Alot of folks aren't paying attention and are getting neo-conned again

[Clara T]

Beware the art of provocation.

Flemming Rose the cultural editor of Jyllands-Posten is an admirer of Daniel Pipes, the Neo-Con ideologue who says the only path to Middle East peace will come through a total Israeli military victory.

The inflammatory anti-Muslim cartoons were a deliberate provocation designed to outrage and incite Muslims and thus engender support in Europe and America for the manufactured “clash of civilizations”. This is standard practice.

These patterns keep repeating but to an ill-informed nation with a short attention span and little knowledge of history that is asleep at the wheel of consumption these obvious connections will go unnoticed.

[Bjornsdotter]

1. Proof please

I don't think this was a manufactured situation.

Cheers

[Lars39]

2. Three years ago the same newspaper refused to publish

cartoons that targeted christ, deeming them too inflammatory.

[Bjornsdotter]

3. That doesn't make it

...a manufactured situation between the US and Denmark.

Cheers

[glitch]

4. Not necessarily US and Denmark, more like neocon and neocon. nt

[bloom]

67. I thought it was Neocon vs. Muslim & anybody who sides with them.

And the effort here is to get non-Muslims against Muslims.

[AntiFascist]

72. There may be powerful Neocon "Muslims" who have everything to lose...

such as the Saudi Royals. We may be fighting wars for them. People like Bandar Bush?

[bloom]

78. That's possible.

I suppose it's whoever goes along with the Bush/neocon agenda Vs. those who don't.

Those who don't just seem more likely to be Muslims & Arabs - enemies of Israel - (and Venezuelans).

[Clara T]

14. No-No

The manufactured situation is not to be between US and Denmark, that will be a sideshow and at the embassies they will share wine.

This inflammatory cartoon was floated-published to elicit the very response they got, which they knew they would, from the Muslim world, and further the notion of the 'Clash of Civilizations' drivel.

What can be rather instructive in this type of situation is to remove yourself from this specific situation and see if there are any relevant parallels or precedents (in recent times) and examine the history and possible motives of the players involved.

A helpful thought experiment might be to put yourself in the editorial room of the newspaper and think about the possible conversation that occured during the decision-making process. Who made that decision and what is their agenda?

Another way to determine motives in this specific case, I would suggest, is to deeply study the words of Leo Strauss and his acolytes and how this may be relevant.

Strauss' view is that a political aristocracy must necessarily manipulate the masses for their own good. The Straussian worldview contends that perpetual deception of the citizens by those in power is critical because they need to be led, and they need strong rulers to tell them what's good for them.

Manufacturing consent through this constant manipulation is a cornerstone of these people.

I hope I'm clear on this as I wasn't exactly sure what you were getting at in your post.

[Bjornsdotter]

5. I'm not really sure

...why they wouldn't publish cartoons about Jesus. In general the Danes aren't very religious and have a very open press.

Cheers

[Ms. Clio]

11. Really? Cause that's not what this Dane says

Rotten judgment in the state of Denmark

The Danish paper that printed the cartoons wanted to stir up trouble -- and the government wanted a culture war. They got more than they bargained for.

By Jytte Klausen

<snip>

Mogens Glistrup, a tax protester turned xenophobe, was imprisoned for 20 days last year for a racist speech. He compared Turks to rabbits. Back in 1975, Jens Jorgen Thorsen, a multimedia artist belonging to the "situationist school," had a government grant provided to make a film about Jesus taken away. Five thousand young Christians had demonstrated in the street of Copenhagen against Thorsen and his movie and tumultuous scenes broke out. (Coincidentally, a police estimate held that about 5,000 people participated in one of the first demonstrations against the cartoons held in Copenhagen in October 2005.) Respected politicians spoke up and said that Thorsen had free speech, but if the blasphemy law had not been violated then certainly good taste and the feelings of religious Danes had the case dragged on in court forever with no conviction. Fourteen years later Thorsen had his government grant restored, adjusted for inflation.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/feature/2006/02/08/denmark/

[genieroze]

35. I guess they don't watch Southpark

:)

[katty]

76. newspaper is super conservative...perfect tool to incite backlash

[Clara T]

7. How much proof does one need

and what manner of proof is considered "proof"? Do we start with relevant historical patterns? Well the proof is a mile high. Do we then analyze the actions and words of those who put the cartoons into the public sphere? Of course this was done to provoke.

It was calculated. This sort of thing, though maybe not as incendiary, is done daily by these provocateurs to elicit responses, manipulate opinion and manufacture consent for their agenda.

For some they must always have "the smoking gun" to see what is all too obvious to the historical memory and the present day arrangements.

It's just breathtaking for me to see how many can quite well analyze certain situations and then compartmentalize other very related occurences.

This particular situation is really one in which the acolytes of Leo Strauss must be rolling their eyes at just how easily it is these days. Perhaps it is due to the years of social and cultural conditioning of mass advertising and mass propaganda.

[rinsd]

8. Or perhaps...

People think things are a bit more complicated than the neocons are behind it.

[sasha031]

9. this is an article I found earlier Clara

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=372243&mesg_id=372243

discussion started at above page, some didn't see it then either...
you can not look at things in black and white terms when it comes to dealing with neocons

my theory the flame throwing is for the coming war Iran, March is just around the corner

[rinsd]

15. That article is bullshit....

First in conflates race and religion. Then the author gets all huffy that anti-semticism is illegal in most European contries while ignoring that stirring up racial hatred is also prohibited. Also ignored of course is the Arab presses portrayal of Jews.

The law says nothing of blasphemy and rightly so.

Even scarier the author is calling for punishment for these "crimes".

