Look what I found! Birdshot Penetration Tests

[Avalux]

How did #7.5 birdshot travel a distance of 30 yards, penetrate layers of clothes and the chest wall to lodge in the pericardium? This is the part of the story that bugs me the most.

I've found this site with some interesting information on penetration tests. If correct, Cheney was a hell of a lot closer than 30 yards.

Birdshot as a Defense Load
I have had a lot of questions, summed up as follows: How effective is birdshot (#4, #6, #8, etc.) as a defense load?

We have done tests with various birdshot loads. Birdshot penetrated through two pieces of drywall (representing one wall) and was stopped in the paper on the front of the second wall. The problem with birdshot is that it does not penetrate enough to be effective as a defense round. Birdshot is designed to bring down little birds.

A policeman told of seeing a guy shot at close range with a load of 12 gauge birdshot, and was not even knocked down. He was still walking around when the EMTs got there. It was an ugly, shallow wound, but did not STOP the guy. And that is what we want... to STOP the bad guy from whatever he is doing. To do this, you must have a load that will reach the vitals of the bad guy. Birdshot will not do this.

In fact, tests have shown that even #4 Buckshot lacks the necessary penetration to reach the vital organs. Only 0 Buck, 00 Buck, and 000 Buck penetrate enough to reach the vital organs.

http://www.theboxotruth.com/docs/bot3.htm

[JuniperLea]

1. Good work!

Thank you!

[Richard D]

2. Great find

Recommended

[tridim]

3. I hope the Mythbusters are paying attention

This is right up their alley.

[Richard D]

4. dang

Creepy picture of * you have there.

[Avalux]

5. Yes - that's a great idea!

I feel sure someone will simulate the 'incident' before too long. :hi:

[October]

62. Excellent idea!

Maybe they can re-do the "magic bullet" theory while they're at it, as well.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

6. yes, recall that 00buck shot is about .38caliber

in size.
That is why it is so good at stopping big things.

getting hit with 8 .38's simultaneously will spoil your day.

[Avalux]

7. And #7.5 is so small,

doesn't seem to penetrate far even at close range. I'm really scratching my head now.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

8. It is designed to NOT penetrate, it is just supposed to

disrupt flight feathers, and fall out when the carcasses are washed.

[Avalux]

9. Then how did one of them end up in Whittington's heart?

Was Cheney drunk, stumbled and his gun discharged at close range?

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

13. Well, they do travel. Especially if one found its way

into a major vein in the neck, or into the lung somehow.

[Avalux]

True, but -

it wouldn't have ended up lodged in the pericardium, or outer heart muscle.

[txindy]

22. I've wondered about that. It seemed odd that it could get there.

Not the way they say, anyway. So, no way, eh? Poor Harry. Shot and then deserted by his so-called 'friends'. Talk about insult added to injury.

[Julius Civitatus]

67. Remember, the birdshot had to penetrate the winter clothing and

safety jacket (or hunting vest) of the victim, then break through the skin, then flesh and bone, and a few pellets end up lodged in the heart, liver and larynx of this man...

FROM 30 YARDS AWAY(more or less 90 feet).

Call it for what it is: BULLSHIT!!!

And notice the shot pattern of the pellets in all the graphics they have shown in the media. All the pellets that hit Whittington are within a circumference of barely 1 foot. Do they really think we are completely stupid?

THIS TOOK PLACE AT CLOSE RANGE (my guess, 3 to 10 feet, max). There's no way that type of gun and birdshot can cause that much damage at 30 yards (90 feet). It's just impossible.

[never cry wolf]

81. Are we sure they were clothed?

I don't know what the weather was like but they were moving around by car. Just because they say what he was wearing doesn't make it so. Strip hunting? A little nudie mixed doubles? Hell, for all we know it happened in a bedroom at the ranch.

[Julius Civitatus]

74. Here's what 30 yards may look like...

in the field:



The story they are selling just doesn't make much sense.

[jbnow]

53. No, it's reported it went through

chest wall, between the ribs.

