It just ain't rocket science, people! Re Abramoff;

[LynnTheDem]

Indian tribes are legally allowed to donate their monies to anyone they want...just like the rest of us humans in America. Yes that is a surprise apparently to some. :eyes:

Indian tribes donated monies to some Dems...and to some Repubs.

LEGAL.

Then along came a man named Abramoff who DEFRAUDED...RIPPED OFF...SCAMMED some Tribes.

That is ILLEGAL. And the man named Abramoff is charged with the crime he committed against these Tribes.

Now the man named Abramoff committed another crime; he took his illegally gotten monies and used it to BRIBE some Republicans and misused those monies by taking some of his Republican polis on trips and stuff.

That is ILLEGAL. And the man named Abramoff is charged with the crime he committed.

The man named Abramoff DID NOT GIVE ONE CENT to Dems. The man named Abramoff DID NOT BRIBE any Dems.

Indian Tribes' money isn't "bad"...it's what ABRAMOFF DID TO GET THEIR MONEY (fraud) and WHAT ABRAMOFF DID WITH THAT MONEY (bribery, quid pro quo).

It's that simple.

***

That some Indian Tribes, who were scammed by Abramoff, also donated funds to Dems IS LEGAL.

[rpannier]

1. For the MSM and the reich wing

the alphabet is akin to rocket science.

Remember what Mr. Burns said about Rocket Science. "Damn it, man! This isn't rocket science you know. It's brain surgery."

sorry but I have this need to get as many Simpsons quotes in as I can.

[LynnTheDem]

5. Too true.

LOL!

[Kierkegaard]

22. Personally, I prefer the term 'rocket surgery.' eom

[rock]

32. Hey! They could easily count to ten

If they needed to.

[Road Scholar]

2. It's gonna come up again and again. It's in their

Kool aid. eom

[LynnTheDem]

4. And we gotta keep putting them down with fact again and again.

Or spike their koolaid with Reality Juice.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[RC]

6. For me it is that simple.

And the original post is crystal clear. The Dems did not get even one thin illegal dime. The Crooks&liers party got it all.

[Roho]

7. great

So you've got last months meme straight. Please suggest how to combat the "directed" money to Dem's meme currently making the rounds.

[LynnTheDem]

8. 1. Prove it.

2. Abramoff himself could give money to Dems and it would still be LEGAL.

3. It's HOW Abramoff got money from the Tribes; FRAUD, and WHAT Abranoff did with the scammed money; BRIBERY, that is ILLEGAL.

4. I can tell you to pay funds to anyone I want to tell you to pay funds to. Tell me what's illegal about that.

[Roho]

14. 1....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/graphic/2006/01/18/GR2006011801026.html

2,3,4....

Legal semantics and voter perception are two different things.

We are pushing a culture of corruption meme re Abramoff, and too many other scandals to list here, but the pugs are desperately trying to use the money given (legally by tribes) to Dem's as evidence that the corruption is not just a repub problem.

It's a remarkably strategy in that it admits they are corrupt. If they are successful at painting both sides as corrupt then it takes the wind out of the "culture of corruption" campaign theme.

Have a look at the link I posted. That's where they get the "Directed" meme from.

my post above suggests we say "directed away" from Democrats.

[cali]

9. You claim:

"The Dems did not get even one thin illegal dime. The Crooks&liers party got it all."

That's what's known as opinion, not fact. Is this chiefly a Republican scandal? That much IS crystal clear from the facts. Is it WHOLLY a repub scandal? We just don't know yet whether any dems did anything wrong.

[LynnTheDem]

10. Not one Dem received one cent from Abramoff; Fact.

And that's just a fact.

[cali]

11. Absolutely. That is a fact.

What's not known, is if any of the Tribal funds Abramoff slung around Congress, caused any dem to vote in a way favorable to Abramoff's clients. Did any dem change his position after receiving contributions? Doing so wouldn't necessarily indicate guilt, but it might. Personally, having read everything I could on this, from MSM stories, to blogs, to the excellent story in The Nation, and watchdog sites, I think it's unlikely that any dems did anything illegal with regard to Abramoff. My point is simple: We just don't know yet. That is a fact.

[LynnTheDem]

12. No.

The only thing the "msm" and rightwingnuts can toss out are Ron Platt's contacts with Reid, where Reid's position was AGAINST what Abramoff wanted and REMAINED AGAINST what Abramoff wanted. And that's another fact.

