If you believe Dems are just as corrupt as Republicans, explain yourself.

[blm]

Please. And use real records.

The idea that 79% of the public says that both parties are equally corrupt (MSNBC reporting) means those of you on the left who always make that claim here at DU have done a VERY GOOD JOB of making that point with the corporate media.

I wonder how that happened?

Please explain.

[Vincardog]

1. The GOP's defense has become "But they did it first" I want to see

if that works the next time I am up for Armed Robbery. "But judge there have been LOTS of armed robbers before me".

BSBSBSBSBSBSBSBSSBSBSBSBSBSB

[sendero]

33. I agree...

....... the Republicans act like 3rd graders when they are caught. It is so pathetic, you wonder why more people don't snap to the fact that they are a bunch of immature whiners, exactly what they accuse everyone else of being :)

[Vincardog]

42. Exactly they believe in accusing their opponents of their criminal acts

You know exactly what they are up to by what they accuse the Democrats of.

[EST]

2. Without quoting someone else's notions--

My opinion holds that the corruption that may show up in democratic ranks is not nearly so widespread nor does it rise to the level of those whose life's work revolves around disenfranchising citizens and empowering gluttony and greed.
My private conceit suggests that any corrupt democrat is actually hiding out, to deflect observation and suspicion, and is actually a hard hearted republican mole.

[Name removed]

64. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[reprehensor]

3. blm

Is this information from a poll?

Do you have a link?

[blm]

4. It was just read a short time ago on MSNBC. They are using it after their

coverage of Abramoff. It's the old, They're ALL dirty ploy.

[K-W]

5. Who believes this exactly?

AFAIK this is entirely a Republican talking point.

[blm]

9. MSNBC is reporting 79% polled say it's both equally. There have been some

folks her at DU who regularly make the same point.

I really want to hear their explanation, and how their POV has become so mainstream - seems like the only meme that becomes mainstream is one sold by the GOP.

[K-W]

11. Right, this is a right wing meme. Not a liberal/progressive meme.

Only a right winger would argue that the Democratic party was as corrupt as the Republican party. That meme only serves to downplay and normalize the tremendous corruption of the republican party.

No one on the left wants to minimize what the Republican party is and does, they simply want to expose that the Democratic party is itself very corrupt and that both the Republican and Democratic parties are products and componants of an electoral system that doesnt provide real reprsentation. The differences between the parties are well known, they are what campaigns and news stories are made of, what people dont realize is how narrow a range of opinion is embodied in the two major parties.

The view you mentioned is mainsteam because it is a right wing rationalization of corruption. If everyone in government is corrupt its not so bad that Republicans keep getting caught disobyeing the law.

[zalinda]

6. Ralph Nader made it popular

See, there is no difference between George Bush and Al Gore. No difference between dems or repubs.
:sarcasm:


zalinda

[KittyWampus]

26. zzzzzzzzzzzzing!

[Warpy]

7. That's because the Democrats lost their way

about 30 years ago and took working class economic issues off the table. Most people (rightly, alas) see the Democratic leadership solidly in the same corporate pockets the GOP is.

That needs to change if the party wants to get power and hold it.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

8. The system is corrupt the politicians are just playing the game.

Some make it so obvious that they get caught. Some don't. There are very few who aren't on the take. The public is wising up.

[Selteri]

19. I think a fair amount of Democrats are corrupt...

Like Kennedy, Lieberman and some others... BUT the Republicans have proven they are much much worse...

I think we need to fix the system and purge thr trash refardless of the letter after their name.

[dailykoff]

41. How is Kennedy corrupt?

I don't live in MA so maybe I missed something.

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dailykoff]

67. I see.

This is very interesting, thanks. A little hard to believe though. I don't suppose you have a link?

And welcome to the forum. :)

[Name removed]

72. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[BushOut06]

10. There was Dan Rostenkowski a few years back...

Some people may look at that and say "See, there are bad Democrats also".

There are always going to be a few bad apples here and there. But this goes far beyond the occasional congressman taking bribes, kickbacks, etc. This is an entire culture of corruption that's been cultivated by the GOP, and their associations with Big Business.

[dailykoff]

40. Postage stamps, yeah that was treason.

They're all crooks so let's just vote for the guys who'll lower our taxes. :sarcasm:

[Xenotime]

12. Just look at the polls...

it says it all.

