I just had a horrible thought.... (re: impeachment)

[Rosco T.]

If things look like Chimpo will be impeached... what would stop him from...

a) MIHOP
b) declare war on his next target (IRAN/KOREA)
c) suspend the constitution due to a 'national emergency'...

C) would stop any impeachment proceedings/hearings (or anything else the Congress would do) to a screaming halt yes?

or is my tinfoil too tight?

[CarbonDate]

1. They've already suspended the Constitution, in their minds.

You've heard their justification for the domestic spying w/o warrants, yes?

[Double T]

2. With bush at the controls, anything is possible and the worst is probable

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

3. You Forgot Declaring Martial Law nt

[Rosco T.]

7. Martial Law = Suspend the Constitution...

same difference in their minds.

[sam sarrha]

14. they still have the Articles of Confederation,used before the Constitution

was written. basically martial law.. it has been used sense.. it was never repealed.

[sweetm2475]

4. I am very worried about the same thing

We need to look outside the box with these people, even if it requires some extra tinfoil.:tinfoilhat:

[bbinacan]

5. No it's not on too tight. I

wouldn't put anything passed him.

[jsamuel]

6. he practically already has done that...

he is ignoring the constitution with the NSA spy stuff already
Iraq sounds like #2

[ddeclue]

16. That's very bad but not nearly as bad as what is being suggested.

No one would let this happen - do you think the Republican Congressmen want to be told to go home, sit down, and shut up and that there will never be a chance for THEM to be President? Do you think the Surpreme Court would be willing to go home sit down and shut up? I really doubt it. I also doubt that the military would be willing to go along with this either.

Therefore - hat on too tight.

Doug D.

[ddeclue]

8. Too tight...

That wouldn't happen because the Congress wouldn't go along.. As crazy as they are, they're not as crazy as Bush.

Doug D.

[Rosco T.]

You miss the point... if Shrub suspends the Consitution...

.. then the Congress is powerless.

[onenote]

13. again, explain what "suspending the constitution" means

in practical terms. He rules by fiat? The armed forces do his bidding to lock members of Congress out of the Capitol? Fantasy land.

onenote

[sweetm2475]

17. dream much?

A Presidential Executive Order, whether Constitutional or not, becomes law simply by its publication in the Federal Registry. Congress is by-passed. Here are just a few Executive Orders that would suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights. These Executive Orders have been on record for nearly 30 years and could be enacted by the stroke of a Presidential pen:

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10990 allows the government to take over all modes of transportation and control of highways and seaports.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10995 allows the government to seize and control the communication media.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10997 allows the government to take over all electrical power, gas, petroleum, fuels and minerals.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 10998 allows the government to take over all food resources and farms.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11000 allows the government to mobilize civilians into work brigades under government supervision.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11001 allows the government to take over all health, education and welfare functions.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11002 designates the Postmaster General to operate a national registration of all persons.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11003 allows the government to take over all airports and aircraft, including commercial aircraft.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11004 allows the Housing and Finance Authority to relocate communities, build new housing with public funds, designate areas to be abandoned, and establish new locations for populations.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11005 allows the government to take over railroads, inland waterways and public storage facilities.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11051 specifies the responsibility of the Office of Emergency Planning and gives authorization to put all Executive Orders into effect in times of increased international tensions and economic or financial crisis.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11310 grants authority to the Department of Justice to enforce the plans set out in Executive Orders, to institute industrial support, to establish judicial and legislative liaison, to control all aliens, to operate penal and correctional institutions, and to advise and assist the President.

Without Congressional approval, the President now has the power to transfer whole populations to any part of the country, the power to suspend the Press and to force a national registration of all persons. The President, in essence, has dictatorial powers never provided to him under the Constitution. The President has the power to suspend the Constitution and the Bill of Rights in a real or perceived emergency. Unlike Lincoln and Roosevelt, these powers are not derived from a wartime need, but from any crisis, domestic or foreign, hostile or economic. Roosevelt created extraordinary measures during the Great Depression, but any President faced with a similar, or lesser, economic crisis now has extraordinary powers to assume dictatorial status.