We don't know that you haven't hidden WMD somewhere.

[cali]

16. That's just a piss poor comparison.

Talk about your strawmen arguments. Wow. Look, the fact is, we don't know all the facts. Can't deal with that? Tough. As I said before, the facts demonstrate that this is primarily a repuke scandal. What are those facts? The amounts of money given, the pukes in power, Abramoff's partisan background, the remaking of K Street, etc. What we don't know yet is if any dems did anything wrong.

[LynnTheDem]

18. Some people, mostly rightwingnuts, badly want to tie Dems, any Dem,

into the Abramoff scandal.

There are no Dems tied into the Abramoff scandal.

[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LynnTheDem]

25. Have a nice day!

:)

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KharmaTrain]

13. This Is An Attempt To Take Down Reid

Let's strip away what's really at the source here. Yes, Native Americans are being shat upon again by the Repugnican to cover their asses. Once again, they go to the racism card as its easy to demonize "injuns" as being dirty and underhanded...just like them 1950's TV Westerns...and try to spin it that the Repugnicans are the victims. Of course, this is just what the kool-aid bushbots want and need to hear.

But the game here is to get Harry Reid. Those AP hit pieces that have been debunked by Josh Marshall were deliberately planted to distort relationships and try the guilt by association game. Reid's kept quiet on this as I suspect by speaking up and out, he then plays into the Rovian trap of denying he beat his wife. It's up to the rest of us to see this smear for what it is and call AP and other Rovian stenographers masquerading as "journalists" on their lies, distortions and spins.

Cheers...

[LynnTheDem]

15. Indian Tribal money is not tainted. Repubs, so oft being racist,

don't understand that.

Agree re the AP lies & misreps; that had to be deliberate, especially their "headline" afrer Ron Platt corrected them.

[KharmaTrain]

17. Don't Underestimate The Racism Here

This entire tribal story drips of it...and no one in the corporate media will touch it. It hits on a bunch of wingnut stereotypes and phobias that slime like Abramoff, Reid, Norquist, Rove and others have perverted for years.

Several years ago, an Indian tribe wanted to build a bingo parlor in the area that would have brought in thousands of extra tax revenues (the school district was in desperate need). The biggest opponents? The Repugnicans? Why? Moral ground? Yeah, right...but that's what they sold at the churches...playing the Ralphie Reid "my shit don't stink" piousness. They also sold it to the others as "we don't want outsiders (codword: Injuns)" in the area. All the while, the campaign as financed by the large local horse breeding and racing industry who wanted to keep out the competition. While it wasn't said openly...the fear mongering of these "savages" invading our area was just under the surface of the opposition.

No, the tribal money isn't tainted and the report showing donations from tribes DECREASING to Democrats during the Abramoff days is all but ignored. Also, very blatantly ignored is the fact the bill the AP is trying to tarr Reid to Abramoff with...Reid votes AGAINST what Abramoff wanted...not only that, he CO-SPONSORED the bill...there was no quid pro quo. Either Reid was a better con man than Abramoff, or we're seeing a smear operation in action. Now, my curiosity is who is behind it...

[LynnTheDem]

19. Exactly; Reid was AGAINST what AbramoffCo wanted,

REMAINED AGAINST what ABramoffCo wanted.

No quid pro quo; no illegality.

We are indeed seeing a major smear campaign...but then AP has always been rightwing, so no surprise there.

Who's behind it? The rightwingnut establishment; "ok we're corrupt skanks and can't fool anyone that we're not, so let's spread the bullshit that Dems are just as corrupt and skanky but only we repubs (who allowed 911 to happen and who allowed the Iraq debacle to happen and who allowed NO to drown) that ONLY WE can protect Americans...corrupt & skanky as we are."

So they lie and misrepresent, knowing their rightwingnuttery are too stupid and too party-uber-alles to figure it out.

[KharmaTrain]

20. I Want To Find Out Whose Astroturfing This

Slowly, the blogs are starting to shed some light on what Hillary Clinton so aptly described as the Right Wing Conspiracy. It's a group of "invisible" people like Barbara Comstock, Morton Blackwell and other "black-op" operators who plant these stories that then are played up on hate radio and onto the wingnut TV talk shows....creating a controversy where it didn't exist and completing the smear...turning it from a "rumor" to "news/fact". This crap has to stop and has to be called out when it's seen and those who are directing it have to be exposed.

