Holocaust Survivor: "I've Seen This Before"

[JFN1]

After reading Paul Craig Roberts article, "A Criminal Administration," I thought about the article below, and how it applies to our current Constitutional crisis. The article details the current crisis through the eyes of a Holocaust survivor, and what he sees is indeed chilling:

One of our neighbors is moving. I've been in this neighborhood for about six years now, but didn't really know them very well at all - just waves and nods, mostly.

So I heard the moving van pull up this morning. When I got home this evening I happened to spy my neighbor (he's like 85 years old - I don't know exactly, but he's old, talks and moves very slowly) standing on the sidewalk next to the van. I walked over and shook his hand, and we started talking. I asked him where he was moving, and he said, "Back to Germany."

I had been stationed in Germany for two years while in the military, so I lit up, and commented about how beautiful the country was, and inquired if he was going back because he missed it.

"No," he answered me. "I'm going back because I've seen this before." He then commenced to explain that when he was a kid, he watched with his family in fear as Hitler's government committed atrocity after atrocity, and no one was willing to say anything. He said the news refused to question the government, and the ones who did were not in the newspaper business much longer. He said good neighbors, people he had known all his life, turned against his family and other Jews, grabbing on to the hate and superiority "as if they were starved for it" (his words).

He said he was too old to see it happen right in front of his eyes again, and too old to do anything about it, so he was taking his family back to Europe on Thursday where they would be safe from George W. Bush and his neocons. He seemed resolute, but troubled, nonetheless, as if being too young on one end and too old on the other to fight what he saw happening was wearing on him.

I gotta tell you - it was chilling. I let him talk, and the whole time, my gut was churning, like I had mutated butterflies in my stomach. When he was finished, he shook my hand, gripping it really hard, until his knuckles turned white and he was shaking. He looked me in the eyes, hard, and said, "I will pray for your family and your country." He let go of my hand and hobbled away.

I have related this event to you in the hopes it will serve as a cautionary anecdote about the state of our Union, and to illustrate the path we Americans are being led down by a group of fanatics bent on global economic and military dominion. When a man who survived the fruits of fascism decides its time to leave THIS country because he's seeing the same patterns that led to the Holocaust and other Nazi horrors beginning to form here, it is time for us to recognize the underlying evil inherent in the actions of those who claim they work for all Americans, and for all mankind. And it is incumbent upon all Americans, Red and Blue, Republican and Democrat, to stop them.

Article by Joey Picador, originally posted at Justice For None

[Greeby]

1. It's worse than the old man thinks

At least the Third Reich couldn't nuke the entire world several times over :scared:

[VaYallaDawg]

4. Interesting -- and chilling -- thanks for posting this. n/t

[Lisa]

35. this lot could just skip right to the Gotterdammerung , couldn't they

At the end of the war, Hitler ordered his troops to burn Germany in retribution ... but some of the extremists in Bush's base actually believe that the "end times" are a good thing, so they can get to heaven!

[Cronus Protagonist]

38. True. And Europe is expendible to the US

They don't call it a "war theater" for nothing. I hope he's OK in Germany, but I suspect he may just be swapping the frying pan for the fire.

Educate a Freeper Today!
Buttons, Stickers and Fridge Magnets made in America for brainy people
http://brainbuttons.com/home.asp?stashid=13

[Media_Lies_Daily]

107. Absolutely correct. They've already declared the right of preemptive.....

...nuclear strike. If I were living in Iran I would be very nervous about the stated intentions of the NeoCon Junta.

[MsKandice01]

2. Wow...K&R

Chilling indeed.

[bpilgrim]

99. .

[Burma Jones]

3. Some of my In-Laws, Holocaust escapees

have been moving their assets out of the USA and are readying themselves to move to Isreal. This is because they too see similarities between the Nazis and the current Administration.

[enigma000]

11. In Israel the threat is Iran

Its not a good time for Jews, I'm afraid (or anyone else too....)

The Iranian President wants to wipe Israel "off the map", Europe has a growing Muslim population, heck, even Chavez in Venezuela has been making anti-Semitic comments. And as for America, well.....

[Cults4Bush]

27. I dont trust that translation at all of Chavez.

at all... and I have very good reasons not to.

[Codeine]

52. Baloney

If somebody had a better or different ranslation it would be all over the place. It's not as though there is a dearth of Spanish-speaking individuals to help out. I'm confident he said just what is reported.

In fact, based on the PDF of his speech in Spanish that I filtered through Babelfish for you it is quite clear:

"The world has for all, then, but it is that minorities, the descendants of such who crucificaron to Christ, the descendants of such which they threw to Bolivar of here and also crucificaron it to their way in Santa Marta, back in Colombia. A minority was appropriated the wealth of the world, a minority was appropriated gold of the planet, the silver, minerals, waters, good earth, petroleum, the wealth, then, and have concentrated the wealth in few hands: less than the ten percent of the population of the world..."

Who else do you think he means when he refers to "those who crucified Christ?"

The URL for the speech from the Venezuelan government's website:


www.gobiernoenlinea.gob.ve/docMgr/sharedfiles/Chavez_visita_Centro_Manantial_de_los_suenos24122005.pdf

[Cults4Bush]

56. Im not and I have seen other translations and it is at best ambigous.

However dont let me stop the Socialism hatefest that is being instigated all over the place. In case you dont realize every newspaper and gov official has to officially hate Chavez, he is after all nice to Castro and that in turn make shim as bad as Saddam fro some folks around here.

