Confusion about the relevance of the "Cheney Cover-up"

[delilah]

Hi, please don't abuse the noob, k?

Lets be clear here, I think Dick Cheney is the lowest form of pond scum on the planet. I'll spare you the rant on the evils of Cheney, as it amounts to preaching to the choir.

However...

I'm really deeply confused over the "flap" about how and when the press was notified about his hunting accident with his friend. I've spent the day reading about this incident, and I must tell you...its a damn common thing to happen when hunting, particularly with birdshot. The stuff sprays in an ungodly fashion. As for how quickly the incident was reported...I kinda get that. I know its a bit off the wall in these parts to suggest that a Repuklikan might have experienced an emotion, and its unheard of to suggest that Dick Cheney is even capable of them...but if I'd just shot one of my good friends, the last thing on my mind would be the press.

I'm also having a hard time imagining Dick Cheney drunk. Like ever. Someone who drunks while hunting, to the extent that it would impair their judgement, is very unlikely to have a long time hunting habit and NOT have winged someone else or gotten a butt fulla birdshot, themselves. If one beer while hunting quail is a crime, we are gonna have to arrest pretty much the entire state of Texas.

This is starting to feel really "Whitewater" to me, and witch hunts really detract, ihmo, from formulating, presenting and pushing forward a progressive political agenda that will knock these fat cats out of power and put the government back in the hands of those people it supposes to govern. I'm not saying we shouldnt be talking about it, but its a bit disconcerting to see the level of attention and time spent on this issue that I'm seeing. Not just on message boards, but in the press, mainstream and blogs, this thing is taking up the whole national news headline.

Meanwhile, we've got illegal wiretaps, Marines dying daily in Iraq, and the chimp wants to sell off chunks of the national parks lands to pay for schools and roads no longer affordable thanks to massive tax cuts for the wealthy.

I guess I just cant get upset that Dick Cheney shot a rich Republican lawyer from Texas. Hell, if it were anyone else, I'd probably be cheering.

[renate]

1. Welcome to DU!

:hi:

[cheezus]

4. I'll second that

But anyway....

my question isn't "why didn't he notify the press" (though his staff/the white house should have been on top of that -- which makes it look like a coverup

my question is: Why weren't the sheriff/police on the scene shortly thereafter interviewing everyone involved?

[Media_Lies_Daily]

2. Cheney....two DUIs that we know of. Next question?

[Inland]

3. the coverup and excuses are merely reinforcing what we already knew

about these people. When someone in the WH press briefing room says it seems like Katrina in the failure of the WH to get and react to information, it doesn't say it's more important than Katrina, it says people are figuring out Katrina, and Iraq, and everything else this WH does.

Besides, I can imagine cheney as adhering to the previous generations' drinking habits, just like he adheres to it's what's good for corporations is good for America and cold war habits. I think he probably has a coupla pops every happy hour.

[thebigidea]

5. as if Cheney would ever give YOU such slack

"I'll spare you the rant on the evils of Cheney, as it amounts to preaching to the choir."

if only you spared us the rant on how impossible it would be for a multiple-DUIer to be hunting drunk.

[Punkingal]

6. You know,

All my brothers, brothers-in-law, cousins, uncles, friends etc. have been hunting for the last fifty years and no one got shot. And yes, they hunt birds. It is NOT that common to shoot someone. It just isn't, and I don't know why people keep saying it is.

[thebigidea]

7. putting pellets in my family's hearts just brought us closer together

its completely normal in mainstream America to blast old men in the face with a shotgun and trigger minor heart attacks. Everybody has a big laugh about it in the intensive care ward, and we trade novelty salt-and-pepper shakers to commemerate the accident... er, not accident so much as completely normal event that happens all the time.

[BringEmOn]

8. Hey, it's a start...

"If one beer while hunting quail is a crime, we are gonna have to arrest pretty much the entire state of Texas." Anyone who drinks and hunts should be hung by their scrotum.

[July]

9. Whitewater WAS a witchhunt.

Trying to find out why Cheney appears to be above the law in this incident is something anyone who respects the law should be interested in.

And we can multitask. We're all interested in the misdeeds and fraud of the Bush administration. This small incident, though, serves to show how much power Cheney wields, and how hard it is for him to do the right thing even when dealing with a non-political problem. As far as I'm concerned, those are legitimate issues for us to discuss.

[Stephanie]

10. oh go home

really, can't you people do a little better than that?

What is "ihmo", BTW?

[thebigidea]

11. and what kind of person would describe this as a "witch hunt?"

forget the fact we've got an unaccountable VP shooting people in the face and refusing to talk about it, what concerns this guy is the "witch hunt!"

