I don't think that Cheney's victim was 30 yards away.

[benburch]

Now, I've done a bit of skeet shooting and hunting over the years, and I think I have some sense of the spread bird shot has at 30 yards in full choke. I just don't think that it would be such a tight pattern at that distance! Nor do I think that it would have as much penetrating power at that distance as we see here.

So, I'm asking those of you who have also fired shotguns to comment on this? Am I remembering this correctly?

[ewagner]

Former bird-hunter here....

I agree....

I used a single-shot 20 guage and 30 yards was "iffy" range for me

[ET Awful]

1. That was my first thought as well.

If he was 30 yards away, he wouldn't be in the hospital.

[janx]

2. YES.

And that thought just occurred to me also. I have shot skeet and trap, and I have fired a 28 gauge shotgun. It's an elegant firearm.

There's no way that poor Harry was 30 yards from the muzzle of that shotgun. The 28 does not have the wide spread that the 12 does, but still...I don't think the guy was 30 yards away. Not at all.

Keep in mind, too, that the hunting accident report was made and signed DAYS after the incident. "30 yards" was what somebody SAID.

[Wickerman]

3. I think you are correct

and others agree:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x426585

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x410189

[Punkingal]

4. My son who is a gun collector, gunsmith, and hunter....

Agrees with you. The further away the victim, the wider the buckshot would be spread, and you're right...it would not have as much penetrating power.

[kentuck]

5. The farther the distance, the more scattered the buckshot...

If the wounds are fairly close together, then the distance could be calculated.

[rocktivity]

6. Here's a video

from a newspaper photographer link

:headbang:
rocknation

[rpgamerd00d]

8. He was not 30 yards away - proof here

"Katharine Armstrong, owner of the ranch where the shooting occurred, said it happened toward the end of the hunt, when it was still sunny but as darkness was encroaching and they were preparing to go inside. She said Whittington made a mistake by not announcing that he had walked up to rejoin the hunting line, and Cheney didn't see him as he tried to down a bird.

Armstrong said she saw Cheney's security detail running toward the scene. "The first thing that crossed my mind was he had a heart problem," she told The Associated Press."

If the first thing she saw was Cheney's security detail running toward the scene, and she thought Cheney'd had a heart attack, then she WASN'T an eyewitness and shouldn't be talking in the press about what happened when she has no freaking idea. If she didn't see or hear anything, which she indicates by saying she thought Cheney'd had heart problems, then how the freak does SHE know if Whittington announced himself or not, or even if Cheney had seen him and shot anyway? She DOESN'T KNOW what happened, but Cheney has her out there spinning the press to cover his mess.

==============================

Katharine Armstrong was the one that said he was 30 yards away.
The above statement ***PROVES*** that she was *NOT* an eyewitness - SHE WASNT THERE.


edit - oops this was supposed to be reply to main thread.

[gasperc]

17. darkness approaching? I thought it occurred around 1-2pm

I need to find a link

[efhmc]

9. Doesn't that video support the 30 yds (90ft) theory?

[rocktivity]

11. Not if Whittington's shot pattern was tighter.

Also, keep in mind that Wittington was not shirtless--the pellets went through his layers of clothing AND skin, which is why is heart is being threatened.

:headbang:
rocknation

[havocmom]

7. Havocdad is a damned fine shot- lots of experience

He says no way in hell would you get that tight a pattern and that penetration into an adult human at 30 yards.

Think about it. If the birdshot did that much damage at 30 YARDS, there would never be any bird parts large enough to pick up!

[corkerjoe]

13. Dick shoots man trying to take his quail

Not only is the pattern to tight The shot was to close to the
ground to be shooting at a flying quail. He must have been
impaired to shoot that low to the ground, and not see a full
grown man.

[NightOwwl]

16. Exactly. Why the hell was he pointing straight ahead?

Maybe this is normal, but I seriously doubt it.

BTW, Welcome to DU. :hi:

[havocmom]

23. To be fair, if the birds were just flushed (in this case, RELEASED)

they start out low. Quail spend a LOT of time on the ground and often that is where they take flight from.

