Should we take on right-wing Democrats? (MoveOn Survey)

[Sapphire Blue]

Fill out the survey @ http://political.moveon.org/whattodo/

[Greeby]

1. Hell yeah

:bounce: Hows about supporting the primary challengers who are already in the running?

[ecoalex]

17. The DLC Dems must be purged, or sign an oath for the people, not the corps

[InsultComicDog]

28. Then why the hell did MoveOn jump on the Casey bandwagon

...before anyone else did?

I'm still annoyed with that decision.

Anyway, the answer is, we should challenge DINO's in heavy Democratic/progressive districts/states.

[mom cat]

61. Reccommend that to Move On.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

A little more detail for those who don't click on the link

the point of the survey is whether we should support progressive primary opponants to incumbant right-wing Democrats. I think they are using the survey to decide where to place money in the upcoming primaries and elections.

[Sapphire Blue]

7. Text of the MoveOn email...

Should we take on right-wing Democrats?

This year our top goal is breaking the right-wing Republican stranglehold on Congress. That is our main focus every day.

It is also part of our work together to hold Democrats to their Party's highest values on issues like foreign policy, economic prosperity and good government.

That sometimes means grappling with specific right-wing Democrats who consistently side with big corporations and right-wing Republicans.

One approach is to support progressive primary challengers to right-wing Democrats. We think this makes sense but it's a big decision so we wanted to check with you and other MoveOn members. What do you think? Click below to let us know.

http://political.moveon.org/whattodo

The story about "the Democrat who sold out" has become too familiar. Too often progressives tip toe around these betrayals. But there needs to be real consequences for these Democrats.


Replacing a right-wing Democrat with a more progressive Democrat will help voters more clearly understand what Democrats stand for—and that will help Democrats win.

Many of these conservative Democrats we would challenge represent states or districts that are heavily Democratic—so we're not imperiling a Democratic majority by doing this.

Why is this a big decision? At some level it isn't—we've consistently held Democrats feet to the fire on a long list of issues. But challenging right-wing Democrats in an electoral setting would be new for MoveOn.org Political Action. That is why we're asking for your feedback. Click below to let us know what you think.

http://political.moveon.org/whattodo

Who are the Democrats we would challenge? One example is Congressman Henry Cuellar in Texas. Cuellar is a right-wing Democrat infamous for supporting the Bush agenda and Republican legislation.

He is wrong on many core Democratic issues like the war and Medicare, he often undermines key Democratic initiatives and too often pokes progressives in the eye with his votes and statements. (More on Cuellar tomorrow.)

We would start with the worst like Cuellar and work to build a progressive majority one election at a time.

A Democratic majority will be a big step towards progressive reform. But at the same time we have to work to build a progressive majority that will work towards bold reforms.

Please help by giving us feedback on this decision.

http://political.moveon.org/whattodo/

[bread_and_roses]

13. Already done and said YES YES YES

These so-called Democrats contribute to the Democratic Party being seen as weak, fractured, divided, the Party of "no ideas." They validate the anti-worker, anti-labor, anti-sane foreign policy, "unilateral Executive power," US unilateral foreign policy NeoCon agenda. They contribute to the real Democrats in Congress' lack of clout.

[movonne]

2. Already did...

[napi21]

3. I got that in my email today. I said NO!

We are not in a position to give up ANY seats right now!

Win the house and the senate back, and THEN we can attack the DINO's.

[bryant69]

5. It's a calculation

Do we have the power to take out the republicans we have a legitimate chance of unseating AND also spend our resources on those democrats we don't like very much. I don't think we do- but i could be wrong.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[merci_me]

6. Absolutely!!! Hold your nose and vote straight Democrat

The committee chairmanships depend on the numbers. Get the numbers and clean house later.

[Terran1212]

11. We need to start believing in DEMOCRACY

And voting for people who represent us, not the person with D or R.

Winning short term victories is meaningless if we lose all our values with spineless Democrats (or should I say Corporocrats?).

Get real people in office on all sides; the Dems and Reps who don't represent their voters would be gone in an instant if people just voted for what they wanted and forgot Partisanship and Partyism.

