IMHO the Cheney thing ain't no biggie (politically)

[Mark5]

Perhaps there is some sort of cover up, and if Cheney hunting license ain't up to par the state may have the option to bring criminal charges against him, as it has been done in similar cases of accidental shootings.

My issue is that everyone is jumping all over this and making a partisan issue. I don't like Cheney and I sure as heck don't give a crap about all his big wig crooked corporate friends, but using an unfortunate accident to smear someones name for political gain seems desperate, ill willed and cut throat. Something that will not help our parties image with middle america.

IMHO of course :)

[Crazy Dave]

1. And my issue is:

There's American's getting shot and killed in a war of choice and this gets more attention.

[rastaman]

147. thats so true but...

you cant argue that this is too funny to resist. I agree about the stupidity of taking this very seriously, and I also think the press corps looked ridiculous and obnoxious yesterday peppering mclellan. They almost did the impossible by turning this administrations mouthpiece into a sympathetic character.
But you just cant deny the ironic humor of this shooting. When I read the story to my girlfriend on saturday she thought it was from some jokesite. You couldnt make this up!

[Crazy Dave]

164. I agree it was funny, but after you see over 200 posts here on DU...

...it gets :boring:

Same thing with Alito's wife. Never mind he was getting a free pass to confirmation with just a few bumps along the way. Nobody cared that their future civil liberties were in jeopardy, no sir, making fun of her 200 times plus was more important at the time. You got to admit that's what got all the attention on both sides.

Correct?

Who knows what the lying bastards in Washington, DC have been up to behind our backs these last two days with all the cameras and the nations attention turned and looking the other way at this thing.

[rastaman]

176. I hear you. I do think three days is enough...

It was funny saturday because It was too silly to be believed. Funny sunday for the political reaction. Funny monday for the punch lines on Leno, letterman, Conan. Now officially we have pretty much all had a good laugh over this and that should be it. After it reaches late night it truly jumps the shark for the next day and we should bet back to the reality. Usually anything after this point is just overdoing it. Plus this is not that big a deal in the scheme of things.

[Crazy Dave]

179. I wish I could have caught the daily show though...

...and I forgot to say earlier:

Welcome to DU rastaman :hi:

[rastaman]

181. I missed it too but...

it imust have been like shooting ducks in a barrel, no pun intended, for Stewart. Just too easy.

[Punkingal]

2. I wouldn't think it was a big deal....

If they hadn't kept it quiet for 20+ hours. That is what the problem is.

[TX-RAT]

39. Sorry, only ones required to report gun shot wounds is hospital

Had he not required medical attention, nobody would have known.

[Punkingal]

45. I don't quite get what you mean....

Why didn't the hospital report it then? They didn't, because the reporter with the paper who broke the story said there was no reports when they checked on Saturday night. Anyway, had he not required medical attention, this whole situation would be moot, wouldn't it?

[TX-RAT]

56. This is how it goes

Person A accidental shoots Person B, B does not require medical attention. story stops there.

A accidentally shoots B, B requires medical attention, and is taken to ER. It's required by law, in TX, that all gunshot wounds coming into ER, be reported to LE immediately. Officer responds to ER, questions victim and witness's. If all agree it's an accident, especially the victim, then the officer rights out an incident report, and goes on about his business.

If the hospital didn't notify LE, then it's their fault

[MyNameGoesHere]

90. You forget one itsy little thing

HE IS THE FRIGGING VP!! Like it or not when he decided to grab power he took along the magnifying glass with him. This is the life he chose and he deserves ALL the publicity, not just what they have been handpicking over the last 5 years. Stop enabling these cretins.

[TX-RAT]

109. Stop enabling these cretins.?

Just explaining the legal aspect of this.

[MyNameGoesHere]

114. Is it really all a legal

issue? Funny it sure don't seem like it. A bungled break in in DC started the downfall of another criminal. Maybe a bungled hunting trip is what we need, who cares about the legal issues it's the image damn it. He is vulnerable as hell and exposed in front of the world as a cretin. Take down time.

[Ezlivin]

3. What if he'd been drinking?

With 2 DWIs under his belt already, Cheney is a known drinker.

Waiting several hours before contacting authorities smacks of a cover-up.

How non-partisan is that?

[TX-RAT]

40. Not illegal to drink and hunt, on private property.

[dogday]

54. It is illegal to drink and shoot someone

whether you are hunting, or driving, or operating any equipment that could become a weapon....

[TX-RAT]

85. Sorry, It don't work that way.

If a couple of buddies are having a few beers and hunting on private property, and one accidental shoots the other, and both agree it's an accident. There is no crime.

[dogday]

99. Then why do they have to call the sheriff?

[TX-RAT]

110. Only the hospital is required to do that.

[dogday]

116. Same thing, Sheriff gets called

Are you saying if someone did not need medical care then it would be ok?

That Texas law does not require a report to be filed when someone is shot even accidentally?


I have a feeling that possibly in that area of Texas, which is owned by the Armstrong's and I would have to assume the town and police and everything else is beholding to The Armstrong Family, it would be different and was just so...

[TX-RAT]

135. one more time

If you and i were out hunting and i accidentally shot you, and we determined that there was no need for medical attention. It's end of story, no law requires us to report the incident.

If it was determined that you required medical attention it goes 2 ways.

1. Once we arrived at the ER, by law they have to contact LE.
2. If an ambulance was dispatched to the location by 911 then LE would be contacted informing them that a gunshot victim was in-route.

[auburngrad82]

107. If Wittingham were to die, it could be accidental homicide

Just like Vehicular homicide. The drunk didn't mean to kill anyone but he got behind the wheel of a car and it happened. Same thing with an accidental shooting. Being drunk shouldn't excuse your actions.