Better yet why dont you did what I did and have a Spanish friend interpet it for you. My puerto Rican neighbor read it off to me and I compared what he was saying to a report I was reading, we both had a grand laugh about what was totally expected more media BS and hogwash.

[Codeine]

57. I don't need a Spanish friend to read it

I can read it myself just fine and dandy. Read my edit and you'll see what it looks like through Babelfish so you won't accuse me of mistranslating it. Who do you think he's referring to when he mentions "those who crucified Christ?" And I doubt your Puerto Rican neighbor actually read 29 pages of speechifying to you...

[Cults4Bush]

74. Here try this, My friend is actually about 20 miles away so I asked

another friend who has a superb understanding of languages and is someone I trust on these kinds of issues. I make no pretense in being a professional on translation issues but I do know that it would be an absurdly stunning thing for Chavez to come out and say something that is completely and irrevocably anti-semitic. I also know that the gist and context of what he was saying had to do with oppressed majorities under the tyranny of a minority. You are not suggesting that is bad are you, you wouldn't be trying to frame this in any way so as to enable Chavbez detractors? I mean you wouldn't have some sort of agenda on this particular issue would you? Seriously you seem to be rather vehement about something that is not such cold hard fact.

I also find it interesting that you are trying to color me a liar with that 29 pages strawman BS you threw up there. You know damn well (and therefore were being purposefully obtuse) that he didn't need to read me the whole thing.

Here is what another friend of mine said, again I offer this up as I will not fake like I know something about the intricacies and nuances of the language and translation. FWIW its not like Im the only one out here on the internet saying this.

-----

"Spanish:
http://www.gobiernoenlinea.gob.ve/docMgr/sharedfiles/Chavez_visita_Centro_Manantial_de_los_suenos24122005.pdf
English translation: http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Ch%C3%A1vez_visits_%22Fountain_of_Dreams%22_Self-Development_Centre
I've checked this and it's largely accurate around the relevant passage, except "one minority" should be "a minority" and the connotation in Spanish is more in line with "the few" than the notion of an ethnic minority.

Anyway, "those who crucified Christ" are said to be "the same who crucified Simon Bolivar" (figuratively), as the second appears in an appositive phrase (it could be argued that it's an enumeration without conjunctions). Jews didn't interfere with Bolivar's revolution against Spain. Chavez is referring to "the rich."

In case it's claimed that "Jews and those who drove out Bolivar" are what he referred to, you need to add more things to it. The first is that he cites general wealth distribution statistics. This does not target ethnic groups, and if it did, it wouldn't be Jews, but Anglo-Americans. The second is that he refers to exploitation of Latin American countries on behalf of US corporations.

What it boils down to is that the mention of the deicide with "those who crucified Christ" is very easily misrepresented, but very clear from context that it doesn't refer to Jews. Pagan Romans, easily-influenced mobs of people a.k.a. lynch mobs, and others are all typically referred to as such in addition to the generic "rich" a.k.a. the money-changers in the temple, that Chavez clearly had in mind."

[bpilgrim]

79. thanks for sharing Cults4Bush

it's what makes DU the MOST popular liberal political discussion board online :toast:

peace

[Cults4Bush]

105. Thank you for supporting.

It is quite nice to have someone else agree.

...and all your Bable posts are cracking me up! Cheers!

[bpilgrim]

123. no worries

when truth seekers unite we are unbeatable :bounce:

:hi:

peace

[Codeine]

85. I ain't buyin' it.

"Those who crucified Christ" has *always* been code for Jews, the watchword and countersign of the anti-Semite. Trying to pretend otherwise is just ridiculous.

[bpilgrim]

88. but your buying 'Babelfish'?

what's up with that? gotta link to something other than that?

tia :toast:

peace

[druidity33]

100. ask Siouxsie...

see if she agrees...
i don't.
Maybe you have some other instance where Chavez was derogatory towards Jews? In a speech somewhere else too maybe? Being by birth jewish, i have seen anti-semitism firsthand... it normally resides in people who cannot help but be hateful, they do not miss an opportunity to denigrate. Listen to the hope in his voice and the genuine desire to help the needy among his people. As a pagan now, i rarely find myself saying this of anyone... but Chavez is the very picture of Christian charity.
So, Codeine, you may not be buying it, but that's because it's not really on the shelf.
BTW, i asked 10 people of the regular variety, "who crucified Christ"... 9 answered the Romans and 1 answered the Assyrians (not sure about that one)
Question for you... Would you rather have GWB or HC as your president?


...little bathroom stickers...

[bpilgrim]

102. you know the MO of these Sharon lovers

catapult the propaganda far and wide.

well, that BS ain't gonna fly on DU :evilgrin:

peace

[Cults4Bush]

106. Very similar you and I!

Lots of prior Jews into paganism these days... and Budhists as well (Ju-Bu).

Anyones he'll probably just call us self hating Jews, since that is the hardliner meme most favored these days for people like us.

Peace, and love your trees!

[Cults4Bush]

104. Ahhh now we get to the crux of the matter.

It is obvious that you apparently never even liked Chavez,it is also apparent that you understand language even less than I do, it is even further apparent that anyoen who uses a turn of phrase even within properly justified contaxt is an anti-semite? Do you work for AIPAC? Sit on Sharons lap much? Nudnik at all?