[Katherine Brengle]

32. AMEN! What good will winning do if the winners are the DLC and not

the American people.

We're just as bad as them (the DLC and the rest of the corporate whore Republicrats) if we think winning is more important than fighting. We fight to win, we don't give up to win.

[Terran1212]

59. Thanks.. amen too

[loudsue]

47. You would. I'm so frikkin' sick of you people who don't see the forest

for the trees.

:kick::kick::kick:

[mom cat]

62. Well considered primary challenges do not have to benefit the Republicans.

[mike_c]

4. thanks! and HELL YES!

eom

[Cascadian]

8. Yes!!!!!

These people are traitors and are not worthy of being Democrats. There might be a big tent but there should not be room for Quislings.


John

[neuvocat]

9. Yes.

We don't need democrats in congress who actively help out the GOP.

Here's a thought: Dems have done more to keep the republicans in power than the republicans. Its the same thing as enabling an alcoholic-sacrificing your own self-worth and identity in order to let an abuse person continue to be abusive (and the behavior always gets worse. It NEVER improves.)

[Sapphire Blue]

15. You make a very good point about being a victim & allowing the abuse...

... to continue & to escalate.

If you haven't read it yet, check out 'The Politics of Victimization', by Mel Gilles @ http://mathewgross.com/community/node/336 or http://www.refuseandresist.org/article-print.php?aid=1696 (an excellent essay).


On edit: oops, forgot the link!

[neuvocat]

20. I'm reading it right now.

Absolutely riveting!

http://mathewgross.com/community/node/336

[Sapphire Blue]

22. Yes, it is... this is one of my favorite essays on the subject.

(Thanks for adding the link! I edited my post to add your link & another one.)

[eridani]

10. Yes, but let's pick the fights intelligently

We can't go after all of them, and we need to have a really good ground game where we do act.

[DaveJ]

12. Yes...

...obviously.... the point of being a Dem is to not be a hypocrite.

[in_cog_ni_to]

14. I filled this out earlier and told them to get rid of Lieberman, Biden,

Landrieu, Johnson, Feinstein, Salazar and any other DINO who undermines our cause. I HOPE they help us. I am SICK to death of putting up with these RWers in our party.

[Tierra_y_Libertad]

16. I've already notified my DLC Dem senator that she can kiss off.

Maria Cantwell is a waste of space. A typical DLC part-time "liberal" who panders happily to the RW.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Coastie for Truth]

18. I am from Pennsylvania - I like Pinnachio

BUT I WOULD PREFER BOB CASEY -- TO RICK SANTORUM.

REMEMBER, A VOTE FOR SANTORUM (OR A VOTE AGAINST CASEY) IS A VOTE TO ORGANIZE A GOP SENATE AND A VOTE TO PUT PROFESSOR JOHN C. YOO ON SCOTUS

[PeachyDem88]

21. Of course not.

Majority first, ideological purity later.

Democratic candidates almost always have less money than their Republican opponents...

Why divide our precious, precious resources in needless primary battles?

[Sapphire Blue]

23. Why? See post # 7.

[Raksha]

43. I think that's a false choice.

Re >>Majority first, ideological purity later.<<

We at least need ideological consistency (even if not "purity") if we're ever going to GET a majority! With Dems like Lieberman and Feinstein who consistently work against our core values, it only reinforces the notion that the Dems "don't stand for anything" and the whole party comes across as weak and compromised.

[Sapphire Blue]

24. ...

:kick:

[PassingFair]

25. Yes. I'm with MoveOn from now on.

They got me moving during the election. I think
they're going to be a major force for good in
our party. They seem to be the only group willing
to take on the curse of the DINOS in our party.

Dean has his hands full in the DNC. I hope that
we will see a coalition between DFA and MoveOn.

I would work for a group like that.

[cascadiance]

54. We already may be seeing this! Check your mailbox for DFA mail...

I just got one a few minutes ago from Tom Hughes championing fighting DINO Henry Cuellar (and they call him a DINO by the way) by Ciro Rodriguez, and soliciting you to participate in a group call on Thursday. I was telling Moveon.org in my response to their solicitation a few days ago that they should get together with DFA and PDA, etc. to be more unified in finding ways to basically push out DINOs and the DLC from Democratic Party influence. Sounds like they are starting to listen to these sort of ideas.

