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land of the free Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 01:42 PM
Original message
DU: help me settle my conscience re: Iraq & Afghanistan
I’m generally a decisive and opinionated person, not one to sit on the fence when it comes to major issues. I enjoy researching topics to be well-informed on all sides of an issue before I come to a conclusion. I’ve been struggling for two years now on one political issue: what the US should do now about our wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

I ask that you please give me your advice on this topic. While my post is a bit long, I would appreciate your reading it and responding with your opinions.

First, please understand that I was vehemently against invading Iraq, and I was not even a supporter of invading Afghanistan. I don’t believe the US had the right to invade and overthrow the governments of sovereign nations. While I could understand the desire to punish Afghanistan because of 9/11 and Al Qaeda’s training camps in that country, it seems to me that there were other countries that also could be equally as guilty as supporting Al Qaeda and their members at one time or another. I believed we wanted to seem strong, and we wanted to basically strike out in our anger. Invading Afghanistan was the first step. Then, * used anti-Arab sentiment to support his dream of invading Iraq. I viewed the Iraqi war as a power grab and money making opportunity for * (not to mention that he wanted to say: “lookie Daddy, I’m gonna go finish the job that so many criticize you for not finishin’ – gettin’ Sadaam!”) Of course, we all know this weakened our ability to stabilize Afghanistan. I wish we had never taken these drastic military actions.

Once we invaded those countries, however, I believe we owe the people of those nations and the world for our transgressions. We killed so many people, we decimated their infrastructures, dismantled their governments and military. I liked how Carol Moseley Braun summed up her thoughts on Iraq, as they are similar to my thoughts regarding both countries: I was against invasion before it happened. But we did invade, and we devastated these countries. We have a moral responsibility to leave these countries at least as good as we found them. We shouldn't leave until we can clean up the mess we've made.

Here is my dilemma: I'm not sure how we can clean it up. Rather than putting energy into fighting against the justification for the wars (and the war against Iraq has been proven to be unjustifiable to most sane-minded individuals), I want to put my support behind the best course of action to help us fix the problems and get out as quickly as possible. I am confused as to our best options.

I look at plans such as the immediate withdrawal plan proposed by Rep. Murtha or the phased withdrawal plan proposed by Sen. Kerry. I can understand the urgency to get our troops out of Iraq. I am most comfortable with Kerry’s suggestion that a phased roll-out of American troops is a logical way to get the Iraqis (and in theory, the Afghans) to take control of their security and their country. The longer we’re there, the more they depend on us, and the less likely they will be to take over. And, the longer we continue to occupy them, the more we are seen as unwanted occupiers. Plus, I hate the fact that we are spending billions to reconstruct another nation while people go homeless and hungry here, and that so many brave men and women – Americans, Iraqis, Afghans and others – are dying every day for Bush’s foolish power trip.

Then, I worry about the ramifications of our leaving these countries before they are ready to be stable nations. If we leave too soon, I do believe we’ll leave these countries in the middle of civil wars. We’ve already seen that fewer and fewer Iraqi battalions are able to be self-sufficient over time. I don’t have confidence that our leaving these countries, turning the keys over to a new local military, will be safe or wise. Additionally, we’re seen as leaving these countries in worse shape than we found them in – breeding more anti-American sentiment. I am afraid we’d leave these countries much, much worse than we found them.

It’s a no-win situation. But we need an exit strategy with clear-cut phases and benchmarks (it’s astonishing to me that more Americans aren’t demanding this from their government). Since the UN is about as likely to create a multi-national security force to help stabilize these countries as Bush is likely to admit his lies, I need your opinions to help me decide the best way forward.

1. What moral responsibilities do we have to these countries?
o To stay in these countries until they are truly stable (which may be 10 or 20 more years, costing us hundreds of billions more than we’ve already spent)?
o To help train a military force only, and get out as quickly as possible?
o To help restore infrastructure to pre-war levels, train military, and get out?

2. Is an immediate pullout of Iraq (i.e. all US troops out within the next year) going to make things better or worse? What about for Afghanistan?

3. Do you support a phased roll-out of Iraq? If so, what plan, and how confident are you of its success? What about for Afghanistan?

Please give me your thoughts on the best plan forward. I just hate being indecisive about something so incredibly important.
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Skittles Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 01:50 PM
Response to Original message
1. how does a phased withdrawal help in a no-win situation?
simply put, it doesn't
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Cocoa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 01:54 PM
Response to Original message
2. here's good summary of exit plans
I'm partial to Feingold's flexible timetable, but there's lots more to choose from here:

http://www.comw.org/pda/0512exitplans.html
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LynnTheDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 01:59 PM
Response to Original message
3. If you truly care about Iraqis, then shouldn't we do what THEY WANT
Edited on Sun Feb-12-06 02:00 PM by LynnTheDem
us to do, regardless of your feelings?

The Iraqi people want us OUT.

If your mother/daughter/sister was raped, would you want the rapist to stay in the house and work out his guilty conscience?

Let's do what THE PEOPLE OF IRAQ want us to do; GET OUT. NOW.

And pay restitution.

But just GET OUT.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 02:02 PM
Response to Original message
4. Murtha never proposed an immediate pull-out
Oh, there are those that squawked that he did, but that doesn't make it true, anymore than their other lies morph into the truth.
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land of the free Donating Member (155 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 03:06 PM
Response to Reply #4
6. I read in an interview with Murtha on CBS that...
Edited on Sun Feb-12-06 03:08 PM by land of the free
he wanted all American troops out by the November 2006 elections: (http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/01/13/60minutes/main1208423.shtml)

Does Murtha think Congress is going to insist upon a major withdrawal from Iraq before election day in November?

"Sure," he says. "You’re gonna see a plan for withdrawal."

Did he clarify this statement?

I'll read more (including the link Cocoa provided above with more strategies - thanks!) for more ideas.

I'm still curious how others have managed this dilemma. What do you say to the GOP faithful who are on the fence about Iraq and Afghanistan when they ask you, "what do you want us to do, just pull out immediately and leave the region completely destabilized?"

I often say, "we'll, we're doing a poor job of stabilizing it as it is, and most experts agree things are worse on the ground now then they were even a year ago." Yet, I'm not sure if leaving immediately will make it worse or better.
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Lefty48197 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 03:09 PM
Response to Reply #6
7. "Only cowards cut and run"
It's amazing how the psychos in the right wing spin the things that happen in real life...
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patdem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Feb-12-06 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
5. I truly respect your delima as it is one of MOST HUMANS...however
Murtha says the military is broken..and even the person who came on C-Span and said the militry was not broken went on to list all the problems the military faced and my question...which I did not get to ask...was "If what you described is NOT a broke military..can you define what IS a broken military"..Any WAY..here is how I put it:

Using the Worst Case Scenario analysis..

IRAQ WAR - PULLOUT
What if THEY are right and WE are wrong…We have blow back here in America and some terrorists find their way here and do the WORST thing they have scared us with.
What if WE are right and THEY are wrong…Our Military is broken to the point that we lose more and more of our soldiers in Iraq until ultimately we pull out with a broken military and there is blow back and some terrorists find their way here and do the WORST thing they have scared us with AND we have NO MILITARY with which to fight back.

Of course this does not even touch on what 'we' did to Iraq...I say let the WAR PROFITEERS PAY RETRIBUTION! :grr:
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