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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:20 AM
Original message
Question: Why are Castro apologists allowed to spam DU?
This is Democratic Underground, right? "Democratic", as in "democracy". As in, everything that is not Fidel Castro. As in, against political prisons, secret police, state-organized political rallies, etc., etc., etc.

But for some reason, a contingent of Castro suck ups spam DU with the wonderful propaganda that is Fidel:

"He's really a great guy!"

"There are no political prisoners in Cuba; they're really just slimy criminals."

"Amnesty International's report on Cuba's human rights violations are a lie. Amnesty has been infiltrated by CIA agents."

"What do you mean that there's political repression in Cuba? I've never heard that before. You must have been reading Miami Cuban exile newspapers to believe that."

"Or maybe you're a Miami Cuban exile yourself."

............................................................

Ok, I think you get the picture.

Now, we don't let pro-GOP posters on DU, for obvious reasons. I don't see why we should let pro-Fidel propaganda on DU, either.

Disclaimer: I think it's perfectly fine for people on DU to criticize American foreign policy toward Cuba; I'm 100% in favor of lifting the trade embargo, for example. And when it comes to politicians, especially the Bushes, who exploit the issue of Fidel Castro for their own ends -- I'm all in favor of exposing that, and ridiculing that, for what it is. But this "Fidel is a great man who who does not repress his people and everybody is happy in Cuba and I'm going to spam DU with this ridiculous garbage la-di-da..." really has to stop.

:rant:
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orange00m Donating Member (15 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:22 AM
Response to Original message
1. You raise interesting questions.
I will be interested in responses. Being new here I am also kind of confused as to what members think this forum is about!
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mattclearing Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:55 AM
Response to Reply #1
88. Welcome to DU!
:hi:

This forum is for lefties of all stripes, from moderate Democrats to socialists. You should read the rules page, which has the best description.
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AngryAmish Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:23 AM
Response to Original message
2. Bush is the real criminal
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QC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
8. There can only be one criminal in the world at a time?
Interesting....
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SeveneightyWhoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:07 PM
Response to Reply #2
122. LOL! Your post made me laugh out loud.
Let's hope you're being facetious.
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:24 AM
Response to Original message
3. Oh for God's sake; get over your phobia of communists. That is SO
Cold War.

I don't "love" Castro. I do "love" the fact that the country is literate--I do "love" the fact that those people have healthcare.

Whine all you want about "Commies...." but at least they are terrified of going to the doctor for fear they can't pay----as in this "great" country.
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dryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:29 AM
Response to Reply #3
11. Fidel Castro....
is a dictator clear and simple. I think we should lift the embargo to Cuba to help the Cuban people. As far as 'healthcare' and 'literacy' goes, these issues have improved in Cuba but as in other communist countries you don't have to pay for these services but you don't have freedom to speak out against the government, the press is not free, and they have no economic freedom either.
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #11
14. Did you read my post? I said I don't love Castro
At all, as a matter of fact---

I agree with your post completely.

I just don't suffer from the Castro Phobia from Hell that some people here seem to have.

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dryan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 01:58 PM
Response to Reply #14
119. I sent my post....
to comment on poster No. 3's remarks.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:31 AM
Response to Reply #3
13. LOL
nothing like an ad hominem attack to illustrate your lack of argument chops. OP said nothing about communists. I have no dog in this fight, except like the OP, I wish that all trade sanctions would be lifted, but just for the sake of argument, if life in Cuba is so great, how come Cuban citizens are constantly risking life and limb to get out?
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:33 AM
Response to Reply #13
16. Not ALL Cubans are climbing in homemade boats
that is such a Republican argument---

Do the math; what percentage of Cubans are really truly desperately trying to get out?

I wonder how the per capita "escapees" would compare to people desperately trying to leave the US?

And NO. I don't like Castro. I just get damned sick and tired of this bizzaro phobia some people have left over from the past.
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:38 AM
Response to Reply #16
21. How do you know?
Are you familiar with Cuban society?
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:48 AM
Response to Reply #21
35. Ever seen Buena Vista Social Club?

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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #16
45. Again with the pathetic
ad hominem attack. I have such contempt for this tactic. People who use it should be called out. Gee, I don't know how many people in Cuba "desparately want out". Let's define the term: I say that anyone who wants out enough to get on a boat and try and sneak onto American territory qualifies. In that case, it appears that there have been hundreds of thousands.

http://www.canf.org/2005/1in/noticias-de-Cuba/2005-dic-19-tensions-rise.htm

Again, I don't particularly care one way or the other about Cuba or Castro. People who attack by calling others commie phobic, or by sneering that an opposing point of view is a republican point of view, that really gets me going.
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:50 AM
Response to Reply #16
83. Can't respond?
What's the problem? I provided you with a link. I called you on the bullshit "You're spewing repub rhetoric", and you're still posting on this thread.
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:26 AM
Response to Reply #83
99. OMG!!! I am SO sorry Cali.....But, I felt the need to do the dishes,
wash my hair, walk the dog and change the damned laundry!

I should NEVER have let that stuff get in the way of answering you i-fucking-mediately.

Can you excuse me while I get dressed and then read your link? I will be back, don't sweat it.

btw---that response you were referring to was saying "hi" to a DUer that I have been wondering about. Pardon me for not getting to you first.

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0rganism Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:55 PM
Response to Reply #13
141. maybe because the USA guarantees Cuban 'refugees' instant citizenship?
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 02:57 PM by 0rganism
Haitians try to come to the USA, to the point where they die trying, and they don't get citizenship -- hell, they get deported.

Mexicans cross the borders daily by the thousands. If the INS catches 'em, blammo! right back to Juarez.

Guatemalans and Salvadorans and Chileans have tried to come to El Norte over the decades, to claim political asylum from death squads. Do they get citizenship? Hell no, they get sent home to die.

But Cubans? Hey, set foot on the coast of Florida, and you're home free. The surprising thing is that MORE of them don't try it. Besides the risky boat trips, they can also apply for immigration visas, thousands of which go unclaimed every year.
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K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #13
157. People from all over the world sneak into the US.
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 04:53 PM by K-W
Gee I wonder why people in a small Island nation under economic embargo would want to go to the 'land of opportunity'

Yah, it must be Castro.
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:49 PM
Response to Reply #157
173. If they keep the travel ban up, most Americans can't learn personally
if they've been duped or not.

If someone has been there and says it's not what we've been told, you can be sure there will be right-wing idiots who will come out of the woodwork to try to cancel out what he/she has revealed by labeling them "communists," or "admirers" or "supporters" of dictators.


Stop that poster. He's a Communist! dictator admirer!


One day the lid will blow off this thing, and Americans WILL all find out what the heck's been going on, and there will be some very disgusted people.
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:35 AM
Response to Reply #3
18. You get health care and food in jail too
Doesn't mean that it's such a great place. Why do you see Cubans risking their lives to get to Miami and not the other way around? Actions speak louder than words. Have you ever spoken to a Cuban exile?

This romanticization of Castro is ridiculous.

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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. Have you ever spoken to a native Cuban who isn't in exile, who is visiting
a different country on vacation?

Please.

Read my posts before you respond. The very WORD "Castro" seems to make people on this board turn into whackos.

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:42 AM
Response to Reply #20
27.  I AM Cuban and have listened escapees accounts of atrocities
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 09:45 AM by blue2helix
The word they use is "el dictador." And they don't think he is so great. Despite your romantic idea of him. Murder, incarceration in shit and piss filled floors, and constant beatings.

So please, spare the sanctimonious bullshit.
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:44 AM
Response to Reply #27
30. Excuse me. Point me to a post where I display a romantic notion of this
man.

Or should I just pay no attention to you because you clearly can't read the words, "I don't love Castro."
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:47 AM
Response to Reply #30
33. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #33
39. I guess. I personally think it's a left over collective phobia
if one mentions Cuban Dr.'s, or anything positive about this island....I mean, hell....I could write...."Gosh, the water around Cuba sure looks purty!"

And by damned, I would be labeled a dictator lover in a New York second.
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Donald Ian Rankin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 12:04 PM
Response to Reply #39
109. I think it's a matter of emphasis.

Consider the difference between

"Fidel Castro is an oppressive, murderous dictator but has nevertheless done some good things for the living standard of many Cubans"

and

"Fidel Castro has done some good things for the living standard of many Cubans but is nevertheless an oppressive, murderous dictator"

I think each of these indicates where the speaker's sympathy lies, although they both have the same top-level content; if someone chooses to express themselves in the first way rather than the second I would have severe issues with them, and I think worryingly many DUers do.

Which is not to say that Castro *hasn't* done some good things wrt literacy, healthcare etc. However, those are not, I think, significant mitigating factors against his record on human rights, and I think that any comment on him that doesn't strikes a *tone* of approval, regardless of the top-level content, is cause for considerable concern.
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #30
37. Just "Love" the way things are down there.
I do "love" the fact that the country is literate--I do "love" the fact that those people have healthcare.

Whine all you want about "Commies...." but at least they are terrified of going to the doctor for fear they can't pay----as in this "great" country.



Yeah, everybody is just so happy, Cubans are a very happy people and they "love" their free healthcare.

The "free healthcare" thing gets old. Like I said, you also get free healthcare in jail.

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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:52 AM
Response to Reply #37
43. Yeah, well...see...here's what's wrong with your "in prison" garbage:
They don't have to stop going to school, going outside to play...cooking dinner with their spouses...etc...to get decent healthcare.

I did NOT write that Cubans are "happy." I wrote that they are scared of going down financially because of Dr. visits. I wrote that they can read.

As far as being happy clappy---I haven't a clue. Then again, I don't know a whole bunch of deliriously happy Americans right now either.

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:00 AM
Response to Reply #43
51. How do you know? (talk is cheap)
Have you spoken to victims of Castro repression? Talk is cheap. How about having your wife prostitue herself for a living, and she is the main breadwinner in the familly? Great familly life!

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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:02 AM
Response to Reply #51
53. And the embargo has nothing to do with the poverty

Yeah let's let the Miami Mafia take Cuba back over that'll do the trick.

:eyes:

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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #53
57. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:09 AM
Response to Reply #57
60. Ah, name calling now, I see you've lost the argument.
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 10:10 AM by 400Years


I also see you can't read. Show me where I said "ALL"

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:13 AM
Response to Reply #60
63. I guess it's cool for you to stereotype Cubans
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 10:46 AM by blue2helix
Whatever, I believe in Free speech. So go ahead with your foolishness.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #63
64. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:17 AM
Response to Reply #64
66. Still Cheap
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 10:18 AM by blue2helix
Avoiding the truth. Who have you spoken to or what evidence do you have that things are so geat down there? I've already asked you several times.

What, no cheesy tourist photo as evidence? Please. You are very immature and have much repressed anger in you.

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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:21 AM
Response to Reply #66
69. You are the one suggesting Cuba is so bad not me
but yet you have nothing but hearsay to provide to the debate.

You are the one that can't address what is actually said and instead argue as if you are debating an imaginary opponent who says the things you hear in your head.

Cuba is not very free but neither is the U.S. and a big reason for that is U.S. foreign policy.

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #69
72. Still avoiding the question
Still talking shit. How have you come to your conclusions? How do you know the things you are saying? All I get back from you is crap. You avoid this inquiry every time.

