David Swanson: Debating Impeachment Among Democrats

[paineinthearse]

http://www.davidswanson.org/?q=node/452

Debating Impeachment Among Democrats
By dswanson
Created 2006-02-12 04:12
By David Swanson

Can you even imagine Republicans, even if they were in a minority in Congress, debating whether or not to call for the impeachment of a Democratic president known and documented as guilty of a wide range of high crimes and misdemeanors? In particular, if you can imagine that, can you imagine the Republicans who opposed impeachment arguing that they were doing so for strategic political reasons? This is hard to imagine, because the Republicans won a majority in Congress by loudly proclaiming what they would do if they had it. The main thing they said they would do and still say they will do is oppose the agenda of the Democrats.

Meanwhile, Democratic voters and lapsed voters keep waiting for the Democrats to have an agenda. Polls show that most of us want strong positions on single-payer health care, clean elections, ending the war, shifting to renewable energy, investing in education, restoring the minimum wage, restoring New Orleans, and other policies that incumbent Democrats are usually - at best - taking baby steps on. The Democrats in Congress seem to be operating under the delusion that they might achieve something small by trying to cooperate with the radical right-wingers who rule the committees. The RNC depicts Nancy Pelosi as Darth Vader, but she wants to work cooperatively with them. At some point this behavior develops into self-hatred.

One of the positions that we Democratic voters seem to care most strongly and decisively about is impeachment of the president. In a recent Zogby poll in Pennsylvania, 85 percent of Democrats favored congressional candidates who are committed to impeachment. Over 75 percent STRONGLY preferred such candidates. These and other polls are revealing not just a preference, but a passionate preference.
http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/polling. Democrats who think they can run on content-free platforms and win because of disgust for Bush are apparently aware of the disgust that's out there. What they are missing is that it's even higher for Democrats who fail to stand up to Bush. I've been at a number of events around the country - Democratic events and anti-war events - where the applause and cheering for impeachment has been matched only by the booing and hissing for Democrats who roll over and refuse to challenge the Bush regime.

Some commentators say we can't push impeachment until after non-Republicans win a majority in Congress. This makes no sense to me, because first we need a reason to vote the Democrats a majority. You don't get a majority without offering people a reason to vote you one. If 85 percent of Democrats want candidates who stand for impeachment, impeachment could help win a majority. These two goals are not opposed, but impeachment may need to come first if winning Congress is to be achieved. Winning Congress for the Democrats may or may not be needed in order to impeach Bush and Cheney. It also may or may not lead to impeachment. This will depend on what sort of Democrats we elect, how we pressure them once they're in, and whether we've built a massive campaign for impeachment that is already up and running once they get there. It's hard enough getting Democrats to do what they promise to do during their campaigns. Imagine how hard it would be to get them to do something controversial if we'd all kept quiet about it during the campaigns!

more......

[libodem]

1. I like this line of thinking

The author has a point. What are we waiting for? I've recently commented in a couple of threads that Republicans do the righteous indignation and moral outrage much better than we do. The word offended came to my mind to day. 'They' have a way of being highly offended when their sensibilities are challenged. We don't seem to play the high and mighty, look down your nose, and sneer, and talk down to people like they do. I think it's high time we became very offended and indignant about Republican behavior. They are getting away with murder. We are pussyfooting around trying to be nonpartisan and cooperative. How quaint.

[lsulib]

2. Impeachment is a dead end street

OK first time poster and I know this is going to be unpopular but here I go.

I been lurking here for a while and finally have decided to get involved a little with a little in this forum. Impeachment is a bad idea. It seems to be an obsession with many and I dont know why. Let me make the case for no impeachment. IN 2006 if we regain the House , which there is a good chance of, Bush will have two years in office. He will be practically powerless. He will won't even be a factor 6 or 7 months after that because all the attention will be focused on the primaries in both parties. The reason we have had no voice is because we have had no platform. Being in the minority really has shown that. My question is why waste our political energy on a guy that will be out in two years. I am in Louisiana. We are hurting here, our coastline is disappearing. We need help now the poor and the workin class folks that are ignored need Help. To be honest from a pure human point of view I dont think we give two damns about impeachment just help. If Impeachment sucks away all the energy then I feel again we be left out in the cold.

Second, This as I mentioned is a platform for us to talk about Health care, the poor, the needs of the older folks, people, and tesp the environment. This is a chance to have a voice to be heard nationally in order to take back the Presidency and show yes there is a better way.