[FloridaPat]

13. I think both parties are in the pocket of corporations. The GOP are

just in more pockets with more money.

1. How did the Bankruptcy Reform bill get passed? It was written by the credit card companies to helps them.
2. At the end of 2004, congress extended the federal finance charge laws that companies can follow and not those crummy state laws that limit interest rates to 10%.
3. Why has nothing been done to stop the no-bid contracts?
4. The passage of perscription drug plan for medicare - great boon to the drug companies.
5. Passage of the tax cuts - how are the repubs getting these through congress?

There are tons of laws that help the corporations that have been passed and very few laws to help the common people. The two parties may not be equal at doing illegal things, but they are certainly guilty of selling out the US government for money and power.

[earth mom]

14. Excellent Post!

:applause:

[KittyWampus]

27. Dems Tried To Get Amendments To Bankruptcy Bill, you ignore that

Dems have held hearings on their own about corrupt no bid contracts, you ginroe that.

Every single issue, you ignore everything the Democrats did.

[Cults4Bush]

36. The Dems are the lesser of two evils, and that is the goddess honest

truth.

Thats why so many of the blind faithing pukes around here threaten Indpendents and Greens to vote Dem or else. Which Im sure makes our enemies across the aisle happy as shit, keep chasing off those potential Dem votes.

If you want to believe in the purity of this Party go on with your bad self, but really how are those rose colored glasses?

You ignore party weakness at your own peril because that is exactly what the enemies of the party will use as a wedge when no other issues work. That is what they always do.

[FloridaPat]

45. But the bills went through. So they tried. They still have enough

power to stop the bills. They could have gone to the public screaming. They could have gone non-stop on the talk shows pointing out how the taxpayers are getting screwed by these bills.

And one interesting item: Howard Dean was ahead of the Democratic possibilities. He spoke out about how the drug companies were taking too much advantage of congress. Then all of a sudden the MSM came out against against Dean. Kerry got in as "someone who could beat *".

[LSK]

38. Bankruptcy roll call vote: please explain the "D"'s in the NAY section

http://www.senate.gov/legislative/LIS/roll_call_lists/roll_call_vote_cfm.cfm?congress=109&session=1&vote=00044

The FACT is that the Democrats simply do not have the votes. Dont fucking go blaming the Bankruptcy bill or any similar issues on Democrats.

[FloridaPat]

46. 18 voted for the bill. Our congress people can support us or

support the corporations. Credit card companies can still charge anything they want. But going bankrupt is harder for the average American. They're either for us or against us - and us is We the People.

I'm not blaming the Democrats for the passing of these bills. I'm blaming them for voting on the bills and for not really trying to stop them.

[ieoeja]

56. Explanation: (D) beats (G)

(R) 100%-Yea, 0%-Nay
(I) 100%-Yea
(D) 41%-Yea, 57%-Nay, 2%-Not Voting

If you do not see a difference between (D) and (R) in this voting, you should consider visiting an eye doctor. And this on a bill that applies a means test to voiding credit card debt when declaring bankruptcy, i.e. if your capital exceeds your credit card debt, you will still be required to pay your credit card debt.

While the Green position on this would have to either be:

a. strongly in favor of this law, or
b. completely inconsistent between this law and their other views, e.g. $220k maximum wage, taxes on accumulated wealth (i.e. capital), etc. Why would they want to tax accumulated wealth, but then turn around and exempt accumulated wealth from being considered in bankruptcy?

[Exiled in America]

54. This post is very well-balanced - well said.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

55. Damn Straight!

The Democratic "leadership" has sold me out so many times my head is in the "permaspin" mode. Notwithstanding the fact that the best of them have been shot or had untimely accidents at the height of their power potential.

[oregonindy]

15. power tends to corrupt and absolute power corrupts absolutely.....

The historical activities of the democratic party are well known. We have to step up as citizens to hold all polititians to the rule of law and create an open sourced government that removes scum as soon as they show their heads.

[Selteri]

20. I agree, we need to FORCE a transparent government, no more secrets NT

[Walt Starr]

16. I believe it is extermely difficult to rise to any level of political

power without being tainted by corruption.

[theboss]

23. Unless you are a megalomillionaire

And even then, you (or someone in your family, Mr. Kennedy and Mr. Rockefeller) was probably corrupt as all get out.

For example, I don't think Corzine has been corrupt as a politician. But...wow...is his past as a businessman interesting.

[earth mom]

17. Oh so let's blame the messenger, not the message.

:eyes:

Yeah, I've been one of "those" evil liberals who say they are all corrupt. If they weren't we would all be living better lives PERIOD. But we ARE NOT. Taxes that come from the blood sweat and tears of the middle class have been wasted on total bullsh*t for years now. Wasted by both sides of the fence.

In it beyond obvious that few of the fat cats in DC could care less if we have jobs with decent pay, health care, bankruptcy protection and so on and so forth.

If you think our representation is so great, why don't YOU SHOW what good things our elected officials-WHO WORK FOR US, MIND YOU-have done that benefits the middle class or poor?!

I sincerely doubt you will find ANYTHING of substance.

[Armstead]

18. Democrats are not as corrupt, but they condone a corrupt system

The whole political system has been corrupted. The Democrats unfortunately have supported the building of that corruption, instead of challenging it and advocating for real reform all along.

For example, it is corrupt that the broadcast media makes it necesary for political candidates to raise millions of dollars just to get heard by the public ON THE PUBLIC AIRWAVES.

We need real reform to end such distortions that corrupt the entire poltical system. The democrats should have solidly backed such reforms a long time ago. But they are in the pockets of the corporate media as much as anyone.

That's one example of how the whole system has been corrupted.

[Yollam]

21. I don't think both parties are EQUALLY corrupt, however...

...the democratic party is chock full of elected officeholders who owe their soul to their corporate contributors. And excellent example would be Joe Biden, who has taken hundreds of thousands from MBNA...

http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00001669&cycle=2000
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00001669&cycle=2002
http://www.opensecrets.org/politicians/contrib.asp?CID=N00001669&cycle=2004


...and then voted for the anti-worker, anti-human bankruptcy "reform" law that was written by MBNA and other big lenders.

His son, Hunter, was also conveniently given a 6-figure job with MBNA to be kept on retainer (IE, do next to nothing).


It's REALLY easy to find examples of corrupt, compromised democrats, not to mention GOP/DLC infiltrators.


What's hard is finding a republican who ISN'T corrupt. Now you're talking needle in a haystack.

[hiaasenrocks]

34. I don't think they are equally corrupt.

Generally the party in power is more corrupt because they're in charge and can get more done, so they're more susceptible to such things. So, right now, that would be the GOP.

I vote Democrat 99% of the time because I agree with them on more issues. Of course, you have to pick the side that is going to do more of what you would like to see. But I don't know why anyone would trust politicians (of any persuasion) any more than they absolutely have to.

[donheld]

57. "elected officeholders who owe their soul to their corporate contributors"

That's a fact whether anyone wants to believe it or not.

[theboss]

22. As corrupt? No....Corrupt? Yes

First of all, it's much easier to be corrupt when you are in power. In the late 80s and early 90s, the Democrats on Capitol Hill were a pretty disgusting bunch.

However, it took the Democrats forty years to get that oily. It's taken the Republicans 10.

[Ksec]

24. There ARE a few corrupt Dems and They should be singled out

The Liebermans and the bastards who vote for these Bankruptcy bills, etc. We need to isolate these politicians who vote like this. I know there are lists but we need to bring these deadweight lists out in the light . Make these people pay for these insane votes they make. I suggest everyone reading this post pick up a subscription to The Nation. They are championing a cause to get turncoats like Lieberman out of office. Its time for these rats to crawl away from the power that corrupted their reasoning abilities away.

[BushOut06]

25. Hmmm, I was basically called a freeper for suggesting this before

Fact is, not all Democrats are alike. Just because we want to get certain Dems out of office doesn't mean we want to weaken the Democratic party - just the opposite!

[Ksec]

30. We get these Dems out in the primary races

Replace them with real Dems.