[txindy]

65. Seriously? Because that took a powerful shot to do that. Or a close one.

Bitterly cold here on Saturday. Lots of clothing and/or heavy jackets for all. That a shotgun blasted birdshot through the chest wall means it wasn't done at a great distance. Not as claimed, anyway. Not through all that material.

[Julius Civitatus]

68. Good point! -- and at 30 yards, no less!!!

At 30 yards (90 feet) I would expect the pellets to have lost most speed, and also they would have spread over a much, much wider area.

They want us to believe all the pellets landed in the same area of his torso after being shot from 90 feet away with a weak shotgun (nicknamed "the ladygun"). Sure, sure.

This is what blogger JC General calls the "Magic BB Scenario":





Come on! It was at CLOSE RANGE!!!

[jbnow]

70. Seriously

looking quickly here is first link I found
http://www.indystar.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060215/NEWS06/602150460/1012

In this case, Oz said, birdshot most likely pierced the pericardium, the protective sac that surrounds the heart, and might have lodged in the heart-muscle wall.

But they have been very clear about it when discussing issue on news.

[bleever]

25. This gets my vote as the most likely scenario.

Even if he wasn't too drunk, he would never let it be known that he had stumbled with a gun and shot someone; that would be just too much for him to bear.

[Patsy Stone]

31. Nah, I'm sure he could bear it

It was just too much for him to admit, you mean. :)

[bleever]

44. Right. Macho man, global titan, can more easily admit to

swinging at a bird and hitting a hunting companion while sun-blinded than tripping and discharging his weapon while falling on his fat ass.

Think of the geopolitical ramifications!

[Patsy Stone]

46. Now, that's the right kind of thinking!

You left out carousing with the US Ambassador to Switzerland and Lichtenstein, over Valentine's Day. Voila! An International Man of Mystery!

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

37. Shorten the range.

[goodboy]

66. yep. Or, he was screwing around, drunk, and thought the gun wasn't loaded

[librechik]

63. the cardiologist said the piece in the heart was was 5mm

that seems big

[berni_mccoy]

10. If this is accurate, it MAY NOT HAVE BEEN BIRD SHOT IN CHENEY'S GUN!

From the same site:

"I saw a gunshot victim, about 5' 10" and 200 lbs, taken to the operating room with a shotgun wound to the chest. He was shot at a range of six feet at a distance of just over the pectoralis muscle. He was sitting on his front porch and walked to the ambulance. We explored the chest after x-rays were taken. The ER doc had said 'buckshot' wound, but this was obviously not accurate.

It was # 6 shot. There was a crater in the skin over an inch in diameter. When the shot hit the level of the ribs, it spread out about five inches. There was ONE pellet that had passed between the ribs and entered the pericardium, but not damaged the heart at all. As you say, 'use birdshot for little birds.'"

THAT WAS at SIX FEET DISTANCE!

Cheney would have had to have shot Whittington WITH THE BARREL IN WHITTINGTON'S FACE!!!!

[Avalux]

11. I can't vouch for the validity of the site -

but it seems to be pretty comprehensive. This is freaky.

[carolinalady]

12. Jack Cafferty requested that Wolf bring on a gun expert because

he smells B.S. in the thirty yard story too. I hope Wolfie takes him up on it.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

14. Yeah, like that will happen

Wolfy will have someone from the 700club or the PTL network explain how loss of faith was how the accident happened.

[txindy]

17. Yeah, and it'll be Whittington's "loss of faith" that they'll blame.

I have no trouble believing they'd say that, either. They're just that :crazy:

[GreenPartyVoter]

15. Question? Could it have gotten into the heart had it entered through the

face or neck into a major blood vessel?

[Avalux]

18. Not really.

From everything I've read, they've described the pellet as being lodged in the pericardium, so I'm assuming it go there by penetration, not passive movement in a blood vessel. Doesn't seem possible.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

19. yes

[Wickerman]

16. Point Blank

You almost have to wonder what the hell went down out there at that ranch, don't ya? He had to be damn close to get the penetration we seem to be hearing about.