Liberal bumper stickers

[EstimatedProphet]

149. Wrong

This is a SHOOTING. It is by definition a type of assault with battery. Someone may decide not to press charges, but it is still a crime, and LE still need to be called.

[TX-RAT]

153. Been practicing law in TX very long?

[EstimatedProphet]

182. Are you saying...

that if someone goes to the hospital in Texas from gunshot wounds, and is admitted to ICU, doesn't need to have the police called just because it's Texas?

I'm sorry, I don't believe that, no. Shootings are a FELONY, which means it is automatically Federal.

[Deep13]

4. Most of the WH's criminality is a bit esoteric.

Shooting a guy is pretty concrete and is something everyone can understand.

[libnnc]

5. It's the cover-up and the obstruction of justice thingy

That is the real "biggie".

Pretty serious stuff doncha think?

[Mark5]

15. Exactly "if" we can prove

there was obstruction of justice, then yes goafter him like rabid dogs and burry him and anyone involved.

Even if the man(cheney) had been drinking, and the poor guy(whittington whatever his name) ends up dying, I say we keep away from it. They will burn by their own actions.

[converted_democrat]

27. You just want to sweep a shooting under the rug?? Is that what you're

saying?

[Mark5]

37. no

and please please , dont use the same silly rabid tactic of debating like the reps do. I never said that. I just said it was an accident, and unfortunate one, and using an accident how ever traigc or negligent for political gain will do more harm than good.

Lets stick to the war on terror and deaths of our boys and girls in uniform due to the begligence of Mr.Bush. Not this crap incident.

[converted_democrat]

43. How do you "know" we are being told the truth?

on edit- Why are they in hyper cover up mode? If they lied about anything, or tried to obstruct than they need to be prosecuted..

[Mark5]

57. sorry I am trying to out out fires along this thread lol

but, yes I stated earlier if, and a big IF there was obstrcution of justice we sholud go after it FULL force.

[converted_democrat]

65. Then why let it go in the meantime?? There is no good reason to let

this go until we know the truth.. They are stonewalling for some reason, and I want to know why.

[stepnw1f]

6. If the guy dies it's Involuntary Manslaughter

revenge for Teddy.

[Webster Green]

7. I wouldn't expect comments on this site to be non-partisan...

Fuck Cheney!

He's a complete fucking idiot, and needs to go.

[BattyDem]

8. My problem is this:

He is the VICE-PRESIDENT of the United States and he has shot someone, yet he hasn't even offered a simple apology! :grr: If you accidentally hurt someone, you say, "I'm sorry." That's not being partisan, that's being human ... and civilized.

[SPKrazy]

11. Didn't He "Offer Apologies" On Sunday To The Guy?

I read that yesterday I think

but why didn't he apologize on Saturday? Instead he went dinner with the rest of the group.

Of course Cheney is a crazy man who thinks it is man's natural state to be at war (from a newsweek article several years ago)

[BattyDem]

20. Did they say that? I didn't hear that ...

But even if he did, he is the VP ... he should offer a PUBLIC apology. Why hasn't he said anything publicly? :shrug:

[SPKrazy]

26. Yeah, I Read That In The Yahoo Story Yesterday When The News

first came out

but yeah, he should offer public apology too.

This guy is back in the ICU now

I knew this was way more serious than they were letting on

[bettyellen]

143. no statements have included an apology, or any regret

he got defensive about the permit he was lacking, deflecting blame for that, and he said he is praying for his victim today, after the heart attack story broke.
he won't ever apologise.

[cynatnite]

9. It's a big deal if they lied about the incident...

The incident itself wouldn't normally make news like this, but the delay of reporting is being questioned. It stinks of cover-up.

I think Cheney wasn't aiming at a bird at all, but accidentally shot Whittington.

[txindy]

10. The victim had birdshot migrate to his heart. He's had a heart attack

This isn't a partisan issue. The repubs I'm surrounded by here in Texas think Darth Cheney's an idiot for what he's done. If the man dies, Darth will lose a huge portion of his base, esp. if he continues to blame the victim.

A "superficial" wounding with birdshot migrating all the way into his heart and you believe that "perhaps there is some sort of cover up...?" Safe bet, that one.

[converted_democrat]

12. If they lied than it is a HUGE isuue..I don't plan on letting it go..

Thanks anyway..

[0007]

24. That's the way I feel and you have many behind you.

[Jackpine Radical]

13. Right on. It'll Make Us Look Bad if we pick on that nice Mr. Cheney.

It'll Make Us Look Bad if we point out that there's a coverup going on.

It'll Make Us Look Bad if we point out how they're playing Blame the Victim & refusing to take responsibility.

It'll Make Us Look Bad if we question why 18 hours (long enough for somebody to sober up) passed between the time of the accident and the time it was reported.

God, yes, you're right. We don't want to Look Bad here.

If the VP blasts somebody in the face with a shotgun loaded with birdshot, then waits 18 hours to report it, and then sets up a propaganda machine to blame the victim, and then denies that the guy was even hurt, it is really bad taste for anybody to comment on it.

[H2O Man]

51. I blame Howard Dean.

And Hillary and Bill Clinton. We need to be careful, or this could backfire. We'll be caught in the spray.

[Jackpine Radical]

67. It's a bipartysan scandol.

I bet a lot of democRAT politicians shoot their buddys when there out hauntin two, but you don't here nuthin about it cas the papers an the teevee is all liberls.

[H2O Man]

71. Vince Foster

dies while muskrat hunting with Hillary. The republicans NEVER tried to exploit that. They honor family values.