[Bjornsdotter]

12. Proof

...of plot between the US and Denmark. I just don't see it...most Danes are against the war and were not happy with the government when they sent troops to the ME. What agenda? Do you really think the Danes want a bigger war in the ME? I don't.

I think a lot of people are applying American thinking to the Danes. Different culture, different outlook.

Cheers

[Clara T]

25. You're conflating

things a bit.

There was no plot between US and Denmark nor was their necessarily a plot in such a simple "We do A which leads to B".

Take the time to read Machiavellian theory and the teachings of Leo Strauss if you haven't already.

Peace

[sandnsea]

10. Aaargh, they're CAR-TOONS!!!!

And not even good cartoons. They were published LAST SEPTEMBER. And then republished this year. Why oh why would that happen unless somebody wanted to light a fuse. The western world simply does not care about CARTOONS.

Is that really your line in the sand with the Muslim world, the right to draw CARTOONS?!?

Of course we're being manipulated.

[Bjornsdotter]

20. Yes

I agree we are being manipulated...but not by some secret plot between the US and Danmark, but by a small group of extremists who are angry and rioting....by the Danish Iman who made a point of taking these cartoons and others pictures/cartoons that were never published to Egypt to fan flames. By the newspaper, I'm not sure I believe that the paper wanted to make things worse in the ME and for the Danes.

Cheers

[sandnsea]

24. Really?

So you mean to tell me that you aren't going to react to this recently concocted 'right to print cartoons' outrage; but you are going to react to some extremists who never meant beans to anybody until you were told they were the end to western freedom as we know it. Is that what you're saying? These CARTOONS suddenly made you realize just how vile and extreme the Muslim world really is??

[Bjornsdotter]

27. Vile and extreme?

I never said the Muslim world was vile and extreme.

What I am saying is....I don't think there was some secret plot between the US and Denmark.

Do I think that the Danes have the right to "Freedom of the Press" according to their standards...yes.

Do I think the Muslims have the right to boycott Danish products....yes.

Do I think that the extremists who are burning the embassies have the right to burn the buildings.....no.

Do I think that the Danish Iman should have included pictures that were never printed and had nothing to do with the cartoons....no.

Cheers

[Clara T]

28. Consider this article by Daniel Pipes

Again this is not a secret plot between Denmark and the US, at least not in my opinion, but is a confluence of interests between like-minded in both countries as happens between many factions from other nations.

These cartoons were done for a purpose though it wasn't necessarily to be clearly understood that such a firestorm would result. That is really a matter of timing and certain geo-political climates. It's never possible to predict outcomes but you can certainly keep agitating to increase the likelihood of getting the desired result.

And again understand the connection between Flemming Rose and Daniel Pipes. It's not like Rose even ran the cartoons by Pipes and said ...... it's more a matter of evryday affairs.

You'll see in this thread an article by Flemming Rose re: Daniel Pipes. Pipes by the way is an ardent Bush supporter and definitely an ideologue to put it kindly.

Cartoons and Islamic Imperialism

By DANIEL PIPES
February 7, 2006

The key issue at stake in the battle over the 12 Danish cartoons of the Muslim prophet Muhammad is this: Will the West stand up for its customs and mores, including freedom of speech, or will Muslims impose their way of life on the West? Ultimately, there is no compromise: Westerners will either retain their civilization, including the right to insult and blaspheme, or not.

More specifically, will Westerners accede to a double standard by which Muslims are free to insult Judaism, Christianity, Hinduism, and Buddhism, while Muhammad, Islam, and Muslims enjoy immunity from insults? Muslims routinely publish cartoons far more offensive than the Danish ones. Are they entitled to dish it out while being insulated from similar indignities?

Germany's Die Welt newspaper hinted at this issue in an editorial: "The protests from Muslims would be taken more seriously if they were less hypocritical. When Syrian television showed drama documentaries in prime-time depicting rabbis as cannibals, the imams were quiet." Nor, by the way, have imams protested the stomping on the Christian cross embedded in the Danish flag.

The deeper issue here, however, is not Muslim hypocrisy but Islamic supremacism. The Danish editor who published the cartoons, Flemming Rose, explained that if Muslims insist "that I, as a non-Muslim, should submit to their taboos ... they're asking for my submission." Precisely. Robert Spencer rightly called on the free world to stand "resolutely with Denmark." The informative Brussels Journal asserts, "We are all Danes now."

http://www.nysun.com/article/27151

[sandnsea]

31. Just extremists who can't take a joke

from the non-extremist world who wrote the sick jokes in the first place. Wrap it up in a patriotic symbol, and remove all responsibility. Seen that play before.

[sasha031]

39. Cole on Danish Caricatures / from informed comment

Muslim touchiness about Western insults to the prophet Mohammed must be understood in historical context. Most Muslim societies have spent the past two centuries either under European rule or heavy European influence, and most colonial masters and their helpmeets among the missionaries were not shy about letting local people know exactly how barbaric they thought the Muslim faith was. The colonized still smart from the notorious signs outside European clubs in the colonial era, such as the one in Calcutta that said, "Dogs and Indians not allowed."

Indeed, the same themes of Aryan superiority and Semitic backwardness in the European "scientific racism" of the 19th and early 20th centuries that led to the Holocaust against the Jews also often colored the language of colonial administrators in places like Algeria about their subjects. A caricature of a Semitic prophet like Mohammed with a bomb in his turban replicates these racist themes of a century and a half ago, wherein Semites were depicted as violent and irrational and therefore as needing a firm white colonial master for their own good.

