CONTEXT for CARTOONS: Danish anti-racism laws; official Muslim persecution

[Leopolds Ghost]

CONTEXT is EVERYTHING

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=377584&mesg_id=378206

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In 2005, A Danish radio commentator was charged with violating Danish anti-racism laws
for his anti-Muslim remarks in which he called for "exterminating Muslims" in Europe.

**

Denmark’s Queen Margrethe II claimed that Islam poses a global threat and urged government to show no tolerance toward the Muslim minority in the north European country, reported the Telegraph on Friday, April 15.

“We have to show our opposition to Islam and we have to, at times, run the risk of having unflattering labels placed on us because there are some things for which we should display no tolerance,” the queen said in an official biography published on Thursday, April 14, 2005.

**

In an article published in the Canadian newspaper the National Post, two Danish politicians said that they were offended by the way integration problems in Denmark were portrayed in an article written by authors Daniel Pipes and Lars Hedegaard.

In 1990, said: "Western European societies are unprepared for the massive immigration of brown-skinned peoples cooking strange foods and maintaining different standards of hygiene...All immigrants bring exotic customs and attitudes, but Muslim customs are more troublesome than most." (National Review, 11/19/90).

**

In the 1990s, the Danish Popular Party considered Muslims in Denmark -- 4 percent of the population -- a "troubling problem." After Sept. 11, other Danish parties started sharing the same concern, and talking against "Muslims in Denmark" became a tool in election campaigns.

A Danish Popular Party candidate in Copenhagen, Luis Ferivrette described Danish Muslims as a "cancerous disease in the Danish society." The Party's spokesperson, Martin Henriksen, said that "Islam, since its beginning, has been a terrorist movement," and he warned against allowing Danish Muslims candidacy to the parliament or city councils.

Henriksen describes Danish Muslim converts as "moral criminals" and prides in the fact that "criticizing Islam is the official policy of (his) Party." Within this context, the cartoon contest organized by Yandposten came as a natural result. (UPI)

[Leopolds Ghost]

1. no comment? n/t

[tocqueville]

3. read below nt

[tocqueville]

2. so what ? this crap can be found in any European country

it doesn't prove anything

1) Mohammed cartoons have circulated before in many European countries, many times in left-wing magazines criticizing the fundamentalistic aspects of Islam, sometimes even as historical cartoons for kids and teens
http://www.outpost911.com/

2) the Danish cartoons were published in Egyptian newspapers in october 2005 (during the Ramadan !) without causing any major outrage



http://www.flickr.com/photos/97632393@N00/97244039/

http://egyptiansandmonkey.blogspot.com/2006/02/boycott-egypt.html

3) under the last twenty years Mohammed has been depicted on serious book covers in the West without causing any outrage. Pictures of Mahomet can be found in Christian Churches and museums. Sometimes for praise, sometimes to inform, sometimes to defame.

http://www.outpost911.com/

4) UPI is very biased. Besides they cannot even spell the newspapers name right : it's Jylland Posten, not "Yandposten"

conclusion : the "leftist" theory of a Danish racist plot is nothing but BS.

[AntiFascist]

4. So the Danish monarchy and the Danish Popular party....

would then be in favor of Neocon policies of attacking Islam, or at least Islamic extremism.

[tocqueville]

5. what I know of the Danish monarchy has a very different record

the former King had the courage to wear in public the infamous yellow Jewish star and openly defy the Nazis during WWII

My post above states that racistic tendencies can be found in any European country. But they are primarily based on race, not religion. Of course religion can be used to express racism (specially after the resurgence of fundamentalism), but demeaning expression about "arabs" are not primarily religious, because Europe is mostly secular (to a level that most Americans don't understand, even among liberals). One third of the Muslims are Indonesians and it has never bothered anybody, except Christian fundies.

Denmark is no exception. The people that started the cartoon rioting could have been using any European country's cartoons. They probably chose the Danish for a question of timing that has to do with the pressure on Iran.

[AntiFascist]

6. Supporting the neocon agenda ultimately has little to do with race...

or religion and more with economics and control. They would only be playing into religion or racial hatred for these purposes.