Those who crucified Christ in this context is completely approriate but I guess you support the tyranny of the minority. Good on ya you'll do well in the New American Century.

So yeah your post was full of shit. You didnt answer to any of my questions even though I answered yours fully and succinctly. You don't even know how to return the courtesy. Therefore you are not worthy of further debate.

I can't believe the neocons are hiring 17 year olds nowadays to push the kind of crap you just did, and don't ever try to insinuate Im a liar again (especially with that kind of flimsy strawman).

...and on edit: I am Jewish (though not practicing), I find people like you who write posts like that a hindrance and thorn of the side of Progressive Jewish Liberals. Consider me insulted and extremely pissed.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

112. Of course YOU'RE not buying it! Could we really expect any better....

...from a poster supporting the aims of the NeoCon Junta in Venezuela? Could we really expect anything better from a poster that reacts in knee-jerk fashion to anything perceived, however slightly, as an attack on Jews and/or Israel?

Wew're not buying YOUR crap, either.

[bpilgrim]

75. 'Babelfish' - lol

and who translated that mess for ya?

:hi:

peace

[pitohui]

60. those who crucified christ...would that be the romans?

that babelfish just sounds like babel to me, the context actually makes it sound like he might be talking about the conquistadors, which i thought were spanish

[Codeine]

62. You're being deliberately obtuse

but it's cute on you.

[bpilgrim]

78. babblefish

babblefish
babblefish

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Codeine]

83. I used babelfish so that I wouldn't be accused

of misrepresentation by providing my own translation. I've had to learn Spanish to speak to my wife's family.

[bpilgrim]

84. well, what about being laughed at?

anyone who has ANY experience with online 'translators' know that they certainly are not to be QUOTED from as anything representing an actual nuanced representation of anything, hello, especially on such a controversial topic.

well, now you know & THAT is part of what makes DU great, SHARING valid information.

now go forth and procreate ;->

peace

[Codeine]

87. Nuanced? No. Unbiased? Yes.

That was my point. And feel free to laugh - the best medicine and all. Peace.

[bpilgrim]

89. Unbiased GIBBERISH, sure

but anything to be quoted seriously is HUGH!!!>??

ser1uslly

peace

[Codeine]

91. We're just being silly now.

Good night! :hi:

[bpilgrim]

94. well at least now you are admitting to it...

at first i thought you may have been a newbie :shrug:

peace

[Media_Lies_Daily]

113. "We"??

[bpilgrim]

77. yep, the heads of STATE who were THREATENED by another LIBERAL

of course they had the co-operation from their pat robertsons and jerry fawells, etc of their day as well.

old story, eh :evilgrin:

but... i'm sure it is ALL just a COINKY-DINK & just in your head :P

peace

[Media_Lies_Daily]

111. I don't guess you know the story of Pontius Pilate, do you?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

110. Oh, please. Using Babelfish to get an accurate translation? Laughable.

[Marie26]

121. Spanish translation

Hey, I speak fluent Spanish & have given a shot at translating this. For what it's worth, this passage seems ambigious at best & could be interpreted as referring to Jews or simply to a capitalist minority of wealthy people. I think we'd need a little more evidence to call him an anti-Semite.

"The world would have enough for everyone, were it not for some minorities; the decendants of those that crucified Christ, the decendants of the same ones who threw Bolivar from here and crucified him in another way in Santa Maria, Columbia. A minority posesses all the riches of the world, and owns the Earth's gold, silver, minerals, water, good land, oil - all the wealth, then, and has concentrated that wealth into very few hands. Less than 10% of the world's population owns more than half of the world's wealth.. and more than half of the Earth's people are poor, and every day there are more poor in the entire world. We are here decided to change this history."

His theme seems to be more about the concentration of wealth in a small minority of wealthy & powerful people, versus the vast majority of poor people who receive nothing. It is potentially troubling, though, that he chose to use codewords like "the crucifiers of Christ" to express this. But on the face of it, it seems to be only a metaphor & there's no indication he's referring to Judaism at all.

[JFN1]

61. Yup.

And if Bush has his way and bombs Iran pre-emptively, I believe the entire Middle East will rise up, and their first target will be the total, unmitigated destruction of Isreal, for Iran will be able to say American hegemony was always our first goal...

[Jim Sagle]

64. Do you have a reliable link for those Chavez remarks?

The sites I've seen are not reliable at all.

I really don't want to have to stop buying Citgo gas.;(

[bpilgrim]

81. DON'T PANIC!

it's 'babblefish' - roflmao

peace

[bpilgrim]

66. the Terrorist Sharon and Bush are only making things worse for EVERYONE

more...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/images/me

psst... pass the word ;->

peace

[Jim Sagle]

82. Sharon RRRRRRRAWWWWKSSSS!!!!!!!!

[bpilgrim]

86. thats zactly what the neoCON wackos say, too

must give you pause for THOUGHT, eh?


more...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/images/me

peace

[Jim Sagle]

92. Some of the neocons are damning him for being "soft."

But I have to say (as I always do): Ariel's da man, doin' the best he can...to make the world a better place.:beer:

[bpilgrim]

93. i'm sure you know where they're comming from

yeah, you sure must be drinking a LOT of that kool-aide to think that the TERRORIST sharon is 'makeing the world a better place' but don't expect much company here in the reality based community of DU.


more...
http://news.globalfreepress.com/images/me

psst... pass the word ;->

k&r

peace

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Jim Sagle]

122. I'm against the Iraq war. Your accusation of racism is bogus.

[RazzleDazzle]

71. Um, I hate to break this to you but

Israel has had its own designs on Iran, and they began well before that unfortunate and despicable comment you cite. See the PNAC plans for the region and you'll understand more. Also see Clean Break info, which if memory serves predates PNAC -- here, I'll give you a head start:

The document itself:
http://www.israeleconomy.org/strat1.htm
http://www.informationclearinghouse.info/article1438.htm
http://www.cooperativeresearch.org/archive/1990s/instituteforadvancedstrategicandpoliticalstudies.htm
http://www.gcmhp.net/File_files/clean2k3.html
http://www.scoop.co.nz/stories/HL0302/S00176.htm (with an excerpt from a Robert Fisk article Feb. 15, 2003, in The Independent)

A Disturbing Document by James Zogby, American Arab Institute
September 23, 1996
http://www.aaiusa.org/wwatch_archives/092396.htm

A clean break for Israel By Sadi Baig
http://www.atimes.com/atimes/Middle_East/FF30Ak07.html

[rman]

98. "Chavez making anti-Semitic comments" - evidence please

?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

109. Just curious, but what do you think Israel wants to do to Iran? We've....

...already done their dirty work in Iraq at the cost of nearly 100,000 Iraqis and almost 2200 Americans.

As far as the "growing Muslim population" in Europe, so what? Are you trying to say that all Muslims are terrorists?

Your comment about Chavez is ludicrous at best. You must be chugging the NeoCon Koolaid to believe anything in the mainstream media propaganda arm of the NeoCon Junta.

[enigma000]

117. Chavez was brought up a Catholic in Latin America

of course he thinks the Jews are "Christ killers" - its what he learned as a child in school (present company exempted, of course). I'm just sorry he was the one to say something like this - it makes him look bad in the eyes of the world.

As for Muslims, well, their feelings toward Jews aren't all that positive right now, are they? I was just making an observation.

Edited for Spelling.

[AllegroRondo]

5. " grabbing on to the hate and superiority "

that nails it. chilling.

[Jara sang]

15. damn sure did, has freepers written all over it.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

6. My Jewish family has been talking of leaving

but for other reasons. They feel the Muslim threat is not being taken seriously. They would never go back to Germany because it is so heavily Turkish now. They have looked into Israel but think they are too old.

Interesting how different people have different takes on the same situation.

Me, I'm just planting a garden and raising chickens.

[IndyOp]

8. Grannie - could you elaborate...?

They feel the Muslim threat is not being taken seriously.

I could guess, but would rather find out what they are worrying about...

Also - is this their wording 'the Muslim threat' as opposed to 'the terrorist threat'?

:shrug:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

12. First, let me say that these are my in laws from the old country.

I am not Jewish.

I think what they are referring to is the centuries-old hate between the Jews and the Muslims, rather than "terrorism" per se. They see Europe as rapidly turning into Eurabia on the simple numbers alone. The birthrate is way down, except for Muslim immigrants. So I guess they figure that Sharia is not far off and they want to get out of town while the getting is good.

Oddly enough, they don't pay much attention to events here that have us on DU all freaked, like Snoopgate, etc. When I point things like that out to them they literally pat me on the head. And tell me I'm sweet to worry so.

[IndyOp]

17. I understand, old country...

If they are concerned about Europe, and Israel is out, where would they go?

If that is their concern then the US is least likely to Sharia - Christian Dominionism is far more likely. :eye:

[Clara T]

13. "Me, I'm just planting a garden and raising chickens."

in that there is wisdom. That is what my lovely grandmother did during the Great Depression. And in this way she fed and raised her four daughters, by herself.

Peace

[kineneb]

53. joining you in gardening and chicken

have started the garden and have Henrietta the Pet Chicken, who lays lovely pale green eggs

Looking at the political situation makes me want to pack my bags for Europe, but Hubby is on dialysis and can no longer travel. At least we live in a independent-minded rural area in CA. Heck, the phone co.s usually can't figure out our county exists!

[bpilgrim]

59. 'the Muslim threat' - reminds me of what the nazis said about the jews

especially the phrase ISLAMO-FASCISM :puke:

good luck with your garden & chickens and thanks for sharing :toast:

peace

[RazzleDazzle]

73. Wow -- enough bigotry in there for ya?

Muslim threat -- and a SERIOUS one
Germany now (too) heavily Turkish

But your Jewish family would (rightfully) object when they're subjected to anti-Semitism, I imagine. Bigotry is a-okay when they're the bigots, I take it. Seems to be normal and okay with you too -- just "different people having different takes" on things.

Wow.

[bpilgrim]

80. she's with the old-school

don'cha know ;->

peace

[FreedomAngel82]

7. I read that last year

Scary isn't it? Buy the book "Night" by Elie Wiesel.

[Richard D]

9. It's really important . . .

. . . that we fight. If this type of scenario is possible, and I believe it is, there will not be any safe place in the world to run away to. We have to get rid of these madmen.

[Jim__]

10. Does anyone here believe that if Bush started the wholsale arrest ...

of certain people in this country, with no charges, no court hearings, no nothing; and said he was doing it to protect the national security; that the people of this nation would rise up and resist?

I believe a large portion of the population would support him. Of all the countries in the world, we may have learned the least from World War II. I hope we're not about to learn th lessons now.

[prodigal_green]

16. what do you mean by "if?"

He has been doing that and nobody is saying a word. Hell, there are cowards out there who are willing to give up all their rights to feel "safe". Buncha babies.

Funny how those of us who live in cities of highest risk also recognize how precious our civil liberties are--maybe that is because there is less pressure to conform socially that you might find in smaller communities. We're willing to put our lives on the line for our rights, why aren't the "remember 9/11" folks?

[CrispyQ]

30. Not only would they support him, they will be happy to

turn in their neighbors, family & friends, who do not believe the way they do. Still sporting a Kerry/Edwards bumper sticker? Don't go to church on Sunday? Keep mostly to yourself & don't socialize with many others? Beware. Being unconventional will make you suspect.

[Extend a Hand]

63. I'm gone for sure then

they probably won't like my 'Bush is a Fascist' bumper sticker too much ;)

[Media_Lies_Daily]

114. Excuse me, but the NeoCons detained THOUSANDS of Muslims....

...and others of Middle Eastern descent following 911. Some were kept years before being released without being charged with any crime, some were deported, and I would guess that some are still being held.

Where was the resistance in the U. S. of which you spoke in your post? Where was the resistance in pre-WWII Germany when the first Jews and other "enemies of the state" were hustled off to concentration camps? Where was the resistance when FDR ordered the Japanese into internment camps?

[prodigal_green]

14. I spoke to an elderly Spanish woman during

the Republican convention in NYC (we're both NYers, not Republicans)and she said more or less the same thing re: Fascism. She said she believes it would be a lot worse here because people are so invested in the idea that they are free that they refuse to recognize totalitarianism when it is staring them in the face. Similar sentiments from friends from Chile, Brazil and Argentina.

[Starkers]

18. Germany?

Whoa. I work for the Germans and go over there. That is a crazy company.

[newyawker99]

44. Hi Starkers!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[Frank Cannon]

19. Oh, no. DON'T make comparisons of the neocons to Nazis!

You will run into at least a few people here who will totally rake you over the coals for that. In my relatively short time here, I've seen many a DUer flamed into a smoking, bacony crisp over the very SUGGESTION that the Neocons bear any resemblance to the Nazis--mostly based on the fact that the neocons haven't killed 12 million people. Like we're all just supposed to wait around for that to happen before the comparison becomes truly "valid".

The Nazis were Nazis YEARS before they started killing people in death camps. The death camps didn't come until close to the end of their reign, when they realized their diseased supremacist ideology was inevitably doomed. I'm sorry, but if it looks like a Nazi and acts like a Nazi, I'm calling it a freaking Nazi. And the neocons are Nazis! So there.

[sinkingfeeling]

20. Hear, hear! I've been 'spooked' by the awesome similarities since I

read those plans on the PNAC site. I see it everywhere. Bought 2 or 3 books that documented how the German people reacted during the rise of Hitler and 'dog-eared' the pages with quotes that could be taken from our newspapers today. The books look like hell now, since the tops are about 3 times thicker than the bottoms from all the dog ears!

[kath]

29. sinkingfeeling, you've probably already read the book from which this is

excerpted, but I highly recommend that everyone here read this:
http://dailykos.com/story/2005/12/20/12819/467

Very chilling, but very important.

[sinkingfeeling]

34. Thanks. Haven't read that one, but all were in the same vein.

[kath]

67. Excerpt from Milton Mayer's "They Thought They Were Free: The Germans

1933 - 1945". (from that DailyKos diary linked in my previous post)

"You see," my colleague went on, "one doesn't see exactly where or how to move. Believe me, this is true. Each act, each occasion, is worse than the last, but only a little worse. You wait for the next and the next. You wait for the one great shocking occasion, thinking that others, when such a shock comes, will join with you in resisting somehow. You don't want to act, or even to talk, alone; you don't want to "go out of your way to make trouble." Why not? - Well, you are not in the habit of doing it. And it is not just fear, fear of standing alone, that restrains you; it is also genuine uncertainty.

"Uncertainty is a very important factor, and, instead of decreasing as time goes on, it grows. Outside, in the streets, in the general community, everyone is happy. One hears no protest, and certainly sees none. You know, in France or Italy there will be slogans against the government painted on walls and fences; in Germany, outside the great cities, perhaps, there is not even this. In the university community, in your own community, you speak privately to your colleagues, some of whom certainly feel as you do; but what do they say? They say, "It's not so bad" or "You're seeing things" or "You're an alarmist."

"And you are an alarmist. You are saying that this must lead to this, and you can't prove it. These are the beginnings, yes; but how do you know for sure when you don't know the end, and how do you know, or even surmise, the end? On the one hand, your enemies, the law, the regime, the Party, intimidate you. On the other, your colleagues pooh-pooh you as pessimistic or even neurotic. You are left with your close friends, who are, naturally, people who have always thought as you have. But your friends are fewer now. Some have drifted off somewhere or submerged themselves in their work. You no longer see as many as you did at meetings or gatherings. Informal groups become smaller; attendance drops off in little organizations, and the organizations themselves wither. Now, in small gatherings of your oldest friends, you feel that you are talking to yourselves, that you are isolated from the reality of things. This weakens your confidence still further and serves as a further deterrent to what? It is clearer all the time that, if you are going to do anything, you must make an occasion to do it, and then you are obviously a troublemaker. So you wait, and you wait.