Check out this link, too.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x410189

[Avalux]

24. Wow - thanks for the link.

That's an awesome assessment - the guy really knows his stuff. I'm with you - what the hell went down out there at that ranch?

[Wickerman]

30. Brainshrub re-wrote it and added pictures

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x428407

so it is all a little more comprehendable. Someone is lying and who has the rep as a liar?

anyone?

[Avalux]

40. Thanks!

Are you talking about Rove? Gosh - it could be any one of them!

[txindy]

20. I love this place. Best researchers ever!

:kick: and the 5th rec! :patriot:

[thecrow]

21. I keep hearing about "5mm" shot pellets.

Why?
This would be pretty much bigger shot.

[Blue Belle]

23. Doesn't the caliber of the weapon matter too?

Admittedly, I know nothing about rifles or hunting... but this test was done with a 12 gage gun. The one that Cheney shot his victim with was a 28 gage gun. Wouldn't that make a difference in penetration?

[Avalux]

33. It might, I'm not sure.

A 28 gauge has a smaller barrel; the shell is more slender and the payload (amount of birdshot) is lighter. Good question.

[Richard Steele]

84. No, all shotguns can fire identical shot at identical velocities.

A 12 gauge simply fires a LARGER NUMBER of shot pellets than a 28 gauge;
but it fires them at the same velocity.

A bigger concern would be the TYPE of shotgun ammo being compared here.
It seems that the tests mentioned above were using some very low-powered ammo,
and a different shot size from Cheney's gun.

And, I want to add to the thread in general that
there is NO WAY Cheney's victim was as close as 5-10 feet.
No bird gun on earth can spread it's shot so quickly.

At a range of 10 feet, the pellets are still pretty much
a uniform mass, and typically create a single entrance wound
2-3 inches in diameter.

Whittington was likely shot at 30-40 feet;
we could estimate the distance better if
we knew what size choke Cheney's gun had.

[Blue Belle]

85. Thanks!

Your answer was very helpful. I know nothing about hunting and I knew someone on the DU would have great insight on this.

[XOKCowboy]

26. The questions keep on coming...

This was my thought all along. Something is just too darn fishy here. OK it's south Texas at dusk. his time of year it's low to mid 70s in that area so probably no coats, just blaze orange vests and say denim shirts. That's still a lot of fabric to penetrate, plus the chest wall, miss the ribs and penetrate the pericardium. With birdshot. At 30 yards.

The more I read and think about it the more plausible it seems that it was a close range blast, 10 feet or less. I doubt if a bird was involved at all. Strange, very strange.

[Avalux]

29. I'm in South Texas - sunset is at 6:20 pm.

The incident occurred (supposedly) at 5:50 - too damn close to dark.

[XOKCowboy]

42. Who hunts quail at DUSK??

Which is one more thing that's fishy about this deal.

[Avalux]

43. No one. Not a responsible hunter anyways. n/t

[Metta]

27. Good stuff. Thanks.

:thumbsup: This means that Cheney was just about standing on top of the guy.

[Patsy Stone]

28. Not only have I, too, been all about this question

I have a second one to add:

If the birdshot worked so well on a human body at that range, what must it do to those quail? Wouldn't they be practically disintegrated? What would be left to collect? A pile of loose feathers and some feet?

Good find, thanks!

[Avalux]

32. Well, you aren't supposed to shoot quail at close range -

they're small birds. I guess that's the point...it seems Cheney was closer than 30 yards.

[Patsy Stone]

34. Sorry

I should have added :sarcasm: to that last post.

Thanks again for the great research!

[Avalux]

36. lol!

I'm being too serious I guess. You're welcome! :hi:

[mom cat]

35. What about the one in his liver?

[Avalux]

38. Has that been verified?

I read it earlier in a thread, but didn't know it had been corroborated. If it's true, that does complicated things a bit. :wow:

[Patsy Stone]

47. Here's the HuffPo piece

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/rj-eskow/cheneys-chappaquiddick-i_b_15711.html that the earlier thread was based on. I'm still looking for another source.