I told a guy from the DNC solicitating donations from me on Sunday that though I support what Howard Dean has been doing, I couldn't give anything to the DNC until they take a stronger and more active role in getting rid of the DLC's influence over Democrats, and that my money would be more spent on organizations that would help do this. I was told that my phone call was being recorded. Perhaps there was enough of us saying the same thing to those solicitations that Howard Dean heard us saying in these phone calls that he felt he needed to give a call to his bro at the DFA to help them do more group pressure on the DLC and DINOs. Perhaps he doesn't have the power yet to get the DNC to be more active on this, but by activating Moveon.Org, the DFA, and hopefully other organizations to all unify in forcing these people either out or at least to drop their DLC memberships, he will have a stronger hand in staving off the DLC's agenda. Surely hope so!

Here's the text of the email I just received from Tom Hughes of the DFA:

-----------------------

Dear (me),

Since Friday, you have raised over $30,000 for Ciro Rodriguez's March 7 primary challenge against DINO (Democrat in Name Only) Henry Cuellar.

Because of your contributions, the Rodriguez campaign has been able to produce a powerful advertisement showing Henry Cuellar sitting with the Republicans at the State of the Union and getting a disturbingly warm embrace from President Bush. It will go up on air later this week.

Future Congressman Ciro Rodriguez is going to take some time out of his incredibly busy schedule this Thursday, February 16 to personally say "thank you." I'd like to invite you to join the call:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/ciro

Ciro Rodriguez is a former congressman with a progressive voting record. He's challenging Henry Cuellar for his old House seat. Why? Because "Democrat" Henry Cuellar:

Campaigned for George Bush over Al Gore
Abandoned Democrats to vote for more tax cuts for the rich
Opposed a bipartisan commission to investigate the government's response to Hurricane Katrina
Voted for CAFTA over working families
Favored school vouchers which will decimate public education
Was endorsed by the far right-wing group Club for Growth
Regardless of what the "powers-that-be" say in Washington, DC, it's time for DINOs like Cuellar to go.

I hope you'll join me on the call to meet Ciro Rodriguez and hear about his vision for the Democratic Party:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/ciro

When Ciro was in Congress -- from 1997 until 2005 -- he compiled a solid voting record and was someone we could count on. Rodriguez:

Voted against the war in Iraq
Supported a woman's right to choose
Earned strong support from our labor allies
Ciro Rodriguez is a good man. Congress needs him. And Democracy for America is proud to be on his side in this primary campaign. With your help, he can win:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/fightback

Thank you. Let's win this one!

Tom Hughes
Executive Director

P.S. The call will take place on Thursday, February 16 at 2:30 p.m. Eastern time. After you sign up, we'll send you the call-in code:

http://www.democracyforamerica.com/ciro

[PassingFair]

63. Got that e-mail this morning, Cali!

My husband thought I'd won the lottery from the "whoop" that flew out of my mouth when I read it.

The DINO acronym kinda said it all.

I'm glad we're not going to take this sitting down!

[Rainscents]

26. Hell YES!!!

We cannot continue voting for Democrats because "D"... We must start voting in real progressive Democrat who value real democratic party!

[sandnsea]

27. Most people would try to beat a Republican first

But building cred by beating Dems, that's a way to go too I guess.

[Selatius]

48. A progressive is a progressive is a progressive

If one owes allegiance to principles first and if one considers himself an American first before a Democrat, then obviously there will be those even within the Democratic Party one finds objectionable.

However, the reality of the situation, the two-party duopoly on power, dictates that one accept Democrats who hold economic views that are considered rightwing or even far rightwing than a Republican. (Just look at John Murtha's views on everything besides war) An answer to the problem would be to oust the Democrat with a more progressive Democrat, but things are rarely that simple. (See Paul Hackett v. Sherrod Brown) Then there's the fear of replacing a rightwing Democrat who can hold the seat in the general with a leftwing Democrat who is more likely to lose the seat in the general election for lack of name recognition compared to the previous Democrat or the Republican opponent.