Third. Whats the point anyway. Lets say the Prez is impeached. How is he going to convicted in the Senate. It doesnt make sense to me. It wont happen. LEts use our energy to make things happen

Fourth, despite the above article, I dont buy that the people in this country want to go through any more trauma. There exhausted. An impeachment proceeding could very well backfire because of that. I guess my point is we can start offering solutions. The media cannot ignore us anymore.

[paineinthearse]

3. really

:rofl:

[lsulib]

5. Yeah really

Ok where am I going wrong. Let me tell you I just returned from Rep Charlie Melachon district. Besides William Jefferson he is the only other Dem we have. He now has a popular Republican against him. Charlie can win relection though. These cajuns are poed at FEMA left and right. They really care more about survival than anything else. If Democrats make Impeachment a huge issue let me tell you we might lose this seat down here. The gen feeling is pox on both the Dems and the Repubs. I dont see what we gain by losing a house seat in Louisiana by the way.

[ClintonTyree]

4. There's a lot of truth in what you say.........

and welcome to DU! :hi: I guess the thing that sticks in my craw is letting bush and his criminal cabal get away with all of their transgressions scott-free. That would not be a good message to send out to the other fascist leaning Republicans, that you can break the law and get away with it: just don't get caught, that would be the message.
bush et al. must pay in some way for their crimes, it's not a matter of revenge, it's a matter of the law. The Republicans love to quote "the rule of law" all the time, but certainly don't practice it.
Just like Nixon, I believe there must be an example made here: if you break the law, no matter what your position within the government, you're going to have to face the consequences.

[lsulib]

6. thanks

Thanks for the welcome. I see your point about the law. I have to admit I have not been convinced on some stuff that people say Bush did. But I think the stuff going up to the war was very fishy and something might lead there. I am just frustrated I guess. IN the end there will no conviction. This is my view.
Some critics are right. What is our plan. I dont think Americans know. I want action thats all. I guess Katrina has really brought that home to me. Its seems everyone is so busy talking about blame I am tired of it. I want the trains to run on time down here. I am worried about the next hurricane. We cant even get the media out of NOLA to see our problems. Its like New Orleans all the time. I tell you a couple of visits by Democrats in area outside New Orleans would do wonders. LIke hey we are the Democractic party and we care. You exist. We could carry LA in 2008 if that happened
Thanks for the welcome

[ClintonTyree]

13. I understand your frustration about the lack of aid to Lousiana.....

it boggles the mind that we can spend hundreds of billions (WASTE much of that) in Iraq yet we can't help to repair Louisiana and get people's lives back to normal. That is unconscionable. I believe we owe allegiance to our own first, all others second. The war in Iraq was and remains a huge mistake, it's a black hole, sucking in resources faster than we can provide them. And to the people of Louisiana? Lip service, all talk and no action. It breaks my heart. I read NOLA.com every day, so I am aware of the problems. My daughter is a Senior at Tulane so I have an interest (nothing like your's though, to be sure) in NO getting back on track ASAP.
I know there are many issues that you're dealing with at the moment. It's said that the people of the Gulf Coast are ticking time-bombs, that the level of stress and loss in their lives is unimaginable and sooner or later it is going to manifest itself in ways that aren't going to be pleasant. Don't let that happen to you.
Hang in there, I guess that's about all I can offer. If you can think of anything you need, anything that I could be of assistance with, please let me know. PM me, at least I can listen if nothing else. The stress you're dealing with must be crushing. Hearing empty promises all the time must be pushing you ever closer to the edge. Things will get better, I know that's not much of a consolation but, in time, things will return to semi-normal anyway, just don't give up. We DO care and if it were up to me, every resource the government had would be available to you.
Hang in there, I know it's tough but the alternative isn't even an option.

[lsulib]

18. Thanks and let me tell you this

The Democrats can win the White House if they play it smart. The biggest complaint I hear is that it NOLA all the time. National Democratic Groups are doing nothing to help the problem either I might add. This is the honest on the ground perception of the working people down here is that all the Democrats care about is New Orleans. Folks, NOLA is not where the votes are going to be. IT is gone as we know it. Come down here and start talking Coastal erosion and not only have you got a way to win the State and thus win the White HOuse but have got a enviromental issue that will grab the nation,

[MissWaverly]

42. I wrote Both Howard Dean and my senator

to ask them to help the Gulf Coast, they have their 50 state strategy but if there was a
mass appeal to all us Dems to help you; I would kick in extra. Plus I think it would be
good PR and show that we do stand for something. Has it got anywhere, No, No and No.

[BR_Parkway]

7. I'd have to disagree - why can't we enforce the law while pushing

for health care, why can't we enforce the law while taking care of the needs of the poor/elderly? Why can't we enforce the law while doing good for the environment? Why would you think that our system of government can only take on one issue at a time? The ReThugs have been doing a fine job the past few years of hitting us from every angle possible, stepping back from one thing while winning on 3 or 4 others.

