Partial birth abortion law question.

[TNDemo]

I was in a nursing class today and abortion was being discussed. Don't even get me started on all the crap I had to listen to. What I want to ask (and can't seem to find on the internet) is at what gestational age is abortion illegal? The teacher said abortion in legal in all 50 states up to 40 weeks of gestation. I was thinking there was a cut-off way before then. What is the real situation?

[Beaverhausen]

1. First of all, it's Late Term Abortion

there is no such thing as "partial birth abortion."

[KingFlorez]

8. right

The right-wingers make up words and some people actually start using them

[cynatnite]

2. In some it's 12 weeks and others 14 to 16 I believe...

I could be wrong, but when I had mine the limit was 12 weeks. The doctor told me that the farther along the fetus is, the more dangerous it is for the woman.

on edit: I should add that late term abortions are very rare and done when the life of the mother is at risk. Partial birth abortion is a repuke term. Don't let anyone tell you different.

[Rainscents]

3. I believe, it's at 12 or 16 weeks for abortion...

and for partial ( there is no such a thing as "Partial), it ONLY when womens life is in danger and this is VERY rare abortion (usually, still birth or something horrible happen to mother or baby).

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

4. I would hope to hell abortions were illegal except for life threatening

factors any time after the 2nd trimester, but I don't factually know the law off the top of my head with this. I hope that's the case though.

[Book Lover]

14. May I ask a clarifying question?

Would you also allow a woman to choose abortion over carrying full-term if it was only discovered in her late second-early third trimester that she was carrying a deformed fetus - I mean something on the level of an anencephaly situation. That kind of pregnancy does not threaten the woman's life, but would result in the birth of someone who would live for hours at most. What say you?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

24. I Meant Life Threatening Factors For Both.

I will also expand that to include other severe fetal abnormalities as well as circumstances where it may not be life threatening to the woman, but would cause serious health or physical implications such as being unable to bear children in the future.

I guess the clarity I should provide is an otherwise healthy fetus growing inside a woman who if carried to term would suffer no additional consequence than those typical of delivery should not have legality to be aborted after the 2nd trimester. I'm not sure if that's already the law or not though I hope it is. Even regardless, the cases must be so miniscule where a request for a 3rd trimester abortion is made when there is no risk to the fetus or mother. I admit I don't have the numbers, but logic would tell me that the majority of 3rd trimester abortions would be due to necessity rather than the mentality of "I just don't want it".

[Solon]

26. That's the problem with unnecessary laws...

They become all too restrictive, and can risk lives. I say its up to the medical ethics boards for doctors along with the doctors and patient's themselves, no one else. As you said, the amount of such abortions is so miniscule that it really doesn't warrent passing laws to restrict it.

[Book Lover]

34. Thanks for your clarification

I must say that I differ in my opinion, but I appreciate your reply.

[Warpy]

16. I take it you have little real knowledge of reproduction beyond

the mechanics of sex, because the reasons for late term abortion (most of which happen well before viability) are numerous and tragic.

For instance, some happen when an ultrasound after 12 weeks discovers a birth defect that would make the fetus nonviable were it carried to term, like anencephaly (no brain), or a condition where the brain forms outside the skull, or any of a number of major birth defects which we can't repair with intrauterine surgery. Forcing a woman to carry such a fetus to term only to watch it die within hours is cruel beyond belief to both parents and fetus.

Some happen when the mother becomes ill or injured and continuing the pregnancy would threaten her health and ability to have future children. It's not always life threatening. Sometimes it's the dire consequences for a woman's health that are the issue.

Some happen when it's a young mother who thought the pregnancy would go away if she just didn't think about it. This sort of magical thinking is what we see in eleven year olds, and yes, we're seeing eleven year olds pregnant. Would you endanger a little girl's health her whole life by forcing her to endure a pregnancy and childbirth her body is not prepared for?

Most late term abortions (which, by the way, are a tiny percentage of all abortions) are done on pregnancies that were wanted and for reasons anyone but the most callous or willfully ignorant people would agree with if they bothered to educate themselves.

At some point, men are going to have to trust the wisdom and ethics of health care providers, and the question of late term abortion (more properly second trimester abortion) is one of those times. The last thing anyone needs is for a government of ignorant men to step between a woman and her physician and tell her what care she is allowed and forbidden.

As for third trimester abortions, we call those premature births because every attempt is made to ensure the fetus survives after the age of viability even when accident or illness make it necessary to terminate the pregnancy.

[wicket]

22. Thank-you Warpy

:hug:

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

25. I Clarified Here (above)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=434692&mesg_id=435169

I should've been more specific originally. My point was that I would hope 3rd trimester abortions are illegal when it comes to wanting them for reasons unrelated to the health of either party, such as just a "I just don't want the child" request. I agree, chances are those requests wouldn't even be granted, but I would think law would even dictate it couldn't happen for those reasons.