It's one reason why I'm not impressed with the two-party system, and if we didn't exist under such a constraint, I would be a member of a socialist party or a Social Democrat. At least in a system of proportional representation, different groups would be able to negotiate and form alliances on their own terms, not be forced to fight each other inside one box.

[sandnsea]

51. "socialist or a social democrat"

So no, a progressive is not a progressive. And like so many other DUers who aren't really Democrats and get mad because the Democratic Party isn't Green or Socialist, I say again, go make a third party and win something. Nothing succeeds like success.

[Selatius]

53. Your distinctions on progressives seems rather small in detail

If a person believes in universal health care, superior public education, better labor standards, better environmental standards, a living wage and is not a member of the Democratic Party, then he is not a "progressive"? Is that what you are saying? Must one be a registered Democrat to be considered a progressive? Last time I checked, it was people who believe in social democracy and democratic socialists that the majority of people agree with on, say, universal health care, minimum wage, and better labor standards, etc.

We would form our own parties IF IT WEREN'T FOR THE ELECTORAL SYSTEM'S DESIGN. Electoral College + First-past-the-post/winner-take-all voting (i.e. no Instant run-off voting) + single-seat district representation (instead of proportional representation) = ONLY two parties viable.

It's Duverger's Law. (Have you heard of it?)

It is so easy for you to stand there and say to start a third party from the perspective of a Democrat, but given the way election laws are written, that's not likely to happen. Have you ever wondered why countries like Germany and Switzerland and France are able to have several parties share power instead of having a two-party duopoly?

Study their election laws and the way they represent people, and then come back to me and tell me to start a third party. Actually, I would turn the challenge back on you and say you should start a third party in the US with the current electoral system and tell me how difficult it is because we already walk that mile. You have yet to walk in our shoes. (Or have you?)

The Democratic Party isn't a party in any real sense of the word. It is a coalition of proto-parties at best because so many people don't agree even on basic principles. The only reason why so many different groups are under the Democratic banner is simply due to the nature of the election system, not necessarily because of the merits of Democratic politicians in general. If those laws were changed to allow proportional representation, you'd have several groups splinter off within several years, and you'd end up with various labor parties, Social Democrats, Christian Democrats, Greens, and various democratic socialist parties.

Until such a time, I am registered as a Democrat because that's the only real option given to me in this country.

[Gelliebeans]

29. done

[Gronk Groks]

30. Yes, DINO's like Lieberman are a joke...

...and a bad one at that. I let them know that Paul Hackett's forced withdrawal is just Politics as usual.

We can't have politics as usual. If we keep thinking inside the Beltway we will lose the elections and the country will lose its Democracy.

[Katherine Brengle]

31. Abso-fuckin'-lutely--I've already done the MoveOn thing tho... n/t

[threadkillaz]

33. Sure.

The primaries is where the battle is now.



Right Howard?

[Kurovski]

34. Oh, holy shit YES. Let me at that survey

...and here I go.

[Kurovski]

35. Done.

[Sapphire Blue]

36. ...

Did you add a comment as enthusiastic as the one in post # 34 :)

[Kurovski]

45. "I support all returning Iraq vets as long as they're for getting out of

Iraq, damn it to hell!"

OK, There was no "damn it to hell" part.

[Kurovski]

64. That was "...vets running for office...", to be specific.

[KingFlorez]

37. Here we go

Some peoples definition of a right-wing Democrat is very narrow and sometimes not accurate. Stop fighting other Democrats, it's not helping any of us.

[Behind the Aegis]

39. Amen!

We can't 'clean house' when we don't run it!

[Sapphire Blue]

41. Would you prefer to discontinue primary elections & allow a committee...

... to select the party's nominees? What exactly do you think a primary is if not Democrats fighting other Democrats?

[KingFlorez]

42. Whatever

I'm just not for starting messy primary challenges that weaken incumbents that were in safe seats which is what some people want to do.

[Sapphire Blue]

44. If you don't want "messy primary challenges that weaken incumbents that...

... were in safe seats", you could be keeping DINOs in power. Some of us don't want to keep them in power. Perhaps their own voting records are weakening them.

