At least Kerry didn't shoot anyone when HE went hunting in 04

[Armstead]

[mtnsnake]

1. Yeah, he did

He shot himself in the foot when he got talked into that silly hunting photo-op.

[Armstead]

2. Touche

Sort of like the Dukakis tank ad...


But please keep Cheney outside of any tanks.

[benEzra]

45. LOL!! (n/t)

[blm]

3. Kerry hunted for 50 yrs and can outshoot 99% of the NRA membership.

The MEDIA and people like you who pretend it was just a photo op do this nation a disservice when they fail at discussing ANYTHING using just the facts and instead repeat the usual RNC spin.

Just because he believes in sound gun laws and responsible gun ownership doesn't mean he's against guns or gun ownership by responsible citizens, but the corporate media sure had fun lying about that for the Bushboy.

[mtnsnake]

4. That photo-op of his was just about THE GOOFIEST stunt I've ever seen

backfire on a political campaign, no matter how YOU try to spin it!

[blm]

5. If you or the media would tell the truth about it, it wouldn't even BE a

problem, would it? But, since you PREFER the RNC spin and call it just a stunt, I guess you aren't interested in repeating just the FACTS - neither did Candy Crowley, but we all KNEW she was a Bushbot.

[mtnsnake]

6. Aww, I dont blame you for trying to make his silly photo-op look dignified

since you obviously can't admit that this was one of many brutal mistakes he made in a campaign that was absolutely loaded with them.

Even the imbeciles from the right wing could see right through it, how he was just trying to court votes of those who might be toting their guns along the fence.

Hey, don't get mad at me, blm. I'm not the one who blew the election for us because of mistakes like this! Just sayin it like it is.

[blm]

7. I do blame people who KNOW they are spreading untruths to promote RNC spin

First of all, it's agenda-driven, like most fabrications are. And second of all , a lie is a lie, is a lie and I have nothing BUT anger for people who lie.

[mtnsnake]

8. What untruth? Calm down, blm. Ya gotta lighten up a little

Well, you don't HAVE to lighten up if you really don't want to, but you know what I mean.

As far as the Kerry photo-op, I'm sorry, but it was pathetic (and embarrassing) seeing him standing there in the middle of the campaign all dressed up in hunting fatigues to prove that he was some big bad hunter so all the gun freaks on the fence might cast their ballots for him. lol

[blm]

9. It wouldn't LOOK pathetic if the media was HONEST with their audience

and told them how it was ROUTINE for Kerry to go on several hunting trips a season for the last 50 years.

Did you BELIEVE Bush landed that jet, too?

Oh well, those who refuse to tell the whole story don't care about the facts, do they?

Keep spewing Rove lies, and laughing at yourself. Those of us who CARE about truth and facts will stay vigilant.

[mtnsnake]

10. Sorry, but the whole thing came off as a silly stunt, IMO,

and Karl Rove had nothing to do with me seeing it that way.

In fact, every other Democrat I talked to about it the day after the silly hunting photo-op happened, all felt equally embarrassed by it. One of them, a major Democratic chairwoman in my area, even told me she thought Kerry just cemented his loss by doing it.

Hey, what can I say? You thought it was cool, and I didn't. :shrug:

Can we agree to disagree?

[blm]

12. Because the media NEVER TOLD THE TRUTH ABOUT KERRY and you are following

suit because you prefer the lie over the facts.

I will NEVER allow myself to be herded by the corporate media or their GOP masters. I BOTHER to get real facts to inform my views.

[mtnsnake]

18. Thanks

for enlightening me on what I didn't even know about myself until I had this conversation with you. Is there any charge for this favor? :)

[blm]

19. You know exactly what you're doing. You just don't care.

.

[sandnsea]

13. The campaign didn't consider people like you

I did, that's why I knew it was a mistake. Not because JK isn't a good shot or a hunter, but because I knew how it would be spun and I knew the men out there wouldn't have the balls to stand up against it.

[mtnsnake]

14. Ya got that one right!

not about the balls thing, but about them not considering people like me who KNEW that it was just about the most pathetic campaign ever run, period.