[Avalux]

52. Here's a post with a slate link -

also in his larynx, apparently.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=428745&mesg_id=430746

:hi:

[understandinglife]

39. Since I first heard 28 gauge, I suspected the distance to be 15 yds, ...

... or less. The little info we now have on his injuries and clothing would suggest less. I suspect he could easily have been within 10 yds..


Peace.

[sendero]

48. I'm thinking more like 10 feet..

... for #7 pellets to get into the heart.

[understandinglife]

59. No argument from me. "within" 10 yds. was my conservative way ...

... of speculating less than 30 feet....

That they think they can lie to a "culture of guns" about stuff like this is the ultimate irony, for me.

I last touched a gun, in the military, more than 30 years ago. But, I was raised in a typical southwest Texas family that had lots of guns and I was shooting all kinds of guns before I was a teenager. Folk who know guns, know that all that we've heard from Cheney & Co., and their various spinsters, is the lamest of bullshit.


Peace.

[Patsy Stone]

Or 10 feet!

:hi:, ul!

[understandinglife]

58. In_deed, likely.

:hi: Patsy!!


Peace.

[tridim]

78. You know, in a normal crime scene wouldn't the authorities...

figure out exactly where they were standing and the distance they were apart? It wouldn't be that hard, just find Cheney's footprints and the pool of blood and then draw a measuring tape between the two.

This thing stinks.

[bmbmd]

41. Well, one half-assed observation by me is worth three

studies in the literature. I'm an internist, not a surgeon. Nevertheless, I was involved in the care of a lovely sixteen year old diabetic girl a few years ago who had been shot through the window of her home by her jilted boyfriend. His weapon was a .410 gauge shotgun with number seven and a half shot. The distance was about twenty feet. The load took her thigh clean off. It was an horrific injury, requiring multiple plastic surgeries for closure. .410's are all choked full choke, and shoot a tiny compact pattern at that range.

[Wickerman]

45. Local Fox News in Minneapolis just said 30 feet!

Hey of a lot of difference there. They were showing clips of Dick with Brit today.

30 feet, 30 yards. I am sure its just a slip of the tongue, but an interesting one. I wonder if they might just start slipping that in. 30 feet.

[Avalux]

49. Wow - that's 10 yards.

Slip of the tongue maybe, but I think a lot of people are starting to think it - 30 feet, not yards.

[canichelouis]

50. I questioned my bird-hunter brother about this

All he was sure of is that we don't know the real story, the particulars don't add up.

His guess was an accidental discharge of sorts. A fall? Stumble? Drop?

[Avalux]

51. Yes! See post #9

:hi:

[smoogatz]

54. It's worth noting, too, that a 28-gauge has less than half the muzzle

velocity of a 12 gauge (about 1200 fps vs 2800 fps). The test you cite was conducted with a 12 gauge at a measured range of 12 feet--or 4 yards. Cheney claims that Whittington was 30 yards (90 feet) away. My research on the subject (a fairly lengthy Google search of various gun sites) indicates that a 28 gauge loaded with #7.5 bird shot will barely bring down a dove at 30 yards (mourning doves are smaller than pigeons)--much less penetrate at least two layers of clothing and an inch or two of soft tissue. Whittington was much closer to Cheney than 30 yards--more like 5 or 10 yards, most likely.

[Avalux]

55. Thanks!

Appreciate your opinion. :hi:

[stevedeshazer]

56. Respectfully, I don't get it...this doesn't make sense to me.

The tests involved here describe a much larger gun and much larger shot. What does this have to do with Cheney, who is alleged to have used a 28-gauge shotgun with #9 (or #8) size birdshot (.09 in. pellets).

Yeah, it's not hard to believe that a 12-gauge with comparatively much larger shot would make a big hole.

My experience with guns is limited, but I don't see what this proves other than that a gun with a much larger bore and firing much larger shot penetrates more layers of drywall.