It's one thing if this article appeared in the Moonie times and only circulated inside the Beltway. It's another thing having this story pass across AP wires that is then used in hundreds of small papers across the country...many editing down the article to just the "juicy" parts and readers then assuming this is a real scandal rather than an astroturfed one.

If Democrats or just plain democracy is to advance, this machine must be exposed and destroyed.

Cheers...

[LynnTheDem]

23. Faux Moos; edits out standing ovation and then comments on the lack of

applause (King funeral).

That's how deeply stupid Faux Moos thinks rightwingers are.

And unfortunately...

[Roho]

27. AP has always been RW?

Another wild claim not backed up by any facts.

The choir gets this without you scolding us. Do you want us to say things like "don't trust the AP cause they've always been RW" when trying to explain this to moderates?

That's not going to convince anyone.

[LynnTheDem]

31. As you were so polite...

Flawed AP report to promote unestablished Reid/Abramoff link

AP report omitted key facts about Reid's alleged connections to Abramoff

AP left out key facts in report linking Reid, Abramoff

AP picks up White House's "terrorist surveillance program" terminology

AP reports on GOP effort to cast Boehner as break from corruption scandals ignored tobacco PAC controversy

AP, Baltimore Sun: Sheehan T-shirt message "opposite" of, less "patriotic" than Young's

AP provided misleading, incomplete backgrounder on domestic spying program

AP mischaracterized controversy surrounding NSA spying program

AP reported Democrats "tried to link Abramoff to Republicans," ignored Abramoff's actual GOP ties

AP ignored ethics questions facing Blunt, Boehner

AP, Fox failed to note U.S. attorneys supporting Patriot Act renewal were appointed by Bush

AP ignored Bush's prior opposition to Patriot Act short-term extension

AP, Fox News failed to challenge Bush claim that timeliness necessitated secret wiretapping program

AP, USA Today, Wash. Times uncritically reported Bush assertion of progress in Iraqi cities of Mosul, Najaf

WSJ, USA Today, AP ignored fact that GOP tax cuts outweigh spending cuts by $44 billion

AP failed to challenge claim that White House "supported" 9-11 Commission

AP repeated Frist "supporters' " misleading claims about conflict-of-interest allegations

Fox and AP repeated misleading Bush rhetoric on Iraq intelligence manipulation

AP headline, article disagree about judge in DeLay case

AP, USA Today overstated math scores since No Child Left Behind became law

WSJ, AP left out key information in reports on Mississippi lawsuit against insurance companies

AP failed to report why Able Danger accounts "match," or why 9-11 Commission deemed them not "historically significant"

AP falsely reported Wilson "acknowledged his wife was no longer in an undercover job" when her identity was first publicly leaked

NY Times, AP reported that Republicans were outraged by Reid reference to confidential FBI report -- but not that GOP staff made report's existence public last year

Drudge tried to smear Kerry with false AP charge that he outed CIA operative

Misquoting John Snow, AP overstated Social Security shortfall estimated in new trustees report

AP made unsupported claim about expected benefits under Bush Social Security proposal

AP article or White House press release?

AP allowed Starr to dodge blame for going after Clinton on Lewinsky

AP's Fournier falsely reported "Democratic interest group" aired "television ad" comparing Bush to Hitler

And the list goes on. Try Media Matters and Daily Howler, if that won't mess up your agenda. ;)

[PATRICK]

24. Don't forget the donations

from the tribes Abramoff pressured fell for democrats from what they had been. If special interest donations is what bothers the pure of heart, please note that is the GOP leading the way to seize all the corrupting lucre unto itself and force it away from the Democrats- who will become purer and poorer and purer and poorer- until they don't exist anymore.

And then there won't be any competition anymore. It will be a one corrupt party system charging fees for service(no do-gooder people or less than millionaires need apply). Then the lazy cynics who like to say everyone does it will be able to say ONLY the GOP does it.

Except they won't dare.

[patricia92243]

26. Exellent!! You've made a very complicated situation easy to understand.

Frankly, I didn't quite have a full grasp of it - now I do! Thanks for posting this.

Nominated.

[LynnTheDem]

30. You're welcome.

:)

[RandiFan1290]

29. The circle of filth