Perhaps we would have a Democratic president sitting in the WH right now, had it not been for a campaign that was completely riddled with dumb mistakes such as this one. If Kerry gets the nod to run again, and I hope to hell he doesn't, I sure hope he finds himself a better staff of campaign managers and advisors. What they let happen to that man was preposterous.

[sandnsea]

15. Of course not about the balls thing

Couldn't possibly admit that the only problem with the campaign was your inability to stand up to the bullies. No, send the womenfolk out to do that, because we're the ONLY ones who defend our candidates on a regular basis. Or maybe that was the real problem, too weak dick to stand up for a woman running a campaign, what would your buddies say about that, oooh, oooh, run, hide, cower in front of your keyboard.

[mtnsnake]

16. Hey, if you admire his campaign managers & advisors,

well....I guess no more needs to be said. You liked how they ran things and I didn't. I have no problem with that.

[blm]

17. And THAT gives you a license to spread RNC lies?

.

[mtnsnake]

21. Am I supposed to ask you, "Lies, what lies?"

Not sure what lies you're referring to, but my eyes don't lie. I saw what I saw, and digested it in a different manner than you did. I saw the hunting thing as a goofy thing, and you saw it as gospel. Hey, we're all different, eh.

[blm]

23. I saw a man who hunted for 50 yrs. You believed the RNC spin that it was a

stunt faked for the press.

[mtnsnake]

25. Ahhh, I'm trying to understand why you're so upset & I think I see why

I don't think it was a "stunt FAKED for the press". I know beyond the shadow of a doubt that Kerry is an avid hunter.

IMO, I think he FLAUNTED the hunting episode, not FAKED it. It sure looked to me like he made the most out of that opportunity with the specific mannerisms as to the way the whole thing came off. The timing of it..and the perception of it...couldn't have come off any worse than it did, slanted press or no slanted press. Whether or not it was any kind of a stunt, they should've known that that's the way it would come off, IMO.

[ProSense]

34. This makes no sense!

Any activity (hunting or biking), any time before or after this specific event, would have been treated in the same way critical way by the press. As the election neared, the press became the GOP media.

To suggest that Kerry not engage in anything that the press could misconstrue or spin against him is ridiculous. You say you think he flaunted the episode, big deal. You admit it wasn't faked, that means you considered it a genuine incident albeit for the spotlight, in your opinion. If that's the case then the point you are trying to make, that Kerry should have known better makes no sense. Whether he knew what the press was going to do or not, should not dictate what he does because he enjoys it.

[mtnsnake]

36. Sorry, but what makes no sense is

you or anyone else trying to tell me how I feel about a certain incident. To me, the goose hunting episode looked totally SILLY the first instant I saw it, due to the timing and due to the way in which it was FLAUNTED at the time. In my opinion, it was just one of many gaffs that jeopardized the campaign.

Feel free to tell me you don't think I'm right about it, but please don't try to make me think I can't feel that way because "it makes no sense". You can blame the media if you want, and I won't tell you that you shouldn't. OTOH, I do NOT blame the media for it; I blame the campaign. If you don't agree with me, fine, but don't try to tell me I can't blame his campaign for the way the hunting thing was perceived. We all have our own opinions.

[WildEyedLiberal]

39. The only reason you "feel that way"

Is because you're trying to endlessly promote Hillary, and since her record sucks, the only way you can do that is by tearing down other Democrats.

You're transparent as hell and only fooling yourself.

[ProSense]

41. The statement I responded to makes no sense.

Not meant to hurt your feelings, it just makes no sense, and for the reasons I stated. You were blaming the media when you said:

"...they should've known that that's the way it would come off, IMO."

I consider the media biased. You state that Kerry should have expected and known that the media was going to spin it the way it did, but you say you don't blame the media.

Blame the campaign for whatever you want. The statement I responded to makes no sense. Sorry if that hurts your feelings.


Edited to remove "t" from title

[mtnsnake]

42. Thanks for your considerations

as to my feelings. They weren't hurt, but am just a little dumbfounded, that's all :)

I just don't blame the media as much as I blame Kerry's managers for not looking ahead to how it would all be perceived. I know that this sounds in a way like I'm blaming the media because I'm implying that they're capabale of making it look like something it wasn't, but his handlers should've had the foresight to see that.