[Jackpine Radical]

75. I think I'm gonna get me a 28 gauge shotgun and a watermelon,

pace off 30 yards...

[H2O Man]

82. If you use

a watermelon grown with MiracleGrow, this is known as a "magic bullet" test. Arlene Spectator (R-PA) has warned that one is apt to be sprayed by President Reagan's "trickle down" theory, however.

[Jackpine Radical]

94. I thought that was "tinkle-down" theory.

[H2O Man]

120. Hopefully

just as VP Agnew's medical team was there to administer emergency care to the shooting victim, there will be those who volunteer their services to save us from the abstract dangers posed by this incident. We are clearly at very high risk here. The republicans are just hoping we'll make an issue of Cheney's attempted cover-up, and his blaming the victim. I almost think this could be a republican set-up.

[Jackpine Radical]

138. Especially after it turns out that Cheney had to shoot him in order

to save him from a Clinton plot. Boyoboy will those LIEberals look stoopid then.

[FightingIrish]

14. It could have been nothing but a regrettable accident but

the obvious attempts to forestall any serious investigation and to trivialize what we now know were serious injuries opens up a big can of worms. If Whittington dies a real investigation has to happen. Potentially it could lead to charges of criminally negligent homicide if alcohol was involved. This is no big deal for a mass murderer like Cheney but it just might bring him down.

[rpgamerd00d]

16. Why did you people reply to this post?

p.s. I got a bridge to sell you too, real cheap...

[txindy]

29. Because.

It's fun, esp. when they're so obvious about it. :evilgrin:

[converted_democrat]

33. Because I enjoy flushing them out at any chance I get..n/t

[myrna minx]

17. How is this being made into a partisan thing?

The Vice President of the United States shot a 78 year old man in the face. How is this NOT news? Middle America is going to realize for themselves what a moran Cheney is for violating hunting safety rules and shooting a 78 year old man in the FACE. :shrug: Is Teddy Kennedy turning purple over this? No. Do the AMerican people have a right to know what really happened when the Vice President of the United States shoots a 78 year old man in the face? Yes. What happens if this poor man dies? Do you think that average Joe America would have no scrutiny if he shot a 78 year old man in the face and he died? Dick Cheney is not above the law. That isn't partisan. That is American.

[Mark5]

46. Seriously?

Middle America didnt realize that we were sold on BS war, and you expect them to relize he is a bad guy cause he had an accident while enjoying an activity they can relate to?

It has nothing to with with him being punihsed. I just dont want the democratic party to be seen as going after a accident for political gain.

Who is gonna make this a partisan issue, Republicans. Are you guys really onna tell me you dont see that coming? Geez no wonder they beat us all the time at th PR/BS game....

and for f*cks sake I am a democrat, maybe my opinion does not go along with the party line mostly expressed here but my heart is in the right place :)

[Wind Dancer]

58. It's the cover up.

Cheney doesn't hunt like "Middle America" in case you didn't know.

[Jackpine Radical]

96. No foolin'.

Most of the hunters I associate with (and that's quite a few--I'm a hunter myself) are totally turned off by that whole city slicker/game farm thing. The only occasions when I've even been on a game farm were when I was training my dog. None of us thought of it as hunting; it was dog training.

[Wind Dancer]

159. It's just bizarre to hear the spin on this so called "hunting" accident.

The Anderson Ranch has a game-raising farm for the elite's entertainment, pure and simple. It's an insult to hunters everywhere to describe Cheney's activities as such. The man enjoys the sport of killing, not hunting.

A few years back on another one his trips - 500 farm-raised pheasants were released from nets for the morning shoot. 10 of these rich white bastards killed a total of 417 of them. Wonder if Scalia was 1 of the 10?

[myrna minx]

63. I don't see any politicians turning purple because of this.

Is Howard Dean screaming about this? No. Kennedy? No. Pelosi? No. They are letting the WH splash around in their own BS and suspicious behavior. Tell me, how would Sean Hannity or Rush treat it if Al Gore shot a 78 year old man in the face and what if that man passed away as a result. Should Cheney be treated the same as any American who accidentally shot a man? Would middle America Joe be allowed to not be questioned by the police for 18 hours? See, I live in middle America where there are many many many hunters and fisherman. Middle America is paying attention and this story isn't passing the smell test. Hunters know gun safety and hunting protocol. Cheney's story follows neither. If you think this is no big deal, continue to do so. I for one think that it is huge. We'll agree to disagree, I guess. Welcome to DU.

[melissinha]

18. And My issue is...

About 12,000 families of Katrina evacuees were kicked out into the streets while Michael Brown spends more energy trying to save his own hide when he is being grilled about mishandling and gross negligence than he did during the flooding.

Wish they could spend more time investigating James Lee Witt's plan and implimenting it to help these families.... Its not like we didn't have competent people in these positions, things have to be DONE!!!!! Get those doublewides out of Arkansas and put them in communities where they can be used....

YOU ARE OUR SENATORS, DO SOMETHING... the blame game is all and well, btu that doesn't take away from the fact that people are suffering NOW!!!!

[Norquist Nemesis]

19. "Some sort of cover up" makes it a biggie

because it symbolizes this administration. I didn't think it was a biggie at first, but after watching the way the WH is handling this I've changed my mind.

It's always the cover up that gets you in trouble.

[MadMaddie]

21. If they would have reported it properly then you are right

it would be a non-issue.

Politically, I don't think it's the actual shooting.

It's the way they handled the reporting of the shooting to the public.

If they take a cut and dry accident and instead of reporting it immedietly and truthfully to the public this would be non-political issue. But that's not what they did...they delayed the story, until they could get their stories straight. They came out and blamed the victim, Cheney has not made a public statement and the list goes on....When the story was released it was by a political donar the owner of the land to a local newspaper.