[SPKrazy]

13. ihmo

:rofl:

[Warren Stupidity]

27. IMHO

is usenet (and therefore archaic) speak for "in my humble opinion" meaning basically "don't ask me for any facts to back up what I just said".

[Stephanie]

28. yes i know

don't declare war on me! check my post again. :)

[SPKrazy]

12. Oh Brother, You Have To Ask?

:popcorn:

[SPKrazy]

14. You Are Kidding?

'The stuff sprays in an ungodly fashion. As for how quickly the incident was reported...I kinda get that. I know its a bit off the wall in these parts to suggest that a Repuklikan might have experienced an emotion, and its unheard of to suggest that Dick Cheney is even capable of them...but if I'd just shot one of my good friends, the last thing on my mind would be the press."


Emotions?

look, the guy was shot, he was immediately attended to by Cheneys cardiac staff, he was then taken to a local hospital and then life flighted to a regional trauma center in Corpus.

This is the VP of the US

and whether the last thing on your mind would be the press or not, the fact is that if it was you or I that this happened to we would have had to speak to the local Sheriff at his convenience, not ours.

give me a break

[delilah]

15. chuckle

I shoulda waited to post til I got home, lol. Thank god my boss already left for the day.

1. I'm not a "guy", thanks all the same. I'm quite female. I dont mind being flamed, but I'd prefer that it was accurate.

2. I was unaware that Dick Cheney had any DUI's on his record, but judging from the dates, they are older than I am (35). When *I* was 22, I was arrested for putting a CLUB (you know, the anti-theft device) on an unlocked police car. Gimmie SOME kinda substantiation that these very old incidents represent anything other than youthful stupidity, or I have no choice, other than to label them as logic would dictate.

3. I have multiple relatives who hunt quail every season, as well as several friends who do so. All told, about 15 people. They all tell me the same thing: "not weird or hard to imagine, this kinda stuff happens, on a large or small scale, frequently". Now, I don't hunt, nor do I ever care to, thanks all the same. However, if every experienced hunter I know is telling me "Ya, thats hunting", then I'm gonna have to credit those statements.

4. Cheezus said "my question is: Why weren't the sheriff/police on the scene shortly thereafter interviewing everyone involved?".
THAT is a damn good question. If theres a conspiracy here, thats probably where the answer lies. If anything, thats one I'd be willing to dig into and I'm pretty sad that the press doesnt seem to be willing to, that they'd rather bitch and moan about how long it was til they were told and who did the telling.

5. I specifically said, its not that we shouldnt be talking about it. Its the MASSIVE SPOTLIGHT FOCUS on this issue, which I personally view as minor, when contrasted to the fact that we are engaged in an illegal war which benefits only, apparently, Halliburton. The part I personally found most disturbing was the undue amount of attention this recieved at this morning's white house press briefing. Personally, if *I* got to ask the questions, I'd have a whole lot MORE about these tax cut extentions currently being shoved thru the house and the senate. And chopping up the National Park System (what, are they gonna ebay Yellowstone?!?!). And Scooter Libby. And...and...ya, dude, many many ands.

6. Whitewater WAS a witch hunt. The undue focus on the finances of the Clinton family burned up a tremendous amount of tax payer money and resources. Those resources, particularly FBI man power, could have been put to much better use. Like, say...keeping an eye on Osama. Insead we got a stained blue dress. Thats gotta be the most expensive dress, ever. I'd rather not repeat that mistake, not when this looks to me like a normal, if sad, hunting accident.

7. "Go home"? and assorted flames on grammar and spelling will be disregarded by this poster, as they fail to make any valid point. Neener.

8. DU might multi-task, but I'll be damned if the MSM does. One trick ponies, the lot of them.

9. People to lie to congress and the UN to justify an illegal war, people who authorize the revelation of the names of covert CIA agents, and people who make a a bagajillion dollars off said war...THEY need to be hung by the scrotum. People who drink and hunt are no threat to anyone but themselves. Let natural selection do it's job :P

~delilah (STILL A GIRL, DAMNIT)

[lonestarnot]

16. OMG

:popcorn:

[LSK]

17. i dont know if you call it a witchhunt but,

After countless things such as

1. no wmd in iraq
2. osama bin forgotten
3. plamegate
4. katrinagate
5. deficits (how boring)
6. jobless recovery
7. prescription drugs disaster
8. Abramoff
9. NSA wiretaps

and who knows what else Im forgetting, this is the type of story that can get the country interested and something might actually happen. Because we all know up until now, NOTHING can touch the Whitehouse.

So maybe this event might do something.

If the guy dies, Cheney can be charged with manslaughter according to Texas law. Is there any dispute of the law? Is there any dispute that Cheney shot him?

[MissB]

18. Welcome to DU

Enjoy your stay.

[uppityperson]

19. You do know he's vp?

There are other issues, like, have you checked out the newly released Abu Ghraib pictures and expressed your outrage to the vp and congress? Accidents happen. All the time. However, Cheney is vp, 1 step away from being "officially" the pres. That is what makes this important. And, some of us can multi=task. I, for instance, have been chuckling about Cheney, thinking that maybe this will get some conservatives to look askance as well as the whole general thing, AND have written a congressional rep today.

[SammyWinstonJack]

20. Would you really?

"I guess I just can't get upset that Dick Cheney shot a rich Republican lawyer from Texas. Hell, if it were anyone else, I'd probably be cheering."

Anyone else? A liberal for instance? I guess I don't get what you are trying too say. You'd be cheering if Dead Eye Dick had shot anyone else but a rich republican lawyer from Texas? Or you'd be cheering if it had been anyone but Cheney who had shot a rich republican lawyer from Texas? :shrug: Personally I wouldn't be cheering anyone who was unfortunate enough too get shot.

[Jacobin]

21. I've quail and dove hunted a good bit over the years

And NO, it is not a common occurence to shoot someone in the face at such close range. I'm finding that my republican hunting acquaintances are diminishing this and saying its 'no big deal' because they belong to the republican cult.

But I'll guarandamnTEEyou, that if someone THEY were hunting with ever did such a stupid,irresponsible, assinine, idiotic thing like this, at such close range, they would be fucking pressing charges, okay?

I've been 'peppered' in a duck blind by shotguns 100 plus yards away from another blind. That IS ordinary and causes no harm.

But for Cheney to suggest that it was the victims own fault 'for not announcing himself'(absolute, unadulterated HORSESHIT), and to pretend that this is some regular occurrence, and that blasting people with shotguns at close range is cute, or funny, or ordinary is OUTRAGEOUS.

[Steve A Play]

22. Several things to consider

First, this story really resonates with many of the 'common folk' who hunt and make up a good portion of the GOP's base. Most of those people can easily believe the spin offered by the Whitehouse, their party, or the media, when it comes to stories about Iraq, Iran, foreign policy, or even the Constitutionality of wiretapping American citizens without a warrant. Most people here are a little more informed than your average 'Bubba'.

When it comes to hunting, they've often been taught from an early age that they are ultimately responsible for where, when, and what they shoot, no "ands, ifs, or butts" about it. The 'spin' being pushed here is easily seen for the lie that it is and is interpreted as an insult to their intelligence. When they see such a blatant lie aimed at them, they tend to stop and think, even if just for a moment. Some of them will naturally start to question what else that they've been told was also lies. With this bunch in office, that is always a good thing!

You will never be able to push a "progressive agenda" on these people, but you can help to shatter their illusions about, and support for, their leaders by simply pointing out what they know to be lies! When 'Bubba' can see the lies for what they are he don't like it any more than any of us do.

Also please don't come here and post crap about how "its a damn common thing to happen when hunting, particularly with bird-shot, because that's just bullshot 'spin'. :)



March 14, 2005

Texas Hunting Accidents Drop to Record Low

AUSTIN, Texas – A new report shows Texas hunting accidents in 2004 decreased to the lowest amount since statistical records began in 1966. The number of people injured in hunting accidents in Texas decreased from 44 in 2003 to 29 in 2004, although fatalities increased from two to four during the same period.

More important than the annual dips and peaks, however, is the long-term trend.

“Overall, we’ve cut accident rates by more than half since the 1960s and 70s,” said Steve Hall, Texas Parks and Wildlife Department education branch chief, and author of the latest Texas hunting accident report. Hall attributes part of the steady decrease to mandatory hunter education that began in 1988.

Hall said the significant factors behind most hunting accidents have not changed much in recent years. He believes wearing blaze orange would avoid many accidents. Law violations are common in accident scenarios, including many violations for “failure to take a hunter education course.” (Any hunter born on or after Sept. 2, 1971 must pass the course to legally hunt in Texas.)

The primary reason for Texas hunting accidents remains swinging on game outside a safe zone of fire. This happens when a person points a firearm at another hunter while following a moving target, such as a flying game bird. Hunter education teaches people to set up safe zones of fire where a gun can be safely pointed whether the target is moving or stationary.

<more>

http://www.tpwd.state.tx.us/newsmedia/releases/?req=20050314c

Feb. 25, 2004, 8:56PM

Education contributes to decline in firearms accidents

By SHANNON TOMPKINS - Copyright 2004 Houston Chronicle

Texas in 2003 came oh-so-close to seeing the first calendar year unmarred by a hunting-related firearms fatality in the 38 years such records have been maintained.

Except for a single tragic accident in which a 14-year-old unloading a shotgun on his porch after shooting a squirrel in his back yard accidentally discharged the gun, killing his 11-year-old brother, no other hunters died in firearms accidents this past year.

<snip>

·Upland bird hunting accounts for a large portion of the accidental shootings. In 2003, 26 percent of the accidents involved hunting doves and 19 percent involved hunting quail or pheasant.

<snip>

"Sometimes, you just have to wonder what was going through someone's mind," Hall said. "Identifying a target before firing is a basic hunting safety rule."

<more>

http://72.14.207.104/search?q=cache:5xGFJCCJmrMJ:www.chron.com/cs/CDA/ssistory.mpl/outdoors/2420744+Texas,+%22hunting+accidents%22,+statistics&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=5

[Steve A Play]

23. OOPS! I forgot to mention

The apparent 3 hour delay between the shooting at 5:30 PM, per the Parks and Wildlife department report, and the 8:30 PM admission to the hospital per the initial press accounts. Seem like an awfully long time considering that there was an ambulance standing by in case ol' "crash cart" keeled over.

No one seems to be talking about that! Thanks for the reminder, I almost forgot about it myself. :hi:

Steven P. :kick:

[Baconfoot]

24. Say you shoot a guy in the face but you don't tell your best friend

Well, I'd imagine your best friend would be more than a bit miffed.
The best friend-relation is kind of special and it puts requirements upon one to act in certain ways. Not to act in certain ways is to disrespect the relationship.

Dick Cheney is the VP of the United States. In virtue of this fact, he has got a special relationship with the people of the United States - one which he failed to respect in not promptly disclosing that he shot a guy in the fact.

[Beetwasher]

25. THE VP SHOT A GUY IN THE FACE W/ A SHOTGUN

And tried to cover it up. And this wasn't just being grazed. He shot him full on in the face, neck and chest and he might die.

What the fuck is so hard to understand about that being a major fucking story? Yeesh. Say it again: THE VP SHOT A GUY IN THE FACE W/ A SHOTGUN AND TRIED TO COVER IT UP.

Big story. Period. People who don't "get it", don't want to "get it", ...Or are full of shit. I mean it's got all the sublety of, well, a shotgun blast to the face. I mean, seriously, WTF is there to be confused about?

[Warren Stupidity]

26. For the umpteenth time today

THE VP RECKLESSLY SHOT A MAN IN THE FACE AND CHEST. This is huge news. It is even of course much bigger than it might have been, as:
1) the police were denied access by the SS to Cheney for somewhere between 12-24 hours after the VP recklessly shot a man in the face and chest.
2) the white house went into panic mode over the fact that the VP recklessly shot a man in the face and chest, producing one bullshit story after another about the events of last saturday.
3) the weekend hunting party consisted of two rich old farts and two much younger women, nobody was married to anybody else, both men are married to women not present.
4) alcohol. Here is a shocking bit of total speculation: hunting parties are quite frequently accompanied by copious amounts of drinking, might the VP have been shitfaced when he recklessly shot a man in the face and chest?

And finally, we are in a street fight with a republican politcal machine that is determined to establish a one party tyranny in our republic. The time for measured response, and well documented issue oriented political campaigns ended about the same time that Willy Horten ended the Dukakis campaign. That was almost 20 years ago, AND WE STILL DONT FUCKING GET IT.

Let me try to explain this another way. The very successful swiftboating of Mr. Kerry's campaign was conducted without a shred of evidence other than the false testimony of a bunch of fucking liars. Thats how you destroy a candidacy and win an election: you fight dirty, you fight to win, you kick the guy when he is down.

Cheney is down. He recklessly shot a man in the face and chest. He most likely did so while shitfaced. He was probably doing so while attending a drunken orgy/hunt with his good buddy (who he recklessly shot in the face and chest.) Who gives a flying fuck if there is any evidence to prove any of this? Make them prove it aint true. Kick the fucker in the balls until he screams for mercy and then kick him again.

[txindy]

29. Here. This will help.

Read the article referenced at the link. It'll become clearer.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=417606&mesg_id=417606

This is from his base. And they're not happy with his actions.