[understandinglife]

38. You mean Vichy-Repuke corporatist collaborators -- you betcha.

Peace.

[progressoid]

40. Yer damn skippy

[populistdriven]

46. Keep nominating this!!!

[Oak2004]

49. My not-quite-Democratic two cents on the matter

I am a former Republican who lived through the extremist takeover of my party. I fought it for as long as I could, but eventually left the party when it became obvious the fight was hopeless. I can't bring myself to become a Democrat, though I certainly know what my other option is in the voting booth, and that's the reason you'll find me here.

Knowing what I know of the extremist element that captured the Republicans, and knowing what I know of what is happening within some elements of the Democratic Party "leadership", I truly believe that there are persons close to or within the Democratic Party leadership who knowingly sabotage the Democratic Party on behalf of the extremists. Look very closely at the "personal" friendships that exist between some Democrats and hard-right Republicans like Karl Rove who came through the College Republicans.

I'm a former College Republican from the same era, and I can personally testify to the fact that the culture of the College Republicans was one of subterfuge and dirty tricks (as many others have documented). I am, personally, ashamed of some of what I got myself into in those days, but Karl Rove and his ilk have no such shame. The CR culture views political conflict as total war, not as a sporting contest. CRs do not just up and make friends with their enemies, like team members on opposing sides in a football game who can leave the battle on the field. Anything and everything goes. Such persons would salivate at any opportunity to infiltrate and/or sabotage and/or subvert the Democratic Party.

Wherever there is a personal connection between someone known to be steeped in the CR "dirty tricks" culture, and a supposed Democrat, be very suspicious. The Democrat is either very slow-witted about being conned and used by his/her Republican "friends", or isn't really a Democrat at all.

I wish I could put my finger on something more concrete about what's making the hair on back of my neck stand up when I think about the state of the Democrats today. It's just that I see so many suspicious patterns of that remind me of what happened during the strangulation of the Republican Party and of classic CR dirty tricks. Be very wary, and do not hesitate to rid yourselves of Democrats who look and act suspiciously Republican.

[Kurovski]

52. Thank you, Oak2004

Now someone will propose the theory that that in itself is a "plot" to weaken the Democrats. But their theory will be wrong.

Take someone like Joe biden. No matter how he has voted on other proposals, when he voted for the Bankruptcy Bill, he voted as a Republican who prefers to have corporate rule in America.

That one bill will have dire--yes, dire--consequences for many Americans. It will be the mother of great suffering. And it simply did not have to be that way.

[Pharaoh]

50. K&R

[derby378]

55. I think we should target "compromiser" Democrats instead

Zell Miller is a right-wing Democrat. Joe Lieberman is a left-wing Democrat. Both, however, support the Republicans in the Senate more often than not.

[Sapphire Blue]

56. "Joe Lieberman is a left-wing Democrat" ???

[derby378]

57. Okay, you got me...

I'll put him down as a "centrist."

[cascadiance]

60. How about "corporatist" instead of either "left wing" or "centrist"

I think that's more accurate, even though the DLC doesn't want you to see it that way (which is why they try to claim the false label of representing moderates or centrists).

Supporting the Bankruptcy bill isn't a centrist position, it is a corporatist position (especially bank corporations)...

[lostinacause]

58. From a strategic standpoint it is foolish to take on RWDs.

From an economic standpoint it really depends on how good the people (or institutions) are at determining the goals and effect of economic policy. The best types of economic policies are not institutionalized control (unions, transfers, controls, and so on). They are policies that do the job without the institutional and incentive incompatibility. Most people do not have the technical knowledge to differentiate between people lead by special interests or people lead by the goal of effective economic policy. If the information that individuals making the decision have about the economic effectiveness is good then from an economic perspective it is possible to choose the correct type of policy for a given set of goals. If the information is bad then allowing people who are closer to the right to be part of the party and the debate is beneficial because information is gained about their characteristics in that setting. It also makes the objectives of the party easier to pursue. (Also based on my judgment of people's preference, they are typically economically closer to the center then they think they are.)

From a social standpoint it really depends on the beliefs of the individuals.

[Sapphire Blue]

65. kick

:kick: