Can anyone list the differences between Iraq and Germany/Japan?

[ButterflyBlood]

I'm sick of hearing some conservatives use the argument that as Germany and Japan turned out to be succesful and stable countries Iraq is bound to as well.

[Rick Myers]

1. They attacked first???

They waged war on a global scale? They were actual States?

[DemInDistress]

2. Iraq didn't set out on march 19 2003 to conquer the middle east

bush did..and like germany and japan both ambitious but look where it got them..gopers/freeper are barking up the wrong tree
like german and japan america will meet its match.also it took 10 yrs. to defeat the soviets with help from the usa. we're in Iraq just 35 months and its breaking apart.no country can win a major war without the support from its people and not just 40%.

[democracyindanger]

3. Two words: Marshall Plan.

Admittedly, that just covered Europe, but there was also a plan in place for Japan. These plans were prepared years in advance of the end of the war.

Also, while the German and Japanese armies surrendered, the defeated forces were used in securing their own country. In Iraq, the Iraqi Army was disbanded and the officers went into hiding--many of whom, it could be assumed, are part of the insurgency.

Speaking of the insurgency, there was no insurgency after Germany and Japan surrendered. There are stories of some German units that were supposed to fight a guerilla war after the Allies invaded, but if they existed, they did nothing.

Most importantly, the people put in charge of rebuilding Germany and Japan weren't 20-something political hacks. They were experts in their fields.

Oh yeah--and a DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENT ran the show.

[Dunvegan]

4. Excelent replies...I'd also just add that the Democratic presidents then..

...also didn't set out to rape Japan and Germany for profit (and not even for revenge.)

[MadMaddie]

5. Well I am no expert...

But comparing Germany and Japan to Iraq is comparing Apples and Oranges.

1. Both Germany and Japan were rebuilt by a strong and willing coalition of governments. In Germany, the big 3 America, Russia and Britain really worked together to plan how Germany was to be rebuilt. The leadership of the coalitions during the rebuilding of Japan and Germany was thoughtful, strategic and had long term goals in mind.

2. When Japan and Germany were rebuilt they didn't have factions like the 3 groups in Iraq the Sunnis, Shiites and the Muslims warring with each other. Japan and Germany didn't have these internal conflicts to overcome.

3. Oil is the other difference...Iraqs economy is completely dependent on the production of oil...Germany had many natural resources....Japan had other industries...

Currently...
* has alienated almost all of our allies and they are not going to donate money to a group of incompetents to mis-manage their money. They are shortsighted and only when they see dollar signs that benefit themselves or their cronies do they make their decisions.

Their decisions aren't based on whats best for Iraq and there lies the problem..

[punpirate]

6. As most suspect, the comparison is...

... superficial, at best. Both Germany and Japan had the means of production to fight intensively, and the utter destruction of that industrial capacity took the stuffing out of them and convinced them that further resistance was pointless. In both countries, there was a feeling, pre-war, of invincibility, and defeat was a great shock to the national psyche in both Germany and Japan.

From that, the United States was able to use its influence to redirect the energies of beaten people to reconstruction and redevelopment. The Marshall Plan was meant to avoid the political and economic damage caused by the Treaty of Versailles. It provided money to rebuild on long-term loan and demanded no reparations. (In fact, this was to become an early bone of contention between the US and the Soviet Union, since the Soviets wanted to see the Germans punished for their invasion and siege of Russian cities, and wanted reparations paid--the Soviets saw the Marshall Plan as a reward).

The Marshall Plan also enabled the US to make banking and trade partners out of Germany and Japan.

Contrast that with what has gone on for three years under the Bushies--the occupation of Iraq and the seizure of its assets in the first year of occupation was utterly devastating to a people who'd initially celebrated the downfall of Hussein. They saw not reconstruction, but, rather, experienced a failure of the US to quickly restore essential services and saw the US, either through neglect, malfeasance or outright intent, stealing its assets and installing a government which by its very definition was corrupt, and choosing leaders for the Iraqis who were known felons (Chalabi) and collaborators with the occupiers (Allawi). Moreover, by disbanding the army and police, the US ensured the chaos to come which would divert attention from what it was doing politically and economically. That's not a particularly good start on repairing the physical and psychic effects of war, and is the root of the problems today.

[MadMaddie]

7. That's a great explanation punpirate...

I think you hit the nail on the head!!!:hi:

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

8. The Marshall Plan was a serious effort, thoroughly planned, to fully

reconstruct great nations that were viewed as important potential allies and players on the world stage.

The Coalition Provisional Authority by contrast is a half assed, half hearted effort, which as you may have read was heavily staffed by twenty something college students. It has every appearance of being nothing more than a smokescreen cover story for massive "war profiteering" including billions of dollars which have just disappeared into thin air with no accounting.

This, along with the torture and arbitrary imprisonment of Iraqis, seems to show absolutely no serious intent in Iraq beyond looting the place and its oil, and perhaps establishing U.S. military bases there for strategic reasons.

[punpirate]

9. Funny, though, how the Marshall Plan enabled...

... some of the same things without the sort of disruption created in Iraq. Both Germany and Japan were effectively disarmed at the end of the war, and were allowed, by the terms of surrender, to develop and maintain only national police and self-defense forces of limited capability. That enabled the US to put status of forces agreements in place in both places (saying, in essence, since we've taken away your means of defense, we'll keep our forces here to protect you).

Curiously enough, that strategy was the beginning of what is now a neo-imperial spanning of the world by US troops, and it was done deliberately to contain the Soviet Union. It worked, then, because the character of the defeat of Germany and Japan was different than in Iraq, and because the plan was worked out, as you accurately point out, in detail and with some thoroughness.

The other important detail in the differences is that the US loaned money to the governments of both Germany and Japan for them to administer. This immediately put all able-bodied citizens back to work, whether it was in building new factories or clearing rubble or farming to maintain the food supply. The military occupation oversaw that effort but didn't try to micromanage it. It also helped a great deal that returning German POWs told of being treated decently and of being fed and clothed properly by US authorities (contrast that with the tales of arbitrary detention and torture by the US coming out of Iraq).

By contrast, the US created in Iraq a government which was determined to privatize the entire country, virtually at once, and seized factories to be sold off at preferential rates to US corporations and that, combined with the layoffs in the military and the police, caused exactly the opposite to happen--unemployment skyrocketed and that's when the looting began in earnest (remember the stories of armed gangs roaming the streets looking for targets of opportunity). This fit in nicely with the determination, which many thought a sop to the NRA, to let Iraqis keep automatic weapons. M'self, I think it was all intentional, to create chaos, to divert attention.

US plans for post-war Iraq were hasty, yes, but they were also cruelly calculating in their effects. Only one problem with such a strategy--they didn't tell the soldiers what they were doing, and what to expect because of it.

[wtmusic]

10. DON'T mention that Germany attacked 13 countries before

the US joined the war. They may try to run you down in their Humvee.

[Spider Jerusalem]

11. Let's see:

Germany was the number two industrial nation on the planet at the time, with a developed infrastructure (which the post-WWII Marshall Plan funds helped rebuild) and an educated population; Japan had been industrialising since the late 1800's, and their industry was further developed by American assistance post-WWII. So Germany and Japan both had something Iraq lacks: the economic basis to support a successful and educated middle class (which is the real foundation of long-term stability and democracy).

Iraq lacks this economic basis; its only significant economic sector is in petroleum and related industries, which were controlled by Saddam's government until fairly recently, and are now likely to be controlled by the new government--which shows signs of developing into an Iran-style Shi'a fundamentalist theocracy (which is hardly a political state of affairs conducive to stable democratic government).

[sinkingfeeling]

12. I don't think Germany and Japan were rebuilt with corrupt,

war-profiteering pals of the US administration. And I don't recall anybody throwing away $8 billion without any accountability either.

[Kellanved]

14. No, they had Nazis to do that

The civil authorities of Nazi Germany were effectively left in place, after only superficial re-education. Judges, politicians, civil servants - they all were the only people trained to do their jobs and thus were allowed to continue under new management.

It took Germany 20 years to even start with getting rid of that heritage, a process still going on today; still, it was the only viable option.

[NNN0LHI]

13. Germany and Japan declared war on us. We are just murdering Iraqis n/t