Many of the Executive Orders cited here have been on the books for over a quarter of a century and have not been applied. Therefore, what makes them more dangerous today than yesteryear? There has been a steady, consistent series of new Executive Orders, originating from President Richard Nixon and added to by Presidents Ronald Reagan, Jimmy Carter and George Bush that provide an ominous Orwellian portrait, the portrait of George Orwell's 1984.

THE EROSION OF INDIVIDUAL RIGHTS

A series of Executive Orders, internal governmental departmental laws, unpassed by Congress, the Anti-Drug Abuse Act of 1988 and the Violent Crime Control Act of 1991, has whittled down Constitutional law substantially. These new Executive Orders and Congressional Acts allow for the construction of concentration camps, suspension of rights and the ability of the President to declare Martial Law in the event of a drug crisis. Congress will have no power to prevent the Martial Law declaration and can only review the process six months after Martial Law has been declared. The most critical Executive Order was issued on August 1, 1971. Nixon signed both a proclamation and Executive Order 11615. Proclamation No. 4074 states, "I hereby declare a national emergency", thus establishing an economic crisis. That national emergency order has not been rescinded.

The crisis that changed the direction of governmental thinking was the anti-Vietnam protests. Fear that such demonstrations might explode into civil unrest, Executive Orders began to be created to allow extreme measures to be implemented to curtail the demonstrations. The recent Los Angeles riots after the Rodney King jury verdict only reinforced the government's concern about potential civil unrest and the need to have an effective mechanism to curtail such demonstrations.

Here are the later Executive Orders:

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11049 assigns emergency preparedness function to federal departments and agencies, consolidating 21 operative Executive Orders issued over a fifteen year period.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 11921 allows the Federal Emergency Preparedness Agency to develop plans to establish control over the mechanisms of production and distribution, of energy sources, wages, salaries, credit and the flow of money in U.S. financial institution in any undefined national emergency. It also provides that when a state of emergency is declared by the President, Congress cannot review the action for six months.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 12148 created the Federal Emergency Management Agency (FEMA) that is to interface with the Department of Defense for civil defense planning and funding. An "emergency czar" was appointed. FEMA has only spent about 6 percent of its budget on national emergencies, the bulk of their funding has been used for the construction of secret underground facilities to assure continuity of government in case of a major emergency, foreign or domestic.

* EXECUTIVE ORDER 12656 appointed the National Security Council as the principal body that should consider emergency powers. This allows the government to increase domestic intelligence and surveillance of U.S. citizens and would restrict the freedom of movement within the United States and granted the government the right to isolate large groups of civilians. The National Guard could be federalized to seal all borders and take control of U.S. air space and all ports of entry. Many of the figures in the Iran-Contra scandal were part of this emergency contingent, including Marine Colonel Oliver North.

The Federal Emergency Management Agency has broad powers in every aspect of the nation. General Frank Salzedo, chief of FEMA's Civil Security Division stated in a 1983 conference that he saw FEMA's role as a "new frontier in the protection of individual and governmental leaders from assassination, and of civil and military installations from sabotage and/or attack, as well as prevention of dissident groups from gaining access to U.S. opinion, or a global audience in times of crisis."

The Violent Crime Control Act of 1991 provides additional powers to the President of the United States, allowing the suspension of the Constitution and Constitutional rights of Americans during a "drug crisis". It provides for the construction of detention camps, seizure of property, and military control of populated areas. This, teamed with the Executive Orders of the President, enables Orwellian prophecies to rest on whoever occupies the White House. The power provided by these "laws" allows suspension of the Constitution and the rights guaranteed in the Bill of Rights during any civil disturbances, major demonstrations and strikes and allows the military to implement government ordered movements of civilian populations at state and regional levels, the arrest of certain unidentified segments of the population, and the imposition of Martial Law.

When the Constitution of the United States was framed it placed the exclusive legislative authority in the hands of Congress and with the President. Article I, Section 1 of the United States Constitution is concise in its language, "All legislative powers herein granted shall be vested in a Congress of the United States, which shall consist of a Senate and House of Representatives." That is no longer true. The Bill of Rights protected Americans against loss of freedoms. That is no longer true. The Constitution provided for a balanced separation of powers. That is no longer applicable.