You said you consider the media biased, as have many others around here. I can respect that. I just don't agree. I think the media SEEMS to be biased, but only because we haven't given them enough of the right kind of stuff to take notice of. I'm not talking about Kerry's campaign right now, just in general, as in our Democratic spokespeople just haven't said the right things...or come up with the right message...to make the media stand up and take notice. Our people have been way too soft on Bush for way too long.

[JI7]

43. the way they spin the King funeral, Abramoff, Katrina,

letting the Chimp off the hook on every fucking issue.

the Abramoff issue especially with their desperation to make it into some bipartisan scandal.

and you think the media is not biased.

if the fucking Chimp snowboarded, windsurfed, etc the whore media would have spun it as a good thing about what a great athlete he was. just as they help push the lie that he is some regular guy clearing brush at that stupid ranch which he bought just shortly before he decided to run for election.

[sandnsea]

20. Yep, no balls

Just like I thought. Blame other people because you let the wingnuts use a picture to intimidate you. A freakin' picture. :rofl:

[mtnsnake]

22. How come whenever I've used the phrase "no balls"

I always got chastised by someone like you for using a sexist phrase? Just wondering.

BTW, I don't ever let any wingnuts push me around, but I see you sure do.

Nice try, though!

[sandnsea]

24. lol, oh honey, not me!!!

I only get mad when somebody calls me cupcake!!

But yeah, when you let them ridicule a legitimate hunter, you let the wingnuts push you around. No two ways about it.

[mtnsnake]

26. Cupcake?

LOL, I'll bet there's a good story behind that one.

Anyway, no, in fact I never let "them" ridicule a legitimate hunter. Like I said in a previous post, I know he's an avid hunter. I just think it was a big mistake to do so at the time he did it because of how they should've realized it would come to be perceived by the corporate media and more importantly by the swing voters.

FYI, the wingnuts never push me around, trust me on that. I spent the days following the hunting thing defending Kerry against them whenever they brought up the subject. I remember getting into flames defending him for it against some asshole rightwingers on a hockey board. Never would I say to any wingnut that I thought it was a mistake that he went hunting at the time. I only do that here, lol. To any wingnuts, I defended Kerry to the core.

Peace

[sandnsea]

29. Nope, no go

You're either part of the problem, or part of the solution. You don't help change the Democratic Party image by ridiculing the candidate, not ever, not even among friends. Very different from a suggestion or critique, in the proper place and time. When we're busy beating up on the Vice President, it's not the proper place and time to jump in with a Dem party bashing. :spank:

They drool over Bush carrying a stick. Don't you think we can muster up a little love for a guy who really does ride horses, shoot, play hockey, ski, snowboard, sailboard, and even flies helicopters and airplanes??

Nah, carrying sticks, that's a manly man!!

Admit it, Dem men are the ones who need to grow the balls and defend our candidates.

[mtnsnake]

31. That's good advice

You should bring that up everytime someone calls Hillary a neocon or a rightwing panderer.

BTW, there's a difference between "ridiculing" a candidate AFTER it's all said and done as opposed to DURING the campaign, something, I never did.

There's also something positive to be said for anyone who has the balls to criticize the campaign for real mistakes that were made, despite knowing that you're going to get jumped all over by the Kerry loyalists, lol, even though you're more critical of the campaign and not so much of the man. Anything I've ever said about Kerry the man, Kerry the Senator, and Kerry the war hero, has always been in the highest regard. His campaign, and himself as a campaigner? Well that's another story. I hope that's okay with you. :)

[sandnsea]

33. It's almost worse AFTER the campaign

Why should anybody believe anything this party has to say if we ridicule our own Presidential candidate?? It's bad for the future candidates and bad for the party overall. Do we not know that credibility is the most important thing anybody can have? Why should anybody believe anything you have to say about Hillary when you've apparently talked out both sides of your mouth on Kerry? What the hell kind of campaigner is that? You've lost before you started, tsk tsk, sad sad for Hillary. :cry:

[mtnsnake]

35. Is there some unwritten rule that says you cant criticize Kerry's campaign

or something? Sometimes I think there is.