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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #72
94. What the hell are you talking about? What question?
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 11:13 AM by 400Years

I know the things I am saying because I live in reality.

You are the one suggesting that Castro is evil blah blah blah not me.
Proving your claims in incumbent upon you.

What I have said here is very clear and easy to understand but you insist on talking to ghosts.

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 12:00 PM
Response to Reply #94
108. What is your evidence for your claims?
Still avoiding the question. How have you come to your conclusions? What do you know about the plight of Cubans in Cuban society and how do you know it? EVIDENCE for what you are saying.

Why is that so hard for you to understand? Just admit you're just talking shit and you really don't know and I'll respect you more. Or are you going to keep avoiding the question?
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:28 PM
Response to Reply #108
128. Your the one making claims not me. Have you been to Cuba?

As far as how people live in Cuba the documentary Buena Vista Social Club showed life in Cuba pretty well. Did you see it?

I'm not claiming life is perfect in Cuba but I am saying that people happily live there or the entire group of people in the Buena Vista Social Club would have stayed in the U.S. when I saw them play here but they didn't. They were all very nice people and spoke positively about life in Cuba.

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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:39 PM
Response to Reply #72
155. Looks like you're the one "talking shit," BlueHelix
Chill out.
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:01 PM
Response to Reply #155
163. How is relaying info from tortured Cubans "shit"
I have heard first-hand from two individuals who were tortured in Fidel's jails, one for trying to escape and the other for political viewpoints.

My simple question is, on what are you basing your information? Don't believe me, why would you,
Look up Amnesty International if you have too.

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-cub/index
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:39 PM
Response to Reply #163
170. Tortured like the pitiful Armando Valladares, who also claimed he was
tortured dreadfully? He claimed guards pee'd on him, that he was paralyzed, etc. His friends were astonished to see him, expecting him to be delivered from the plane in a wheel chair, instead seeing him bounding toward them to give them big hugs. Here's just one article on the fella:
From:From: Karen Wald
Subject: Human Rights as Theatre --then and now
Date: Wed, 4 Jun 2003 15:14:54 -0700

When the UN's Human Rights Commission was meeting a few months ago, and the White House and corporate press was screaming once again about "human rights abuses in Cuba" that they habitually ignore anyplace else in the world, I was desperately looking for this article I wrote in 1989, after attending the Human Rights Commission in Geneva that year and getting a taste of what that forum is really all about.
(snip)

(scroll to around 1/3rd down the page)

VALLADARES, ACTOR OF STAGE AND SCREEN

The center-piece of the US delegation's theatrical performance was Armando Valladares, a former political prisoner, poet and paralytic, -- or policeman, terrorist and imposter (depending on whose version you believe). In any case, an apt protegee of the film-actor president who appointed him.

Although ultimately of no consequence whatsoever to the final decision of the Commission, the question of Valladares --was he or wasn't he? (a policeman, a terrorist, a poet, paralyzed )-- dominated the debate between Cuba and the United States, and captured most of the media attention, for several weeks.

The US attempted to parade Valladares and a number of other rabidly anti-Castro Cuban exiles --many of them former prisoners -- before the Commission last year, too. But, according to the equally anti-Castro Miami press, they were given too little hearing by professional diplomats and international media, despite President Reagan's speeded-up granting of citizenship to Valladares to make him an official member of the delegation.
(snip)

Roa supplemented his remarks in the hall with a press conference repeating the charges that Valladares was a member of the pre- revolutionary Batista dictatorship's police force and a post- revolutionary terrorist band convicted for placing bombs in public centers.

He bolstered his arguments with an array of time-yellowed, worn documents and newspapers -- and a copy of a purloined US State Department letter from Secretary of State George Schultz to all US missions abroad, trying to "rehabilitate" the image of Armando Valladares.

Aside from this, the stolen US document probably did far less than the documents the Cuban government itself brought out to demonstrate that the current HRC ambassador had lied when he denied membership in the Batista police force and about his claimed paralysis while in jail. (Videos the Cubans played for the press at their Geneva Mission showed Valladares getting up and walking out of the room after being shown films taken secretly in his cell while he was doing exercises, at a time when he was still supposedly "paralyzed".)

The only thing perhaps new and noteworthy in the US document was the admission that part of the reason that Valladares book "Against All Hope" became an instant "best-seller" around the world was that it was distributed massively by the US Information Agency. (Presumably it was their advertising and publicity campaign that reached so many gullible reporters who, almost without exception, repeated the publicist's blurb about Valladares being no more than a soft-spoken, religious clerical worker whose only crime was to speak out against communism.)
(snip/...)
http://www.canadiannetworkoncuba.ca/Documents/KWald-theatre.shtml



He's on the left side of the photo.On the other side of
the blowhard is Jorge Mas Canosa, the man who was the "godfather"
of Miami, who actually believed the U.S. would grab Cuba back and
he would be made the Cuban President. (He was present during the
Bay of Pigs, but didn't get out of his boat.Returned to Miami, from
whence he ruled like a little monster, and kept Cuban "exiles" afraid
to cross him or his Cuban American National Foundation.)
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:54 PM
Response to Reply #170
175. So one Guy discredits all experiences?
Supposing that what you said is true, one charlatan discredits all other valid claims?
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 06:21 PM
Response to Reply #175
176. I'm saying there are some very windy people, with some pent-up
right-wing idiots in Miami who are desperate for a good story to use for propaganda purposes. It apparently is too great a temptation for certain kinds of people.

Before you dispute "right-wing idiots" I should remind you of the years of loathesome internecine "exile" violence in Miami which sent TONS of former residents streaming out of town to find new homes, and earned Miami the FBI title "Terror Capitol of the United States."

Which reminds me of the immortal words of Miami Cuban "exile" tyrant, Jorge Mas Canosa:
7/1/94 7/31/94 The Miami Herald reprints an interview with Jorge Mas Canosa from the Spanish newspaper El Pais. Mas Canosa was asked by El Pais whether he believed Americans would take over Cuba if Fidel Castro fell. The Herald quoted Mas Canosa as saying, in part, "They haven't even been able to take over Miami! If we have kicked them out of here, how could they possibly take over our own country?" (MH, 7/28/94; WP, 7/28/94)
http://cuban-exile.com/doc_126-150/doc0146b.html












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FlaGranny Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:37 AM
Response to Reply #51
78. I don't believe you brought up prostitution,
Cuba, before Castro, was where the US went for its prostitutes. Prostitution, gambling, racketeering were rampant. Havana was famous for its prostitutes the world over. Every US city and many cities of the world have their prostitutes. Prostitution is a weak argument.

I'm sure Cuba has its political prisoners and treats them poorly. There is also a prison at Guantanamo where political prisoners are treated poorly. It is not run by Cuba.

I wouldn't want to live in Cuba. I prefer the amenities I have (with the exception of my access to health care). How do I feel about Castro? Well, whatever else he has done, I respect what he has been able to accomplish with so little to work with.
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:42 AM
Response to Reply #78
79. didn't like it under Batista - don't like it now
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 10:42 AM by blue2helix
I hate the situation no matter what. Just goes to show that things haven't improved much since Batista. I also want the embargo lifted, I think that capitalism and democracy is the fastest way to weaken Castro, while hostility justifies his dictatorship.

That being said, I just think Cubans deserve better than a left wing dictator with a record of human rights abuses.
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:16 AM
Response to Reply #79
96. right now the only other option is right wing fascism

That is why Cuba cannot, right now, be an open society.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:37 AM
Response to Reply #79
102. But you wouldn't mind a right wing dictator?
When was Batista in charge of Tampa?
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 12:05 PM
Response to Reply #102
110. Don't want ANY dictator
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 12:07 PM by blue2helix
What is so complicated about that?
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #37
46. Cuban trained doctors are all over Latin America providing healthcare

Much to your dismay.

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:57 AM
Response to Reply #46
49. Why Dismay?
I think that's great. Doesn't mean that Cuba is a great place to live. You are not free. It is a repressed society. You can theorize all you want, that's cute and convenient, but when you hear first hand people's experiences, it puts the "healthcare" thing into perspective.

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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:01 AM
Response to Reply #49
52. You are not free in the U.S.


Spying On Anti-War Groups
http://www.cleveland.com/newsflash/cleveland/index.ssf?...

1/24/2006, 6:53 p.m. ET

CLEVELAND (AP) ­ The American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio requested information Tuesday from the government about whether it spied on two anti-war groups and an attorney for a man suspected of terrorism connections.

ACLU officials said at news conference that members of the anti-war groups want to know whether two meetings were attended by government agents. One meeting was last year in Akron by the Northeast Ohio American Friends Service Committee, a Quaker organization, and the another was in 2004 in Cleveland by the Northeast Ohio Anti-War Coalition.

The ACLU filed Freedom of Information Act requests with the Department of Defense, Justice Department, the FBI and police seeking records that document any collection of information about the groups.

Gary Daniels, the ACLU's litigation coordinator, said the ACLU became involved because the groups were included on a Defense Department classified database of information about suspicious people and activity inside the United States as reported by NBC News...


Spying on and Jailing Anti-War Army Colonel and Daughter
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/20...

Joe Mayer attended the demonstration downtown that morning in 2002 to protest what was then a brewing conflict in Iraq. He also went to ensure that his daughter Alexis did not get arrested and potentially harm her fledgling career as a lawyer.

What transpired was what the retired Army colonel most feared: He and his daughter were among a mass of protesters arrested, handcuffed and detained for as long as 36 hours, an ordeal that included hours confined on a bus and many more hours on floor mats at the Police Academy before they were released.

"It was frightening, the police charging at you in their riot gear for no apparent reason," said Mayer, 71, recalling yesterday the clash at Pershing Park. "I'm thinking, 'What's going on?' "

Whatever bitterness he and the other demonstrators experienced Sept. 27, 2002, was at least partially salved this week when the District government acknowledged that the arrests were improper and agreed to pay $425,000 to Mayer and six others who filed suit. As part of the settlement, the District is required to adopt policies aimed at preventing police from making improper arrests at demonstrations.


ACLU Releases Government Photos (spying on vegans in Atlanta)

Web Editor: Michael King
Reported By: Jon Shirek
Web Editor: Tracey Christensen
Last Modified: 1/25/2006 9:41:15 PM

The ACLU of Georgia released copies of government files on Wednesday that illustrate the extent to which the FBI, the DeKalb County Division of Homeland Security and other government agencies have gone to compile information on Georgians suspected of being threats simply for expressing controversial opinions ...

For example, more than two dozen government surveillance photographs show 22-year-old Caitlin Childs of Atlanta, a strict vegetarian, and other vegans picketing against meat eating, in December 2003. They staged their protest outside a HoneyBaked Ham store on Buford Highway in DeKalb County.

An undercover DeKalb County Homeland Security detective was assigned to conduct surveillance of the protest and the protestors, and take the photographs. The detective arrested Childs and another protester after he saw Childs approach him and write down, on a piece of paper, the license plate number of his unmarked government car.

"They told me if I didn't give over the piece of paper I would go to jail and I refused and I went to jail, and the piece of paper was taken away from me at the jail and the officer who transferred me said that was why I was arrested," Childs said on Wednesday ...

http://www.11alive.com/news/news_article.aspx?storyid=7...



The Other Big Brother
By Michael Isikoff
Newsweek

Jan. 30, 2006 issue - The demonstration seemed harmless enough. Late on a June afternoon in 2004, a motley group of about 10 peace activists showed up outside the Houston headquarters of Halliburton, the giant military contractor once headed by Vice President Dick Cheney. They were there to protest the corporation's supposed "war profiteering." The demonstrators wore papier-mache masks and handed out free peanut-butter-and-jelly sandwiches to Halliburton employees as they left work. The idea, according to organizer Scott Parkin, was to call attention to allegations that the company was overcharging on a food contract for troops in Iraq. "It was tongue-in-street political theater," Parkin says.

But that's not how the Pentagon saw it. To U.S. Army analysts at the top-secret Counterintelligence Field Activity (CIFA), the peanut-butter protest was regarded as a potential threat to national security. Created three years ago by the Defense Department, CIFA's role is "force protection"­tracking threats and terrorist plots against military installations and personnel inside the United States.
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/10965509/site/newsweek/



Spying on Your Internet Searches
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/01/bush-domestic-spying-google-version.html

By KATIE HAFNER
Published: January 25, 2006
Kathryn Hanson, a former telecommunications engineer who lives in Oakland, Calif., was looking at BBC News online last week when she came across an item about a British politician who had resigned over a reported affair with a "rent boy."

It was the first time Ms. Hanson had seen the term, so, in search of a definition, she typed it into Google. As Ms. Hanson scrolled through the results, she saw that several of the sites were available only to people over 18. She suddenly had a frightening thought. Would Google have to inform the government that she was looking for a rent boy - a young male prostitute?

Ms. Hanson, 45, immediately told her boyfriend what she had done. "I told him I'd Googled 'rent boy,' just in case I got whisked off to some Navy prison in the dead of night," she said.

Ms. Hanson's reaction arose from last week's reports that as part of its effort to uphold an online pornography law, the Justice Department had asked a federal judge to compel Google to turn over records on millions of its users' search queries. Google is resisting the request, but three of its competitors - Yahoo, MSN and America Online - have turned over similar information.
http://americablog.blogspot.com/2006/01/bush-domestic-s...


Video of Students Protesting Domestic Spying
http://www.canofun.com/blog/videos/2006/ProtestatGeorgetownUTorturePimp.asx

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:08 AM
Response to Reply #52
59. I agree! (Civil rights are eroding)
I agree.
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #27
36. What part?
Where did you live?
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #36
47. Father from Habana
Me raised in Tampa. Have familly there and we send money and have relatives in Miami. There is a large community in Florida "surprise," and I have greeted poeople who just made it.

And before anybody starts with their "I hate Miami Cubans diatribe," let me tell you that a majority of US born Cubans disagree with the embargo. What you see on TV prostesting are the VOCAL extreme fringe group. You have over a million Cubans in Miami, so even if you see a crazy protest from 10,000 crazies (over Elian for Example), that still is less than 1% of the population.
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:59 AM
Response to Reply #47
50. Boy it sure looks terrible down there, LOL!

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #50
55. Assinine
What do those pictures show? I could get a picture like that in Iraq or Afghanistan right now. Yeah, it's great if your a tourist looking for cheap service and sex. Then you can go back to your sanitized hotel area where Cubans are not allowed.

Tell me, have you spoken to a victim of Castro's oppression? Or are you just going to post another silly picture?
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:07 AM
Response to Reply #55
58. Get back to me when you've learned how to spell

Your portrayal of Castro as the evil dictator just doesn't hold water.

Plenty of people live happily in Cuba and if it wasn't for the looming spectre of U.S. overthrow they wouldn't have to be so concerned about political overthrow.

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:10 AM
Response to Reply #58
61. Talk is cheap
Who have you spoken too? Who told you that is "great" down there. You obviously are just spewing mantras without any personal experience or evidence.
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:12 AM
Response to Reply #61
62. Yes I see you think words mean nothing and you make shit up

where did I say "great"

Go back and read what I said or just admit you are resorting to arguing against what you want me to say and not what I said.

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Scurrilous Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:32 PM
Response to Reply #47
130. "Over a million Cubans in Miami..."
http://www.beaconcouncil.com/010204.asp

<snip>

"While the HIspanic culture in Miami-Dade has traditionally moved to a Cuban beat, 2000 Census number reveal that a significant changes has occurred. While Cubans remain by far the largest group - with 650,000 in Miami-Dade alone - they are incresingly living alongside other Latin Americans."
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:45 PM
Response to Reply #130
159. Miami Dade "Alone"
That is only one county, if you include surrounding and adjacent counties you would get approx. a million. Why the hairsplitting?
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KamaAina Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #27
179. Sounds just like Abu Ghraib
Kind of makes you wonder why Bush** is so opposed to the guy...
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:35 PM
Response to Reply #20
153. you know males are very paranoid about
castroation

OUCH!
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:25 PM
Response to Reply #3
166. It's the lack of democracy I care about, not the national healthcare
I'm actually in favor of a national healthcare system for here, the U.S. I think it's great that Cubans have free healthcare. And that they are not at the mercy of the Batista-like exploitative capitalists. I believe in non-exploitative capitalism, a solid social security safety net, national healthcare, nationalized energy, fair trade not unrestricted free trade, a government that looks out for the economic interests of the majority as much as they do for the super-wealthy few.

But I can't countenance political prisoners, government-sponsored staged rallies, dictatorship-like rule -- no matter who's behind it, Castro or, increasingly our own country, with Bush's secret government. Maybe it's the Jeffersonian Democrat in me that resents ALL anti-democracies.
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JDPriestly Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
4. Don't support one dictator just because another one is worse.
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bryant69 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:25 AM
Response to Original message
5. Come to think of it , why allow anybody to post anything i disagree with
It just takes up space that could be filled by more right thinking individuals.

I mean why should we have to slog through post after post of opinions that are just plain wrong?

Incidentally, I largely agree with your analysis of Castro - but think everybody should get their say.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:26 AM
Response to Original message
6. DU is all ABOUT nuance
nevermind that Castro is a dictator. We like dictators, as long as it isn't our own!
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:43 AM
Response to Reply #6
80. You like dictators?
Surely that undermiones the "D" in DU?
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TallahasseeGrannie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:52 AM
Response to Reply #80
84. Teasing...sorry
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Taxloss Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:53 AM
Response to Reply #84
86. That's OK. I'm not averse to the occasional dictator myself.
They're always so nicely turned out.

(joking)
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cali Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:27 AM
Response to Original message
7. Maybe I'm just not paying attention
but I haven't noticed numerous posts glorifying all things Fidel. Some of your quotes are funny as hell. Maybe I should pay more attention. Anyway, it'll be interesting to see the responses to your post.
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rodeodance Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #7
23. same here. missed them--but so what? People can make up their
own minds on what to read or not read.
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:23 PM
Response to Reply #7
126. Here's a good thread
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Commie Pinko Dirtbag Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #126
156. I'm still dumbfounded about the use of the term "spam".
Methinks you called Fidel praising "spam" only because "spam" is the name of a bad thing.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:28 AM
Response to Original message
9. are those actual quotes?
you have them in quotation marks
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:37 AM
Response to Reply #9
19. hullo?
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:22 PM
Response to Reply #19
125. Uh, yeah...?
I'm sorry that I wasn't glued to DU for your convenience.

They're quotes meant to sum up real quotes like the following:

"You see, I have been to Cuba many times since the mid '70s for long durations that included the entire '97-98 election season. I've seen Cuba's democratic system evolve over that time. It is fair, open, representative..."

"Wrong. Most Cubans lived in squalor before the 1959 revolution.
Now, things are much better.
Before the 1959 revolution

# 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
# More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
# 85% had no inside running water.
...(etc.,etc.)"

"I love it when someone decides he'll give DU'ers a view of Cuba
without realizing many people in this large group have BEEN there, for Chrissakes, and can spot a lie about Cuba a mile away.
Repeating propaganda and all right-wing "news" about Cuba really only works well within the right-wing: people too lazy to start doing research for themselves."

"Not only that
they are exporting doctors, people are enjoying free education and healthcare.
Cuba is truly a lighthouse among the cruel unchecked-capitalism world."

"There are many people who have started watching the content of HRW, etc. HRW has direct ties to American governent organizations, which some of us have already realized. They will be expected to parrot American attitudes..."

...........

There's more where that came from: http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1576905
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:38 PM
Response to Reply #125
154. convenience?
that is pretty funny

make up quotes and disappear

:rofl:

yes, it is more appropriate to actually offer real quotes

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devilgrrl Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:53 AM
Response to Reply #9
44. Oh, I know!
Nothing like making shit up on the fly!

What a stupid thread this is.
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G_j Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:54 AM
Response to Reply #44
48. hit and run too
so far
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MadHound Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:29 AM
Response to Original message
10. Big board, lots of posters, many differing opinions.
And frankly, that's a good thing in my opinion. If Castro is such a horrible guy, then it shouldn't be all that difficult to rebuff these people. If he isn't, well then chalk it up to a learning experience and move on.

I'm not a big fan of Castro, but his society does indeed have some qualities that are better than in the US, namely their health care system. And quite frankly the government that he replaced, Batista backed by the US government and the Mob, was a hell of a lot worse than Castro's:shrug:

And I do find it rather amusing, that Castro has been able to thumb his nose at the US for all these years.
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H2O Man Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:30 AM
Response to Original message
12. silly n/t
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ProfessorGAC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:39 AM
Response to Reply #12
24. You Are Extremely Kind
I have otherwise held my fingers back on this thread.
The Professor
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:05 AM
Response to Reply #12
91. Exactly. nt
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Just Me Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
15. Hmmm,...no matter what form of government, the people can be exploited,...
,...or they can be assisted/served or a combination of both. The Cuban leadership does some good and some bad. The American leadership does some good and some bad.
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jobycom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:33 AM
Response to Original message
17. I'm more bothered by the Led Zeppelin spammers, myself.
Greatest band ever. Ptoohey.
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Caution Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:38 AM
Response to Original message
22. Simple. Ignorance. Willful ignorance.
Too many people buying into the "enemy of my enemy is my friend" garbage. Castro is a dictator. Is everything he does terrible? No. But the human rights abuses alone should be enough to cause people to dislike his government. But since the Republican party has owned the cuabn vote over tehir unwavering opposition to Castro, many otherwise well-intentioned Democrats seem to lose sight of this fact.
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porphyrian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:48 AM
Response to Reply #22
82. My Thoughts About That Quote
The idea of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" isn't itself garbage, it's simply misunderstood and misused by many out of context. While I'm personally unsure of its origin (Wikipedia claims it is an Arab proverb), it is a strategic concept, like those of Sun Tzu, not a literal commandment for lay people. In a battle, it is strategically advantageous to limit the number of fronts you must defend to the smallest number possible, preferably one (or none, if that's possible). It is also strategically advantageous to force your enemy to fight on as many fronts as possible, thus limiting and draining their resources. The idea that the enemy of my enemy is my friend extends from this, as by helping your enemy's enemy, you are hurting your common enemy, assuming that they are fighting as well. This does not literally mean that you make friends with them and go on vacation together once a year, simply that by combining forces against a common enemy, you can be more successful in eliminating that enemy. It also says nothing about your relationship once that enemy is defeated. Again, this is a military concept, not a rule for social behavior.
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hfojvt Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:42 PM
Response to Reply #22
158. too many people buy into the notion
that "everyone who disagrees with me" is ignorant. Knee-jerk vilification of Papa seems no more erudite than knee-jerk adoration.
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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
25. So, if I read this right, anyone who doesn't castigate Castro
is a spammer and should not be allowed to post? There are posters from other countries here as well as Americans and those countries travel freely to Cuba, trade with Cuba (as does your country when convenient)and don't see Castro as the big, bad tyrant that some do.

