietnam, so I think I know what I am talking about regarding military matters.

[Sammy Pepys]

29. You nailed it, man

Your four reasons are the heart of the problem with a draft. If I may, I'd add that:

1) By the time you have actual inductees to present for military duty (who would still have to be trained), who knows where we'll be?

2) The modern military is just not keyed to work on a system of raw manpower numbers any more. It's no longer a matter of getting bodies, it's getting people who can work with the advancements that military technology has made and continues to make (relates to your #3)

[GemMom]

16. The Swiss men also take home their guns

after they serve their compulsory time.

[Cleita]

17. We have a winner!

Could it be that Hitler thought twice about invading a nation, in which every farm and home, there were armed and trained soldiers to greet his army and who were willing to fight to the death to save their country? Believe me it wasn't the mountains.

[NNN0LHI]

11. Won't be able to invade and occupy Iran without one n/t

[Lady President]

14. Disagree, but I understand the thought

I complete understand the idea that people are beginning to feel that something drastic and horrible needs to happen to wake up the citizens, but I can't put our young people at risk. Yes, a draft would make people understand how desperate our situation is.

To me, this is like saying that even if we lose abortion rights, it will be fine because people will then vote Dem. I just not willing to see 1000s of young women die to make a point and raise awareness.

[Greyhound]

20. OMG are you trying to introduce reason and compassion to this

circlejerk? Silly woman.

[hopeisaplace]

15. Not an actual Draft now - Just the Media discussing it could be coming

would probably perk ears, and bingo ...they get their wake-up call.

[DemonGoddess]

18. You have a point.

If people REALIZE that there is much more to lose, because their sons and daughters will be drafted instead of volunteering, that would definitely spark an outcry. My youngest son enlisted in the Marines this last summer, but that's no surprise. We have a history of volunteerism in our family. So, instead of just us parents whose children have volunteered going through angst and turmoil because of all this, worrying about whether or when the child will be deployed, if ALL the other parents were in the same boat of having to worry about their children in "far off lands" it would certainly open some eyes at the LEAST.

[Serenades]

19. sfhsfhsgsfghdsgf

I'm afraid that people would just go and not protest or do much of anything because they think this is WWIII and Iran is going to bomb us with their "aresenal" of nuclear weapons. Everyone was fooled in Iraq why not now? I'm not convinced most are against this Iraq war. I never hear anyone talking about it or giving it the slightest thought.

[Cleita]

22. Sometimes not giving it the slightest thought is the denial some

people exercise because they don't approve of it and they feel powerless to do anything about it. I found a lot of this happened during the Vietnam War, among those who weren't activists, protestors or potential draftees. They didn't want to discuss it or even think about it. But on the rare occasion they did, they expressed their disapproval of the war.

[Swamp Rat]

21. DRAFT COLLEGE REPUBLICANS!!!

DRAFT COLLEGE REPUBLICANS!!!

DRAFT COLLEGE REPUBLICANS!!!

DRAFT COLLEGE REPUBLICANS!!!

[Just Me]

23. I can not possibly advocate a draft when I oppose PNAC and,...

,...the neocons.

The neocons will have to bring that on. I won't do it. I think it would be politically foolish for the Democrats to do it because, ultimately, it simply encourages the PNACers to proceed with their plans. Screw that.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

25. I agree. Better to have a citizen army than a "professional" one.

Having said that. I burned my draft-card at a demonstration in '67. No great heroics on my part, I had already put my 4 years in. I opposed the draft all during the war in Vietnam and briefly did some "draft" counseling ("Canada is North, Sweden is East").

As you say, the apathy about the war is astounding and the average American pays it no mind as long as he/she is unaffected (relatively speaking) by it.

I believe that the current silence, or aquiescence, will be replaced by thunderous outcry if the PNAC/colonialist are forced to re-institute the draft to further their happy vision of an all powerful corporate empire.

[Sammy Pepys]

26. Won't happen

DoD doesn't want it. The admin doesn't want. Congress isn't going to initiate one if they don't have to.

[2bfree]

27. That is a load of crap.

I have two draft age sons and I will not sacrifice them so that you can prove a point. Maybe if would be better for people to boycott the military, if our country can't get anyone to enlist then they can't have anymore bogus wars.

[rinsd]

30. I will not advocate conscription as a political means to an end..

There is no way I will advocate something I myself am unlikely to be eligible for.

Think about what you are saying, we need to make the situation worse so that we will gain a political advantage for this war. This will not prevent future wars or actions by the military which eventually the public becomes uncomfortable about.

[jane_pippin]

32. Please stop advocating killing my friends to teach us a civics lesson. n/t

[pnwmom]

33. Do you honestly think more than 50,000 troops would have died in Vietnam

if we had had to rely solely on a VOLUNTEER ARMY? And just who would those volunteers have been? That's why we started the draft -- because the war effort required it. In order to wage an increasingly unpopular war we instituted a draft.

[Ugnmoose]

34. Here is another reason for promoting a draft

It will flush out the chickenhawks in the Administration and Congress whose sons and daughters might have to serve. I think this was the motivation behind Rep Charlie Rangel (D) New York in calling for the reinstatement of the draft. We are all tired of seeing these war-mongers parading around like patriots when they skipped the military entirely when they had an opportunity to serve.

[rinsd]

35. Or you could just ban the military entirely

It's about as likely top happen and has less of chance of someone dying so you can make a political point.

[GoldenOldie]

39. Do you think these War Profiteers would last long with their supporters

If they realized they had to lay their asses on the line for them.

Those now filling slots within the Pentagon and our Houses of government would have to think more about their actions with their sons and daughters lives depending on their support.

We have The Young Republicans who call themselves patriots as staying home, building their political resumes with campaigning and doing whatever it takes to get rid of The Loyal Opposition. They could care less about supporting the troops or the poor idiots who volunteer to serve and die for "a Noble cause."

[rinsd]

40. chuckle

I love how the draft is a universal cure all.

It will suddenly make people not start wars.

How many times did that actually happen? ZERO.

The draft contributed the Vietnam War ending quicker but it really did not gain steam until 10's of 1000's were already dead with god knows how many horribly injured.

The draft did not stop the Civil War even though there were draft riots that made the 60's look like a tea party.

"Those now filling slots within the Pentagon and our Houses of government would have to think more about their actions with their sons and daughters lives depending on their support."

What a fallacy, it didn't stop them before. What makes you think it will now?

[blindpig]

36. Rather a National Service of which the military is one option. n/t

[earth mom]

37. I agree.

Let's see some sacrifice by the privileged elite and oh yes, the rethugs.

[WI_DEM]

38. You're not the only one who believes this--Charlie Rangal does too

and has called for reinstatement of the draft. It seems that with many people the only way they will wake up and say "Enough!" is if they or theres are potentially eligible to be put in harms way. I see all of these young people on campus (usually young men) who support Bush and the war, and I wonder--"ok, if you support this--why aren't you putting your butt on the line?" It's very easy to support something like Iraq when there are no consequences involved for you.