You know what, sandnsea? It just doesn't matter what I could say to you at this point because you just wouldn't be satisfied. I could write an essay on how John Kerry was the best campaigner this country has ever seen, and how his campaign managers and advisors were on the ball and didn't do anything wrong or make one single mistake, and you still wouldn't be happy. I guess that's what I get for defending Hillary as often as I have, but at least I defended her against absolute lies, not against valid criticisms of mistakes that were made in any campaign of hers.

[sandnsea]

38. Huh? I said time and place for everything

And that critique isn't the same thing as gratuitous ridicule. Did you miss that? :shrug:

I also said I thought the hunting trip was a mistake because I know the right always bashes them and that our own Dems don't have the balls to stand up to it. So I critiqued it. You just didn't like that I put the blame where it belongs, on the rank and file Dem weanies who continue to screw up by bashing Kerry, thinking it helps their candidate when all it really does is make the whole party look like an 8th grade farting contest.

[karynnj]

44. Part of the problem is that you are being a results merchent

The campaign by and large had to struggle with being on an unprecedented uneven playing field.
- Bush could and did use national security to his advantage Many of the "orange Level" scares were based only on the intelligence that Kerry's numbers were improving
- In 2 key states (FL and Ohio, there were blatant problems that may it harder to vote in Democratic areas)
- A company that "helped" with voter registration in several states, threw out Democratic returns
- The system for overseas voting by ex-pats (extremely pro-Kerry) had major problems up to election day
- The Republican echo chamber was transformed into a far more effective system by including almost all the cable show. The affect was to give credibility. A "lie or spin" would start on the internet, go to Drudge, then to hate radio, then to the cable shows, which were still seen as unbiased (not Fox) and then the phenonmena was talked about on the networks.
- The networks pulled back on coverage. There were only 3 hours of convention coverage instead of 9 hours.
-Additionally, in past years there was always a lot of "soft" news coverage leading up to the conventions. Kerry was hurt as the coverage was on Reagan's death and Bill Clinton's book, which he selfishly refused to delay until after the election.

I seriously doubted anyone switched to Bush, because Kerry went hunting or windsurfing. It was the media who deemed that clearly brush that likely has to be planted so Bush has it to clear was themost manly activity known to man. Consider the even handedness of how they handled the candidates' bike tiding. Kerry has ridden (with excellent speed) 100+ mile charity bike rides. Bush fell off his bike. When covering it they also covered that Kerry blew a tire and fell - without any injury as equivilent. These things were trivial - but covered to ignore the fact (in a sports obsessed culture) that Kerry was 10 times the athlete Bush was.

[Name removed]

27. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mass]

37. Interestingly, this thread was started as something against Cheney

and all you can do is to make that an anti-Kerry thread.

[mtnsnake]

40. Yeah, I agree. It's almost as annoying as

all the times when I or someone else has started a thread on how to better our chances for winning the next election and someone comes on and starts screaming Diebold and hijacks the thread like what I inadvertantly did here.

BTW, do you really think that this thread, with its one line subject and no post whatsoever, was really going anywhere?

Anyway, I do apologize for accidentally hijacking it. That wasn't my intention. I just made a flippant remark and all hell broke loose. My bad.

[TayTay]

11. Kerry is an expert marksman

he took all the proper precautions to make sure he didn't hit any campaign donors. Geez, maybe the guy Cheney shot didn't sign the check or something. Maybe he was a friend of Scooters and Dick just didn't want to take a chance.

Or maybe Cheney is just a lousy shot and shouldn't have a gun at all.

[upi402]

28. Kerry is a man, Cheney is a Chickenhawk, maybe he thot the guy was

....well, I dunno, what???

[TayTay]

30. a lackey?

I mean even Gilligan's Island did a show about the 'Great White Hunter' who wanted to hunt human game. Perhaps Cheney wanted to do this as well. Only he is not such a good shot, so he decided to have the older lackeys on hand, to make the game less difficult.

Or, he is just a lousy shot.

[upi402]

32. Chickenhawks and BIRDhunting just don't mix well

for some reason...