Disclaimer: I have never posted about Castro or Cuba because it is not a big issue but do read the threads with the anti/pro posts with interest.

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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:25 PM
Response to Reply #25
127. No, you have read this WRONG
Read it again.
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Hong Kong Cavalier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #127
144. Nevermind...
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 03:08 PM by Hong Kong Cavalier
Easier to just do this...
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brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:12 PM
Response to Reply #144
146. s/d
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 03:13 PM by brentspeak
s/d
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WinkyDink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:42 AM
Response to Original message
26. Maybe because without him, the Mafia rules?
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 09:48 AM by WinkyDink
Maybe because Fulgencio Batista was CORRUPT??
"It was in this time period that Batista formed a renowned friendship and business relationship with gangster Meyer Lansky that lasted over three decades.

Through Lansky, the mafia knew they had a friend in Cuba."
http://www.historyofcuba.com/history/batista.htm

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:45 AM
Response to Reply #26
31. justify lost rights with fear and shifting blame to someone else
again. you make op's point. you argument is the same as the right protest

they justify bush outing plame, lying about war, nsa out of fear (they are going to get us, islamic will take over) and it is clintons fault, or anyone elses, but certainly not our job to insure rights, bah hahahahah this is funny,.........we gotta protect anyway needed
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:46 AM
Response to Reply #31
32. are you denying that the U.S. wants to overthrow the Cuban govt.?


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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:49 AM
Response to Reply #32
38. deny??, bah hahahaha where in the hell in my post is there even
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 09:51 AM by seabeyond
kinda a reverence that i state the u.s. does NOT want castro overthrown. is this really gonna be such an obvious shift in argument.

i specifically layed out my words. i didnt reference u.s. part in this at all. i addressed the op. talking about castro taking rights. not a democracy.
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:04 AM
Response to Reply #38
56. If Castro let the Bay of Pigs gang in what do you think would happen?
Do you not understand the situation?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:18 AM
Response to Reply #56
67. of course i understand the situation. for you to even suggest i dont
with hte little information i have given, on my understanding, my position, my factual/historical knowledge, and where we sit today, is an absurd conclusion in your post.

where do you want to start talking about it. now this conversation will go on for days. and you too are going to have to know everyting too. so, want to start now. at the bay of pigs. and why/how it happened??????

i was talking about castro is not a democracy. do you argue that?
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:23 AM
Response to Reply #67
70. The reality is given the U.S. stance Cuba can't be open otherwise
They would be overthrown tomorrow. Sad but true.

I have never suggested Cuba is a democracy but then again neither really is the U.S.

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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #70
75. so you acknowledge it isnt democracy, but a realistic
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 10:31 AM by seabeyond
understanding of what is possible in that area. i can respect that. not going to become buddy, buddy and say you are my pal. i dont think castro is my pal. but i think he would tend more to democracy, if we treated him like a democracy and didnt continually create an environment where he felt he needed to be on guard and protecting his power, and i say, his power. i dont like what the u.s. did in haiti. i dont like what the u.s. policy is with venz...... or saudi, or pakistan or isreal.... why i want dems

but i am not going to validate castro as anything, but what he is.

so much of it for decades is just a retarded play.... theatrics. not the way i like life. and the people suffer.

geez lets just throw saddam in there. he also insisted on education, secular (through threat of death), and kept realitive factions at bay. what would happen if he didnt have such a tight control. what we have today. the fact is he also did not have free press. he had rape rooms, he murdered people. i didnt think he was nice. and i didnt agree with bush policy on iraq. another reason to be a dem

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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:14 AM
Response to Reply #75
95. Saddam and Castro don't even compare. Saddam was a CIA stooge
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:36 AM
Response to Reply #95
101. castro a russian stooge? n/t
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Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #101
104. You could really benefit by doing some basic reading.
The bonds with Russia didn't happen until after the U.S., starting with Dwight D. Eisenhower, had placed an embargo on Cuba, and acts of direct aggression, including bombings by U.S. planes, and bombings of ships in the water around Cuba, along with the beginning of an unbroken stream of active terrorism in multiple forms against Cuba and Cubans which continues until the present, including the Bay of Pigs invasion.

As Cuba discovered itself to be completely helpless against this heavy force, it accepted the protection of a larger country, as would any other country in its position.

Voluntary ignorance is a gift to propagandists, as the unmotivated simply swallow what they are told, and won't trouble themselves to start trying to find out the truth.

Don't take the word of others. You won't have to worry about being brainwashed. Just shake it off and start doing your homework.
The "spammers" can't control what you'll find, can they?
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:54 AM
Response to Reply #104
106. and the reason saddam became stooge of cia is because......
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 11:57 AM by seabeyond
please, you go to a diss about how much i know as you totally shift argument again. all i said was castro was stooge to russia. yes there was a reason why.

then you continue to call me names, and tell me how ignorant i am when we havent even discussed that to see just how ignorant i am
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:28 PM
Response to Reply #106
149. What names were you called?
Your called Castro a stooge of Russia & received an answer that explained the full story. Now you say the argument was shifted.

all i said was castro was stooge to russia. yes there was a reason why.

Why?



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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:50 AM
Response to Reply #101
105. here's a clue: the cold war is over
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:55 AM
Response to Reply #105
107. another clue, if you would read my post you will see i stand on dem
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 11:56 AM by seabeyond
platform that bush and repug approach to castro is wrong. so what kind of waste of time is this fabricated argument of yours.
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seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:43 AM
Response to Original message
28. ah socialism..... do the same thing with hte poor, the right does
with the rich........ but, we are doing with the poor. hence,.... moderate. rights matter on both sides.
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400Years Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:44 AM
Response to Original message
29. Castro has done alot for his people
Cuba would be a much more free place if it wasn't always under threat from the U.S.

Did you ever stop to think what would happen if Castro let political operatives run amok in Cuba? Cuba would look just like Haiti.

Castro bashing is just reactionary horse shit by people who can't get over the stories they were told in grade school.

Those of us who live in the real world understand the pressures that Cuba faces and they can't let the Miami Mafia foment the overthrow of their government.

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libnnc Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:48 AM
Response to Original message
34. I think irrational, unchecked fear of socialism
is directly linked to penis size.

Someone really oughta do a study on that. :popcorn:
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PhilipShore Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:50 AM
Response to Original message
40. The dislike the communism but not the communist question
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 10:04 AM by PhilipShore
Communism appeals to the poor masses... and I agree with you; as a liberal democrat, I ask similar questions when, I am confronted by a communist and/ or communism. As a liberal democrat, I respect their rights to be a communist, but I disagree with their world view called communism.

I have not been a protestor for sometime now -- but from my review of the media, some communism run groups; have become front groups for communists, that are encouraged by the GOP to be provocateurs for the purpose that is favorable to the GOP -- but not a true democracy. See the Nader presidential campaign in 2000--when GOP operatives paid for anti-Gore Nader ads in swing states -- on Election Day.

It is frustrating, because in their zeal to help, they actually stifle the true democratic process, that is part of being and American called liberalism.
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Tierra_y_Libertad Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
41. Fidel isn't perfect. Happy now?
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 09:51 AM
Response to Original message
42. What about the spammers who show up on any Cuba or Venezuela thread?
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 09:55 AM by Bridget Burke
To point out that Castro & Chavez are "thugs." Oh, they are just DU'ers expressing their opinion! (But I wish they'd find some new words--aren't there online thesauri?)

I did meet some Cuban artists a few years ago--when cultural exchange was not forbidden. They expressed criticisms of life in Cuba in their art--with some humor, in fact! Then they sold some pieces here & went back home.

Castro is not an angel but Cubans are better off, in some ways, than people in other countries. That is the truth.

You want to BAN anyone who says that Cuba has its good points? Or just have any post that is not 100% Castro hating automatically deleted? Perhaps you ought to take that up with the Mods.
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murray hill farm Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:02 AM
Response to Original message
54. Oh Pleeeeaseeeee!!!
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 10:03 AM by mexicoxpat
Isnt this just a post to get all the anti castro freaks out screaming. If any of you have ACTUALLY lived in Cuba..or even ever been there..then speak. Other than that, you have no credibility to speak, since you have all been brainwahsed since your birth on lies about what and what is not Cuba, how the actual Cubans..the ones who live there now, feel about their country, their lives and their leader.
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Thtwudbeme Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:15 AM
Response to Reply #54
65. I have been wondering how you have been since the hurricane!
I am glad to see you, even though it took a dumb Castro thread to get you out!

:hi:

Stephanie
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radwriter0555 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #54
73. I have a friend who's met with Castro numerous times. My friend isn't some
bearded, hippy dissident, but a wealthy, powerful, amazingly well connected, liberal feminist; she is a a powerhouse who is of the highest regard and reputation, and well noted in her industry, and the daughter of a very famous activist. I respect this woman, who she is, what she does and more importantly, what she does with her assets, connections and power. She is very quietly kind, generous and supportive of liberal, social and political causes.

I respected my friend long before I found out her connections to Mr. Castro, and was so very pleased to learn from her that he is an amazing, good, decent and compassionate man who wants nothing but the best for his people. I had a feeling long before that Mr. Castro was the target of political assassination -- a popular sport in this country where most people are too fukcing lazy to learn first hand or in real life about people that the opposition fears.

My friend has nothing but the best, THE best things to say about Fidel Castro, so, I'll stand alongside the people who support Castro.
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:34 AM
Response to Reply #73
77. She represents a different constituent than the little guy
Even in Cuba you have elites and "other." Look, I certainly think that Castro is better than Batista was, no doubt, but the people deserve better than a left wing dictator who has a record of human rights abuses. Just go to Amnesty International, hardly an imperial expansionist tool, and read their reports, or listen to people who have lived there as Mexicopat has suggested.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:34 PM
Response to Reply #77
150. Again with the "left wing dictator" stuff!
I've spoken to people who live in Cuba. They had some criticisms of the sytem which they expressed in their art. But they were just here for a visit--& to sell some pieces. Bush stopped that kind of cultural exchange. Gusanos only!

When were you in Cuba last?

I don't think that Castro is shining knight, but our country is a friend of leaders with far worse Amnesty International records.

This whole thread was based on a statement that DU must not allow any positive words about Cuba whatsoever. Do you agree that we must all shut up?

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:50 PM
Response to Reply #150
161. I disagree with the opening thread
The thread obviously opened up the whole issue of Cuba generally. I have spoken to people who were jailed and tortured under Castro, so obviouisly, I'm going to express my viewpoint that I don't think he is great for Cubans.

If someone wants to romantacize him as some great guy, I don't think they shouldn't be able to post, I just want to express my opinion.
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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:28 AM
Response to Reply #54
76. I remember you!
I was just getting hooked on DU and I remember your post re Katrina and then the power went out. I was fascinated by the thread. Glad to see you are OK. I was always wondering what happened.

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Spazito Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:19 AM
Response to Original message
68. Hmmm, I remembered a post about opposing opinions by
you that struck me as interesting given your OP. Here it is:

brentspeak (1000+ posts) Wed Feb-08-06 01:39 PM
Response to Reply #165
170. I know
Apparently, according to the poster you responded to, no one on an internet chat-board is "allowed" to critique Mrs.King's service. Ridiculous.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2092360#2094698

Question: How do you align this post to your OP which, imo, is calling for limitation of opinions on Castro while the above post calls such limitation "Ridiculous"?
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #68
74. Gosharoonie, he was on the Right Wing side, too....
As well as fighting for the right to post his opinion on DU. Which he now wants to deny to others.

But he many not get your message. He hasn't returned to the thread he began.
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:46 PM
Response to Reply #74
134. Deleted message
Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.
 
Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:20 PM
Response to Reply #134
148. Corrected! You were not Right Wing on THAT thread.
You were defending the rights of DU'ers to post their opinions. Huzzah!

Now, you'd prefer that any opinion that differs from yours NOT be allowed.

At least you're flexible!
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High Plains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:46 PM
Response to Reply #74
160. He usually is.
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endarkenment Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:23 AM
Response to Original message
71. Provide links to your quotes.
Your post appears to be unsubstantiated nonsense that you made up and then refused to defend. Nice job. Typically this is referred to as 'trolling'.

I'm sure the mods will get right on top of your Great DU Commie Purge. Sheesh.
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Rageneau Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:54 AM
Response to Reply #71
87. Fidel can walk freely among the masses. Can Bush?
I was very impressed that Elian's dad insisted upon taking him back to Cuba even after being offered a better deal than Satan tempted Jesus with. Obviously, many Cubans support Castro and the Revolucion. Besides, if they don't like him, it's their business to overthrow him, not ours.

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fishnfla Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:48 AM
Response to Original message
81. I love the people who fell for: "Castro will heal the blind" propaganda
I was flamed for pointing out errors of fact in that whole hug-a-puppy-dog can of bullshit, when I know much about it first hand.

Next up: Uncle Fidel parts the Florida straights,and walks on water across Biscayne Bay to smite his enemies
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:52 AM
Response to Original message
85. As usual..
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 10:56 AM by Mika
The Cubaphobic response to almost anything Cuba..

Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that




Most non Cubaphobes realize that Castro does not equal Cuba. Especially those who have actually been there & seen it and met Cubans living in Cuba.



Cubans are granted special immigration perks that are offered to no other immigrant group seeking entry into the US.

Immigrants come to the US from all over the world - from democratic countries. They come here for opportunities to earn more money than they could back at home. They come to work so that they can send a little of their earnings back to their relatives. It has little to do with "despotic' regimes, it has more to do with earning power.

Cuba is a special case though, in that it is the US's Helms-Burton law (and a myriad of other sanctions) that are intended to cripple the Cuban economy. This is the stated goal of the US government, as evidenced by the Bush* admin's latest 'crackdown' on family remittances to Cuba and increased sanctions on the island and US & foreign corporations that seek to do business with Cuba.

The USA currently offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush has announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. The US interests section in Cuba does the required criminal background check on the applicants.

The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US even those having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks)

For Cuban migrants ONLY - including the aforementioned illegal immigrants who are smuggled in as well as those who have failed a US background check for a legal visa who make it here by whatever means - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption for Cuban expats only), instant food stamps, plus more. IOW, extra special enhanced social programs designed to entice Cuban expatriation to Miami/USA.

Despite these programs designed to offer a 'carrot on a stick' to Cubans only, the Cubaphobe rhetoric loop repeats the question "why do Cubans come to the US then?".

First the US forces economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans.

But yet, more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually (until Bush's recent one visit every 3 yrs restrictions on Cuban expats living in the US).

Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba, the US Cuban Adjustment Act, and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban tourism economy (its #1 sector) would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage and quality of life in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.

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Billy Burnett Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:11 AM
Response to Reply #85
93. GREAT POST Mika! Makes just too damn much sense.
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 11:12 AM by Billy Burnett
As usual -regarding Cuba topics- you've hit the nail on the head with that post.

Your observations regarding Cuban migration are spot on. I have been to Cuba also and I know plenty of Cubans in Cuba and in Miami. I live in Miami and can confirm what you have posted regarding the perks offered to Cubans only.

Good job.

:hi:

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blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 12:13 PM
Response to Reply #85
113. I agree the embargo stinks- but Castro stinks as well
I also agree that Cubans have a strong lobby and are active democratically which has enabled them to garner rights for themselves.

Don't like the embargo and I think that free market trade and democracy would topple Castro faster than the status quo hostility which actually serves to empower his dictatorial stance.

That being said, why would my saying that Castro is a Dictator with known human rights abuses and that Cuban society is largely a repressed society make me "Cuba-phobic???"
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radio4progressives Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:57 AM
Response to Original message
89. Flamebait Alert! Agenda to Promote Lies and Distortions, Why?
Why isn't the propagandist talking about REAL issues instead of making bogus diversionary stories up?
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leftchick Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 10:59 AM
Response to Original message
90. wow! your first two sentences descibe bushamerikKa
:shrug:
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ronnie624 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:11 AM
Response to Original message
92. Proof once again
of the power of propaganda.

Any U.S. American who frequents this website should be among the most well informed of citizens. You should be immune to government and corporate propaganda memes, yet here you are regurgitating them once again.

Several posters on this board have produced myriad links to excellent information in addition to their own knowledge providing the context necessary to understanding Cuba, Castro and their relationship to the U.S.

Why do you attempt to dis inform as opposed to informing yourself?
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tatertop Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:43 PM
Response to Reply #92
133. That is a great question!
Why do they attempt to dis inform as opposed to informing themselves? There are some great posters here on the subject.
They have certainly taught me a lot.
Didn't cost me a dime.

Why continue spouting the same old, worn out government lies
when the truth is at one's fingertips?
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earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:18 AM
Response to Original message
97. Castro is doing what he has to do to protect his people from the ugly
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 11:18 AM by TheGoldenRule
greed of our so called "democracy". Read the book "Confessions of an Economic Hitman" if you want to understand the extent of the economic devastation the United States has wrought upon third world countries very much like Cuba. All done purely for the sake of the almighty dollar that solely benefits the rich elites of this country.

Why do you think Iraq and now Iran are targets? :puke:
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Mika Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:24 AM
Response to Reply #97
98. Castro doesn't do it! The Cuban people do.
Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 11:25 AM by Mika
Its a big mistake to suggest that Castro is the doer of all things good and bad in Cuba.

Its the Cuban people who are overwhelmingly united behind the Revolution and the defense of their sovereignty. Even the CIA's annual report on Cuba states just that. It was the Cuban people en mass that kicked US hegemony out of Cuba, not just Mr Castro.

It is the Cuban people who have made the gains that Cuba has made since 1959..

Before the 1959 revolution

  • 75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.
  • More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.
  • 85% had no inside running water.
  • 91% had no electricity.
  • There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.
  • More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.
  • Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.
  • The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.
  • 45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.
  • 25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.
  • 1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).
  • 27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.
  • Racial discrimination was widespread.
  • The public school system had deteriorated badly.
  • Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.
  • Police brutality and torture were common.

  • ___



    After the 1959 revolution


    “It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

    Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

    -

    It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

    By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

    Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

    Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

    “Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

    Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

    “Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

    It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

    There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

    The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

    “Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

    Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

    The question that these statistics pose, of course, is whether the Cuban experience can be replicated. The answer given here is probably not.

    “What does it, is the incredible dedication,” according to Wayne Smith, who was head of the US Interests Section in Havana in the late 1970s and early 1980s and has travelled to the island many times since.



    No one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care is forced on Cubans. Castro didn't give it to them. They worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

    Cubans wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system.

    Cubans wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it. Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

    Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.


    Cubans want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.



    Viva Cuba!


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    Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:49 AM
    Response to Reply #98
    103. Castro overthrew Batista because the Cuban people supported him.
    His tiny invasion force was almost wiped out just after landing. They only succeeded with the support of urban intellectuals & students--& the country people. After Batista's overthrow, the US didn't know what to do with the new Cuban government--so Castro took support offered by the USSR.

    We've got diplomatic relations with far worse rulers than Castro.

    The spurious quotations at the top of the thread did NOT come from DU. And the demand that (even slightly) pro-Castro posts be forbidden seems odd from someone claiming to support free expression.
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    earth mom Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 12:14 PM
    Response to Reply #98
    114. Good post.
    But I'm on your side. Maybe it should have been directed at the OP? :shrug:
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    oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 11:34 AM
    Response to Original message
    100. Because Democratic Underground
    is a Democracy?

    180
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    seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 12:07 PM
    Response to Reply #100
    111. bah hahahaahaha.... lord have mercy....listening to eric clapton
    sinner's prayer. love his music. you are funny. you made me laugh
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    oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 01:08 PM
    Response to Reply #111
    115. eric clapton?
    Who dat?

    Good you can laugh. Really.

    180
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    seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 01:56 PM
    Response to Reply #115
    117. hey, laugh or cry. who is claptin? lol lol. how old are you 15
    teasing. he is now an old man, that strums a guitar really well and does a little singing.
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    oneighty Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:02 PM
    Response to Reply #117
    120. Not 15--71
    I remember some of my young friends speaking well of eric. Truth I do not think I ever heard him though. I was sort of a Frankie Laine kinda guy. MULE TRAIN..ROSE ROSE I LOVE YOU..

    Hahahaha OH! And Al Jolson

    180
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    seabeyond Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:05 PM
    Response to Reply #120
    121. lol loll see why i can laugh. you are funny. lol
    Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 02:06 PM by seabeyond
    y are on the oter side in generation. funny. well he was smack in the middle generations. he is good, blues, just fun. of course you would like him. wish i could play you a bit. i need music for our revolution. have pulled 105 songs i play while on the board of all kinds of artists from 60's and on...i am more rock n roll. husband has lots of blues, old timer blues
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    iconoclastNYC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 12:08 PM
    Response to Original message
    112. Why is America allowed to blockade a nation for 40 years?
    In violation of UN resolutions?

    Uh oh I guess I'm a Castro apologist now.

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    brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 01:14 PM
    Response to Reply #112
    116. No
    I wouldn't say you're a Castro apologist -- but I would say you didn't bother to read my disclaimer at the bottom.
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    Junkdrawer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 01:58 PM
    Response to Original message
    118. Running short of credible wedge issues, are we...
    Bottom . Of . The . Barrel
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    Yollam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:18 PM
    Response to Original message
    123. Since when do Fidelistas "spam" DU?
    I've seen very little pro-Castro stuff here, certainly not "spam".

    Castro is certainly a dictator with an iron grip on power, but the situation in Cuba is not as simple as you portray it to be. Castro HAS made his country's literacy rate the HIGHEST in the hemisphere. Cuba does provide health coverage to all, and there is no homelessness, etc.

    As for freedom of expression, there is some, but to oppose the party is pretty much a good way to destroy any career prospects you might have had. But there are dissidents IN CUBA, using e-mail etc. to criticize the regime. Apparently there is a line that some cross where they end up imprisoned. I'm not familiar enough with their system to say.

    But I worked for 4 years in an office of mostly Cuban emigres. Most of them were rabid anti-Casto, right-wingers, a few were anti-Castro moderates or dems, and one was a very pro-Castro communist. They often had very vocal arguments with the commie, ganging up on him and shouting him down. I listened to both sides of their stories (on way too many occasions), and my sense of the situation is that there are some excessive curbs on personal freedom, but no worse than in a lot of the regimes the US is allied with (try Indonesia, for example). It seems like their main gripe with Castro was the lack of consumer goods and opportunities, and his redistributionist policies dating back to the revolution. One of the guys where I worked had been imprisoned for several years. But then again, he and others had fomented mutiny on the ship he worked on...

    I guess my point is this - Castro's not a great guy, but he's hardly the world's worst despot by any stretch. His military adventures have been a drop in the bucket compared to US aggression in the postwar years. He has made some progressive achievements, and if there are DU posters who think those achievements outweigh his misdeeds, then I think they should be able to say so.


    On the contrary, I wonder what a person like you, who supposedly is on the side of "freedom" is doing calling for the expulsion of people who praise Castro. You are free to rebut them, you know.

    And this stuff about "spam" is BS and you know it.
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    brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:31 PM
    Response to Reply #123
    129. It is?
    "BS", huh?

    Take a look at just a couple of threads (one out of many), and tell me there aren't people spamming links and cut-and-pasted propaganda like they were Fidel's personal PR squad:

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1576905

    http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2065962
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    Yollam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:43 PM
    Response to Reply #129
    132. First of all, neither of those links are exactly Granma.
    In fact, one of the stories was ANTI-Castro (even though the poster was defending him)

    Those are both links to mainstream US news sources, not propaganda outfits, and those were both posted by one person. To me "Spamming" would be doing post after post after post, using up a bunch of bandwidth with your own pet causes and obnoxious links. You're free to disagree with Mika, or any other pro-Castro poster (and on many points, I may agree with you), but I don't buy your case for spamming. You seem to think a couple posts that run against your worldview are "spam".

    Seriously, I see twenty times more posts about Chavez here than I do about Castro, and even he's not exactly the hottest topic on most days...
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    brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:53 PM
    Original message
    The links and spam are within the threads
    I should have made that more clear.
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    Yollam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:57 PM
    Response to Original message
    142. I see.
    Well, if you really think these people are clogging up the place with spam, then I guess it's incumbent on you to report them to the mods, but it seems like if they are just posting links to defend their position within the context of a thread, I don't see what's the big deal.

    And that includes links to Granma, but I would be wary of clicking on such links because a.) Granma's reporting is totally kool-ade propaganda and b.) Homeland security would probably be inclined to keep close tabs on people visiting those sites.
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    Yollam Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:48 PM
    Response to Reply #123
    136. By the way, those Cuban co-workers are OBSESSED with Fidel.
    I swear they talk about him more than we talk about Bush. I swear, every time the old fart stumbles off a stage or has shortness of breath, they're all over the internet, breathlessly speculating whether or not he's finally going to kick it.

    So weird that they've moved up here, many have become successful, but still their whole lives seem to revolve around this old man 90 miles to the south.
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    Lydia Leftcoast Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:19 PM
    Response to Original message
    124. I can think of maybe three posters who consistently post
    pro-Cuban articles, and they post about other things as well.

    Not worth getting your pants in a bunch over.

    Some people in my church have been to Cuba twice on exchange visits. They say that there are good things and bad things about Cuba. We're trying to get the Episcopal bishop from Cuba to come and visit. Cuba is willing to let him out of the country, but the U.S. is not willing to let him in.

    Who's acting oppressive in that case? Do they think this bishop is going to bomb Minneapolis? Or are they uneasy about Minneapolis residents learning that a church official is free to leave and come back?
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    Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:34 PM
    Response to Original message
    131. Are there people posting thread topics praising Castro? Where?
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    brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:50 PM
    Response to Reply #131
    137. Some here
    Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 02:52 PM by brentspeak
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    Mayberry Machiavelli Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:48 PM
    Response to Reply #137
    151. So those are posted by 2 people, and half are "MSM" news... did you alert
    on those posters, if you felt they are "pro Castro trolls"?
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    killbotfactory Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:48 PM
    Response to Original message
    135. We've had a 40 year embargo, supported terrorist actions against Cuba
    Tried to assassinate him numerous times, and supported people who invaded the island.

    You think we might have been fed some bullshit along the way in regards to how bad Castro is?
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    brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:06 PM
    Response to Reply #135
    143. s/d
    Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 03:07 PM by brentspeak
    del
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    brentspeak Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:07 PM
    Response to Reply #135
    145. I know all about how the CIA tried to poison Castro
    Tried to give him stuff to make his beard fall out, etc. American foreign policy towards Cuba has been horrendous -- we punish Cubans because of Castro, which is unfair, not to say inhumane.

    Despite the phony propaganda from the OTHER side (the Miami Cuban exile community), I do know that Cuba ain't a democracy. Amnesty Intl and Human Rights Watch are not exactly pro-Bush, Republican organizations.
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    K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:51 PM
    Response to Reply #145
    162. The US isnt a democracy either.
    The US is a deeply flawed republic with large non-democratic organizations who hold tremendous influence over the government and a system of representation which functions to enforce entrenched elitist parties.
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    stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:52 PM
    Response to Original message
    138. Same Guy Who Asked Me If I Was a Troll... lol
    BTW - haven't seen any pro-Castro threads... what's your prob?
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    coalition_unwilling Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:53 PM
    Response to Original message
    139. Castro offered to send 1,200 doctors with huricane disaster kits
    after Katrina, an offer summarily refused by *. How many New Orleanians subsequently died because of our pride and arrogance?

    Have you bothered to actually check the statistics on basic measures of social welfore pre- vs. pro-Castro, e.g., literacy, infant mortality?
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    0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 02:54 PM
    Response to Original message
    140. Tell me brentspeak...you honestly think Castro is a bad man?
    Read this speech by Castro with an open mind. I think you'll change yor're mind.

    Distinguished guests;
    Dear fellow Cubans:

    Our heroic people have struggled for 44 years from this small Caribbean island just a few miles away from the most formidable imperial power ever known by mankind. In so doing, they have written an unprecedented chapter in history. Never has the world witnessed such an unequal fight.

    Some may have believed that the rise of the empire to the status of the sole superpower, with a military and technological might with no balancing pole anywhere in the world, would frighten or dishearten the Cuban people. Yet, today they have no choice but to watch in amazement the enhanced courage of this valiant people. On a day like today, this glorious international workers' day, which commemorates the death of the five martyrs of Chicago, I declare, on behalf of the one million Cubans gathered here, that we will face up to any threats, we will not yield to any pressures, and that we are prepared to defend our homeland and our Revolution with ideas and with weapons to our last drop of blood.

    What is Cuba's sin? What honest person has any reason to attack her?

    With their own blood and the weapons seized from the enemy, the Cuban people overthrew a cruel tyranny with 80,000 men under arms, imposed by the U.S. government.

    Cuba was the first territory free from imperialist domination in Latin America and the Caribbean, and the only country in the hemisphere, throughout post-colonial history, where the torturers, murderers and war criminals that took the lives of tens of thousands of people were exemplarily punished.

    All of the country's land was recovered and turned over to the peasants and agricultural workers. The natural resources, idustries and basic services were placed in the hands of their only true owner: the Cuban nation.

    In less than 72 hours, fighting ceaselessly, day and night, Cuba crushed the Bay of Pigs mercenary invasion organized by a U.S. administration, thereby preventing a direct military intervention by this country and a war of incalculable consequences. The Revolution already had the Rebel Army, over 400,000 weapons and hundreds of thousands of militia members.

    In 1962, Cuba confronted with honor, and without a single concession, the risk of being attacked with dozens of nuclear weapons.

    It defeated the dirty war that spread throughout the entire country, at a cost in human lives even greater than that of the war of liberation.

    It stoically endured thousands of acts of sabotage and terrorist attacks organized by the U.S. government.

    It thwarted hundreds of assassination plots against the leaders of the Revolution.

    While under a rigorous blockade and economic warfare that have lasted for almost half a century, Cuba was able to eradicate in just one year the illiteracy that has still not been overcome in the course of more than four decades by the rest of the countries of Latin America, or the United States itself.

    It has brought free education to 100% of the country's children.

    It has the highest school retention rate—over 99% between kindergarten and ninth grade—of all of the nations in the hemisphere.

    Its elementary school students rank first worldwide in the knowledge of their mother language and mathematics.

    The country also ranks first worldwide with the highest number of teachers per capita and the lowest number of students per classroom.

    All children with physical or mental challenges are enrolled in special schools.

    Computer education and the use of audiovisual methods now extend to all of the country's children, adolescents and youth, in both the cities and the countryside.

    For the first time in the world, all young people between the ages of 17 and 30, who were previously neither in school nor employed, have been given the opportunity to resume their studies while receiving an allowance.

    All citizens have the possibility of undertaking studies that will take them from kindergarten to a doctoral degree without spending a penny.

    Today, the country has 30 university graduates, intellectuals and professional artists for every one there was before the Revolution.

    The average Cuban citizen today has at the very least a ninth-grade level of education.

    Not even functional illiteracy exists in Cuba.

    There are schools for the training of artists and art instructors throughout all of the country's provinces, where over 20,000young people are currently studying and developing their talent and vocation. Tens of thousands more are doing the same at vocational schools, and many of these then go on to undertake professional studies.

    University campuses are progressively spreading to all of the country's municipalities. Never in any other part of the world has such a colossal educational and cultural revolution taken place as this that will turn Cuba, by far, into the country with the highest degree of knowledge and culture in the world, faithful to Martí's profound conviction that “no freedom is possible without culture.”

    Infant mortality has been reduced from 60 per 1000 live births to a rate that fluctuates between 6 and 6.5, which is the lowest in the hemisphere, from the United States to Patagonia.

    Life expectancy has increased by 15 years.

    Infectious and contagious diseases like polio, malaria, neonatal tetanus, diphtheria, measles, rubella, mumps, whooping cough and dengue have been eradicated; others like tetanus, meningococcal meningitis, hepatitis B, leprosy, hemophilus meningitis and tuberculosis are fully controlled.

    Today, in our country, people die of the same causes as in the most highly developed countries: cardiovascular diseases, cancer, accidents, and others, but with a much lower incidence.

    A profound revolution is underway to bring medical services closer to the population, in order to facilitate access to health care centers, save lives and alleviate suffering.

    In-depth research is being carried out to break the chain, mitigate or reduce to a minimum the problems that result from genetic, prenatal or childbirth-related causes.

    Cuba is today the country with the highest number of doctors per capita in the world, with almost twice as many as those that follow closer.

    Our scientific centers are working relentlessly to find preventive or therapeutic solutions for the most serious diseases.

    Cubans will have the best healthcare system in the world, and will continue to receive all services absolutely free of charge.

    Social security covers 100% of the country's citizens.

    In Cuba, 85% of the people own their homes and they pay no property taxes on them whatsoever. The remaining 15% pay a wholly symbolic rent, which is only 10% of their salary.

    Illegal drug use involves a negligible percentage of the population, and is being resolutely combated.

    Lottery and other forms of gambling have been banned since the first years of the Revolution to ensure that no one pins their hopes of progress on luck.

    There is no commercial advertising on Cuban television and radio or in our printed publications. Instead, these feature public service announcements concerning health, education, culture, physical education, sports, recreation, environmental protection, and the fight against drugs, accidents and other social problems. Our media educate, they do not poison or alienate. They do not worship or exalt the values of decadent consumer societies.

    There is no cult of personality around any living revolutionary, in the form of statues, official photographs, or the names of streets or institutions. The leaders of this country are human beings, not gods.

    In our country there are no paramilitary forces or death squads, nor has violence ever been used against the people; there are no extrajudicial executions or torture. The people have always massively supported the activities of the Revolution. This rally today is proof of that.

    Light years separate our society from what has prevailed until today in the rest of the world. We cultivate brotherhood and solidarity among individuals and peoples both in the country and abroad.

    The new generations and the entire people are being educated about the need to protect the environment. The media are used to build environmental awareness.

    Our country steadfastly defends its cultural identity, assimilating the best of other cultures while resolutely combating everything that distorts, alienates and degrades.

    The development of wholesome, non-professional sports has raised our people to the highest ranks worldwide in medals and honors.

    Scientific research, at the service of our people and all humanity, has increased several-hundredfold. As a result of these efforts, important medications are saving lives in Cuba and other countries.

    Cuba has never undertaken research or development of a single biological weapon, because this would be in total contradiction with the principles and philosophy underlying the education of our scientific personnel, past and present.

    In no other people has the spirit of international solidarity become so deeply rooted.

    Our country supported the Algerian patriots in their struggle against French colonialism, at the cost of damaging political and economic relations with such an important European country as France.

    We sent weapons and troops to defend Algeria from Moroccan expansionism, when the king of this country sought to take control of the iron mines of Gara Djebilet, near the city of Tindouf, in southwest Algeria.

    At the request of the Arab nation of Syria, a full tank brigade stood guard between 1973 and 1975 alongside the Golan Heights, when this territory was unjustly seized from that country.

    The leader of the Republic of Congo when it first achieved independence, Patrice Lumumba, who was harassed from abroad, received our political support. When he was assassinated by the colonial powers in January of 1961, we lent assistance to his followers.

    Four years later, in 1965, Cuban blood was shed in the western region of Lake Tanganyika, where Che Guevara and more than 100 Cuban instructors supported the Congolese rebels who were fighting against white mercenaries in the service of the man supported by the West, that is, Mobutu whose 40 billion dollars, the same that he stole, nobody knows what European banks they are kept in, or in whose power.

    The blood of Cuban instructors was shed while training and supporting the combatants of the African Party for the Independence of Guinea and Cape Verde, who fought under the command of Amilcar Cabral for the liberation of these former Portuguese colonies.

    The same was true during the ten years that Cuba supported Agostinho Neto's MPLA in the struggle for the independence of Angola. After independence was achieved, and over the course of 15 years, hundreds of thousands of Cuban volunteers participated in defending Angola from the attacks of racist South African troops that in complicity with the United States, and using dirty war tactics, planted millions of mines, wiped out entire villages, and murdered more than half a million Angolan men, women and children.

    In Cuito Cuanavale and on the Namibian border, to the southwest of Angola, Angolan and Namibian forces together with 40,000 Cuban troops dealt the final blow to the South African troops. This resulted in the immediate liberation of Namibia and speeded up the end of apartheid by perhaps 20 to 25 years. At the time, the South Africans had seven nuclear warheads that Israel had supplied to them or helped them to produce, with the full knowledge and complicity of the U.S. government.

    Throughout the course of almost 15 years, Cuba had a place of honor in its solidarity with the heroic people of Viet Nam, caught up in a barbaric and brutal war with the United States. That war killed four million Vietnamese, in addition to all those left wounded and mutilated, not to mention the fact that the country was inundated with chemical compounds that continue to cause incalculable damage. The pretext: Viet Nam, a poor and underdeveloped country located 20,000 kilometers away, constituted a threat to the national security of the United States.

    Cuban blood was shed together with that of citizens of numerous Latin American countries, and together with the Cuban and Latin American blood of Che Guevara, murdered on instructions from U.S. agents in Bolivia, when he was wounded and being held prisoner after his weapon had been rendered useless by a shot received in battle.

    The blood of Cuban construction workers, that were nearing completion of an international airport vital for the economy of a tiny island fully dependent on tourism, was shed fighting in defense of Grenada, invaded by the United States under cynical pretexts.

    Cuban blood was shed in Nicaragua, when instructors from our Armed Forces were training the brave Nicaraguan soldiers confronting the dirty war organized and armed by the United States against the Sandinista revolution.

    And there are even more examples.

    Over 2000 heroic Cuban internationalist combatants gave their lives fulfilling the sacred duty of supporting the liberation struggles for the independence of other sister nations. However, there is not one single Cuban property in any of those countries. No other country in our era has exhibited such sincere and selfless solidarity.

    Cuba has always preached by example. It has never given in. It has never sold out the cause of another people. It has never made concessions. It has never betrayed its principles. There must be some reason why, just 48 hours ago, it was reelected by acclamation in the United Nations Economic and Social Council to another three years in the Commission on Human Rights, of which it has now been a member for 15 straight years.

    More than half a million Cubans have carried out internationalist missions as combatants, as teachers, as technicians or as doctors and health care workers. Tens of thousands of the latter have provided their services and saved millions of lives over the course of more than 40 years. There are currently 3000 specialists in Comprehensive General Medicine and other healthcare personnel working in the most isolated regions of 18 Third World countries. Through preventive and therapeutic methods they save hundreds of thousands of lives every year, and maintain or restore the health of millions of people, without charging a penny for their services.

    Without the Cuban doctors offered to the United Nations in the event that the necessary funds are obtained -without which entire nations and even whole regions of sub-Saharan Africa face the risk of perishing- the crucial programs urgently needed to fight AIDS would be impossible to carry out.

    The developed capitalist world has created abundant financial capital, but it has not in any way created the human capital that the Third World desperately needs.

    Cuba has developed techniques to teach reading and writing by radio, with accompanying texts now available in five languages-Haitian Creole, Portuguese, French, English and Spanish- that are already being used in numerous countries. It is nearing completion of a similar program in Spanish, of exceptionally high quality, to teach literacy by television. These are programs that were developed in Cuba and are genuinely Cuban. We are not interested in patents and exclusive copyrights. We are willing to offer them to all of the countries of the Third World, where most of the world's illiterates are concentrated, without charging a penny. In five years, the 800 million illiterate people in the world could be reduced by 80%, at a minimal cost.

    After the demise of the USSR and the socialist bloc, nobody would have bet a dime on the survival of the Cuban Revolution. The United States tightened the blockade. The Torricelli and Helms-Burton Acts were adopted, the latter extraterritorial in nature. We abruptly lost our main markets and supplies sources. The population's average calorie and protein consumption was reduced by almost half. But our country withstood the pressures and even advanced considerably in the social field.

    Today, it has largely recovered with regard to nutritional requirements and is rapidly progressing in other fields. Even in these conditions, the work undertaken and the consciousness built throughout the years succeeded in working miracles. Why have we endured? Because the Revolution has always had, as it still does and always will to an ever-greater degree, the support of the people, an intelligent people, increasingly united, educated and combative.

    Cuba was the first country to extend its solidarity to the people of the United States on September 11, 2001. It was also the first to warn of the neo-fascist nature of the policy that the extreme right in the United States, which fraudulently came to power in November of 2000, was planning to impose on the rest of the world. This policy did not emerge as a response to the atrocious terrorist attack perpetrated against the people of the United States by members of a fanatical organization that had served other U.S. administrations in the past. It was coldly and carefully conceived and developed, which explains the country's military build-up and enormous spending on weapons at a time when the Cold War was already over, and long before September 11, 2001. The fateful events of that day served as an ideal pretext for the implementation of such policy.

    On September 20 of that year, President Bush openly expressed this before a Congress shaken by the tragic events of nine days earlier. Using bizarre terminology, he spoke of "infinite justice" as the goal of a war that would apparently be infinite as well.

    "Americans should not expect one battle, but a lengthy campaign, unlike any other we have ever seen."

    "We will use every necessary weapon of war."

    "Every nation, in every region, now has a decision to make. Either you are with us, or you are with the terrorists."

    "I've called the Armed Forces to alert, and there is a reason. The hour is coming when America will act."

    "This is civilization's fight."

    "...the great achievement of our time, and the great hope of every time --now depends on us."

    "The course of this conflict is not known, yet its outcome is certain ... and we know that God is not neutral."

    Did a statesman or an unbridled fanatic speak these words?

    Two days later, on September 22, Cuba denounced this speech as the blueprint for the idea of a global military dictatorship imposed through brute force, without international laws or institutions of any kind.

    "The United Nations Organization, simply ignored in the present crisis, would fail to have any authority or prerogative whatsoever. There would be only one boss, only one judge, and only one law."

    Several months later, on the 200th anniversary of West Point Military Academy, at the graduation exercise for 958 cadets on June 3, 2002, President Bush further elaborated on this line of thinking in a fiery harangue to the young soldiers graduating that day, in which he put forward his fundamental fixed ideas:

    "Our security will require transforming the military you will lead — a military that must be ready to strike at a moment's notice in any dark corner of the world. And our security will require all Americans to be forward-looking and resolute, to be ready for preemptive action when necessary to defend our liberty and to defend our lives."

    "We must uncover terror cells in 60 or more countries..."

    "...we will send you, our soldiers, where you're needed."

    "We will not leave the safety of America and the peace of the planet at the mercy of a few mad terrorists and tyrants. We will lift this dark threat from our country and from the world."

    "Some worry that it is somehow undiplomatic or impolite to speak the language of right and wrong. I disagree. ... We are in a conflict between good and evil, and America will call evil by its name. By confronting evil and lawless regimes, we do not create a problem, we reveal a problem. And we will lead the world in opposing it."

    In the speech I delivered at a rally held in General Antonio Maceo Square in Santiago de Cuba, on June 8, 2002, before half a million people of Santiago, I said:

    "As you can see, he doesn't mention once in his speech (at West Point) the United Nations Organization. Nor is there a phrase about every people's right to safety and peace, or about the need for a world ruled by principles and norms."

    "Hardly two thirds of a century has passed since humanity went through the bitter experience of Nazism. Fear was Hitler's inseparable ally against his adversaries... Later, his fearful military force the outbreak of a war that would inflame the whole world. The lack of vision and the cowardice of the statesmen in the strongest European powers of the time opened the way to a great tragedy.

    "I don't think that a fascist regime can be established in the United States. Serious mistakes have been made and injustices committed in the framework of its political system --many of them still persist-- but the American people still have a number of institutions and traditions, as well as educational, cultural and ethical values that would hardly allow that to happen. The risk exists in the international arena. The power and prerogatives of that country's president are so extensive, and the economic, technological and military power network in that nation is so pervasive that due to circumstances that fully escape the will of the American people, the world is coming under the rule of Nazi concepts and methods."

    "The miserable insects that live in 60 or more countries of the world chosen by him and his closest assistants --and in the case of Cuba by his Miami friends-- are completely irrelevant. They are the 'dark corners of the world' that may become the targets of their unannounced and 'preemptive' attacks. Not only is Cuba one of those countries, but it has also been included among those that sponsor terror."

    I mentioned the idea of a world tyranny for the first time exactly one year, three months and 19 days before the attack on Iraq.

    In the days prior to the beginning of the war, President Bush repeated once again that the United States would use, if necessary, any means within its arsenal, in other words, nuclear weapons, chemical weapons and biological weapons.

    The attack on and occupation of Afghanistan had already taken place.

    Today the so-called "dissidents", actually mercenaries on the payroll of the Bush's Hitler-like government, are betraying not only their homeland, but all of humanity as well.

    In the face of the sinister plans against our country on the part of the neo-fascist extreme right and its allies in the Miami terrorist mob that ensured its victory through electoral fraud, I wonder how many of those individuals with supposedly leftist and humanistic stances who have attacked our people over the legal measures we were forced to adopt as a legitimate defense against the aggressive plans of the superpower, located just a few miles off our coasts and with a military base on our own territory, have been able to read these words. We wonder how many have recognized, denounced and condemned the policy announced in the speeches by Mr. Bush that I have quoted, which reveal a sinister Nazi-fascist international policy on the part of the leader of the country with the most powerful military force ever imagined, whose weapons could destroy the defenseless humanity ten times-over.

    The entire world has been mobilized by the terrifying images of cities destroyed and burned by brutal bombing, images of maimed children and the shattered corpses of innocent people.

    Leaving aside the blatantly opportunistic, demagogic and petty political groups we know all too well, I am now going to refer fundamentally to those who were friends of Cuba and respected fighters in the struggle. We would not want those who have, in our opinion, attacked Cuba unjustly, due to disinformation or a lack of careful and profound analysis, to have to suffer the infinite sorrow they will feel if one day our cities are destroyed and our children and mothers, women and men, young and old, are torn apart by the bombs of Nazi-fascism, and they realize that their declarations were shamelessly manipulated by the aggressors to justify a military attack on Cuba.

    Solely the numbers of children murdered and mutilated cannot be the measure of the human damage but also the millions of children and mothers, women and men, young and old, who remain traumatized for the rest of their lives.

    We fully respect the opinions of those who oppose capital punishment for religious, philosophical and humanitarian reasons. We Cuban revolutionaries also abhor capital punishment, for much more profound reasons than those addressed by the social sciences with regard to crime, currently under study in our country. The day will come when we can accede to the wishes for the abolition of such penalty so nobly expressed here by Reverend Lucius Walker in his brilliant speech. The special concern over this issue is easily understood when you know that the majority of the people executed in the United States are African American and Hispanic, and not infrequently they are innocent, especially in Texas, the champion of death sentences, where President Bush was formerly the governor, and not a single life has ever been pardoned.

    The Cuban Revolution was placed in the dilemma of either protecting the lives of millions of Cubans by using the legally established death penalty to punish the three main hijackers of a passenger ferry or sitting back and doing nothing. The U.S. government, which incites common criminals to assault boats or airplanes with passengers on board, encourages these people gravely endangering the lives of innocents and creating the ideal conditions for an attack on Cuba. A wave of hijackings had been unleashed and was already in full development; it had to be stopped.

    We cannot ever hesitate when it is a question of protecting the lives of the sons and daughters of a people determined to fight until the end, arresting the mercenaries who serve the aggressors and applying the most severe sanctions against terrorists who hijack passenger boats or planes or commit similarly serious acts, who will be punished by the courts in accordance with the laws in force.

    Not even Jesus Christ, who drove the traders out of the temple with a whip, would fail to opt for the defense of the people.

    I feel sincere and profound respect for His Holiness Pope John Paul II. I understand and admire his noble struggle for life and peace. Nobody opposed the war in Iraq as much and as tenaciously as he did. I am absolutely certain that he would have never counseled the Shiites and Sunni Muslims to let them be killed without defending themselves. He would not counsel the Cubans to do such a thing, either. He knows perfectly well that this is not a problem between Cubans. This is a problem between the people of Cuba and the government of the United States.

    The policy of the U.S. government is so brazenly provocative that on April 25, Mr. Kevin Whitaker, chief of the Cuban Bureau at the State Department, informed the head of our Interests Section in Washington that the National Security Council's Department of Homeland Security considered the continued hijackings from Cuba a serious threat to the national security of the United States, and requested that the Cuban government adopt all of the necessary measures to prevent such acts.

    He said this as if they were not the ones who provoke and encourage these hijackings, and as if we were not the ones who adopt drastic measures to prevent them, in order to protect the lives and safety of passengers, and being fully aware for some time now of the criminal plans of the fascist extreme right against Cuba. When news of this contact on the 25 was leaked, it stirred up the Miami terrorist mob. They still do not understand that their direct or indirect threats against Cuba do not frighten anyone in this country.

    The hypocrisy of Western politicians and a large group of mediocre leaders is so huge that it would not fit in the Atlantic Ocean. Any measure that Cuba adopts for the purposes of its legitimate defense is reported among the top stories in almost all of the media. On the other hand, when we pointed out that during the term in office of a Spanish head of government, dozens of ETA members were executed without trial, without anyone protesting or denouncing it before the United Nations Commission on Human Rights, or that another Spanish head of government, at a difficult moment in the war in Kosovo, advised the U.S. president to step up the war, increase the bombing and attack civilian targets, thus causing the deaths of hundreds of innocent people and tremendous suffering for millions of people, the headlines merely stated, "Castro attacks Felipe and Aznar". Not a word was said about the real content.

    In Miami and Washington they are now discussing where, how and when Cuba will be attacked or the problem of the Revolution will be solved.

    For the moment, there is talk of economic measures that will further intensify the brutal blockade, but they still do not know which to choose, who they will resign themselves to alienating, and how effective these measures may be. There are very few left for them to choose from. They have already used up almost all of them.

    A shameless scoundrel with the poorly chosen first name Lincoln, and the last name Dfaz-Balart, an intimate friend and advisor of President Bush, has made this enigmatic statement to a Miami TV station: "I can't go into details, but we're trying to break this vicious cycle."

    What methods are they considering to deal with this vicious cycle? Physically eliminating me with the sophisticated modern means they have developed, as Mr. Bush promised them in Texas before the elections? Or attacking Cuba the way they attacked Iraq?

    If it were the former, it does not worry me in the least. The ideas for which I have fought all my life will not die, and they will live on for a long time.

    If the solution were to attack Cuba like Iraq, I would suffer greatly because of the cost in lives and the enormous destruction it would bring on Cuba. But, it might turn out to be the last of this Administration's fascist attacks, because the struggle would last a very long time.

    The aggressors would not merely be facing an army, but rather thousands of armies that would constantly reproduce themselves and make the enemy pay such a high cost in casualties that it would far exceed the cost in lives of its sons and daughters that the American people would be willing to pay for the adventures and ideas of President Bush. Today, he enjoys majority support, but it is dropping, and tomorrow it could be reduced to zero.

    The American people, the millions of highly cultivated individuals who reason and think, their basic ethical principles, the tens of millions of computers with which to communicate, hundreds of times more than at the end of the Viet Nam war, will show that you cannot fool all of the people, and perhaps not even part of the people, all of the time. One day they will put a straightjacket on those who need it before they manage to annihilate life on the planet.

    On behalf of the one million people gathered here this May Day, I want to convey a message to the world and the American people:

    We do not want the blood of Cubans and Americans to be shed in a war. We do not want a countless number of lives of people who could be friends to be lost in an armed conflict. But never has a people had such sacred things to defend, or such profound convictions to fight for, to such a degree that they would rather be obliterated from the face of the Earth than abandon the noble and generous work for which so many generations of Cubans have paid the high cost of the lives of many of their finest sons and daughters.

    We are sustained by the deepest conviction that ideas are worth more than weapons, no matter how sophisticated and powerful those weapons may be.

    Let us say like Che Guevara when he bid us farewell:

    Ever onward to victory!
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    KFC Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 03:18 PM
    Response to Reply #140
    147. He forgot tomention that they wipe their asses with their hands
    Clap, clap! Thank you Fidel!
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 04:30 PM
    Response to Reply #140
    152. Great speech! Thanks. n/t
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    blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:06 PM
    Response to Reply #140
    165. Here is the other side of the story
    Before you get all teary eyed, here is a link to Amnesty Internationa Re: Cuba

    http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-cub/index
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    Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:32 PM
    Response to Reply #165
    168. Cuba has 5 pages at AI---the USA has 40
    Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 05:35 PM by Bridget Burke
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    blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:44 PM
    Response to Reply #168
    172. CUBA is now COOL cause US has many reports re Death Penalty & WOT abuses?
    Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 05:55 PM by blue2helix
    For the U.S., lot's of reports are related to War on Terror justifications and Death Penalty Watches, and I'm not happy about it.

    What does that have to do with Cuba????

    Also, Cuba is a closed society that controls it's information, if you are not a high profile person, it would be hard to imagine news getting out about your ill treatment. I have spoken to two people who were beaten and imprisoned in Castro's jails - one for trying to escape, and the other for his political beliefs. They were horror stories of living on excrement filled jail floors and regular beatings.


    Here is a Human rights watch article detailing how Human rights activists were beaten and imprisoned for their beliefs.
    http://hrw.org/english/docs/2002/04/25/cuba3880.htm
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    0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 06:37 PM
    Response to Reply #165
    177. There's more holes than swiss cheese in "Ammesty Internation"
    If you wanna believe that rot so be it!

    Here some food for thought.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,851913,00.html
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    Judi Lynn Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 06:47 PM
    Response to Reply #177
    178. Stupendous. I've never seen this.
    I regret I can read it now, will read it late tonight, as I've gotta run.

    It looks just WONDERFUL. So glad someone tackled that subject. Thanks for posting this!
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    blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:04 PM
    Response to Original message
    164. AMNESTY INTERNATIONAL REPORTS RE CUBA
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    blue2helix Donating Member (280 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:27 PM
    Response to Reply #164
    167. Human Rights Watch Report Re: Cuba
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    Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:36 PM
    Response to Reply #167
    169. We win again! USA! USA!
    Human Rights Watch has a 5 page report on Cuba:

    http://hrw.org/doc?t=americas&c=cuba

    But the USA has 60 pages!

    http://hrw.org/doc/?t=usa


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    K-W Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:42 PM
    Response to Original message
    171. Q: Why are Mccarthyists allowed on DU? A: Free speach. EOM
    Edited on Thu Feb-09-06 05:44 PM by K-W
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    the other one Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 05:50 PM
    Response to Original message
    174. Stupid Rant.
    That doesn't mean the author is stupid. Of course, it doesn't mean he is smart either.

    Oh please trash me for name calling. Or not. Because I don't fucking care!

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    NuttyFluffers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 07:14 PM
    Response to Original message
    180. another call to purge and shore up the base using the word "Democracy"...
    all in all we aren't that different from what we despise, now are we?
    :eyes:

    well, this was a pointless thread.
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    Moderator DU Moderator Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Feb-09-06 07:24 PM
    Response to Original message
    181. Locking....
    This conversation has run its course.
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