Can someone explain what this means? Why does this matter? Is the point that Cheney must have been much closer to Harry W. than he's claimed?

:shrug:

[Avalux]

57. The important point - birdshot is meant to bring down little birds.

It's not meant to kill people, and at 30 yards, the type of gun and size of shot, 7.5 would never have penetrated a couple layers of clothing and the chest wall to lodge in the heart muscle.

So yes - Cheney was probably much closer. Seems a lot of people are thinking about 10 yards instead of 30.

This is an excellent post for more info:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x428407

:hi:

[stevedeshazer]

73. Thanks!

:hi:

[daleo]

60. He got hit with up to 200 pellets

With that many hitting a body, only a few have to get lucky to penetrate quite far (fly between the ribs, hit an area where epidermis or subcutaneous tissue is thinner than usual on 78 year old man, etc.). It is statistics really. If enough shot hits, a few will do unexpected things.

I have also read that Cheney's round may have been salted with heavier shot. I don't believe the 30 yards story. I think it was considerably closer than that.

[Julius Civitatus]

61. Point blank in the face, execution style

"...just a beer or two may have been involved."

Yeah right!

[goodboy]

64. Harry fell down. He was shot at point blank range.

[kineneb]

69. sounds like the official story is bogus

from what I remember from bird hunting with my grandfather, Chaney had to be really close to get that shot pattern. 28 gauge is small, and whatever size of shot they were using would not have enough force to do much more than sting the target at 30 yards. 12 gauge is another matter; it is essentially a hand cannon. The principal of using shot is the spread pattern. If one knew the powder load and size of shot, one could probably calculate the distance from the resultant pattern. My guess would be more like 5-10 feet, judging by the tight pattern of damage. Something in all of this sounds really fishy.

[SoCalDem]

71. The REAL dilemma.. Was that "font" even invented yet?

and what caliber was the typewriter?

oops.. wrong "scandal"..

I guess THIS one will just have to wither on the vine because the "blogosphere" cannot contribute much to our Almighty Leader's story..

carry on

[file83]

72. Sounds like Cheney's "Magic Birdshot Theory".

If they can cover up the assassination of JFK, how hard will it be to cover up this "accident"?

[Julius Civitatus]

75. Yup, here's the Magic BB theory

http://patriotboy.blogspot.com

[goodboy]

76. VIDEO!"it's like takin' some dirt and throwing it at you...like raindrops"

http://www.khou.com/sharedcontent/VideoPlayer/videoPlayer.php?vidId=50921&catId=35

[lovuian]

77. Yee Ha!!!

[Avalux]

79. Thanks - great info.

Apparently Cheney & co. didn't have a gun expert on hand to tell them what distance they should give. :eyes:

[kansan]

80. Toxic lead birdshot

I hope it was non-lead birdshot.

"Hunters who use lead ammunition also risk poisoning by accidentally eating shot or bullet fragments embedded in meat. Lead is an extraordinarily toxic element that can damage the brain, central nervous system and reproductive system, and cause kidney disease, high blood pressure and numerous reproductive disorders. Health effects in humans following ingestion of whole lead shot pellets have been reported in many cases. A Canadian study of blood lead levels in hunters showed that shotgun ammunition used to harvest wild game is a major source of lead exposure in Native American communities in Canada."

http://www.nrdc.org/media/pressreleases/041216b.asp

[LeftHander]

82. Choke on Cheney's gun?

28 guage, was it full and full, full and modified, improved cylinder and modified, skeet and skeet

Being a double Barrel most upland bird barrels are full and modified. the Modified bing the more open patter fires first (though you can select) and the full choke fires second for longer range shots.

But it could also of been improved cylinder and modified for short range work.

Knowing that will tell alot what the distance was based on reports of the spread.

Where is the gun?

Did the cops take it?

[Stephanie]

83. Also, if they were 30 yds apart, why did Armstrong think Cheney was ill?

She said she saw the medical people run in and she thought they were running to Cheney. That's a hard mistake to make if they are 30 yards apart.