"But the one great shocking occasion, when tens or hundreds or thousands will join with you, never comes.> That's the difficulty. If the last and worst act of the whole regime had come immediately after the first and the smallest, thousands, yes, millions would have been sufficiently shocked if, let us say, the gassing of the Jews in "43" had come immediately after the "German Firm" stickers on the windows of non-Jewish shops in "33". But of course this isn't the way it happens. In between come all the hundreds of little steps, some of them imperceptible, each of them preparing you not to be shocked by the next. Step C is not so much worse than Step B, and, if you did not make a stand at Step B, why should you at Step C? And so on to Step D.


<more>
<edited to get the HTML right>

[MisterP]

50. which books? I recall one book that was a study of Imperial and Weimar

Germany, and noted that it was not backward, but thoroughly modernizing and industrial. It also noted that the Germans were at the time no more anti-Semitic than their neighbors--often even less--and wholly artificial Nazi propaganda encouraged the people to merrily go along with the extermination of 12,000,000 people in the camps

[txindy]

22. I can't argue with that.

And I've run into those people here, too. "How dare you trivialize what the Nazis did by claiming these criminals are like them?" :eyes: It's not trivializing the past, it's warning about the future - and the present.

[Loonman]

25. "trivialize"

Nazi Germany happened because the people did "trivialize" what was going on, and willingly voted more power for Hitler and the Nazi Party.

[txindy]

26. They also stood by and let him assume powers he wasn't given.

It's all too familiar, what happened then and what's happening now.

[Hubert Flottz]

31. Some folks are just silly!

The same super rich American families, "the haves and have mores" like the "Beautiful Minded" Bush family, supported, funded and enabled Hitler in his insane, all out, efforts to commit the horrible crimes against humanity, that he and HIS cronies pulled off! Now those SAME families are busy turning America and the world, into the 4th Reich, which they plan to own and operate as THEY PLEASE. Why would anyone with a little common sense, doubt that these things are not only possible, but highly probable. The PC bullshit, is foolish in light of the things we've already seen here at home, over the course of the past 5 years. If the American people are stupid and lazy enough to let this neocon/"New World Order" thing reach critical mass and it looks for all the world like they will, then the American people deserve exactly what they will get!

China and Russia have plenty of multi warhead nukes and delivery vehicles(ICBMs)and I believe if Bush pushes them, they will fight back. The fire bombing of places like Dresden and the two Nukes dropped on Japan were small potatoes, compared to the weapons available now, for the other countries of this world, to use to protect and defend themselves, from the next Hitler to rear his ugly smirking, arrogant, selfish, head! The German and Japanese people paid for their blind faith and buck passing and so I'm afraid, will we, if things don't soon change.

The people mis-leading America now, are the same types of criminals as the Nazis were, or worse. The neocons and the repig leadership, may not be card carrying members of the Nazi party, but that is about the only distinction, between the super wealthy hard right mobster families and their political capos, who NOW control our sick assed country.

Anyway, don't pay any attention to any P C fools who preach that evil shit could never happen in America, because if you open your eyes, you'll see that it is indeed happening again. Five years ago people laughed at me for comparing Bush to Hitler, but now more and more have awaken and smelled the chimneys. Anyone who can't see it, just don't want to look! Afraid to see the truth just like the Germans were in 1933, and BOY did the German people pay and the ones who survived WW II and didn't pay with their lives, paid with the loss of the country's freedom for another sixty years after their ELECTIVE war ended...

How PC will you be, when the Russians and their pissed off neighbors, come to rape, pillage and plunder in New York and Hollywood, like they once did in Berlin?????

[Karenina]

69. They're worse.

Technological advances et al...

[in_cog_ni_to]

32. They ARE NAZIS and I don't give a shit what others think. It's OBVIOUS

to anyone who's paying attention that Fascism has this country by the throat! I have a "W" Just Say No To Fascism" bumper sticker on my car and I PRAY people connect the dots before it's too late....and it may already be too late.:cry:

[in_cog_ni_to]

36. ALSO...this VERY important point must not be overlooked...

THE BUSH FAMILY'S CONNECTION TO HITLER AND THE NAZI CONCENTRATION CAMPS. Never forget that point. Bush's Grandfather helped to funnel money to build the concentration camps.....interesting how THAT is never mentioned in this country, isn't it? IMCPO, this all stems from that. This has been their plan through all these years. This idiot-in-chief was just ignorant enough to let it happen/help it happen.

[Hubert Flottz]

39. "let it happen/help it happen." .......Bush Will Make it happen!

Pandora is alive and well in Washington! Check out the info on this thread and give it a bump...

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x30773

[LSK]

37. ive been flamed once or twice for making that comparison

But what purpose does history serve if not to warn us of past mistakes.

A good book: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0671728687/qid=1136329605/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/104-4026340-7087941?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

[Hubert Flottz]

40. "to warn us of past mistakes."

The Only GOOD thing the Nazis did, was to give us an example of what we should NEVER BECOME!

[Frank Cannon]

47. I think the Reverend Martin Niemuller said it best:

"First they came for the Communists, and I did not speak up, because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the Socialists, and I did not speak up, because I was not a Socialist.
Then they came for the trade unionists, and I did not speak up, because I was not a trade unionist.
Then they came for the Jews, and I did not speak up, because I was not a Jew.
Then they came for me...

and by then there was no one left to speak up for me."

We give these crazy, immoral, and just plain evil people the "PC" treatment at our peril.

They're Nazis, and there's just no two ways about it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

49. BINGO. One of my favorite quotes.

If these people aren't NAZIS.....

[Sapphire Blue]

51. Updated version inspired by Niemoller ...

Then They Came for Me

by Stephen F. Rohde, Esq.


First they came for the Muslims, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a Muslim.

Then they came to detain immigrants indefinitely solely upon the certification of the Attorney General, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't an immigrant.

Then they came to eavesdrop on suspects consulting with their attorneys, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a suspect.

Then they came to prosecute non-citizens before secret military commissions, and I didn't speak up because I wasn't a non-citizen.

Then they came to enter homes and offices for unannounced "sneak and peek" searches, and I didn't speak up because I had nothing to hide.

Then they came to reinstate Cointelpro and resume the infiltration and surveillance of domestic religious and political groups, and I didn't speak up because I had stopped participating in any groups.

Then they came for anyone who objected to government policy because it aided the terrorists and gave ammunition to America's enemies, and I didn't speak up because...... I didn't speak up.

Then they came for me....... and by that time no one was left to speak up.



Stephen Rohde, a constitutional lawyer and President of the ACLU of Southern California, is indebted to the inspiration of Rev. Martin Niemoller (1937).

http://www.janrainwater.com/htdocs/Rohde.htm

[Frank Cannon]

70. Damn... Thanks for that.

Anyone who isn't scared completely shitless by that is just not paying attention.

[Sapphire Blue]

72. I agree & you're welcome... and welcome to DU, Frank Cannon!

:hi: :hi: :hi: :hi: :hi:

[Media_Lies_Daily]

115. I was severely flamed for making that comparison before the NeoCons....

...seized power in 2000.

Five years later, it is with no personal satisfaction that I now see so many Americans beginning to make the same observations about the strong similarities between the NeoCon Junta and the pre-WWII Nazi Party of Germany.

[JFN1]

48. Isn't it amazing?

How some people just cannot handle the truth? The truth is, BushCo and his neocons operate just like the Nazis did, and simply refusing to point this out for some vague consideration to 'political correctness' is, well, irresponsible...

"A rose by any other name would still be a rose."
"Not if you called them 'stench blossoms'." -- The Simpsons

And a neocon by any other name would still be a Nazi...

[toddaa]

54. Pick a dictator, any dictator

Nazi is a loaded word, so to avoid the shrieks of the hypersensitive, choose any of these other fine dictators:

Josef Stalin
Pol Pot
Mao Tse Tung
Benito Mussolini
Francisco Franco
Hideki Tojo
Idi Amin

Lot's other good ones. I'm partial to Stalin, myself. The whole Soviet apparatus was brilliantly exposed in Solzhenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago. The striking similarity between the Russian Revolution and the Republican Revolution ought to give any objective observer pause. Plus, it's a lot more fun to call Freeper's Leninists and Stalinists than Nazis.

[druidity33]

103. oh so agree...

i agree. Let's take the Nazi's out of it. Comparisons are truly better made to Fascists and Dictators in general. IMO nobody can really be compared to Nazi Germany without incurring a well of hatred and preconceptions. And ha! yes it is more for to call someone a Leninist!


...little bathroom stickers...

[AZBlue]

21. Disturbing and unnerving.

Thank you for posting this!!

If anyone's looking for the original page so they can forward it to friends, as I have done, it is:
http://justicefornone.com/article.php?story=20050527204356114&query=holocaust%2Bsurvivor

[Loonman]

23. 'Defying Hitler'

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0374161577/002-2080427-9148018?v=glance&n=283155

[JFN1]

68. Reminds me of a movie

I saw on CBS a couple of years ago, that I don't think they've ever released on DVD (for some reason), called, Hitler: The Rise of Evil" that seems more and more relevant. If anyone knows where to find a DVD of it, please let me know.

Here's a quote from the movie's website:

"The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing."

The theme for HITLER: THE RISE OF EVIL comes from this quote by Edmund Burke. Burke was not a contemporary of Hitler's or Nazi Germany, but rather lived during the time of the American Revolution. Born in 1729 in Dublin, he was a philosopher and statesman who supported human rights issues, was a member of the British Parliament and advocated conciliation towards the American colonists.

This quote is ascribed in various forms to Burke, though never found in his writings. Possibly it is a distillation of the words found in Thoughts on the Cause of the Present Discontents (April 23, 1770): "When bad men combine, the good must associate; else they will fall one by one, an unpitied sacrifice in a contemptible struggle."

[Dunvegan]

24. American Fascism doesn't have to be called Nazi-like...

...because any form of institutionalized fascism is extremely bad.

Every facsist country has its own special brand of the poison.

Ours will be particularly "American" in flavor.

[MisterP]

41. each country--indeed, each tinpot dictator in the succession--brought

a new flavor to the fascist table: Spain, Portugal, and Latin America each was possessed of a varying style.

[JFN1]

58. I don't think

it is a matter of "will be."

I believe it already "is," and you're right, it is distinctly American in flavor...

[mnhtnbb]

28. Signs of fascism in this country

have been evident for years. My husband and I have bought property in Panama and are building a house. Vacation? Retirement? Escape hatch?
We hope we don't have to go there full time before our 15 yo graduates high school in 2008.