This behavior is indicitive of every situation that they put their hands on Iraq and Katrina....

Welcome to DU and Happy Valentines Day:hi:

[Bridget Burke]

22. And you're in touch with "middle america"?

Cheney was grossly negligent & shot a friend at close range. It was just announced that some shot "migrated" to the victim's heart & he had a "minor" heart attack.

Yes, there are more important issues right now. Check the other threads--they aren't being neglected.

One question: How can you "smear" Cheney's name?

[NanceGreggs]

23. In other circumstances, I would agree with you.

But in this case, Cheney & The Gang have brought this over-the-top scrutiny on themselves.

Besides, the Democrats (as a party) are not making any political hay out of this. What we say as individuals here, or elsewhere, does not mean the 'Party' is taking an official stance.

This Administration has maligned, swiftboated, and smeared everyone in their way. So when the tables are turned - well, he who lives by the sword dies by the sword.

It's the media that's all over this story. Regardless of how soft they've been told to be on Bushco et al, they just CAN'T RESIST a story like this. And the fact that Cheney was spending the weekend with a woman not his wife -- well, you KNOW the press and the public are going to EAT THAT UP!!!!

[blm]

25. And let's ignore fact they were spending Valentine weekend with 2 women

who were NOT their wives.

[rman]

28. "partisan issue", "smear someones name for political gain"

- Hannity, O'Reilly

I suppose you posted this before Whittington got a heart attack.

[H2O Man]

30. Ha!

Thanks for the laugh!!!!!

[rpgamerd00d]

31. YES, MANSLAUGHTER, OBSTRUCTION AND COVER UP IS NO BIG DEAL (/sarcasm)

[Mark5]

47. can you prove there is Obstrcution of Justice?

I hope to god you can, so then we can burry this mother, but until then such "empty" accusations can only have a negative effect.

[rpgamerd00d]

59. Of course there is proof.

- Sherriff showed up to investigate.
- Secret Service denied him access.

Bam.

Obstruction.

You'd have to be a total retard to think otherwise.

[Wind Dancer]

61. Wrong.

[kerry-is-my-prez]

32. IMO - He was drunk. Don't forget he has had 2 dui's.

n/t

[acmavm]

34. Well, unfortunately the arrogant bastard didn't even fill the need

to have a license to hunt quail. And the dude just had a heart attack. And they covered it up for 24 hours. And they keep minimalizing this even though the old duffer has been parked in the ICU for a couple of days.

Would you or I get that sort of treatment? NO, WE WOULDN'T. It is political. The guy's a crooked lying bastard through and through. This is just another day in the saga of Mr. "Go fuck yourself" Cheney.

[Bjornsdotter]

35. Really?

A blow job is "no big deal"....shooting someone in the face with birdshot is a big deal when you try to cover it up, subvert the local police and will not comment on it.

Cheers

[Mark5]

68. lol IMO a BJ is no big deal either, however

hardly an accident hehe....What we have here with the Cheney thing is an "accident". Again if there was obstruction of justice it must be pursued until then hold off wild accusations.

[Sparkly]

36. What defines "making it a partisan issue" and who's doing that? nt

[Mark5]

48. Who? the Republican PR/BS machine

[Sparkly]

50. They're making it a partisan issue? Well, that's to be expected. nt

[Mark5]

53. Yes so dont help them out by proving their point

and turning it political...

[Sparkly]

55. Define "turning it political."

:shrug:

[Mark5]

62. Any "quote" taken from "any" democrat regarding

the incident that does something other than express hopes of well being for the poor bastard that got shot will be used not just against that democrat but spun as a party stance on the issue.

[Sparkly]

66. If "any" Democrat includes bloggers and DUers

then we can't mention all the odd circumstances, statements, and WH obfuscation, lest somebody else have a problem with that?

Or, are you talking about Democratic leaders like Howard Dean or members of Congress?

[Bridget Burke]

69. Yeah, "middle america" is lurking here....

And they'll turn against the Democratic Party if we aren't careful.

The White House was already joking about the shooting. Wonder if their "stance" will change?

[Mutley]

38. My problem is this...

Any average joe citizen who'd done the exact same thing would be fined at the very least -- if for nothing else other than not having the proper permit. Nothing will happen to Cheney because he is "above the law". THAT is bullshit.

[Sparkly]

41. They wouldn't have gotten away with avoiding immediate questioning, too nt

[im10ashus]

42. Are you serious?

SMEARING HIS NAME FOR POLITICAL GAIN? He's an idiot. A warmonger. A fascist pig. He has YET to make a formal PUBLIC statement. We are who he "works" for. This IS political. Get at grip newbie!

[Mark5]

52. take it easy with the pseudo insults

newbie, lol wtf is this a gaming forum?

relax, the guy will burn, all on his own, but if are seen as adding fuel to it it can only have a negative effect on us....

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fujiyama]

49. If Cheney and the administration

interfered in any way with the actual police investigation, then they should be held accountable, but as we know no one has been for the crims commited to this point. As for the actual shooting itself, it just once again shows how incompetant Cheney is, something we knew all to well already.

I'm more interested in his role in the Plame leak. It is very likely he commited a deliberate crime there. This is turning out to distract the public from that.

[pitohui]

60. did you know whittington just had a heart attack from pellet in heart?

the cover-up of the drunk hunting is not going to go away, everyone knows damn well why cheney thought a man dressed in orange on a sunny day looked like a quail

and now his friend may die

if he has any conscience at all, he'd resign but there's a stretch for you, cheney developing a conscience at this late date

[Mark5]

64. Like I ve said before, even if the poor guy dies

let them drown in this all by themselves. Hainv said that, do amek sure that the law is enforced as it should/would be in other case.