[Warpy]

27. Sometimes you have to trust the ethics of the medial profession

and this is one of those times.

I can't think of any physician who would abort a healthy fetus near term because of a friviolous reason given by the mother. Such a woman would get a psychiatric evaluation, not an abortion.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

28. I agree.

[TNDemo]

5. Where can I find the legal facts?

I am not sure that I will actually show them to the teacher (maybe if I grow some testicles but I think she has a set too) but I would at least like to show them to my classmates.

[Beaverhausen]

6. NARAL might be a good place to look

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/

[Solon]

9. Federal law is under a legal injuction at the moment...

States differ, however, but look here.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Abortion_in_the_United_States#Legislative_developments

[mzmolly]

13. Post 11 and I would DEFINITELY inform your teacher.

He/she needs an education.

[LeftyMom]

7. 40 is term and your teacher is grossly misinformed

Under Roe, states can't prohibit first trimester abortions, although several states never changed thier laws. After that legal abortions become restricted in most states.

http://womensissues.about.com/gi/dynamic/offsite.htm?site=http%3A%2F%2Fhometown.aol.com%2Fabtrbng%2Findex.htm

[Beaverhausen]

12. well technically...

...a late term abortion can be done on a full term baby. The only reason that would be done would be if the baby was already dead and if labor would injur or kill the mother. It is very rare.

[cynatnite]

21. I never know who to blame for this...

corporate media for not doing a damn thing to educate the public or the public for not educating themselves.

[Katherine Brengle]

33. both. n/t

[Extend a Hand]

10. there is no such thing

as a 'partial birth abortion'
that is RW framing. See the article 'The "Partial-Birth" Myth'

http://www.slate.com/id/2090201/#ContinueArticle

Restrictions on abortion vary by state. At the NARAL site below you can
see what the restrictions are by state.

http://www.prochoiceamerica.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/

History of Abortion:
http://www.feminist.com/resources/ourbodies/abortion.html

[mzmolly]

11. That's bologna.

http://www.crlp.org/pub_fac_abortion_laws.html

See here:

Albania
Armenia
Austria*
Azerbaijan
Bahrain
Belarus
Belgium*
Bosnia-
Herzegovina–PA
Bulgaria
Cambodia*
Canada°
Cape Verde
China°–S
Croatia–PA
Cuba–PA
Czech Rep.–PA
Dem. People’s Rep. of
Korea°
Denmark–PA
Estonia
France*
Fmr. Yugoslav Rep. Macedonia–PA
Georgia
Germany*
Greece–PA
Guyana†
Hungary
Italy–Δ/PA
Kazakhstan
Kyrgyzstan
Latvia
Lithuania
Moldova
Mongolia
Nepal–S
Netherlandsv
Norway–PA
Puerto Ricov
Romania*
Russian Fed.
Serbia
& Montenegro–PA
Singapore***
Slovak Rep.–PA
Slovenia–PA
South Africa
Sweden**
Switzerland
Tajikistan
Tunisia
Turkey–‡SA/PA
Turkmenistan
Ukraine
United States–v◊PA
Uzbekistan
Vietnam°

Note: All Countries have a gestational limit of 12 weeks unless otherwise denoted. Gestational limits are calculated from the first day of the last menstrual period, which is generally considered to occur two weeks before conception. Statutory gestational limits calculated from the date of conception have thus been extended by two weeks.

∆Gestational limit of 90 days
†Gestational limit of 8 weeks
‡Gestational limit of 10 weeks
*Gestational limit of 14 weeks
**Gestational limit of 18 weeks
***Gestational limit of 24 weeks

R-Abortion permitted in cases of rape
R1-Abortion permitted in the case of rape of a woman with a mental disability
I-Abortion permitted in cases of incest
F-Abortion permitted in cases of fetal impairment
SA-Spousal authorization required
PA-Parental authorization/notification required
◊= Federal system in which abortion law is determined at state level; classification reflects legal status of abortion for largest number of people
x-Recent legislation eliminated all exceptions to prohibition on abortion; availability of defense of necessity highly unlikely
S-Sex selective abortion prohibited
U-Law unclear

[Book Lover]

15. Not so

Planned Parenthood here in CA will perform termination services up to 14 weeks.

[mzmolly]

17. Do you have a link?

While we are only talking a 2 week difference here, but I'd like to see some documentation.

[Book Lover]

18. When you are pregnant and don't want to be

it is not "just" two weeks.

http://plannedparenthood.com/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/pub-abortion-first-trimester.xml

[mzmolly]

23. I'm pro-choice.

I think your having an argument with yourself here.

[Book Lover]

35. You are not the only one reading my reply (nm)

[mzmolly]

32. 12 vs. 14 weeks.

From my post above: Note: All Countries have a gestational limit of 12 weeks unless otherwise denoted. Gestational limits are calculated from the first day of the last menstrual period, which is generally considered to occur two weeks before conception. Statutory gestational limits calculated from the date of conception have thus been extended by two weeks.