Bush and his neocons are destroying the country. Remember, it takes much longer to rebuild than destroy anything. Even if we wrestle the government back from these evil people, it will not bring back those who've died in the Iraq War. It won't undo the damage done by US WMD's used in Iraq: DU weaponry and whatever else the Pentagon used. Anyone think the Gulf Coast will be rebuilt any time soon? Or that it isn't an opportunity to use the new ruling from SCOTUS that property can be seized to benefit the highest and best usage of whatever company steps up and says, "We want it!" To hell with the people who lived there is the attitude of the Bushies.

Health care? What do they give us? Mumbo jumbo to try to figure out the Medicare Drug benefits. Cut loans to students. Back up the truck for tax cuts for the wealthy. Spying on US citizens without court orders. This is not my country.

My husband and I were talking just this a.m., speculating about the conversation Jesus would have with GWB if he were to return, just as these right-wingers want. "You did WHAT in my name?" we think would be the first thing out of his mouth. These neo-cons are NOT Christians in my book.
They are liars and full of hatred and contempt for anyone who doesn't see things their way. They are dangerous. They intend to use the power of the government to benefit their corporate buddies and penalize those with whom they disagree.

They own the voting machines. There will never be another free election in this country as long as corporations are controlling the mechanism recording "votes". They stole the elections of 2000 and 2004.

If you aren't making plans to get out, you better start thinking about it.

[in_cog_ni_to]

33. This sends CHILLS down my spine.

<sigh> He is so right.

[REDKING]

42. SIGH OF RELIEF.

FOR WHAT ITS WORTH I'M GLAD YOUR'E BRAINS ARE STILL WORKING.
I HOPE THE VOICE BECOMES DEAFENING BECAUSE ITS GONNA NEED TO BE.
KEEP THE FAITH.

[sniffa]

43. WORD?

[newyawker99]

45. Hi REDKING!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[greiner3]

46. Good story! n/t

[proud patriot]

55. I wish I could hug him

:cry:

[nicknameless]

65. Almost identical to a first-hand experience posted on DU in the last

several months.

Those who say bushco can't be compared with the Nazis are just splitting hairs. Hitler didn't have more modern WMDs at his disposal like depleted uranium, or white phosphorus. How many hundreds of thousands or millions have they already harmed? How many will they harm in the future? Air currents can carry du. It won't be isolated to Iraq.

[norml]

76. Dictatorship is for wimps.

They said democracy was a failed idea who's time had passed, and dictatorship was the way of the future.

They said our open societies with respect for individual rights the rule of law and differences of opinion were weak, and that dictatorship was strong.

They were wrong.

They were jokes.

They lost.

We won.

Dictatorships are weak because they can cover for incompetence and criminality to a degree that would never be possible in an open democratic society with respect for individual rights the rule of law and differences of opinion.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

116. I guess we're all wimps now, because....

...we are clearly living in a dictatorship, and have been since December 13, 2000.

[Lorien]

90. A family friend is a Holocaust survivor, and he's been saying the same

since late 2001. Henry hasn't moved back to Germany (he was rescued from a concentration camp at age 12, but his entire family was murdered by the Nazis prior to his rescue so there's no one left to return to) but he is extremely concerned that history is repeating itself. :-(

[OneBlueSky]

95. I e-mailed a copy of this to the Reader Services Editor of my local paper

with a brief introductory note . . .

"PLEASE PASS THIS ARTICLE ON to your your editors, columnists and reporters. It should be required reading for EVERY honest newsperson in America . . . and SOON . . ."

different approach, but I'm hoping it will stimulate enough interest to get passed around . . . maybe if a lot of people read it, they'll start talking about it . . . and maybe even THINKING! . . . and maybe even starting to report the truth . . . (ain't holdin' my breath, though) . . .

if people would just open their eyes . . .

[bpilgrim]

97. excellent idea

i think we can be most effective on DU by educating the M$M and the ELITE, they have neither the time nor inclination, obviously, to do it themselves and they will start waking up, one by one.

real americans don't wanna lose what we got and are not about to let the neoCONs piss it all away.

thanks for sharing :toast:

peace

[Vektor]

96. Welcome to DU, JFN1!

Thanks for this great, and very poignant post.

[JFN1]

120. Thanks!

DU rocks!! Its only the best message board on the planet!!!!!

[lonestarnot]

101. Isn't this a rerun?

[autorank]

118. Paul Craig Roberts is a true patriot. He's been on these dogs since day 1

He is utterly unabashed, free wheeling, and accurate. He justifies all of us here who say even Nixon is preferable to Bush, certainly Reagan, and clearly any other president we've had this century starting with FDR.

When somebody has the guts to run a real public opinion poll on impeachment, the voice of the people will be heard.

I have a feeling that Bush's time is limited, he's at the end game stage, he's going to be taking a hike preetty soon.

[Obamarama]

119. My mom says the same thing, and she fled the Nazi regime, too.

My mother has said several times that she has seen the same things transpire before as well. Her family just narrowly escaped the holocaust. They were among the lucky European Jews. My grandather was a rabbi and had connections here in the US. He understood what was coming down and made arrangements to leave Europe. They left in early April 1940, and in early May, Hitler took France.

This German gentleman and my mom are, unfortunately, our canaries in the cave. Frightful to think about, really.

[JohnWxy]

124. Thank you for a very important statement.

I wish we could get more people to see this statement.

I thought this sentence was particularly telling:

"He said the news refused to question the government, and the ones who did were not in the newspaper business much longer."

NOw, they've gotten much more sophisticated. The Government doesn't remove those who report the news, the corporate controlled networks make sure that certain things aren't reported or are under-reported - distorted beyond recognition.