[txindy]

70. "Hainv said that, do amek sure that the law..."

What?

[Mark5]

72. my bad replying to 100 posts while at work is not easy!

something about going after them "if" there was obstrcution of justice.

[mac56]

73. IMHO, you're misguided. And missing the point.

But welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

[Mark5]

78. fair enough, thanks btw

[rpgamerd00d]

74. Mark5, its our job to make everything political.

Especially if it helps us win seats.

Political is not a bad word, as you imply. Political is a good word. Civil Rights are "political". Equality is "political". Enforcing the law is "political".

The best thing in the world, and for the world, is to make this Cheney shooting 100% political and use it to evict every Republican from office around the country, so the Democrats can take over and restore hope to this country.

[Mark5]

77. I understand and agree

Its just that this seems like a bad issue for us to gani anything out of politcally, unless of course again, we can prove obstrcution of justice.

[rpgamerd00d]

80. We dont have to prove anything, even though we can.

We simply point out that he shot a guy and covered it up for 14 hours.

Done deal.

But even so, there is already proof of obstruction. The sherriff and Secret service are ON RECORD stating that he was stopped and prevented from accessing the scene by the SS. That is obstruction, right there. Its on record. Its a done deal. Case closed.

[Bridget Burke]

It's too early to "prove" obstruction of justice.

But nothing is proven by sitting back & waiting for the White House to tell us what to think. Asking questions is always a good idea.

Actually, I prefer to make political points out of real issues--the War, the Budget, etc. But Cheney shot a man at close range out of gross negligence. The victim is in quite serious question. Why should I ignore this?

[Mark5]

86. Yes asking the righ questions, though

I also agree with you. There are bigger fish to fry than this "accident". This should not be ignored, it just shold be a "big deal" politically as I ve stated in the title.

The big deal should be "proving obstrcution of justice"...thats a whole other issue, and NOT an accident.

[rpgamerd00d]

89. I already proved it 3 times in this thread.

- Sherriff shows up to investigate.
- Sherriff is prevented from investigating by Secret Service.

That is obstruction. Its all on record. Ignoring me over and over again just proves you are a Freeper.

[Mark5]

104. Geez man , freeper?

You proved what? this is the problem; making accusations based easily refutable/spinalbe "proof"

SS agnets held up a sheriff from investigating. Do you know how what exactly are the operational procedures SS agents? Their jusrisdiction and duties?

What was the level of "prevention" and what did it prevent?

Above all these accusations can be easily be spun into nothingness. Before making wild accusattions we need to find more substantian evidence for obstrcution of justice, not some explainable/spinable occurance of events.

[rpgamerd00d]

113. Yes, I know the jurisdiction of SS agents. They cannot legally stop a...

... sherriff from entering a crime scene, ever, under any circumstances. And definitely not for 14 hours.

[Mark5]

121. 1st get out of your head this notion

that I am some undercover repub flamer/freeper whatever...

2nd thats awesome, point me to the link regarding where and how this obstrcution occured. Or a link regardging the clear lines of jurisdiction and duties of the secret service.(this is an honest request)

[rpgamerd00d]

126. Sorry, not everything is online (shocking, I know)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

91. If Kerry or Edwards did something like this, you don't think Rove could

make major political hay out of it, charges or not? Come on.

And there's no reason we shouldn't do the same.

[Mark5]

93. yes thre is a good reason why we should not do the same

we claim to not be that same, lets prove that.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

95. Actually I think it would be very legit for Rove to make political hay

out of a Dem candidate or officeholder doing something as DUMBASS as shooting someone, and then as SLEAZY as covering it up.

I think it would be entirely legit for him to do it, and for us to do it, so we disagree entirely.

[Mark5]

97. The accident and the cover up

are 2 diffrent issues.

An accident is an accident, which is what we have until now.

Obstructing justice to cover something is up, is a whole other issue. It should be carefully persued without making wild accusation we cant prove.

Reports of Sherrif being held back by SS agents seem to indicate some definate form of obstrcution, however the amount of "obstrcution " these SS aganets provided can not only be easily spun also probably explained as something they would normally do. If go goes beyong this then yes that is a HUGE deal.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

100. We disagree. Anything that's the TRUTH, that makes the opponent look

bad, should be used.

You seem to be implying that unless actual criminal obstruction of justice charges are brought, Dems shouldn't say anything about this. NOT.

As rpgamerdood said, just the fact that the guys stonewalled on this is damning. Game, set, match.

[Mark5]

108. well we agree to disagree

game set match? lol cmon man....

I am not implying it. I am stating it. Dems should stay clear of this.Any attempt for political gain from this will only have negative effects for the democratic party.

Look at the whole Kerry "I am reporting for duty" thing....geez

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

111. Yes anything Dems attempt to do for political gain is sure to backfire, so

they shouldn't do anything, eh?

[Mark5]

117. Stick to real issues

not an accidental hunting accident. We should do something about real issues.

how big would it be for one of our democratic leaders/or anyone representing the democratic stance in TV/Radio/print to actually say something along the lines of "We feel that is an unfortunate accident and we pray for the well being of Whittington, however we cannot let this incident draw our attnetnion away from serving the american people and addressing the real issues facing them" ....

[thebigidea]

165. I don't see you posting about real issues. Just this "distraction."

[Mark5]

167. you are right

thats because..

1st this thread is about this issue, so, i don't see the point in starting thread talking about the color blue , to only then begin debating the qualities of the color red.

