The number of projectiles in the shell that Elmer Cheney fired

[Lasher]

You might have noticed that some have assumed Cheney was using steel shot. This is because of a Texas law that prohibits the use of lead shot while hunting waterfowl. These are good laws, as ducks and other waterfowl have been known to ingest lead pellets, which has a negative impact on their health.

Quail, however, are not waterfowl. They are upland game birds, so the steel shot law does not apply. Since the performance of lead projectiles is superior to that of any other type in common use, Elmer Cheney was almost certainly using #7.5 lead bird shot.

For your forensic enjoyment, please refer to the shot size table at this link:

http://www.shotgunworld.com/ammo_s082000.html

A 28 guage shell is loaded with 3/4 ounce of shot. There's approximately 350 shot per ounce of #7.5 lead shot, so there was a total of about 263 shot in the shell that Cheney fired.

[JuniperLea]

1. Cool....

Is there a chart that shows the distance/choke ratio? We will know how far away he was by the pattern on the old guy... assuming a moderate choke anyway.

[Lasher]

10. That is a very good question, Juniperx

I have not so far located a chart that conveys the information you seek, but will advise if I do.

For now, here are some views I offered in a separate DU message string:

A test firing with a similar gun, using a similar load, can establish the maximum distance between a shooter and his target. This is done by varying the range until the number of shot in a silhouette target equals the number of projectiles in the victim. This method can only establish the maximum range, however, because Cheney might not have caught Whittington in the center of his pattern. Further, we are being denied even a reasonable estimate of the number of shot that hit Whittington.

More telling is the depth of penetration. The bird shot did not decide to take a stroll from just under Whittington's skin, into his heart tissue, as earlier reports would have us believe. At least one of the bird shot penetrated enough to actually impact his heart. Logic therefore strongly suggests that the range was closer than 30 yards. It was not as close as 5 feet, because you could read the New York Times through the hole that would have left.

I am no forensic expert, so that is as close as I can narrow down the range. But I can assure you that what we are seeing is a coverup.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=427689&mesg_id=428416

I encourage you to review all messages in that string, as there are several that will help improve your understanding of this issue.

[Lasher]

15. Here is the best answer I can manage

Shotgun Patterns

Patterns are normally expressed as a percentage such as 50%, 60%, 70% etc. This is the commonly accepted method comparing pattern density. In a 50% pattern ½ of all the pellets contained in the shell will strike inside of a circle of 30 inches in diameter. To find the percentage of any given load divide the number of hits inside the circle by the total number of pellets contained in the shell. You can obtain the approximate number of pellets any given load will have from a shotgun shell reloading book or you can open a couple of shells and actually count the pellets. All pattern testing is done at a distance of 40 yards with the exception of cylinder and skeet 1 chokes in all gauges and all chokes for the .410 bore which are normally measured at 25 yards.

http://www.fieldandclays.com/expert_chokes.htm

Please refer to the table at the above site.

A Modified or Improved Cylinder choke is recommended for quail.

http://www.internetarmory.com/shotgun_hunting.htm

If you will grant me the assumption that Cheney was using one of these chokes, a maximum of 50% to 60% of the projectiles could have been contained in a 30 inch radius at 40 yards, assuming a perfect shot (forgive me for this terminology). In the case in question, this would equate to 132 to 158 shot at that yardage.

[JuniperLea]

17. We can assume something else I think

The pattern of the shot hit the face, chest, and low enough to hit the liver. What would you say that was from tip of head to the liver? And you have to think in terms of penetration as well. Shot looses its velocity over distance. This shot obviously broke the skin and entered below the skin in some areas.

Just more thoughts:)

[Lasher]

18. Aha, great point!

The diameter of the pattern had to be at least 20 inches, because that's about how far it is from your liver to the top of your head. I don't know what range would produce a 20 inch pattern. I wish I could do some test firing of my own, but I have only 12 and 16 gauge shotguns, and both are full choke. A 28 gauge is uncommon around here.

The depth of penetration might be a more precise indication of range than the shot pattern, but using that to accurately calculate the distance is beyond my meager abilities. My understanding of this factor has changed, as has the story we've been getting. First it was, "Ha ha, he can walk it off", and more lately we realize both the heart and liver were penetrated.

I've not yet reviewed the police report, but one would hope that it would identify the range, based on a physical measurement of the distance between where Cheney and Whittington were standing at the moment of impact.

Deductive reasoning is fun.

[Dunvegan]

2. Unless Dick Fudd was usning the even more effective Depleted Uranium shot

[papau]

3. AND ONLY 200 PIECES OF SHOT ARE IN HIS LIVER/HEART/ FACE

guess he must have been standing a long way away -not

I'd guess 30 feet at most......

Which means he is dead or near death.

:-(

[livetohike]

4. So it is possible that Mr. Whittington has 263 pellets in him

As someone who has never fired any type of gun and therefore, knows nothing about this, thank you for posting this info.

Poor guy. I hope he is going to be okay. This is a shame.

[Lasher]

6. Whittington has UP TO 263 pellets in him

I was just trying to help clear up some of the confusion. Unless Cheney shot him more than once, he could not have 300 or more shot in him, as I have seen speculated.

[Sammy Pepys]

5. BUT...

Just because you might be able to use lead shot for upland game doesn't mean that's the only thing anyone uses.

[Lasher]

8. You are correct, Sammy

That is why I did not state my assumption as an absolute. As a lifetime hunter, however, I can assure you that is extremely unlikely that a hunter would use anything but lead, when it is both legal and ethical.

[Sammy Pepys]

9. I just think...

...with this whole situation, that it's fine to theorize a bit, but we need to keep the larger picture in mind. And until we actually get some kind of indication of what kind of ammo Cheney was using and what kind of threat it poses to Whittington beyond the obvious, that's it's an unnecessary distraction from the real issues here. Gotta stay focused.

[Lasher]

11. I just gave you an indication of what kind of ammo Cheney was using

One person's unnecessary distraction is another's gem of truth.

Lasher

[Sammy Pepys]

14. You surmised what he was using...

..but you don't know for sure.

I'll stick with the more critical issues here.

[seabeyond]

7. like they would even be concerned with lawwwww.. bah hahahaha

[Lasher]

12. That's probably the most disturbing thing about this cartel, seabeyond

They really think they are above the law. And recent history has shown that they are right.

[seabeyond]

13. yes it is. i asked husband today at lunch if anyone talked about

cheney shooting a 78 year old man in the face, seeing how i dont get out much. nope he says. people dont talk politics. well i say, that isnt really politics. more like hey, you hear cheney shot a 78 year old man in the face

i asked if he thought five years ago we would all be quiet about our vp shooting a 78 year old man in the face.

an eerie silence

but then again, not like i get out much

[Kansas Wyatt]

16. 'Elmer Cheney' - ROFLMAO

:rofl:

Elmer Cheney fits perfectly!

:rofl:

[Lasher]

19. I tried to add this to the list of Cheney nicknames in the Research

Forum, but that thread is locked now.