[BushOut06]

31. exactly

[LSK]

32. kinda hard when the DCCC and DLC promotes those "Dems" n/t

[cascadiance]

60. Well I believe there are far more corrupt Rethugs than corrupt Dems...

... BUT... I want to see the courts and other parts of the system to go after the corrupt Dems with just as much effort in each case as they go after the Republicans. If we try to just go after Republicans, then we become no better than they are (even if they are by far the more corrupt party at this point).

If we want to truely fix the system and help promote "clean elections" nationally or something similar soon, we need to clean our own house just as much as we want to clean theirs. We need to find ways to reward and enable those that can work effectively and not get "corrupted" once we take away the need for campaign finance fundraising, etc. that so many probably otherwise decent people that are congress people have to do these days.

[LSK]

28. the standard explaination is "Clinton did it"

I have had arguments with people saying both parties are corrupt and it always comes back to Clinton.

:banghead:

[Vidar]

29. Robert Kennedy Jr. said 90 % of republicans are corrupt but only 75%

of democrats. That sounds about right to me.

[Karmadillo]

52. 75% of Democrats corrupt? That's awful. I hope someone can point out why

he's wrong.

[cascadiance]

61. You know if it is that high, then there might be a silver lining to this..

Then it might be easier to get more of a universal and non-partisan opinion in the U.S. voting electorate that the system is broken and needs major fixing to prevent what is now legitimized bribery in the way our campaign financing laws work now.

If people on both sides of the aisle see that this is a universal problem that is systemic and corrupts people in both parties that might not otherwise be corrupted if the system were fixed, that will lead to a huge grassroots movement to change the system and not just apply bandaid solutions (like the watered-down Feingold/McCain campaign financing "reform" was).

If the Dems then take the leadership and try to clean up both sides and come up with substantive ways to fix the system itself, they WILL be the majority party again. No doubt in my mind! I really believe that is ultimately what the American public wants done

[mattclearing]

35. I was of the impression that Dems may have been corrupt in the past,

when they held the congressional majority. Accusations of waste and possible corruption seemed to be a big part of how Republicans took the majorities in 94.

However, I've always thought that Republicans were and are always more corrupt on balance than Democrats. It's really not even close. Republicans are the party of big business for a reason, after all.

[dailykoff]

51. Well, there's corrupt, and then there's corrupt.

Dem "corruption" tends to run to nepotism, construction graft, campaigning on the federal dime, and that kind of thing. Worrisome, but basically small potatoes.

GOP corruption tends to run to useless multi-billion dollar weapon systems, elective wars, election fraud, major corporate malfeasance, signing away public lands, disappearing trillions, and much worse (see 9-11 forum). Treason, in other words.

[mattclearing]

68. Agreed.

[Redstone]

37. Uh, I don't think that if people express an opinion here, it actually

"makes a point with the corporate media."

You ask people for "real records," then make such a logic-defying accusation?

Redstone

[Lorien]

73. That would kind of fly in the face of the premise that the media

pays no heed whatsoever to the left, now wouldn't it?

Honestly, the entire notion that we should NEVER EVER oppose those with a (D) behind their name for any reason is absurd and naive. Yes we need to be united-on a clear agenda, and with those who honestly serve our party and promote that agenda. Just having someone in office with a (D) behind their name who acts as a GOP/ megacorp enabler on most issues simply isn't somebody we should all be forced to "settle" for. Only if and when we demand and expect better will we return to power.

[sandnsea]

39. Yup

Republicans are always connected up in this crap, since forever. Way back. Teapot Dome back. I don't recall a Democrat ever being caught up in the kind of corruption that just permeates every single person the way Republicans are. Then they turn around and try to excuse themselves with their blame the Democrat tactics and our stupid ass "grassroots" lap it right up and then blame the Democrats for not burying Republicans over scandals. It's quite a bit of insanity.

[ladjf]

43. During the 40+ years that the Dems were in power, America

was never a fascist dictatorship.

[blm]

48. You would think that point would be painfully obvious by now - yet the

media pushes the exact opposite perception to benefit the GOP.

[Retired AF Dem]

74. NO

We just placed people in camps, and for many of those years still had segregation.

[dailykoff]

44. This is like the "special interests" line

that says all politicians are captives of special interests and thus equally corrupt.

Which "special interests" exactly?

Dems: labor and teachers' unions.
GOP: banks and oil companies.

Big difference!