2nd My point, which I am sure you are aware of by now is that this non-issue could backfire into our faces if we push to make it an issue.

[thebigidea]

168. pardon me if I just think you're a hypocrite and leave it at that.

whose face is this going to blow up in beside the old bastard with pellets in his face? Name one big name Dem who so much as squeaked about it.

"Middle America" is laughing hysterically about this. See any supermarket checkout line for proof.

[Mark5]

170. thats fine

In all honesty I would like to know where I have been hypocritical, maybe I have I don't see it.

[peacetalksforall]

76. It seems that many events become a big deal. One reason is the utter

hypocrisy. Keep looking at that angle when things happen and you will gain insight.

Here we have the possibility of manipulation which is, imo, the number 2 tactic after hypocrisy.

They must always attempt to make themselves into saints (and their blind lemming followers play a big part).

And as we know they believe that they are omnipotent - which translates to attitude, arrogoance, and placimg themselves above the law.

Always look below the water line of their iceberg to see how someone or other - or you - is going to be hit - and how many of 'theirs' are going to get wealthier. (New Orleans, for one example).

Looking below the water line helps you see the deception (playing tricks with bills and congressinal rules, for one example).

Looking below the water line helps you figure out the real truth with the help of DU and all the links that they provide to back up or refer so that you can figure it out for yourself and what you're going to believe.

They have absolutely zero credibility with me. I start from there.

Never take them at their face value because they cannot be straight forward about anything and are totally dishonest.

[Thtwudbeme]

79. All "OLDER" DUers: Please note

The people on this forum telling us that the VP shooting someone isn't a big deal.

[txindy]

81. Wait.

That's an age crack, isn't it? You're saying I'm old! :cry:

:rofl:

Yes, I've seen what you're saying. It's been quite a day and it's only just starting.

[H2O Man]

83. Sure.

Type of thing sure to damage our party. (Yikes!)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

101. Agreed.

[jayfish]

102. Yeah...

the language does have a familiar ring to it.

Jay

[mac56]

180. True, true, true.

I've been suspecting that for hours now. Thank you for saying it.

[Dora]

84. Dude, we are middle America.

I am, and everyone else I know is. If you're not, then WTF are you?

It seems that everyone disagrees with you here, and let me add my own opinions.

Nobody's using this event to "smear" Cheney. He's dirty enough on his own - all we're doing is pointing out the mud on his shoes, his pants, his shirt, his hands, face, hair... The man is as dirty as Pig-Pen for God's sake. Pull your head out of the sand.

Republicans are masters of ill-willed cutthroat political smears. This is not one of those. This is an event that's inspired a lot of discussion. DISCUSSION IS IMPORTANT. If you think talking about this is partisan.... well...

Goodness knows we don't want anybody to think Democrats have opinions.

We don't want to make too many waves by asking why local law enforcement wasn't allowed in.

Oh, and there was nothing political in the years-long mega-million dollar fruitless investigation into Clinton's denial and repression of a private extra-marital affair, so there is no precedent whatsoever for us to shine a political light on Cheney's poor marksmanship.

Cheney should be doing the adult and responsible thing of saying "I'm sorry I shot you," and all he and the WH is doing is saying that it's an unfortunate accident and the victim is to blame. It seems to me that the only parties throwing gasoline on this fire are the rubes and stooges in power. And now it appears they think that putting the "isn't this funny!" spin will take the edge off... and the fire gets hotter.

They're all wearing orange and slapping each other on the back, and we're just standing here warming our hands. Hell, at least it's free heat.

[Mark5]

87. "Middle America" as in the middle of the political spectrum

un-decided america.

[Bridget Burke]

137. Do you really think any "undecided" voters....

Will take their thumbs out of their asses long enough to lurk at DU?

[Mark5]

140. lol, no, hell no

I am talking about a genral public response. So far the democratic leaders seem to be taking a smart approach to this. My hope/concern is that they keep it up. I am afarid that someone commentator or otherwise will say somehting stuppid and thus allow give the Rep PR/BS machine some ammo.

[Dora]

144. I don't know what spectrum you're looking at

But my answer still stands.

Anyone who thinks that there is something "extreme" or "left of center" about Democratic values is either lying or a fool - or both.

[Mark5]

148. or better yet...

needs to be explained how they have been lied/misled to believe otherwise.

[RandomKoolzip]

88. You know damn well the right would do the same (and worse) if it had been

Kerry or Clinton or any other important Dem. Look at how they exploit Ted Kennedy's accident for political gain; now think of the money Rev. Moon or Scaife or Coors pumps into the rightist media apparatus every year....that Dem's career would have been OVER the second the news came over the wire, and the rightist media would exaggerate and bloviate about the whole thing until it suffocated the entire political discourse. Shit, Ann Coulter alone would be on every talk show, demanding assassination in revenge (shit, she demanded Clinton's assassination over a freakin' blowjob.) That's EXACTLY what would have happened had the shooter been a Dem and you damn well know it.

Compared to what we're doing here on some obscure political message board, the right is committing REAL, ACTUAL crimes. Go for the big fish, fella.



"Disingenuousness is the new sexy." -GirlinContempt

[Mark5]

92. Precisely why we need to show, we are NOT like them

and above such hurt full un-american tactics.

Yes go after the big fish, that being obstrcution of justice and not after an accident.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

98. I don't agree it's sleazy to take advantage of something like this.

To make up falsehoods, like Swiftboats, is sleazy, and we should be different from THAT.

To make your opponent look bad by highlighting their misdeeds is common sense, and totally legit in my opinion.

In fact, to NOT do it would be stupid, and would cause me to question the competence of the political people involved.

[jayfish]

106. And Showing How We Are Not Like Them Has...

worked how well for us in the past?

Jay

[Mark5]

151. right when we all went along

When did we show that?
When we ran with a candidate whose slogan was "reporting for duty" and who took taking PR shots in goofy hunting gear?

I can go on and on, but thats diffrent thread.

[jayfish]

154. Your Not Looking Back Far Enough.

This didn't start with the Kerry campaign. Think 1992-1994. Think Dem congress, Dem President and yet we had all of these investigations going on. The only reason this Admins being investigated for anything now is because we didn't go along to get along. Oh, and it was Wes Clark who said "reporting for duty" not Kerry.

Jay

[MissB]

103. Welcome to DU!

Enjoy your stay.

[rpgamerd00d]

105. Its never wrong to tell the truth - ever. Ever. EVER.

Never Ever.

If your sole point is "don't make fun of Cheney for accidentally shooting a guy", point taken, thanks.

If your point is "don't make this into a political issue at all", you are on the wrong message board.

[Mark5]

112. not I am on the right message board

I can see the damaging spin reps are gonna put on this, by us turning this political.As a democrat the least i can do is try to prevent the damamge.

[MissB]

115. Good luck with that.

It *is* political. The guy doing the shooting was a politician. His life is public and his actions are public. It is what he signed up for when he threw his hat into the ring.

Again, good luck with trying to convince people here that Democrats shouldn't "politicize" the issue. You'll be the lonely voice singing that tune.

[Mark5]

118. thats fine, just dont call me a

republican....

them be fightin' words :P

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

119. Yes it would work out so much better for us if no Dem ever breathed a word

about the VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES SHOOTING A 78 YEAR OLD MAN IN THE FACE, NECK AND CHEST again. LOL :hi:

[Mark5]

123. OI! lol just be careful to not turn it

or say something that will be spun in trying to politicize an ACCIDENT!

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

125. Yes I'm sure that backlash will be much worse on the Dems than

highlighting what a reckless boob Cheney is. :hi:

[Mark5]

128. Do we really need to highlight it

its already obvious.

Let be realistic here, Cheney is in the gutter in the polls. His negligence is responsible for the deaths of thousands of american soldiers, if people have not realized that he is complete loon by now, you think highlighting this and accident will prove this?

I really doubt it. He is done he has been done for a while, he is a wounded animal taking shots at wounded animal can only make look un-compassionate, you guys don't see that?

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

130. Nope, most of us just don't see it the way you do.

[Mark5]

146. thats alright

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

152. agreed

[Sugar Smack]

129. When THEY turn this political, how do you suggest we counter?

What are your ideas on "preventing the damage"? Damage has already been done to the tune of govermnental coverups of critical issues. I'm interested to hear your answer.

[Mark5]

155. I seriously don't think that my

opinion is worth more and any more correct than anyone else here, nor that its more enlightened. If that was the case I'd be working as a republican strategist, yes republican... ;)


Damage, as in damage to the image of the democratic party.

Well i think the democratic leaders are handling this very well actually, not going bonkers and making wild accusations based on preliminary speculation(that rhymed I know).

Which makes it nearly impossible for the right to spin this in any favorable way. The Righties now are forced to face the issues at hand .What the hell happened and what were the events during those 14 hours. Everyone wants to know not just us.

[im10ashus]

157. I can't wait for you to start making sense.

I really can't. So far all you have done is repeat the same mantra over and over. "Don't politicize this. Don't politicize this. It will make us look bad."

Here's a clue for you. Cheney is an elected official. He's lied to us again and again and again. If this isn't political why don't YOU tell US here at DU what IS political. And while you are at it, there is a fund-drive going on. Donate to DU.

[Mark5]

160. ok , relax

here is a clue? ok that attitude is really absurd, you need to calm down.

What needs to be politicized? the real issues! I know I don't have to point them out.

[Misunderestimator]

122. HAHAHA.... Yes... no issue at all.

:eyes:

Welcome to DU by the way.

[Mark5]

124. ok, if there is no obstruction, which there might be

the real and only issue will then when democrats are chastise for trying to turn a tragic accident into political gain...

[Misunderestimator]

127. The obstruction began with the first 24 hours of not reporting it.

How on earth could that be turned against democrats? There WAS obstruction. That's indisputable. And it certainly wasn't from democrats. You're cute.

[Mark5]

132. and sexy...

but seriously...This obstruction is this being pursued by an "independent-non-partisan" committee. If not I fear these claims , however true may fall on deaf ears.

[Misunderestimator]

133. What?

[Mark5]

136. my bad

"If" this alleged obstrcution is to be persued, investigated and proven by an "independent-comittee" the yes ofcourse persue this politically...

sorry, typing from work and trying to keep up with replies aint easy....

[Misunderestimator]

141. But who is pursuing it politically?

All I see is the white house denying.... I don't see democrats using it politically, just people asking for the truth.

We've seen already how far "independent committees" go with our bloated republican congress. How on earth do you think it would work in this case? Are you serious? We should all sit back and wait for some independent committee to evaluate what happened when Cheney shot this guy in the face? WTF?

[Mark5]

145. People asking for the truth, is fine infact

great.It should stay that way.

My fears is that people/TV analists/commentators etc will get heated and cross the line, and try to make ties between Cheney's poor gun handling skills with his ability to lead a nation at war.

The reason for the quoation marks in independent committee hinted at sarcasm, meaning a commitee no unlike the 911 commission.

[dogday]

131. They are not---the action itself has repercussions upon

the VP and The Republican Party. Dems are not saying a thing in the media. Don't need to, but Cheney needs to step up to the mic, every day he delays looks worse for him...