Perhaps it can be summed up succinctly in the words of arch-conservative activist Howard J. Ruff. "Since the enactment of Executive Order 11490, the only thing standing between us and dictatorship is the good character of the President, and the lack of a crisis severe enough that the public would stand still for it."

http://www.sonic.net/sentinel/gvcon5.html

:spank:

[ddeclue]

18. Sorry it doesn't if Congress chooses to override it.

And the Courts can also slap down E.O.'s. E.O.'s aren't nearly as all powerful as you think they are. If you don't like one, take it to court and get it declared unconstitutional.

If you were right, then the President could become King simply by issuing all sorts of E.O.'s.

If an E.O is illegal or unConstitutional, it can in fact be grounds for an impeachment. Just check out Nixon's AOI.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[onenote]

19. thanks for stepping in

You are absolutely right, of course.

[sweetm2475]

21. Oh, that's right

I have lots of faith in THIS congress, too.:wtf:

[ddeclue]

24. I don't trust'em either but I do trust them to want to keep their own pwr.

If Bush does what you want and they acquiesce then they are powerless and out of a job.

Do you really think that Bill Frist wants that? John McCain, Trent Lott?, Dennis Hastert? Tom Delay?
the mostly GOP Supreme Court and any of 300+ other Congressional and Senate Republicans?

No I count on their OWN greed and power-lust to keep Bush from going that far because if he does, he does so only by encroaching on their territory.

That's how the Founders designed the machine after all. They didn't count on everybody being a good guy just on making them have to fight each other to gum up the works.

Doug D.

[sweetm2475]

25. I agree with you on that...

It's the ONLY THING that i believe can save our country as we know it if there is another major "terrorist" attack or anything like it. :shrug:

[ddeclue]

15. The President has no power to totally suspend the Constitution.

The military would not follow him that far nor would the Congress or the Courts. Even LINCOLN never went THAT far during the Civil War.

He would be arrested and impeached immediately and that would be the end of it.

Doug D.
Orlando, FL

[kstewart33]

9. Your hat's too tight.

As long as the Repubs control the House of Reps, there is no chance that he will be impeached. Our best hope is to keep him politically weakened for the rest of his term. An indictment of Rove would help.

By the end of 2006, few in Congress will care about what Bush thinks. He will officially be a lame duck, and all eyes will be on 2008.

[bryant69]

10. Well it is possible

which is one reason that impeachment isn't as likely i'm afraid.

The Republicans would have to really get on board with it, and many if not most of them are completely in the tank for Bush.

Bryant
Check it out --> http://politicalcomment.blogspot.com

[stepnw1f]

11. Fear is Your Enemy!

In fact, fear is exactly what got this country into trouble, and the Bush administration would only be happy to see Dems saying what you just did.

[sweetm2475]

23. Ignorance is a bigger enemy than fear

:hi:

[onenote]

12. too tight

Not sure what you expect him to MIHOP, so its hard to judge.
If he's facing impeachment, then he doesn't have Congress behind him. And without Congress behind him, he can't start another war. To saying nothing of the fact that he won't have the troops without a draft.
Finally, exactly how does he "suspend" the constitution. Again, if he's about to be impeached, he's already lost Congress' support. And as crazy as folks think that Scalia and Thomas may be, even with Alito, he couldn't get a majority of the Supreme Court to go along.

onenote

[AntiCoup2K4]

20. This scenario is all too possible. Which is why it's absolutely crucial...

...that not only Democrats, but Republicans speak out about how out of control these fuckers are. Right wingers in Congress should not assume they will share in Chimpy's dictatorial powers. In fact, the most failsafe MIHOP/LIHOP situation that BCE/PNAC could produce would be a "terraist" attack on a full joint session of Congress, like maybe an attack on the Capitol during the State of the Union (for which Chimpy would be conveniently late - unless the cabal decided even he was expendable)

Look at the results:

Nation in even worse shock than 9-11-01, if possible
Martial law declared nationwide
No interference from Congress, seeing as most or all of them would be dead
Immediately blame it on Iran or whoever is convenient and plan for the next war, with not even the pretense of "checks and balances" in the way.

Are they capable of this? Given all the Bush Criminal Empire has done over the last 70 years, that's really a silly question.

[KittyWampus]

22. Rosco, there are Republicans trying to get rid of these insane crooks

there are people at all levels of intelligence, military, justice communities doing their best.

