There's no difference between homophobia, racism, or Christ-bashing.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

Just saying.

Some folks think there is a difference. That maybe one of the three, or two of the three, are "off limits" while the other is a source of endless amusement.

That couldn't be further from the truth.

Christianity isn't defined by fundamentalism, just like the gay community doesn't have "one" defining characteristic and people don't behave in "one" manner because of the color of their skin.

Just saying, based on some current threads.

:patriot:

[BurgherHoldtheLies]

1. One difference: Race and sexual orientation aren't a choice

Religion is a choice.

[jobycom]

10. Was that meant to be ironic?

Cause homophobes claim sexual orientation is a choice, and racists claim that they don't have anything against "x" people except that they choose to act "x"... And frankly I don't think people choose what they believe, I think they just believe what they believe.

The key is hatred. If you hate someone for what they are, you are a bigot, whether they choose that identity or not.

[JVS]

27. Paging Jacobus Arminius and John Calvin...

there's an issue you guys may want to fight out here.

[opiate69]

2. Wrong..

Race = Not a choice
Sexuality = Not a choice
Religion = Choice.

[jobycom]

3. I guess you mean Christian-bashing. Christ was one guy, so technically

there would be a big difference.

And you should add Southerner-bashing to your list.

[Misunderestimator]

4. Christ-bashing? What is that?

You see people bashing Christ? Or are you talking about people criticizing fundamentalist Christians who oppress those other groups? That's what I see. The difference... is that people are not generally discriminated against because of their Christianity in this country, whereas those other groups are.

Why does this subject keep coming up? I really don't understand it. Are you seriously suggesting that Christians are as oppressed as gays and other minorities? (Besides... many gays and other minorities are also Christians.)

[politicaholic]

11. Yup, Christians have just as bad as white males...

White males like me get discriminated against all the time!

qualifying statement: that is if "discriminated against" means paid and "all the time" means regularily by an employer who intends to promote us at a later date.

[Misunderestimator]

12. LOL

:thumbsup:

[FreedomAngel82]

18. And *some* people bash Christians in general

It doesn't matter what they believe personally politically. They just bash all of us together. As a Christian I've been bashed on here quite a lot of times. But of course than I turn around and am bashed by conservative Christian's for being a liberal. :eyes: You can't win!

[vi5]

5. I know this will fall on deaf ears being pointed out again...

You can't change or choose your sexuality or who you are attracted to.
You can't change or choose your race.

You can change or choose at any time whether or not to be Christian or Jewish or Buddhist or atheist or Hindu or Muslim or whatever. It's called converting. People change or adjust or alter their belief systems all the time.

I'm an atheist. I choose to be an atheist. This makes me a distinct minority whose belief system is diminished and demeaned in this country in subtle and un-subtle ways every single day. I have no right to complain about it because I can hide the fact that I'm an atheist if I want, or if those beliefs of mine are so fragile, tenuous, and weak that a few comments, innuendo, or insults make me all weepy and sad, then maybe I need to rethink them now, don't I?

[lonestarnot]

9. So ask OPer to add atheist to the list.

dilemma solved

[vi5]

14. No, because my point is that it's a choice...

All religion and belief systems are choices. None are entitled to special treatment or exemption from criticism.

[Ladyhawk]

30. I'm actually pretty sick of the Christian persecution complex.

It's stupid to think Christians are discriminated against.

Here's a little excerpt from Life in Our Anti-Christian America:

I'm certainly glad this has finally been brought out into the open. The anti-Christian bias in our society has reached absurd proportions. Consider:

1. During the 1988 election campaign, George Bush said that Christians should not be considered patriots or real American citizens.
2. Bill Clinton steadfastly refuses to give any speeches at local churches.
3. Both major political parties are dominated by anti-Christians. The Republican party, for example, gave us such hardcore atheists as Pat Buchanan, Dan Quayle, Phyllis Schlafly and Ronald Reagan. And the Democrats have given us such personalities as the Rev. Martin Luther King and the Rev. Jesse Jackson both noted for their vicious attacks on all forms of Christianity.
4. Let's talk about the media. On Sunday mornings, nearly all major television channels broadcast pro-atheist shows; it is nearly impossible to find religious programming during that time period. Further, Madalyn Murray O'Hair has her own cable TV channel, while Pat Robertson has been unable to obtain one for himself.