(It is worth noting that in 2004 the Danish editor who commissioned the drawings, Flemming Rose, conducted an uncritical interview with the American neoconservative and Islamophobe Daniel Pipes. Pipes, an extreme right-wing supporter of the Israeli colonization of the Palestinian West Bank, has warned of the dangers of Muslim immigration into Denmark, claiming that "many of them show little desire to fit into their adopted country" and that male Muslim immigrants made up a majority of the country's rapists.) '
http://www.juancole.com/

[The Magistrate]

51. Unfortunately, Ma'am

The trotting out of the "colonialist" excuse is getting awfully old. In this case particularly, since that brief episode was preceded by centuries of Moslem imperialism in which non-Moslems were subjected to a range of second-class citizenships, and a number of indigenous religions and religious practices expunged by Moslem overlords.

The problem remains a very simple one: no adherent of any religion has the slightest right, nor even the slightest reason, to expect that persons who do not share that religious belief will abide by its dictates, and any person who so far forgets or remains ignorant of this as to demand that they do so is wrong.

[girl gone mad]

69. Well said. n/t

[AntiFascist]

80. I completely agree with your second paragraph...

[AntiFascist]

52. What I saw happening was more of a process....

CNN picked up the story right away and began focusing on it, then the rioting started to spread between various ME countries. Obviously the angry radicals wanted their anger to be known, but the western media seemed more than happy to focus on it, probably in hopes of detracting from the Republicans' problems and fanning the flames to gather support for an impending war in Iran. It also seems like odd coincidences that there was the the nerve agent scare yesterday, and today Bush releases information about the planned attack on Los Angeles. Did you notice the LA mayor's reaction?

[stillcool]

13. History?....

http://www.progressiveconvergence.com/nuclearfalseflagmail.htm

Goodness Gracious....doesn't anybody read anymore? I wish I could find you shorter stories....from what you might deem 'credible sources'... but you probably wouldn't read it anyway. Don't mean to sound short, but swallowing propaganda whole in this day, is just crazy. There is always cause and effect.

[AntiFascist]

54. Interesting....

there's also information recently made available about the Israeli spies who actually may have shadowed the 9/11 hijackers. I'm sure this information is detailed enough to be verifiable:

http://cryptome.org/dea-il-spy.htm

[oblivious]

56. Here's the proof: "The background to a provocation" (WSWS)

...Last autumn Jyllands-Posten assigned 40 prominent Danish caricaturists to draw the Prophet Muhammad. Twelve responded and the results were published on September 30. The project was deliberately designed to provoke.

According to the cultural editor of the newspaper, Flemming Rose, it was aimed at “testing the limits of self-censorship in Danish public opinion” when it comes to Islam and Muslims. He added: “In a secular society, Muslims have to live with the fact of being ridiculed, scoffed at and made to look ridiculous.”

When the anticipated reaction by the Muslim community failed to arise, the newspaper continued its campaign, determined to create a full-scale scandal. After a week had gone by without protest, journalists turned on Danish Islamic religious leaders who were well known for their fundamentalist views and demanded: “Why don’t you protest?”...

http://www.wsws.org/articles/2006/feb2006/denm-f10.shtml

[Karenina]

66. Yes!!! PLEASE protest here in Denmark!!

Throw a coupla rocks while you're at it so we can ramp up the free speech in the same vein that you've become so accustomed to!

For hot links go here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x377584#378206

Context is EVERYTHING
COPENHAGEN, August 4, 2005 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) – A Danish radio commentator has been charged with violating anti-racism laws for his anti-Muslim remarks in which he called for "exterminating Muslims" in Europe.
<snip>
A recent report by the International Helsinki Federation for Human Rights (IHF) also said that Muslim minorities across Europe have been experiencing growing distrust, hostility and discrimination since the 9/11 attacks.
Danish Muslims - estimated at 170,000 or around 3 per cent of Denmark's 5.4 million - sounded the alarms that much more restrictive steps would be taken by the government in future.
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2005-08/04/arti...

COPENHAGEN, April 15, 2005 (IslamOnline.net & News Agencies) – Denmark’s Queen Margrethe II claimed that Islam poses a global threat and urged government to show no tolerance toward the Muslim minority in the north European country, reported the Telegraph on Friday, April 15.
“We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance,” the queen said in an official biography published on Thursday, April 14.
http://islamonline.net/English/News/2005-04/15/article0...


WASHINGTON, September 8 (IslamOnline & News Agencies) – In an article published in the Canadian newspaper the National Post, two Danish politicians said that they were offended by the way integration problems in Denmark were portrayed in an article written by authors Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard.
<snip>
According to the Council on American-Islamic Relations (CAIR), Pipes has throughout his career exhibited troubling bigotry toward Muslims and Islam. As early as 1983, even an otherwise positive Washington Post book review noted that Pipes displays "a disturbing hostility to contemporary Muslims...he professes respect for Muslims but is frequently contemptuous of them," CAIR said on their website.
Recently, Pipes questioned the origins of the Quran, Islam's revealed text, and questioned whether the Prophet Muhammad ever existed. According to Pipes, the night journey of the Prophet Muhammad from Mecca to Jerusalem referred to in the Quran (17:1) never occurred.
Pipes also displays a racist's distaste for Muslim immigrants who "wish to import the customs of the Middle East and South Asia." (Los Angeles Times, 7/22/99) For Pipes, this sort of raw bigotry is nothing new.
In 1990, he said: "Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene...All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most." (National Review, 11/19/90).
http://www.islamonline.net/English/News/2002-09/08/arti...