What makes you think they're exhausted? between 60-75% of them think that breaking the law is wrong, depending on which poll you look at. Most Americans support law and order type issues. Even the really selfish RePug ones - along the lines of "If I can't get away with it, why should that SOB?"

Welcome to DU btw, but I think you're selling the country short with the assertion that we are only able to tackle one thing at a time.

[lsulib]

9. This is why

Thanks for the Welcome
This is why. First of all what are we going to impeach on? This is where I suspect alot here will disagree with me but here I go. I have followed the discussions here for some time. I have seen some of the reason to impeach. As a liberal and as someone that is pretty open minded I dont buy half of them. For instane Bush was behind 911- Sorry I dont see it at all. In my view thats coming out of something like the x files. Lying about the war. Ok there might be something here. Bush lying about wmd. However here I have doubts. No one has explained to me how all these other intellegence agencies came to the same conclusion. Its sounds like stupid intelligence agencies to me. The one thing is the wiretaps. Thats a good possibility. However the problem is alot of people dont have a problem with it. I watched all those hearings and it seems that Congress would approve it anyway if he asked. So what are we left with. Perhaps on the wiretaps you can get a censure which would be good. But is a censure worth it for all the political captial we use.

[BR_Parkway]

25. Yes, using political capital would actually generate more - being

seen to stand up for something is a good thing. If the Dems can't show America that they can stand up to these lawbreakers and corrupt officials, why should America vote them to be in charge.

Would Congress change the rules? Maybe, but after the Patriot Act extension debates, they might just not.

Are the American people against the wiretapping? NO, but they are unquestionably against doing it without following the law - most of it is in how the polling questions are worded.

[Marleyb]

29. That's exactly what Swanson was saying

Pushing for impeachment is how we take back congress! It is what the clear majority of Americans want, so what are the democrats waiting for? They need to help expose the republicans that are not upholding our constitution, but instead they participate in the sham. Meanwhile they are trying to make it so third parties cannot run for congress. They are trying to legislate tyranny.

I think that most Americans favor impeachment on the illegal wiretaps, which is cut and dry...which is why I am concerned that Conyers is not introducing articles of impeachment over the illegal wiretaps...

Conyers resolution for impeachment is about Iraq not illegal wiretaps
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x393940

[FreedomAngel82]

30. WHAT ARE WE GOING TO IMPEACH ON?!

HELLO! GOING TO WAR ILLEGALY! WHAT THEY DID WITH NEW ORLEANS! CIA OUTING! NSA ILLEGAL WIRETAPPING! MY GOD! THERE'S SO MANY THINGS TO CHOOSE FROM! Do you not pay attention?!

[rucky]

8. We can multi task.

Call for impeachment and raise a platform in time to win back Congress in November.

George Bush is the trauma being put on the country, not justice.

[paineinthearse]

12. Impeachment will be only one part of the effort of restoring DEMOCRACY.

Judiciary will handle impeachment.

Government Reform will handle the numerous other scandals.

Ethics (with 108th rules and staff restored) will start investigating Delay and the 60 rethugs implicated by Abramoff.

All other committees will do their part.

Impeachment will be only one part of the effort of restoring DEMOCRACY.

[lsulib]

16. I might be cynical

but I really think the average voter has the attention span of 5 minutes, It seems to me also that the way the media works they cant handle more than one big story at a time. How are we going to get our message out that can get the Executive Branch and maybe the Senate back if its all on Impeachment. I think in the end its a risk. I come from a bias viewpoint I guess because it seems like nothing is rock solid evidence wise. THe theory is it seems once we have subpoena power Mr Conyers is going to find all the dirt. I think its a big roll of the dice myself that could backfire. If it doesnt succeed it could hurt us , where if we spend our time using the House leadership as a platform for 2008 we might get all 2 branches back again

[lsulib]

14. ok Impeach on what

I have read I think its hr 635 thats I think the main thing on Impeachment. Is that what we go on or something additional.

[paineinthearse]

26. See post 24

These are from months ago, I'm sure we could think of a few dozen more given 5 minutes.

[FreedomAngel82]

31. As in my other post to you

there's MANY things you can impeach him on. 9/11, Iraq, Afghainstan, New Orleans, NSA wiretappings, stealing elections. Take your pick!

[CornField]

10. One problem -- all the folks in Washington took an oath to uphold

the Constitution. I'm not sure about anyone else, but I plan to hold them to their word.