You don't think a guy like Cheney would let them get far before he pulls the trigger? ;)

[newyawker99]

25. Hi corkerjoe!!

Welcome to DU!! :toast:

[tularetom]

10. No way was he 30 yds away

I think a 28 ga shell has about 300 size 7 1/2 pellets in it (all 28 ga shells are 2 3/4 in long). Probably an improved rather than full choke for quail which has an overall spread of about 3 feet at 30 yards. But Whittington had 200 pellets in him which indicates either a tighter pattern or a shorter range. Based on the fact that he was hit in the face neck and chest I'm guessing that the pellets were in an 18 to 24 inch circle when they struck him. At that rate the shooter would be no more than 20 yards away and probably more like 15.

[Bandit]

12. I have actually shot geese with a 28 guage shotgun

I have shot them dead at over fifty yards. Dead... with a lot of bee bees inside their body. Thirty yards is quite close IMO. I am totally amazed he did not get killed outright..

[NightOwwl]

14. Can any hunters answer my question? ...

He shot this man full-frontal so that means Cheney was pointing the gun straight ahead of him.

Is this normal? Because I would think that in order to shoot birds one would need to aim up in the air.

[GumboYaYa]

18. It depends, sometimes the birds fly lower to the ground,

particlularly right after you jump them up.

What is unusual to me is that they kept hunting when Whiittington went to get the bird. Ususally, the hunters walk three abreast. Left shoots left to center, center shoots center, and right shoots right to center. We always had a rule that you stayed in that configuration and if it broke, no shooting was allowed. I thought that was how everyone hunted.

[NightOwwl]

22. Thanks for the info...

The more I learn, the fishier this story sounds.

[GumboYaYa]

15. A 28 Gauge has a tighter shot patten than most shotguns.

I'm not sure that I agree with this arm chair analysis. It seems at least possible that he was hit with the lower right quadrant of the pattern, hence 220 pellets and not 700. If the pattern represents roughly a third of the total shot pattern, then the distribution looks about right for a 28 gauge at thirty yards.

Pet peeve, it's bird shot, not buck shot. If Mr. Whittington had 220 buckshots in him, he would be dead.

[converted_democrat]

19. My dad says something doesn't smell right..

First off, I know the guy is older, and his skin and body are weaker that the average young healthy person, but I don't understand how that kind of shot could penetrate at that distance..(deep enough for the shot fragments to get into the veins) My dad is an avid hunter and he says they are either lying about the distance or shell size.

On edit- I don't think it could've penetrated the skin in the first place, but he had clothing on too. No way it could have gone through the clothing and the skin.. (They said the upper torso was hit, so it would've had to go through clothing.)

[Cleita]

20. Speculation going on Al Franken right now that the

gun was fired in anger and was not an accident. It could have been that Cheney felt dissed or disrespected somehow and he shot Whittington. Also, that there must have been alcohol and women involved. Al's guest is basing his analysis on data gathered over the years about these kind of shootings. His name is Warren Kyle (sp.?), of I believe he said the Harvard School of Health.

(Edited to correct spelling of proper name.)

[Neil Lisst]

21. I agree, and I think he had to have been hit by 50 or more pellets.

Let's assume for the sake of analysis that he caught 1/5-1/3 of the total pellets. One of the pellets went deep enough to get into his heart. Don't believe this "one pellet worked its way into the heart." Bullshit! It was already there, and the heart is a tough muscle, maybe the toughest in the body. Ever cut up a beef heart? Easily the toughest muscle in the body.

Cheney could not have had the gun more than level when he fired, to present the pattern and intensity found in this matter. Anything closer than 20 feet and the guy would probably be dead.

I'd guess 30 feet, maybe 40.

[Garbo 2004]

24. Whittington's friends apparently don't think he was 30 yards either,

according to an article in Slate:

"At what range was Harry Whittington hit? The official story is that the blast from the vice president's shotgun hit Whittington at a distance of 30 yards. Hunters at the Vaughn Building are skeptical. The hunt took place on a cold, windy afternoon. Whittington and his fellow hunters were probably wearing warm clothing—say, a jacket and a flannel shirt. Cheney was using a 28-gauge shotgun, a smaller-diameter firearm with pellets smaller than BBs. Whittington's friends question whether the pellets could have penetrated his layers of clothing and skin at that range. Yet two pellets lodged against his larynx, another was in his liver, and another migrated into the heart muscle, causing the heart attack. The pattern of wounds was between the lower chest and the forehead, a pretty tight zone for shot of 30 yards. If the range was considerably less than 30 yards, then it is likely that Whittington's injuries were worse than the initial statement by Katharine Armstrong indicated. (The blast "knocked him silly," but "he was fine.")
http://www.slate.com/id/2136206/