By BOUTHAINA SHAABAN
Oustside View Commentator
DAMASCUS, Syria, Feb. 6 (UPI)

Denmark has become the country heading the spear of hatred against Islam and Muslims. In the 1990s, the Danish Popular Party considered Muslims in Denmark -- 4 percent of the population -- a "troubling problem." After Sept. 11, other Danish parties started sharing the same concern, and talking against "Muslims in Denmark" became a tool in election campaigns. The media started focusing on emigrant problems and accused Muslims of "violence" and "extremism." Even the queen herself joined the choir and expressed worry over the problems that her "Muslim" subjects represented.

A Danish Popular Party candidate in Copenhagen, Luis Ferivrette described Danish Muslims as "cancerous disease in the Danish society." The Party's spokesperson, Martin Henriksen, said that "Islam, since its beginning, has been a terrorist movement," and he warned against allowing Danish Muslims candidacy to the parliament or city councils. Henriksen describes Danish Muslim converts as "moral criminals" and prides in the fact that "criticizing Islam is the official policy of (his) Party." Within this context, the cartoon contest organized by Yandposten came as a natural result.
http://www.upi.com/InternationalIntelligence/view.php?S...

Research courtesy of DulceDecorum

[AntiFascist]

73. Excellent find....

but people may point to this as socialist propaganda. Are there more mainstream sources for this information?

[Clara T]

77. A question

and before I ask my rhetorical question let me say your posts are valuable.

When it is said the wsws website is considered socialist propaganda "Are there more mainstream sources for this information" isn't the then discovered and labeled "mainstream source", which is actually better and properly named "corporate news outlet", a source of capitalist propaganda.

The NY Times, for example, is if nothing else (and it is many things "else" but I'll spare you the invectives) a corporate-capitalist media outlet and an extraordinary source of state propaganda. One need not look at the stories, though that is rather obvious how ideologically manufactured the content of news is, but rather first examine just the ads and ask yourself who is their targeted audience?

[AntiFascist]

79. Thank you Clara T

There are several issues, I suppose the one thing that struck me most was that this site identifies itself as the World Socialist Web Site which clearly identifies its political perspective. Although socialism seems to be much more openly accepted in Europe, in the US there is much more of a "commie" stigma attached to it and at best mainstream publications will discuss social programs or socialized medical care. That's not to say that there may, in fact, be a growing number of supporters of socialism and the number may likely continue to grow as the middle class of America continues to dissipate.

Personally, I prefer a capitalist economic system, but I also feel that an underlying socialist or social set of programs is needed to provide for the basic needs of everyone. I don't believe in social darwinism and I fear that the Bush administration is dangerously close to adopting some form of this ideology as witnessed by the admin's response to Katrina. Notice also the history of anti-communist Catholics being against (Catholic sponsored)liberation theology. This "history" has had a profound effect on our "shadow government" (i.e. FEMA, CIA) which might one day take complete control if there ever were a massive disaster, along with all of its corruption and mafia affiliations.

You've asked a really poignant question.

I would agree that even our "liberal" media is dominated by globalist-corporatist interests, but I would hesitate to point out that there is a difference between corporatism and corporate capitalism. In other words, if you look hard enough you may find some good people in the business world. So, even if the corporatist-globalist dominated news media may be biased against examining the truth as it relates to the neocon agenda, they may on occaision entertain it.

I don't mean to imply that the wsws website is spreading propaganda, and it does give a very interesting history of the xenophobia that now exists as arising from the People's Party in the 90's.

From the start, the campaign had nothing to do with “free speech” and everything to do with the political agenda of the Fogh Rasmussen government, comprising of a coalition of right-wing neo-liberals and conservatives, together with the Danish People’s Party.

<snip>

The campaign unleashed by Jyllands-Posten is a continuation and intensification of this reactionary trajectory, aimed at bolstering the xenophobic policies of the government and strengthening its support for US imperialism.

<snip>

A campaign is emerging to depict Islam as an inferior culture that is incompatible with “Western values.” There are clear parallels here to the anti-Semitic caricatures that were spread in the 1930s by fascist newspapers such as the Nazi Stürmer. The depiction of Jews as sub-humans served as the ideological preparation for the Holocaust.

THERE'S MORE

If Americans can look past the Socialist identification of this website, they would find this article to be greatly informative.

[rinsd]

6. Really?

"The inflammatory anti-Muslim cartoons were a deliberate provocation designed to outrage and incite Muslims and thus engender support in Europe and America for the manufactured “clash of civilizations”. This is standard practice."

Considering how long it took for the outrage to come about, I think this disaster has many fathers which are working from different sides seeking different goals.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

17. yep. both sides are fanning the flames for their own ends.

The Imans (sp?) are rousing their base, the western neocons are reprinting the cartoons... our press is whoring it up.

sad sad sad.

[Behind the Aegis]

49. True, both sides are fanning the flames...

...interestingly enough, the blame is now being laid at the feet of the Jews. How sad that Islamaphobia has been morphed into anti-Semitism. Wasn't the Islamaphobia bad enough?

[AntiFascist]

55. I think intelligent people would not be blaming "the Jews"......

since many Jews these days may not be siding with neocons or Likudniks, is this not the case?

[Behind the Aegis]

57. So one would think...

Most Jews have never sided with Likud or neo-cons. However, that doesn't stop the fringes from laying the blame at the feet of the Jews. After all, we are responsible for anti-Semitic attacks because we may or may not support Israel. We are responsible for the current war in Iraq because there are so many "Jew" names on the PNAC doctrine. We are responsible for the cartoon debacle because some Dane spoke to a neo-con Jew. We are responsible for the cartoon debacle because the paper it was first printed in has a six-pointed star over the "I" in its name. Should I continue?

[AntiFascist]

60. I understand your sensitivity and it really is sad that there are so...

many ignorant people in the world who would blame an entire race for the actions of a few. The most blatant anti-Semitism comes from the radicals who are rioting and the leader of Iran. Why does stupidity always seem to be a characteristic of religious fundamentalism?

[centristo]

65. because

religious fundamentalism is stupid. I don't care which religion it is, they're all dangerous when taken to the extremes and history proves that many times over.

[Wordie]

16. An admirer of Daniel Pipes! Sheesh. That does explain a lot! eom

[Name removed]

26. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Oversea Visitor]

18. Define military victory

Pure fantansy and bullshit
Isreal has it hand full in palestine
Its occupation of even a small percentage of the middle east has shown it the pain
The US occupation of Iraq is a disater.

The path to using military as a solution is an illusion.
There is no better path to peace that peace itself.
There use of force and war to acheive peace is for the insane.

Daniel Pipes dream of total Israeli military victory is totally for the disconnected.
It has nothing to do with the world of reality.
But it is dangerous cause the mentally tax might take it as a reality
And might attempt to force the reality to become true.
Resulting in total choas pain suffering and all for ZERO
ZERO cause all one need is to try to imaging how can Isreal maintain an occupying force in Iraq Iran Saudi Syria Jordan Lebenon and so on.
It is not rich enough neither has it the manpower.
Dream on but dont even think of making this nightmare scenario become reality cause that it one surefire way to total destruction of Isreal.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

22. OV, I must say...

I really enjoy when you visit DU. :hi: :)

[Oversea Visitor]

29. Well

I do have the advantage of being less expose to lots of propoganda.
But somethimes me too have to say me guilty of behaving like chicken little running round shouting "SKY IS FALLING FALLING"

2 other distinct advantage I have is
1) Completely neutral to being a dem or repub
2) Do not need to have ego shatter about US as the greatest country in the world.

On point 2 lots of people around the world think that people in US live under a shell where they think the world consist of US only. It ends and begins there.

If one will to then look at the concept of like
Drawing a circle to represent one self on the understanding of the world or on knowledge
That most American draw a mighty small circle.
Such restriction is self impose.
Why be a small circle when one can be a bigger circle.
In a way this is so reflective as like people who think faux only sources of news.
Such limitation and refusal to enlarge knowledge can only do great harm to one self.
Oh well oh well to each his life

I once visited a home for the mental patient
There was a man fishing for fish in a dry drain barely 6 a foot wide.
There administrator told me
He might be more lucky than us cause to him his world is peaceful and all he crae about is the fish he catch.
Sometime I do think that do apply when it comes to knowledge
What one does not know sometimes does not hurt.

[Viva_La_Revolution]

33. It was a big shock to me to learn

that the USA was not #1, like they teach us growing up here.

I'm slowly learning, growing, making my circle bigger. :)

I wish the same for all my fellow Americans.

[Oversea Visitor]

37. You was not taught wrong

US used to be NUMBER 1 (ONE).
The people forget to count their blessing for eing number one

[Viva_La_Revolution]

48. Really! After reading some of our history....

all the way back to the overthrow of the Shaw in 1950's, and the secret CIA black ops in so many countries... it just seems like a looooong time since we were worth being #1.

I still respect some of the things I was taught.

Respect your elders.

Respect others.

Everyone is equal in the eyes of God. (Buddha, Muhammad.)

Be kind.

I guess there might be hope for us yet. :)

[Oversea Visitor]

50. Back in the days of the cold war

maybe one can say the CIA has a valid opponents in the KGB
One can only wonder as Russia roll into Afghanistan and got their ass kick
But in today world which was supposely more peaceful after the end of the cold war
We certainly reminded that we are in no less dangerous an era.
I guess dinosaur also need to fight to survive
After all, been render useless means extinction or delegation into absolute irrelevant.
Right now this so call small goverment is creating a humongous dinosaur as if it will justified it existant in a peaceful world.

Were the world be at peace, there is only so many countries in this world that can threaten world peace.
And since they all decided on peace existant at the moment I guess the dinosaur has to creat some enemies.

[Dunvegan]

71. Love the story about the man fishing in the drain.

Just perfect. Applies to everyone.

[rman]

53. Israel is hardly deploying all its military to control the Palestine

situation. I can't imagine you don't realize that.

Besides, what makes you think the neocons want peace?

[Oversea Visitor]

58. It is a matter of troops on the ground

Even US has its hand full in Iraq.
War is not about winning battles but about winning the war.
While Isreal can win the initial battle.
The war is only won when the countries are pacified.
Other than that it is hostile territory.
Isreal and any other country will bleed themself to death taking this course of action.

What you dont seem to realise is that reality of war is very different to figures on paper.

The neocon wish for war is a wet dreams.
The only reason they dare not make the dream comes true is that WAR is a disaster of the worst kind.
There is no winner
Just who kill more.

In this sense the war in Iraq is a wet dream come true.
Is it a victory?
Is it worth it?
No the price still being paid.
When it finally becomes too expensive
US will withdraw
All for what..... A WET DREAM
A wish of greatest.
And in desiring to prove the greatest one lose what once has the GREASTEST.

If you want someone to love and respect you.
You got to work at it.
Earned it with act of kindness and love.
You can not do that with force or gun
You can not buy it
You can not create it you can only earn it

The opposite of love is hatred
And when you attempt to force love your create hatred
So do not matter what the neocon wants in this case.
What they wish for is a wet dream
If they get their wish
Then it becomes a living nightmare in reality.
Such mentally deprive people usually end up in destroying themselves and many innocents in the process.
The choice is there for you Americans
2 dreams yours or the neocon.
Take your pick

[rman]

61. i think it's clear what i and most here want - and why,

but as of yet it is not us who decide whether or not war is waged.