As a parent, I know the worse thing I can do for my children is to be inconsistent. If eating in the living room isn't allowed on Monday, it should be allowed on Saturday night either. If swearing is unacceptable in public, it should also be unacceptable at home.

Since working with politicians often feels like working with children... if their oath counts for anything, it must always count for something. George W Bush would like people to believe he took some oath to defend and protect the American people. He didn't. His oath was to defend, protect and uphold the Constitution of the United States. To turn away from the fact that he has stomped all over it like a toddler having a hissyfit, is to send the wrong message to all our politicians and to the world. We need to consistently and expressly remind all of our lawmakers, regardless of party, of their oath and their duty.

[John Q. Citizen]

39. It's all about accountability. If congress can't be convinced to hold

the executive accountable, then we the people are going to have to hold congress accountable.

[burythehatchet]

17. No.

You state "I dont buy that the people in this country want to go through any more trauma. There exhausted."

I ain't tired.
I won't rest.
My goal is well beyind impeachment.
My goal is to see him and his crime family at The Hague. In the box. Awaiting sentencing for crimes against humanity. Is that fairly clear?

[lsulib]

19. Are you serious

Do you really think thats a winning plan. No US president is going to be indicted and jailed by the Hague. THere is no stomach for that. Its an impossibilty. To be honest under current law I think its a impossibilty

[burythehatchet]

22. The greatest obstacle is a lack of imagination

Anything is possible if good men deem it so.

On edit: Yes, I am serious as anything you can imagine.

[FreedomAngel82]

32. LOL!

Wait until the people get a hold of him. He'll WISH he was in the Hague! Under current law? What the hell are you talking about? The Constitution is very clear about it and than there's the international court(s). Good grief! Are you TRYING to make up excuses and defend Bush? Please go and read your Constitution.

[Caretha]

23. Your perspective

of what the people want maybe a little narrow right now, IMHO. Also, irregardless of what the people want - The Law is The Law. Obviously living in Louisiana and experiencing the devastation in that region has become your main concern. I don't fault you for your views, if I was living and dealing daily with the aftermath of Katrina, I might have different priorities right now too.

The fact that this administration has outed a covert CIA agent, illegally wiretapped thousands of Americans, and lied to Congress and the American people about the justification to go to war in Iraq, are ALL impeachable offenses.

The consequences of not pursuing impeachment and holding accountable those who are responsible and who broke the law will open the floodgates to unimaginable future abuses of power. This cannot be tolerated. The future of each and every State of the Union is in peril, not just Louisiana.

It is time to step back and look at the big picture. The excuse that Americans "don't have the stomach for it" is entirely lame. There comes a time when one must stand up for what is truth and what is right - the Constitution and our future are at stake.

The question now is, are you a "good man" and are you up to risking what our forefathers risked and forfeited in order to give us a future?

Now is the time for all good men to come to the aid of their country!

[FreedomAngel82]

28. Oh please!

Have you not seen the polls? :eyes: Americans favor impeachment but when Clinton was going to be impeached Americans did NOT want it. Bush has had crimes and misdemanors and deserves to be tried and sentenced. The Constitution is clear on this and I don't give a damn what people think. It's what we have to do if we're going to get our country back and our Constitution back. Do you know your Constitution?

[carolinalady]

41. Welcome to DU but you are dead wrong. The Bush group

doesn't care who is in power, because they have written their own set of rules. They qualify every new law with a signing statement and they ignore laws that are already on the books. THEY NEED TO GO! You don't speak for me when you say we are exhausted. What people are tired of is the lies and corruption. It would be like a shot of adrenaline if we could cut the cancer out of the White House.

[kurth]

11. Impeachment is a powerful call to action

People know that there is no hope for impeachment unless we have control of the House.

[lsulib]

15. where will it lead

Let me ask you this. Lets think long term. Unless we really have the goods on Bush and we impeach him where does that leave us. We had Clinton impeached over BS. IF the American people think that the impeachment was all political payback in the end how does that help the Country. Have we set a dangerous precednt then. I n other words When we have A Democractic President and if the Repubs take over what to stopping them from impeaching our guy over nothing. In other words will impeachment be viewed as by the American people as something thats not a big deal and its all politics. In other words how do we call for impeachment we dont have the evidence rock solid yet.

[ClintonTyree]

20. That's the key......

to make sure, IF there are impeachment hearings, that the evidence is rock solid. As you say, the wiretapping is probably the issue that will be charged. All of his other crimes may not be impeachable. Will they be able to get enough hard evidence to warrant impeachment? Only time will tell, but it isn't looking good for bush at the moment. More and more people are coming forward with damning evidence against him. The Plame incident could be a factor as well. Fitzgerald is the key there, his findings may lead to impeachable offenses as well.
The jury is still out, so to speak. However there is a growing mountain of evidence that bush has not upheld his promise to protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. bush is taking it upon himself to do an end run around both the legislative and judicial branches of government. If there is enough evidence to impeach, then it MUST be done. As I said, it isn't a matter of revenge, it's a matter of law. No one, not even the President, is above the law.

[lsulib]

21. Lets look at History

where did the Republicans go wrong in 1998. By overreaching. The Republicans were darn lucky not to lose the HOuse that year. Why because they overreached. Now unless it comes out the NSA was used to spy on political enemies I thnk its a loser of a issue. If the the Repubs had made a deal in 1998 and plea bargoned a censure then they prob would have faired better in those elections. Thats my viewpoint because I think most Americans wanted to see Clinton punished but not impeached. THe same here. If this didnt involve NIxon like spying it goes no where and this pres is so stubborn I doubt he would take a censure. Gosh at this point I ready to move on Let Bush make his over price speeches like all ex pres do and get out of my face. THere are bigger fish to fry.

[FreedomAngel82]

33. So what?

You talk about it and you explain why. Get other people on board. Point out what he's done wrong and what the Constitution says.

[paineinthearse]

24. The Case Against *

Articles of Impeachment
The legal basis for impeachment

Notes for the Consideration of Impeachment
Six Background Notes

[FreedomAngel82]

27. Yep, good article

I've always thought/said that if a democrat was doing the same things he wouldn't have even been "selected" in 2000 but had some type of punishment.

[Astrad]

34. America's image

Whether americans have no stomach for impeachment or not might be a secondary issue. America's image in the world has been so seriously degraded by this administration. Impeachment would be one, and possibly the only, step that could salvage the country's debased reputation.

[mzmolly]

35. The premise is that Republicans will line up behind Democrats for

the impeachment of GW Bush and Cheney?

Can you imagine every Democrat in Congress standing strongly for impeachment? Can you imagine the pressure that would put on Republicans to join them? I bet you can.

I find that a ridiculous notion personally.

DEMOCRATS must be in the majority if Bush is to be impeached, any other suggestion is but a fairy tale.

[Leopolds Ghost]

36. Keep waiting... your party has been infiltrated, folks.

Interlocking directorates of upper-class political activists promoting a "global progressive agenda" are every bit as active in trying to "take back" both parties, as groups like the Deaniacs are. And they have more money to do so.

It is not in their interest to have partisan warfare. They desire a natural order in democratic politics, just like in the womb: in every set of twins, there is a dominant twin and a lesser twin. Sometimes the dominant twin strangles the lesser twin in the womb. They want to keep the lesser Democratic twin well-fed enough to survive, so as not to disturb the imbalance of power. You can't maintain a civilization if you don't keep the slaves well fed and provide them with an outlet to vent their frustrations.

"Loyal opposition" is key. How will you get power in a permanent minority if you don't move into the accomodationist camp? Louisiana is the wave of the future -- an empowered, right wing white majority (or minority) encouraging folks like Landrieu to permanently postition themselves as "only nominally a Democrat".

[autorank]

37. We breath life into the corpse of a party on life support.

OUr party has a great tradition starting with Franklin Deleno Roosevelt. FDR and his supporters knew what it mean to be the party of the people; it meant serving them and working for their benefit.

FDR and the Democrats saved the country from total demise.

Truman carried on the tradition and stood up to the vile McCarthy and others in the "culture of slander and sanity" that was the late 40's and early 50's.

Kennedy and Johnson renewed the commitment to the people and adapted the public benefits to modern times AND they took the necessary and vital step to extend civil rights to everyone de jure.

Carter finished the China deal, kept Latin America from turning on us and offered up the solution to our current problem--ruining the world with fossil fuels.

Clinton was a visionary and pragmatist, saved the country from financial ruin, kept the peace, and resisted the Republicans latest coup d'etat.

That's not 1/2 bad. Now our party debates whether or not they should impeach a president who lied us into a tragic, costly war...LIED US INTO WAR, who violates individual rights, and who is fiddling while the global environment passes the tipping point for eco catastrophes.

GET IT TOGETHER HILL DEMOCRATS. IT'S TIME TO SHOW SOME LEADERSHIP.

[understandinglife]

38. K&R. Thank you David.

Peace.

[madfloridian]

40. You should NOT make the word impeachment the major issue.

This is why I get so upset here. A few people say something and everyone yells yes, we must impeach. We must start now.

I am for it, but I don't think it should be the defining issue.