[madfloridian]

19. This page from NARAL should answer your questions...

It shows what is going on the various states. I think your teacher would be surprised at how effectively some states have been doing away with this right in bits and pieces.

http://www.naral.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/

State profiles
http://www.naral.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/state-profiles/

Maps and charts
http://www.naral.org/choice-action-center/in_your_state/who-decides/maps-and-charts/

Maps and Charts
Abortion Bans

Biased Counseling and Mandatory Delay

Emergency Contraception (EC)

Freedom of Choice Acts

Insurance Coverage for Contraception

Insurance Prohibition for Abortion

Low-Income Women's Access to Abortion

Protection from Clinic Violence

Refusal to Provide Medical Services

Restrictions on Young Women's Access to Abortion

State Constitutional Protection

[Maat]

20. Google "Roe v. Wade."

The initial decision specified that abortion was basically unimpeded during the first trimester, could be regulated more extensively by the states during the second, and could be prohibited by the states during the third, but had to have an exception for the life/health of the mother.

"Casey" changed the standard from a trimester-focus to a viability focus.

These decisions regulate how far each individual state may go in terms of its regulation.

The PBA was the first time Congress attempted to regulate abortion on a national level; it was quickly stayed pending judicial review.

It has been struck by three states: (1) due to lack of a health exception for the mother. I also belief that Congress regulating this nationally, based upon its Commerce Power, is borderline in terms of constitutionality.

That's my understanding, based upon what I learned in law school (quick and dirty summary). Corrections, anyone?

[Maru Kitteh]

29. From Planned Parenthood's website

When are abortions performed?

Most abortions — nearly 90 percent — are provided in the first trimester — the first three months of pregnancy. Fewer than 11 percent take place in the second trimester. Abortion is very rare and only done for serious health reasons after 24 weeks.

The Earlier, the Better

Try to arrange an abortion as soon as you have made up your mind. Earlier abortions are easier and safer than abortions later in pregnancy. They also cost less.
http://www.plannedparenthood.org/pp2/portal/files/portal/medicalinfo/abortion/pub-abortion-q-and-a.xml


40 states have laws prohibiting abortion after viability
POST-VIABILITY ABORTION BANS

Forty states and the District of Columbia have laws banning most post-viability abortions (AL, AZ, AR, CA, CT, DE, FL, GA, ID, IL, IN, IA, KS, KY, LA, ME, MD, MA, MI, MN, MO, MT, NE, NV, NH, NY, NC, ND, OH, OK, PA, RI, SC, SD, TN, TX, UT, VA, WA, WI, WY).
http://members.aol.com/abtrbng/stablw.htm

Viability is generally accepted to be highly unlikely to ever cross the threshold of less than 23 weeks.
A fetus is viable when it reaches an "anatomical threshold" when critical organs, such as the lungs and kidneys, can sustain independent life. Until the air sacs are mature enough to permit gases to pass into and out of the bloodstream, which is extremely unlikely until at least 23 weeks gestation (from last menstrual period), a fetus cannot be sustained even with a respirator, which can force air into the lungs but cannot pass gas from the lungs into the bloodstream.(4)
http://www.ppacca.org/site/pp.asp?c=kuJYJeO4F&b=139571

Most states put viability at 27 or 28 weeks. In other words your teacher is wrong as hell.

[baby_bear]

30. States may restrict abortion during the third trimester for the fetus

per Roe v. Wade.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roe_v._Wade
<snip>
State laws outlawing abortion were set aside by the Court, permitting abortions throughout pregnancy. Noting that induced early abortions had become safer than childbirth and holding that the word "person" in the Constitution of the United States "does not include the unborn," the court defined, within each of the three stages of pregnancy, the reciprocal limits of state power and individual freedom: (a) During the first trimester, the abortion decision and its effectuation must be left to the medical judgment of the pregnant woman's attending physician. (b) After the first trimester, the State, in promoting its interest in the health of the mother, may, if it chooses, regulate the abortion procedure in ways that are reasonably related to maternal health.(c) For the stage subsequent to viability, the State, in promoting its interest in the potentiality of human life may, if it chooses, regulate and even proscribe abortion, except where it is necessary, in appropriate medical judgment, for the preservation of the life or health of the mother. In 1980, however, the Court refused to apply this ruling to require the federal government to bear the cost of abortions for women who could not afford them.
</snip>

b_b

[Katherine Brengle]

31. Please don't use their language. It's "late term abortion" not "partial

birth abortion."

As far as I know, this procedure is never performed unless there are extreme circumstances--if the mother is going to die if it is not done or if the baby is either dead already or severely damaged (for instance, if there were major development problems during the pregnancy).

This practice is EXTREMELY RARE. It is not a normal procedure. Most abortions are done during the first trimester.