[Oversea Visitor]

62. So when it get to be your call

It is your country
bush dont own the damn country.

[bobbieinok]

70. corporate media does....and notice how it's all 'Bush is wonderful'

being outside the US, you may not understand the effect hearing constant right wing radio 24/7 has on so many people here

I don't mean people listen to this 24/7.....I mean it's on 24/7 and if you turn on the radio you can't miss hearing some of the garbage, even if you immediately turn to a different station

I know many who listen to talk radio in the car or at work b/c they don't want to listen to music.......and all they get in most places is a choice between Rush or Hannity or O'Reilly or Boortz or Savage or Ingraham

if that's all you hear, you have to be pretty sophisticated to realize you're being manipulated and should seek out alternative sources of information.....which you will not find on the radio or on TV or in the newspaper......you have to get on the internet (and not everyone has internet access) AND realize you can get political info there......

for example

--I was using the internet for several years before Malloy at WLS woke me up to the fact that there was a lot of solid political info available on the internet

--a black man I talked to uses the internet to find out what's going on, but he's frustrated that his kids only use it for games and pop culture info

[fishnfla]

19. Yeah its a neocon plot alright

good-bye freedom of expression
good-bye freedom of speech
good-bye freedom of the press

hello tolerance of religion at all costs, including freedom of living

[Warren DeMontague]

21. If the cartoons were a deliberate provocation, the sensible response

would have been for the religious fanatics currently burning, rioting, and committing acts of violence over 'em not to take the bait.

As it is, lots of things in a free society can be considered by various folks 'deliberate provocation'. Art critical of the Catholic Church, Porn, What-have-you. The proper response to noxious speech like Nazis marching in Skokie is not censorship, but intelligent, educational speech in response. I'm certain that plenty of far right Christian conservatives in this country consider the legality of abortion and birth control to be a 'deliberate provocation'.

Sorry, if someone's rigid dogma causes them to be unable to function rationally in a free, open society where they may come in contact with different, potentially offensive ideas, that's their own problem. If this was a deliberate neo-con plot, it appears to have worked, because what could have been an opportunity for Islam to put a good face forward, educate, and dispel stereotypes, has turned into another glaring example of how religious fanaticism- of all stripes- is one of the worst forms of mental illness plaguing our planet today.

[Emit]

46. This blog entry from this website

does say that the initial response, based on info gained from Juan Cole's timeline, was peaceful, Muslims behaved responsibly, etc. and that when 'they' didn't get the reaction 'they' wanted, it was pressed further. IOW, they didn't initially take the bait. As I stated in my post below, I won't excerpt the text, as I am unfamiliar with this site so I have no idea what other info is there. But, the blog-entry I'm pointing to certainly does bring up some things that might need to be looked at more fully. Just more to think about.

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoonish-conspiracies.html

[applegrove]

23. Yes. Proof please. More likely muslims are just taking a page from

neocons books on how to organize.

[Emit]

30. I have tried to find out info about Jyllands-Posten

because I suspect what you say is true. I did come across an in interesting report today that discusses racial tension, immigration, etc. in Germany, the Netherlands and Denmark. Jyllands-Posten is noted in one of the pieces:

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:r5Z5LHlkVhoJ:humanityinaction.org/docs/2004reports2.pdf+Lars+Henrik+Munch+Jyllands-Posten&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=32&lr=lang_en

First, here's a snip from the humanitarian group's report that mentioned Jyllands-Posten in one of their pieces:

REPORTS OF
THE 2004 FELLOWS
IN DENMARK, GERMANY AND THE NETHERLANDS
VOL. 6, December 2004
Katharine Gricevich, Senior Fellow, Editor of Reports
Adam Jed, Senior Fellow, Introductory Comments

Since founding Humanity in Action seven years ago, we have
worked hard to define our objectives and mission. We
employ the language of broad principles and values claimed
by the human rights movement. Specifically, through educational
programs and a vital international network—the foundations
for action—we are committed to the protection of vulnerable
minorities. And yet, somehow we—and I mean the
Boards, Project Directors, Senior Fellows and 2004 Fellows—
are constantly groping to find a succinct and accurate
expression of our purpose and enterprise. The complexities
surrounding HIA’s programs and ambitions make it hard to
“market” HIA. But it is precisely those complexities that reflect
the vital challenge of HIA issues and the richness of personal
interactions and commitments.

~snip~

I believe that the minority issues in Europe—anti-Semitism,
Islamophobia and Muslim and Arab hatred of Western societies
—will get graver in the years ahead. Thus, the need for
sustaining the high quality of the programs, enhancing the
interaction of Fellows from many different backgrounds, HIA’s
vital network of board members, Fellows, Senior Fellows and
financial supporters and enriching and expanding the programs
in ambitious ways to meet the urgent challenges of our
times. My gratitude to all of those who help us in these critical
endeavours.

And here are excerpts from the piece from Denmark that noted Jyllands-Posten:

Mette explains that many of the problems associated with the
youth of Mjølnerparken arise because they are bored. There
is not enough to do; there are not enough places to go. On
top of it all, the media constantly refer to them as “bandits”—
media like the Jyllands-Posten, which recently published a
series of articles, co-written by Mette, about Mjølnerparken—
a “Rapport fra Mjølnerparken” (Report from Mjølnerparken).
H e re are some selected headlines from these art i c l e s :
“Derovre er Danmark – her er Libanon” (Over there is
Denmark – here is Lebanon), “Affald plager Mjølnerparken”
(Garbage is plaguing Mjølnerparken), “Flasker og skidt fløj ned
I haven” (Bottles and rubbish flew down in the garden), “En ny
generation af rødder er på vej” (A new generation of “troublemakers”
is on its way), “Handlingsplan lagt på hylden” (Action
plan put on the shelf). Another article: “Hvad er integration”
(What is integration?). In this article, 40-year-old Ali Alacddin
says, “We are not born here and can never become 100 percent
Danish. We have another background. We feel safe and
comfortable by being with people from our own culture.”

I have been trying to get my hands on these articles themselves to read for myself what this means exactly. Seems, however, based on what I have read from this extensive report, is that there is a great deal of racial tension there in Denmark with Muslims and other groups of people at the center.

Here's more from the article:

Popular visions of the American “ghetto” usually include a
pattern of stock images: random drive-by shootings, crack
addicts smoking up in the streets, and young black women
with too many babies. But what they really mean is that
respectable people do not go to the ghetto, that people in the
ghetto are causing their own problems, and that those angry
young black men are to be feared. In Denmark, it is the young
Muslim women who are having too many babies, the young
Muslim boys who are creating the next crime wave, and the
old foreign immigrants who are too lazy to work: The four
small buildings and courtyards that comprise Mjølnerparken
are to be feared.

When I get my hands on some articles from this newspaper, hopefully, the ones noted in this report, I can then determine what perspective this newspaper comes from. I have read a bit about it's ties, but I would like some links to substantiate this for myself, as I was not able to find much about the newspaper in the time I had today to research its background. Seems if we know what the newspaper/journal is about, their point of view politically, etc., we can have better insight into exactly why they chose to publish these cartoons. It does seem reasonable that if, say, the Weekly Standard (Kristol) or National Review Online
(Ledeen) here in the states did such a thing, red flags would definitely be raised in my mind. Just wondering...

[Clara T]

34. Consider the paper in Norway that published the cartoons

Magizinet, they then withdrew them from their websites after threats.

To read more from these papers go to:

www.watchingamerica.com

Scroll down.

[Emit]

41. TX, I'll do that. BTW,

Juan Cole has a good timeline--explains a lot, IMO

http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/fact-file-on-reaction-to-danish.html

Monday, February 06, 2006

Fact File on Reaction to Danish Caricatures

It is being alleged in some quarters that the controversy over the Danish caricatures of the Prophet Muhammad is somehow artificial or whipped up months later by the Saudis. This is not true. The controversy began in Denmark itself among the 180,000 Danish Muslims. It was taken up by the ambassadors of Muslim states in Copenhagen. Then the Egyptian foreign minister began making a big deal of it, as did Islamist parties in Turkey and Pakistan. The crisis has unfolded along precisely the sort of networks one would have expected, and become intertwined with all the post-colonial crises of the region, from the foreign military occupation of Iraq to the new instability in Syria and Lebanon.

Below is a press record on the controversy, drawn from the Foreign Broadcast Information Service, a translation service of the CIA that is later released under various commercial auspices, including BBC World Monitoring and World News Connection.

~snip~

Anyway, the allegation that this thing was fanned by Saudi Arabia does not seem to be substantiated by the FBIS record, which shows Egypt's secular foreign minister to have been among the main fanners of the flame. Minor members of youth wings of Islamist parties in places like Pakistan then got into the action. Nor is it true that things were quiet after the immediate publication of the cartoons. Nor is it true that the Danish prime minister or the Jyllands-Posten expressed any sympathy for the hurt feelings of Muslims early on. Indeed, they lectured them on being uncivilized for objecting.

http://www.juancole.com/2006/02/fact-file-on-reaction-to-danish.html

Anybody familiar with http://xymphora.blogspot.com/ ? They have a couple of blog entries on this subject. I will invite readers to read this:

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoonish-conspiracies.html


but I won't post any excerpts yet until I get a feel for their site, in case it has stuff DU doesn't like being posted.

[Clara T]

44. Excellent find

I found the comments after the article to be well worth the read. Thanks.

Hope others will read these. Interesting.

http://xymphora.blogspot.com/2006/02/cartoonish-conspiracies.html

[AntiFascist]

59. Interesting....

I wonder who started the Saudi conspiracy theory? :yoiks:

The main reason I would feel that Saudis could have control over situations like these is because of their tremendous financial resources and the fact that much of the Islamic religous hierarchy originates in the holy cities within Saudi Arabia. They could affect media as well as issue fatwas and such, although I'm sure Juan Cole must be the expert on all of this. On a side note, they seem to have some influence over Western media as well, ahem.

[bloom]

68. Managing director married to Anders Eldrup - Bilderberg attendee/DONG

Merete Eldrup, the managing director of JP/Politikens Hus, the parent company that owns Jyllands-Posten, is married to Anders Eldrup of Denmark, a Bilderberg attendee for the last five years. Anders Eldrup is chairman of Danish Oil and Natural Gas (DONG).?
http://www.rumormillnews.com/cgi-bin/forum.cgi?read=85229


-----

I think that is an interesting connection. It seems like the "chairman of Danish Oil and Natural Gas" (and his spouse) might have interests in Iran and Syria - similar to Bush, Cheney, Rice, etc.

And people have suggested before that people at Bilderberg might set war agendas.

[AntiFascist]

74. That's why its now called the military-oil-industrial complex n/t

[Tom Joad]

32. Pipes is a former advisor to Bush. Supported military aid to Saddam.

Go figure.
It does all make sense though, when you think about it. Pipes hates Arab/Muslim people. Saddam was killing lots of people, especially when Pipes was supporting giving Saddam weapons, during the Iran/Iraq war. So for Pipes, it was a win-win situation. Someone else does the killing.

http://tomjoad.org/pipes.htm
See here for a copy of The New Republic article.

Also interesting to note that the ADL also supported Daniel Pipes appointment to "United States Institute of Peace" Gives "peace" a whole new meaning.

[sasha031]

36. Rotten in Denmark

The publication of 12 cartoons in Jyllands-Posten, a Danish right-wing newspaper, that caricatured the prophet Muhammad was clearly a provocation – and it has had its intended effect. The editor responsible claims the genesis of the cartoons was the alleged reluctance of artists to illustrate an upcoming children's biography of Muhammad: they are supposedly too afraid to step forward, fearing violent retaliation. All this before anyone had so much as raised their voices over the matter: now, of course, the subject dominates headlines throughout much of Europe and the Middle East.

Riots throughout the Muslim world, demands for the expulsion of the Danish ambassador from a number of countries, attacks on the Danish (and Norwegian) embassies in Beirut and Damascus – this incident couldn't have roiled relations between Islam and the West more if it had been planned that way, which raises the question: was it? Is something rotten in the state of Denmark? We don't know, and probably will never know, but it is worthwhile looking into the origins of this particular incident, because a very definite odor is wafting in from the general direction of Copenhagen.
The publication of the 12 cartoons, and the reaction on both sides, is a classic case of how propaganda of the crudest sort is utilized to mold mass attitudes and whip up entire populations into a state of hysteria. Hate and fear are created out of thin air by the most skillful means, and stereotypes take the place of reality as the world prepares for war. That's what this is all about: the hate propaganda emanating from certain quarters in Europe and the U.S. amounts to preparations for war just as much as the manufacture of arms and the mobilization of armies at the border. We are being psychologically prepared for another world war, and the first shots are being fired from the pages of Jyllands-Posten. I have the sinking feeling that they won't be the last…
http://antiwar.com/justin/

you have to read this in its entirety to get the Big picture

[AntiFascist]

38. Thank you Clara T !!!

My thread got shut down after I was called "pro-fascist" for linking to certain websites. Please, let's not let the neocons win.

[Clara T]

40. An American Indian's View of the Cartoons

Such Depictions Have Been Used as a Weapon Against Oppressed Peoples for Centuries

An American Indian's View of the Cartoons

By ROBERT ROBIDEAU

Reading the first news reports about the cartoons depicting Muhammid as a terrorist reminded me of the unfriendly media that printed the then Attorney Gerneral of for South Dakota, William Janklows` vigilante order, "The only way to deal with the Indian problem in South Dakota is to put a gun to the AIM leaders' heads and pull the trigger." Such ethnically hostile and abusive reporting by mainstream media was what helped to kill more than 60 American Indians and assault hundreds more during the federal governments reign of terror that occurred between 1973 and 1975 on the Pine Ridge Oglala Lakota reservation.

The old adage that was popularized in Hollywood westerns," White man speaks with forked tongue" had a special meaning. It denoted the deceit of European settlers who often lied to North American Indian people as they stole coveted lands and nearly decimated them as a people. The recent split tongue approach used in defending Danish racist cartoons as freedom of speech must be loudly condemned as just more attacks on the rights of Muslims to defend their lands, culture and self determination.

Most European and North American newspapers support the editor of, Jyllands-Posten, the first paper to publish the offensively racist cartoons, expressed position, "we cannot apologize for freedom of expression."
The word "but" is a favorite transition of hypocrites who would have us believe on one hand that freedom of speech is a democratic principle to be defended at all cost, while on the other hand are quick to condemn when it attacks and incites hatred toward them and those they wish to protect.

Many "Democratic" European countries have laws against anti-Semitism, which are exclusive; they do not protect other cultures from racial attacks. You can insult the prophet of Islam with offensive cartoon messages that deface his image, to create an atmosphere of hatred for Muslims, but dare not tread on the special rights and protections they have formed laws around to protect anti-Semitism.

http://www.counterpunch.org/robideau02092006.html

[Emit]

42. Yes, I'm trying to be very careful with

or what I post. This is a strange thing happening here. It's not as black and white as others want it to be. There are a lot of questions that need to be asked and answered before we make our final judgments. This is exactly the kind of Machiavellian tactic that the neocons would implement to strike hard at the hearts of all sides. I would like to think that calmer, wiser minds can prevail.

[AntiFascist]

43. Well, I should have looked at the websites I was linking to more....

carefully, and I'm very sorry if they really contain anti-Semitic content. I've usually been careful about this in the past (except in the case of Wayne Madsen who I DON'T consider to be anti-Semitic).

On the other hand, why is it that more moderate or mainstraim sites aren't carrying this news? One can hope that DU would bravely press ahead.

[Emit]

47. Ironic, really, considering the topic, isn't it? n/t

[Tom Joad]

45. Remember, the cartoons were the match, the fuel was the "West" war

on Arab countries, that includes torture, occupation, attacks on media outlets! (not from protesters, but from shiny, expensive F-15 bombers!), kidnappings by US military. Then there is the long-standing, US supported occupation of Palestine. Add a few US supported Arab dictatorships, who allow little or no political organizing but plenty of religion... this is what happens.

[Wordie]

63. Excellent point. The context is crucial in understanding why this happened

and many seem to deplore the reaction to the cartoons w/o understanding that greater context.

[slor]

64. Clara T, I think your analysis is...

spot on.

[katty]

75. WH loves the Muslim riots, ramp up energy to justify Iran-attack