[Mark5]

134. EXACLTY!

let him drown in his own pool of BS.

[Bridget Burke]

139. So--how many converts have you made?

How many evil DU'ers have you convinced of the error of their ways?

(And--would it kill you to use spellcheck?)

[Mark5]

142. Actually yes, the spellcheck loads very slowly

for some reason....

I never said I am here to convert anyone or that anyone is evil....

[txindy]

150. Here's your response direct from Middle America:

From the very state where this shooting happened. From Darth's base, no less.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=417606&mesg_id=417606

[VOX]

156. The VP of the U.S. nearly killed a guy, and may have yet.

Think of it: the vice president of the United States -- the #2 man -- the second-highest ranking public servant in America actually shot a guy, nearly killing him (and now the guy's in the ICU again, hanging on for his life after a subsequent heart attack). How mind-blowing is this scenario?

Should the vice president of the U.S. (whose own health requires a medical team in constant attendance) be out with a loaded shotgun, in the twilight, stumbling around in the brush with some other fartknockers who are also carrying shotguns? Is this what we want our top public servants doing on the taxpayer's nickel? (The fact that when Cheney's out hunting, he can't be planning something more murderous is beside the point.)

And this is just for starters. The story was kept from the media for 24 hours, which is emblematic of the * administration -- conceal, lie, spin, deflect, laugh it off.

The entire incident is a case study in the "go fuck yourself" attitude of BushCo.

[im10ashus]

158. Don't waste your time KrazyKat.

There are none so blind as those who refuse to see. :-)

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

161. I wonder if the folks who start these threads think that half of DU will

go "Oh yeah! We better not politicize that! The Repubs will make us look bad for doing so! And the backlash will be TENFOLD!" LOL

[im10ashus]

162. I wouldn't begin to guess what goes on in their minds.

It is too mind-numbing to entertain such thoughts. I would love to know who nominated this thread.

[Mark5]

163. No, actaully the point is to throw

out an opinion and talk about it...

..but you are entitled to think what you want :)

people in the real world have diffrent opinions *gasp* lol

[im10ashus]

166. What a load of BS.

You stated in your OP that everyone is jumping all over this making it a partisan issue. Who is doing that? Show me where this has become a partisan issue? You are just blah, blah, blah. No substance to anything you have posted and not even a clear message. Get with it.

[Mark5]

169. hmm actaully that not what I ve said at

all, atleast not what I ve tried to say..I ll try to quote myself to prove that...

[im10ashus]

171. You don't have to try and quote yourself.

Just look at your OP. You know what's MOST revealing about you? Your obsession with this topic! The ONLY threads you are found in is the Cheney threads. Talk about someone who needs to heed their own advice. I am only surprised you haven't been tombstoned. Yet.

[Mark5]

172. Obsession?

Hardly, I do think its important to try to avoid any backlash from this.

I havent replied in other threads,mainly cause I am honestly trying to respond to everyones opinion on here.

thats all...

[im10ashus]

173. You are all over the Cheney/Whittington threads.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=418856

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=417212

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=415900

[Mark5]

177. With all due respect

I dont wish to enage in a flame fest. This was not my intention. It was only to discuss this incdent which explains my posts in other threads...

thats all

[im10ashus]

178. With all due respect.

Read your original post. Nobody has made this a partisan issue. He SHOT someone. AND he didn't have the proper permits. All the legal minds that work for the White House and nobody there knows Texas law? Give me a break. Hope you enjoy your stay here. Brief as it will be.

[stanwyck]

175. one of the reasons this story resonates with

so many is that the Bushies really rely on being seen as cowboys. Manly, rugged rancher cowboys. Cheney is tough talkin', take no prisoners, I'm in charge.
Only. He isn't. He's a fake with six deferments, yes, six, during Viet Nam who is now a major warmonger. He's a chickenhawk who didn't chose to serve his country during war. Fine. But now he's gung-ho on sending others to die in a war he promoted through lies.
Bush isn't a rancher. He's a poser. Cheney isn't a warrior. He's a fake.
It's that false macho image that so many of us are just sick of. These are the people who swiftboated the guy who actually went to Viet Nam. They paid a group of professional prostitutes to smear Kerry. And before Kerry, McCain.
So now that one of these "heroes" shows himself as a cowardly inept dick who can't even quail hunt without hurting someone, well, it resonates with people.
I trust you understand this. It's cathartic.

[JeffR]

174. Sorry folks, I'm gonna keep my powder dry

for when Cheney fires an RPG into a busload of nuns. THEN I'll get pissed.

(I don't really need to point out that the above is sarcasm. Do I?)
____________

No (elected) Democrats are "smearing" the Veep. No-one is trying to use this for "political gain". And I fail to see how this is being made into a "partisan issue".

Accidents happen. Powerful people, like any other people, can do some stupid things. But, like everything else about this (mis)administration, there's lots more going on here than meets the eye. The circumstances, details and delays associated with it are increasingly suspicious.

Underneath the easy veneer of comedy that characterizes much of the reaction, there are some serious issues - one again - about Cheney's character. Personally, this man scares the crap out of me, and he doesn't need to be pointing a shotgun at my face to make me feel that way.

A final point about Middle America, one of those vague terms like "values voters" and "special interests" that means nothing, or means a thousand things to a thousand different people. If Middle America, however the poster might define it, is going to be put off by comments on a progressive discussion forum, and NOT be put off by the gutting of the economy, the environment, education, America's prestige and too many other things to name here, I'd posit that we can write off Middle America, who by the poster's supposition are simply too stupid to live, and certainly too stupid to be even casual participants in the national dialogue.