[KoKo]

47. Woo Hoo...........get lost.........

in the old debate here. :D

[dailykoff]

49. This is just part of the GOP campaign

to peel away swing voters. Beat it into their heads that "both parties are corrupt," and they'll either stay home on election day or vote for the last stupid commercial they saw showing some right wing criminial kissing a baby.

[LynneSin]

50. If you're elected you've probably taken money from Corporations

however that doesn't necessarily make someone a bad candidate.

:D

[Exiled in America]

53. Its an oversimplification of a complicated reality:

Anyone who denies there is corruption on both sides of the isle is either very deluded or very deceitful. But that's not the issue - we all know there are examples of corruption on both sides. The issue is whether or not its fair to say there is an "equal" amount of corruption. Is corruption the rule in the Democratic party, or the exception?

When it comes down to money, I think money is a very corrupting influence on politics across both isles. I think we need major, major reform when it comes to campaign finance, lobbying and monetary contributions and other forms of influence peddling.

But there is a much more insidious and clandestine kind of corruption that seems to have found a very deep home amounts the neoconservative republican party of the present day. The kind of corruption that manipulates elections, intimidates and threatens opposition, create and funds slander machines, and on and on and on. They have clearly demonstrated a deeper propensity for the most outrageous of unethical behavior that has become the rule rather than the exception. I think people would be hard pressed to claim that democrats are the same in this regard.

So, if you want to talk about the effect of the corporo-fascist take over of american government - that pretty must spans the isles in washington. There are as many beltway democrats selling out ordinary americans for special corporate interests as there are Republicans in washington today. But in terms of some of the other kinds of egregious and criminal corruption that seems to be the hallmark of neocons, no - democrats do not seem to have the same kind of track record in that regard.

[leftofthedial]

58. they are less blatant, less over the top and less in-your-face

but they still take corporate bribes and represent the same corporate interests that the repukes do.

Example: Joe Biden--since 2001, 98.1% of his campaign contributions have come from corporations and zip nada nothing from labor.

Any wonder he helped foist the new bankruptcy laws on us (protecting his financial services bosses).

[bpilgrim]

59. how many voted for the IWR, PATRIOT ACT, OUTSOURCING

for starters, though the reTHUGs definitely are better at it :evilgrin:

peace

[noiretextatique]

62. the media pays zero attention to the left

except to use it as a wedge or a distraction...talk about corruption! once again, the media is doing its part to create a distraction, so why help them?

[adigal]

63. If many Dems are not in the pockets of big business

then why are the corporations doing so well, as the average income goes down every year?? I truly believe that most people in Congress are concerned with numero uno, preserving their seats, and if they can help us while doing that, so be it. If not, so be that too.

Examples:
Reid, Biden - bankruptcy bill
Landrieu - ANWR, every single time. Oil above environment
Hillary - never saw a war she didn't love

Want some more??

[Realityhack]

65. IMO... they are definately both corupt...but...

As a generality they are both corupt groups. Most members of both parties are courupt...

But...

I would not say they are equaly courupt. One because that is astronomicaly unlikely unless you have only two grades (courupt and not corupt) which is a throughly retarded way to look at the world. and Two because in my experience I see more coruption from the republicans and more good from the democrats.

[CornField]

69. As a person, I think it would be very difficult

to look at the $50 donation of a consitutuent and then look over at the $1,000 donation from a lobbyist and not make a distinction.

When I was young, we lived on a ranch out in the country. Still, my father made a point of locking our vehicles and out-buildings every night. It never made much sense to me so one night I asked him why he did it. He replied, "Just keeps an honest man honest."

With that in mind, I think our current system of lobby monies, foundation monies, PACs and so-forth tends to leave the doors of democracy open and does little to keep the honest men and women we sent to D.C. honest.

Edited to add one more thing: I know many people who do not donate to their politicians, especially state and federal ones, for this very reason -- they feel their contribution of $10-$100 will be a big deal to them, but just a penny to the lawmaker.

[Retired AF Dem]

70. Chicago poltics?

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

75. Lord Acton's full quotation:

"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely." Bush & Co have come perilously close to absolute power.

What Democratic scandals compare to recent Republican ones? Nixon, Reagan, Bush & Bush.

[rman]

76. Corruption: the one thing republicans are better at.