[The Pain]

7. heard this on the daily show

Weren't some of the comics that were supposedly the cause of this outrage not actually those printed in Danish newspapers, but also that the muslim clerics either drew, or had someone else draw up even more and worse insulting comics so they could stir up as much hell as they could?

Least that's what John Stewart Said

[mcscajun]

8. That's exactly right. There were a dozen cartoons printed in the Danish

and Norwegian papers (the same twelve) and then there were three others that had not seen circulation, and that were far, far worse, brought to a meeting of Muslim clerics. That seems to be when the trouble started.

[tocqueville]

12. the 3 others are fakes

one of them is a bad xerox of a French guy with a pig mask in a pig squealing contest that had nothing to do with the cartoons. He was presenting as impersonating Mahomet.

[rodeodance]

17. yes, but think orig. 13 (I may be wrong about this)

[mcscajun]

18. Link to image on Wikipedia

http://tinyurl.com/bk78p

[DemExpat]

11. See post nr. 10 where a Danish journalist explains this from his pov.

DemEx

[Leopolds Ghost]

9. Hey, I don't like it either... all my relatives came over from Europe.

I agree that even "Christian conservatives" in Europe tend to be
Thatcherites with a veneer of establishment religion.

I agree Denmark used to be the most progressive country in Europe until recently, especially with regards to Anti-Semitism, so it's sad to see Anti-Semitism rear its ugly head in the guise of anti-immigrant, anti-Muslim sentiment.

Anti-Jewish sentiment in Germany was never about religion either.

I think people's fear and distrust of "the other" is hard-wired in the same parts of people's brains that are wired to believe in little green men (elves, aliens, etc.)

[tocqueville]

14. it has to do with integration failure

for historical/economical reasons the Muslim immigration to Europe has created a lot of problems, and I don't know of any country that has succeeded with it maybe with the exception of Spain (on the other hand their immigration is very recent).

The problems started when the temporary labor immigration settled and created families. Because Europe fell into a recession and the majority of these workers were the first to be unemployed, many of them being relatively unskilled

the fact that they used EU-welfare created jealousy (even if they were entitled to it)

the suburban concentration was not emptied or very little because of the lack of possibilities to getting better jobs, and thus afford better living conditions. This created real ghettos with a high rate of criminality.

Under the 90s Islamic fundamentalism started to win sympathies in those areas. More and more Muslims started to demand special treatment specially in schools, even if the vast majority of the European muslims is secular and as much "mosque-goer" than any Christian "churchgoer" which is quite little. But they become "representative", when they weren't. Religious exceptions (in law) are NOT popular in Europe because of the secular background. Specially since many of the demanded exceptions had to do with the treatment of women (marriage, scarves, sexual education etc...).

Under the mid 90s a wave of bombings hit Europe, specially France (due to the special ties to Algeria). The most spectacular was the hijacking of a full seated airliner aimed to be crashed on the Eiffel Tower (the situation was defused with practically no civilian victims by the French GIGN and all terrorists killed). The concept of Islamic terrorism was born, which of course didn't help the "arabs"...

9/11, the Madrid and London Bombings made everything worse. The arrests of Al Quaeda sympathysizers are routine now, hardly mentioned in the media. At least most of those guys are guilty, often weapons and explosives are founds at crackdowns. This doesn't improve the situation. Neither did the recent rioting in France which had nothing to do with Islamism, but more with social unrest and police interference with criminality. But people associate...

The cartoons in that context were practically a no-event in Europe. Untill the storming and burning of embassies broke out. A catholic priest assassinated for the cartoons in Turkey has been buried today in Italy (the story is kept very low-key)...

I don't think that all this would make a war with Iran "popular". The only accepted war today is the
one in Afghanistan, because of its cause considered as just (the pursuit of OBL) and the low level of casualties...

[genie_weenie]

20. Hey Great Post (as always)

Thanks for the excellent, reasoned and well stated posts in response to this bullcrap issue.

[Leopolds Ghost]

21. In the US, Women have the Right to wear scarves.

I don't care about the "secular" background.

Also, the concept of Islamic terrorism dates back to the 1970s.

I'm not surprised if folks in France see the recent riots and
unrest as symptomatic of police interference with criminality.
It is easy to stereotype people who live in ghettoes as criminals...

The problem is that Muslims are being treated in Europe the way
blacks are treated in the US. In France it does not help that
almost all the Muslims ARE black.

The fact that some Europeans look down on them because they are secular, and other Europeans look down on them because they CLAIM to be Christians (when as you point out there are few genuine Christians left in Europe) makes no difference. The motivation is the same either way.

If anything, their secularism seems increase their sense of "liberal ennui" (I use the phrase advisedly) about losing their culture. It's
ironic that all of a sudden Europe is supposed to be Fortress Christendom when all the genuine progressive Christians seem to be over here on the Western Hemispbere. And we get along just fine with Muslims and are not worried about losing our culture, and are not worried about losing our 1st Amendment, -- perhaps because we have one!!

:evilfrown:

[Karenina]

23. If you are not concerned about the threat

to your First Amendment rights, you have not been paying close enough attention.

[DemExpat]

10. Another context from a Danish journalist on an Islamic site

which I find very even-minded and fair assessment of all of this.
From someone familiar with the context of Danish society, journalism and laws.

I found it very interesting too.

http://www.islamonline.net/livedialogue/english/Browse.asp?hGuestID=1R26hu

I also heard on Dutch news tonight that a group of Danish Muslims are now travelling to the Middle East to stand up for their country Denmark and for the Danish people.

DemEx

[tocqueville]

13. very interesting post, everyone should read it.... nt

[AntiFascist]

15. The point that many of us are trying to make....

is not that the cartoon publications broke any laws, and not that Danish news media (in general) or Denmark in general has any sort of bias or agenda. It's great that they enforce and believe in freedom of speech and, and generally the rioters are wrong in their response and Muslim extremists really should have more of a sense of humor.

What we are more concerned with are the sociological and political factors involved and how these are being manipulated by specific individuals, together with the American media, to advance a specific war agenda inside the United States, and also to garner more support from Europeans for that war agenda. Do you think it may be more likely, now that this event has happened and has been exploited, that Denmark may be less likely to criticize the US in going to war against Iran?

[DemExpat]

16. They will start their war regardless IMO.....

and if Dutch discussion on television is any sign of what is taking place in other Western European countries at his time, then real dialogue is for the first time opening up between representatives of the Muslim population and others. This simply HAS to happen if there is to be any progress with the critical problems in our societies.

My view is Eurocentric at the moment and American views are slightly on the side for me at present - I view this crisis as a huge threat for European freedoms.

As for Europeans being more likely to support a war against Iran - I don't know about this, because many here do see a threat from a theocratic Islamic state with nuclear weapons - but my impression is that most Europeans in general do not support Bush or his wars.

As for leftist parties here supporting the Danish (and the rest of Europe's) free speech and condemning extremist threats, they at the same time see the growing problems in the world between Islam and the West as extremely exacerbated by the present US government, its attitudes and policies.

My impression also is that most Europeans don't seem to be such sheeple as many Americans seem to be, but that may also be a result of having a relatively FREE PRESS.


DemEx

[Leopolds Ghost]

22. At Least we have FREE SPEECH

Free speech is not a matter of degree. You either have it or you don't. Americans are not insecure about what people may riot over. It will not cause the gov't to censor something if the violence gets out of hand because in the US IT DOESN'T MATTER HOW OFFENSIVE THE SPEECH IS. THAT IS THE KEY, THE ONLY KEY TO FREE SPEECH.

In Europe, you can't denounce speech as offensive without implicitly asking that it be regulated. It's insane.

ANd I have no respect for the neocons who have hijacked Denmark and taken it to war in Iraq. That includes secular anti-Muslim liberals who see "dialogue" with Muslims as so goddamn essential because somehow the alternative is -- what? We kick 'em all out? We leave 'em in ghettoes if they don't behave? Sounds like the way my upper middle class "liberal" neighbors talk about black people.

[rodeodance]

19. at one time I thought Denmark was going to withdraw its trroops, but they

still have 500 plus in Irag.

.......What we are more concerned with are the sociological and political factors involved and how these are being manipulated by specific individuals, together with the American media, to advance a specific war agenda inside the United States, and also to garner more support from Europeans for that war agenda. Do you think it may be more likely, now that this event has happened and has been exploited, that Denmark may be less likely to criticize the US in going to war against Iran?