If your irony bone is broken, here's a little hint: The persecution actually happened to atheists, not Christians. Go read the whole list. It's enlightening.

And another thing: When someone is questioning--bashing?--your religion, it is NOT a personal attack. You are not your religion because--as many have noted--people change religions all the time. Me? I used to be a fundy Christian. Now I'm an atheist.

I get the impression that only people whose faith isn't strong and people who identify too strongly with their religion (their personalities are actually buried beneath the dogma) take issue with their faith being questioned. They're either worried those doing the questioning are right, or they feel their very person is being attacked. So it's either cognitive dissonance or cult mentality leading to this silly persecution complex because it sure as hell makes no sense.

Christians, please stop with the whining. Jesus didn't whine as much when they nailed him to the cross and at least he had a valid reason.

[lonestarnot]

16. ok then don't

[FreedomAngel82]

20. So tell me

how does it feel to be bashed for being an athiest? Do you like it very much? Questioning and constructive critisim is one thing but pure bashing is another.

[vi5]

28. As I think I tried to convey, I don't give a damn...

I know what I believe in, and my convictions are strong. Why do I care what other people think? If you respect my beliefs then great. If you don't, honestly my life goes on as it would have otherwise. My belief system or lack thereof is not predicated on someone treating me nice or with respect. It's nice if they do, but if they don't then my belief system and my faith in that belief system is strong enough to go toe to toe with that person.

Like I said it's a choice. I can choose to not discuss religion, or if the constant attacks cause me to question it or get all whiny about my convictions then I can always, at any time, without any restrictions or constraints, change them. I can start calling myself a catholic again. I can start practicing Buddhism. I can convert to Judaism. There is absolutely nothing preventing me from doing any of those things if my current belief system is so weak and fragile that a few insults get me that upset. And I know plenty of religious people who feel about their convictions and beliefs the same way I do and with the same strength. No words anyone could say about them or their religion would phase them because their faith is that strong.

[Solomon]

6. Well Goldarn! They just knocked this one right out of the park. Back to

back.

[Democrats_win]

7. Religion has "special" rights. i.e. no taxes, can't discriminate against

when hiring, and i think ministers/priests are exempt from the draft. This is not true for gay people. They can be discriminated against and fired from their jobs.

[FreedomAngel82]

21. Oh that's not true at all with religion, it

all depends on the religion and the person who owns the place. When do Muslims get time off for their holiday's?

[tridim]

8. Sexuality and race are not life choices, religion is

Ask a fundie what they think about other brands of Christianity and other religions. THEY are the ones defining their beliefs as the only true religion.. Everyone else goes to hell.

[LittleClarkie]

13. True. But to carry over one's disgust with Right Wing Fundies to

all Christians would be considered prejudice in my book, regardless of whether or not you consider religion of any sort to be a bunch of hooey.

My church is full o' Democrats, for instance. Whoda thunk it.

[vi5]

15. Well, there are several factors to this...

1)If you belief in your faith and your religion and your spirituality is strong enough, then nothing anyone says about it should bother you. If you are christian, then think about what Jesus suffered for his beliefs, and then tell me how badly you have it because a few yahoos on message boards said mean things.

2)I would think good, "true" christians would be more mad at and focus their efforts and energies on the ones who do harm under the guise of that belief system than the ones who point out what harm is being done under the guise of that belief system.

[davikim]

19. I used to wonder

why Christians (real Christians) weren't screaming and making a fuss about what the so-called christians were doing in the name of their religion and their god.
Then I thought, why aren't more Americans screaming and making a fuss about what so-called americans (repukes) are doing in the name of our country......

[FreedomAngel82]

23. Well gee I wonder why

Perhaps because we don't have a microphone and we are ignored? We're ignored on the teevee, radio, etc. You think it's easy? LOL!!! Remember the church in California that preached an anti-war message and THEY got the IRS after them? LOL! How naive of you!

[LittleClarkie]

29. 1) Are you religious? If no, then I'm confused as to why you'd

tell someone who is religious what they should feel, how they should think, how they should act, that they don't have enough faith if they dare to point out that someone is being an asshat toward them for being religious, and the like.

Sorta like a white person telling a black person about the black experience. Alittle silly no?

Meanwhile, regarding what Jesus suffered and how he dealt with it, when he was in Gethemane praying, he said, "Are we sure I gotta do this, Lord? I'd REALLY rather not" re: getting hung on a cross. If Jesus could have the occasional bad day, then I figure I can to.

Also, would you tell moderate Muslims that they should be standing up and denouncing their more radical brothers? If no, then I'm not sure why you'd expect liberal Christians to do the same to their fundy brothers.

2) It's not those who point out harm done under the guise of a belief system that get me. That would be fair criticism. Bashing is not criticism. I don't generally think of bashing as being a good thing in any capacity. It generalizes and paints with broad brushes. And as it is fair to point out the wrong being done in the name of religion, it's also fair to point out when someone is making bigotted statements. Doing so doesn't mean I'm crying about how bad I've got it or something. Just expressing myself, is all.

Bigotry is bigotry, regardless. Some have it worse than others, but I didn't think this was a comparative thing. Not as much as being lynched, mind you. But still it sucks.

You don't have to understand the choices that people make. You don't have to like the choices people make. Progressive, intelligent people who are otherwise tolerant of differences should know better than to practice bigotry. I thought we were better than that. I suppose in a way that is a prejudiced statement. But I did think we were more intelligent than that.

[vi5]

31. Well, then maybe you can define "bashing" for me...

Because when gay people say they have been gay bashed, and I've seen the results of this, it means they were physically beaten sometimes within an inch of their lives for no other reason than because of who they were attracted to.

And when black people I know say they were "bashed" because of their race, it means usually the same thing.

So by all means if when people keep saying they were "bashed" for being christian, if this in fact means that they were beaten up for no other reason than being christian then I would by all means condemn that.

But if someone, anyone chooses to believe in something they choose the good and the bad that goes with that belief system. I've never mocked anyone for believing in anything. I come from a deeply religious family and my life has been filled and enlightened by people of all faiths and belief systems.. But I couldn't imagine any of them, ever, in the face of insults or mockery, claiming they were "bashed".

And yes, I would say the same thing to anyone of any religion.

[LittleClarkie]

33. Bashing on a messageboard

I thought that's what we were talking about. Words on a messageboard. I've seen people bash each other and each other's candidates, religion, being from the South, the DLC, Kerry, Clark, Dean, etc, etc, etc.

Bashing on a messageboard isn't physical. But it can be quite ugly. But I guess that's the internets for ya.

[Solon]

34. Exactly...

Until they have been beaten up being called "Devil Worshipper", had their countries bombed for no better reason than the predominate religion in it, been killed because they wear a turban indicative of their religion, or anything of that sort, then they should just shut the fuck up!

[Zenlitened]

17. I disagree. I think you've left POWER out of the equation.

In this country, christianity wields enormous power -- that's why it's subject to criticism in a way that GLBT or racial minorities are not.

[FreedomAngel82]

25. Correction

Only fundamentalist Christians who help the Bush regime. If you can't help them you're ignored.

[Zenlitened]

35. I'm not so sure it's that simple, though. A poster earlier in the thread..

... made a comparison to 'white make privilege,' and I think there's some validity to that. Not everyone who is white and male automatically makes CEO, of course. But it's possible to start out with more points in the game simply by belonging to the group that frames our reality in so many ways. I think there's something similar going for christians.

[Solon]

22. WTF makes Christ so damned special?

HYPOCRISY ALERT LOOK HERE:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=214x49980

[seabeyond]

24. to be honest, i dont know that i have read ANYONE bash christ

i have heard people bash christianity, or the extreme in christianity. but i cant recall a single time anyone attacked jesus. and truly i read a lot of the religious threads. can you please point me to the christ bashing

[FreedomAngel82]

26. Right

Not christ himself. Just the religion itself.

[kineneb]

32. Jesus is ok, some so-called "Christians" are nuts

and do not follow what their master taught. They fail to read the NT, except Revelations, and beat up others with the most primitive parts of the OT- parts that even modern Jews have gone past. They are the hypocrites against whom Jesus railed: those who pray loudly, on the street corners. So those who condemn them based on their hypocrisy are justified. People who purport to follow a religion, but who's actions directly fly in the face of that religion's basic tenets, open themselves up for criticism. Period.