IMO, Junior and his cartel are becoming increasingly isolated.

[AntiCoup2K4]

26. One would hope so, but why aren't they speaking up?

As sick as this reality is, a Republican speaking in favor of Chimpeachment is going to be taken more seriously at this point, since the Whore Media has already painted any Democratic moves toward the process as "political revenge" for Blowjobgate, never mind the Fraudministration's long list of crimes.

Like it or not, the ball is in the Republicans' court for now. The question is, do any of them have the guts to play it?

[ddeclue]

27. It's coming...the Conservative establishment is in backlash mode.

George Will - basically calling for impeachment
John Dean - the same.
Bob Barr - called it unconstitutional
Lindsay Graham - wants it investigated
Arlen Specter - same
Colin Powell - says no reason warrants could not have been obtained and law followed, cut out of loop by Bush.

have all spoken out against this.

So has the Cato Institute (much as I detest them)..
and the Federalist Society..

The more that is revealed, the more Bush's support will crumble. As more Republicans find that they themselves were spied on the more trouble Bush will be in.

Doug D.

[newswolf56]

28. Your tinfoil hat might be too loose, not too tight:

Congress is already powerless, which was never more vividly demonstrated than by this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2018147

And the corporatists aka fascists aka the Republican Party have been conspiring to turn America into the Fourth Reich ever since FDR's time:

http://www.huppi.com/kangaroo/Coup.htm

Which now they are doing -- precisely why the administration decided to bypass the Intelligence Court with unrestricted and illegal spying:

http://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/122005E.shtml

Even as they build a private army of $30,000-per-month mercenaries (lest the military prove unreliable):

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=364&topic_id=21071

Further inflame white America's already genocidal racism:

http://www.pkarchive.org/column/091905.html

And agitate the Christian Fundamentalist ranks from which they will muster their stormtroopers:

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/12/a_nation_under_god.html

With more details at:

http://www.yuricareport.com/Dominionism/DirectoryRiseOfDominionismInAmerica.html

No wonder Al Gore -- in what is probably the most deliberately censored speech in U.S. political history -- told the Associated Press investigative reporters symposium that American liberty is in greater danger than ever in history (what Gore actually said, slightly different from what is in his written text):

http://www.tpmcafe.com/story/2005/10/5/14301/6133

I believe these sources together indicate the extent to which we are already in well over our heads. That is why it is so desperately necessary to take back Congress in 2006 -- a necessity to which (it is now ever more infuriatingly evident) the Democratic Party remains indifferent. Until that happens, impeachment is merely pie-in-the-sky. And to me it seems increasingly probable the Democrats WON'T take back Congress in 2006, for reasons summarized here:

Contrast the Republicans' pre-1994 thematic unity (Contract on America etc.) with the total disarray of the Democratic Party today: not only an abysmal lack of common theme, but disunities within disunities -- the Democratic Leadership Council and its Fifth Column efforts on behalf the corporate/fascist agenda; the associated neutralization and purge of progressives; the bitter and venomous hostility of the anti-gun fanatics toward those of us who own firearms; male indifference to women's legitimate fears over curtailment of reproductive rights (which for a woman is ultimately nothing less than denial of the right to be); other schisms based on racism and/or sexism; the snide refusal of bourgeois Democrats to acknowledge the reality of class struggle (a huge ideological divide that includes not only the issues of welfare, health care and public transport but is also an infuriating insult to every one of us who is poor or near-poor -- i.e., among the 40 percent of all Americans who are increasingly victims of capitalism); the escalating hostility between progressive advocates of public-school reform and defenders of the (ever-deteriorating) educational status quo -- I could go on and on but I'm sure you see the point.

Hoping desperately I am wrong, I therefore predict we will NOT take Congress back in 2006 -- not for want of public support, but rather from chronic inability to articulate a theme for the public to mobilize around -- this failure of leadership combined with the persistence of ideological fanaticism and the resultant survival of the "I'm blue-collar so both parties hate me but at least the Republicans will let me keep my guns" meme. Thus too there will be no impeachment.



Edit: typo.

[KoKo]

29. I think your "tinfoil" is WAY too Tight....maybe you are sort of too

hyper about this shit? :shrug: