SUV mows down Amish woman and child in their buggy

[theHandpuppet]

I saw the local news reports this evening and this asshole ran right into the back of the buggy, turning it into a pile of unrecognizable sticks. The driver said he was trying to pass the buggy (on a two-lane country road with double yellow lines, no less) but if you had seen the damage not only to the buggy but to the big assed SUV (smashed with a crushed windshield) you know this guy had to be flying down that road. My prayers are with the grandmother and child who are hospitalized tonight. It's amazing they are even alive.

http://www.nbc4.com/news/7078046/detail.html

I guess this really hits a nerve with me, as I live in an area where drivers routinely fly down two lane country roads at speeds intended for interstates.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

1. And then the Vice President jumped out

and shot the witnesses!

[sasha031]

2. the SUV driver should be prosecuted big time!

ya, I don't think the Amish want ti give up their way of life, why, because they don't want to be like us.

[AuntiBush]

86. Local Politicians and Area Residents

Sure don't mind the tourism money the Amish bring-in for them. You should see all the tourist buses going through there. They urge local Amish to get out in their Buggy's because its part of the sense one wants on a visit, like walking back in time.

They're peaceful, kind people that have had to deal with more then their fair share of arrogance from out-of-towner's, and locals whom treat them (not always so kind). But they're living proof that even in small numbers, one can survive the mayhem that surround them. Many have managed to hang on to olden traditions and lifestyles, and it makes you wonder what they think of those destroying the green earth they love and utilize for survival.

Buggies have huge triangular yellow neo-night visible signs on the back. Another sad story for the soft-spoken, peace-loving Amish.

[hlthe2b]

3. typical narcissistic asshole big-assed SUV driver....

I hope they are going to file charges at least. I pray for the grandmother and child. Geez-- the Amish don't bother anyone. Can't people respect them and at least be decent enough to watch out for them?

[Atman]

4. A 2000 Ford Explorer?

*sigh*

About as big as a family wagon. Probably not even as big. If this had been an Escalade or Tahoe, then I can see the "SUV" angle. Otherwise, I see no reason why "SUV" should even enter into it. If it had been a Kia Sportage or Honda CRV, would the emphasis have been on "SUV?"

[Merlot]

7. A Ford Explorer IS an SUV. An Escalade or Tahoe is just bigger SUV

[Atman]

11. A Honda Civic would have "mowed down" the buggy, too.

But how about that Sportage, or CRV? I notice you didn't point out their "SUV-ness." My point is, we're way too quick to jump on anything that says SUV, without even considering what an "SUV" is. These days, a Ford Taurus or a Toyota Camery is just as big as many "SUV"s. Why does this story even have to focus on SUV at all? What difference does it make? A Toyota Prius would have bounced off the buggy?

[Merlot]

31. I didn't point out anything regarding the Sportage or CRV because

I'm unfamiliar with those vehicles. I have seen a Ford Explorer and it's an SUV.

Of course a Honda Civic would still cause an accident, but a Honda Civic doesn't weigh as much as an SUV, nor does it have as high a carriage. So it's doubtful that it would mow-down the buggy. The weigh of the SUV gives it more ability to do damage.

SUV's have earned their reputations. I drive a small car and it's like playing dodgeball with all the SUV's on the freeways.

[mikelgb]

88. you're right

article should have said "automobile" :sarcasm: i know what you are saying with the SUV prejudice too... but i think it is warranted most of the time... But my SUV, a Honda Element (which us classified umpteen different ways depending on whose doing the classifying: 'wagon', 'suv', 'other' etc) i like to call it a LEV: Low Emissions Vehicle :wink:

[theHandpuppet]

14. Thank You.

An Escalade or Tahoe is just a supersized SUV. Pretty sad when we get to the point where only Escalades or Hummers qualify as oversized pieces of machinery.

[theHandpuppet]

13. Take a look at the slide show

Sure looks bigger than the station wagon my family has! And let me guess -- he uses this little toy to commute and that's why he was in such a hurry he had to crush a couple of Amish on his way. Look at the damage done to the SUV -- this guy wasn't following along at some leisurely pace, either.

[txindy]

28. I did look at the slideshow and I'm appalled.

I knew it would be bad just from the report, but I had no idea the damage to both would be so severe. The front of the SUV is destroyed. The windshield is crushed. Un-freaking-believable. He was flying down that road when he hit them.

[ornotna]

24. 5,018 pounds of "family wagon"

Any way you look at it, the results are the same. Big 'ol vehicle smashes into horse and buggy.

[Atman]

27. Just slightly more than a Chrysler Minivan

Those bastard minivan drivers! They should be banned!

[ornotna]

34. 2000 Chrysler Town and Country is 4,323 pounds

Dang! Your right, we should ban them as well.

[Tesha]

42. Minivans crash into fewer people than SUVs.

Minivans crash into fewer people than SUVs. And because they're
car-derived with unit bodies rather than bodies-on-frames and
because they have car-level bumpers rather than bumpers in the
sky, and because they tend to have sloping, crushable front
ends rather than battering "Ram"s, minivans tend to cause less
damage when they crash into other things.

(And don't waste my time posting a reply that says "You're wrong!" --
just check the insurance statistics or read High and Mighty.)

Just curious: do you drive a vehicle in the Ford Explorer class?
Perhaps even a Ford Explorer? Maybe you're feeling guilty or
even stupid about it these days?

Tesha

[Atman]

45. Nice try, Tesha

I live in New England, and own a weekend place deep in the woods. The SUV is a necessity. Also, being our only vehicle, I probably use LESS fuel than the average two-car (minivan) family, because we are quite conscientious about combining trips and making the most of each mile we drive.

There was a recent study, which I began to search for until I recalled your request NOT to even attempt to offer you any alternative information which didn't fit your pre-determined conclusions, which concluded that minivans, as a category, actually got WORSE gas mileage than SUV's.

Here is my problem with the whole SUV/Minivan "debate," which people like you are apparently too closed-minded and high-and-mighty to even consider. I say this, because I've posted it before, and the entire premise is basically ignored...and that is the very term SUV these days. Using the term SUV is no more descriptive any more than saying "I drive a CAR."

Do you lump a Cadillac Elderado in with a Honday Civic? Why not? They're both "passenger cars." Which one would you want to be in in a collision? Can you see over the hood of that Caddy when you're sitting next to one at an intersection, when in a Hyundai Accent?

"SUV" these days describes cars barely half as large as a full-size size passenger sedan. The Honda CRV and KIA Sportage are prime exampls. BTW, I note your knee-jerk assumption that because I said I own an SUV that it MUST therefore be a big behemoth vehicle...ignorance is bliss, eh? I never mentioned what size SUV I owned, but you apparenly already know. And, as I stated before, we traded a minivan for the SUV, and we took a bit hit in space. The minivan was cavernous compared to our SUV, and sat three more people. Going even further, I just had to get up and move my SUV because my son needed to get his 2005 Chevy Malibu (hey, he's a geek, what can I say?) out of the driveway, and I noticed for the first time, as a result of this thread, that the trunk deck of his MALIBU is higher than the hood of my SUV.

I could go on an on, but of course, as you already stated, your mind is made up and you don't want to be told you're wrong. But you ARE full of shit, if I might be approximately as rude as you were. Do I feel stupid or guilty for purchasing a car which fits my needs? No...I would have felt stupid or guilty this past weekend has I got my family stuck, or upside down in a ditch, as I drove back from Vermont through a driving snowstorm in a Kia Specter, though.

Let's try to remember, Tesha, it's a big world, and we all just can't be as perfect as you.

Have a nice day!

[Tesha]

48. Nice try, Atman.

> I live in New England, and own a weekend place deep in the woods.
> The SUV is a necessity.

Ahh, the ever popular "My conspicuous consumption creates my need
for an SUV" argument. But the odds are high you'd get there just
as well in a Suburu, Audi, Volkswagen, or Volvo four wheel drive
or, if ground-clearance is an issue, a Crossover Utility Vehicle
like a RAV-4 or CRX.

And *YES*, the industry recognizes that those CUVs aren't SUVs
even if *YOU* try to fog the issue up.


> you are apparently too closed-minded and high-and-mighty
> ignorance is bliss, eh?
> But you ARE full of shit

Did you really think that resorting to personal attacks would
convince me?

Tesha

[Atman]

54. Oh, I'm sorry. You can continue to call me "stupid" with impugnity, then

My bad.

Tell me, do you think ONE SINGLE PERSON besides yourself made a distinction between a "CUV," a term which I had never heard before, and an "SUV?" I'm trying to fog up nothing. Your attitude, quite frankly, disgusts me. I don't want to "get there just as well" as anything. If I can get there "just as well," then what the hell difference should it be to you or anyone else whether I get there in a car of my choosing, as opposed to one which you mandated for me? I camp in the back of my SUV because the seats fold totally flat. I tow. I haul stuff. I go snowboarding in winter.

How is the air up there? Rarified, apparently. And you call yourself a "Democrat?" Sheesh...you're the kind of democrat that gives democrats a bad name...the ones who know better than everyone else, and attempt to force their choices on people whose situations/needs they know nothing about.

[Tesha]

57. Google CUV. Then come back and yell at me.

Google CUV. Then come back and yell at me.

Wait, I'll save you the trouble: "CUV vehicle" gets 89,100 hits.

Lots of people have heard of the term; it's standard jargon.

Tesha

[Atman]

62. I'm not one of the "lots of people," Tesha

So all you're doing is changing the terms of the debate. What you want to call these vehicles is irrelevent to any of the points I made, as I was referring to the very same models you mentioned, in more than one post, wasn't I? What YOU want to call them changes nothing about what I said. I have literally never heard of anyone talk about their new "CUV." One man's "standard jargon" is another's cryptic obfuscation.

[Tesha]

75. Great; let's return to the point I originally raised to you.

> So all you're doing is changing the terms of the debate.

Great; let's return to the point I originally raised to you and
you ignored (as you changed the terms of the debate to "But I
*NEED* my SUV!")

Minivans are involved in fewer collisions than SUVs, mile for mile.
And the minivan collisions tend to be less deadly, both for the
occupants of the vehicle and the vehicle or pedestrian(s) that
they hit.

Tesha

[Atman]

76. Actually, since mine was post #4, I didn't change anything. You did.

I started the angle we are discussing, thank you very much.

Wood houses burn more than brick houses. Macs crash less than PCs. CRT's last longer than LCD's. Heaven forbid people have a choice, huh? Send me your address so I can seek your approval next time I want to make a purchase. I'm amazed I survived to this ripe old age without your input.

[Tesha]

81. Ahh, can't addrss my point, ehh? Oh well. (NT)

[Atman]

83. That's not it at all...

I'm just not addressing YOU. Find some other sucker if just want to be chased down a rabbit hole.

I may not be a physicist, but I know what matters! (ba-doom!)

[midnight armadillo]

79. To insert a data point

Ahh, the ever popular "My conspicuous consumption creates my need
for an SUV" argument. But the odds are high you'd get there just
as well in a Suburu, Audi, Volkswagen, or Volvo four wheel drive
or, if ground-clearance is an issue, a Crossover Utility Vehicle
like a RAV-4 or CRX.


Just because I'm a glutton for punishment I'll insert this comment into the midst of this heated argument: the newest Subaru Outbacks and Foresters have more ground clearance than most SUVs. They raised the suspension further on the newest Outbacks so they qualify as trucks (seriously) and get around CAFE limits.

[Atman]

80. Please stick to unqualified generalities!

And bow down to Suburu drivers, apparently. Funny thing is, I was just "called out" by another poster in this thread because I'm supposedly some sort of rich bastard telling others what to do. I'm sure my wife will be thrilled to know we're rich. Funny, though...I couldn't afford a Volvo 4X4 or Audi if I wanted one (well, okay, I'd take the Audi!), but still I'm a thoughtless, gluttonous Daddy Big Bucks because I drive a used SUV and own a big tent on some leased land. LOL! This place cracks me up sometimes!

[midnight armadillo]

89. Subaru's aren't all they're cracked up to be

I know, I drive one. Many of them get appalling mileage, in the low teens, when driven hard around town (ex. the turbo Baja and Foresters, or old V6 outbacks). Until the most recent models optimizing their boxer engines for mileage didn't appear to be on the agenda. They've gotten a little better. My '98 Legacy wagon with the 2.2L engine gets a whopping 21 mpg on a 90% highway (doing 65 mph) commute. So really, there's not much gas savings to driving one, esp compared with the 'cute-utes' like CRVs. They do better than a Tahoe though :)

However, I'd much rather be in a car accident with a Sube or a cute-ute than a ladder-framed SUV!

I'm not knocking your SUV driving (it's true, sometimes a Camry just won't get you where you need to go). Your large tent, is it something cool like a yurt or yome? Sounds like a good place to be for the flu pandemic...

[Atman]

104. Yeah, I have a yurt

Hadn't thought of the pandemic angle...

Uh...I take that back everybody! I don't have anyplace anywhere! You can't come! Never mind!

;-)

[txindy]

5. They drive like that on country roads around here, too.

More accidents on them here than on the major roads. Unreal. Some folks just don't think of other people. Everyone is supposed to get out of THEIR way.

[mitchtv]

25. Is there somwhere they don't drive like that?

Not on the phone? changing CDs? putting on eye makeup? Reading?. Where I live the sidewalk is a might scarey with the speed and inattention 4 or 5 feet away.

[txindy]

26. True, unfortunately.

For some weird reason, though, country roads seem to have the most accidents. I'm not exactly certain why, but it's a stat we hear now and again here. From my own experience, I suffer from drivers who do exactly what you mentioned: talking on the phone, changing CDs, etc. It's as if they're alone on the road - or feel they should be. :shrug:

[mitchtv]

29. I lived on a state hwy

i witnessed many. Every year or so about may or june a carload of popular high school teens buy the farm on this type of road. But honestly, since I moved to Socal there are SUV fatalities all the time in our mid sized suburban city.we border this rural highway area now.

[theHandpuppet]

33. I think your point is valid.

Folks seem to be more focused when they're on a major highway where they're surrounded by cars all jostling for pole position. It seems people's attention seems to wander when they're driving on rural roads even though those roads can be ever so more dangerous, especially when you live in a place lik WV where driving the country roads is like doing the slalom in a car.

[lectrobyte]

66. That's probably true... The rural roads are used heavily by

commuters who want to go at least 70 in a 55, and will pass at any seeming opportunity. Throw in farm vehicles and construction equipment going 30 mph, and I seem to see at least one serious wreck per week. Last month, two killed, one injured in a head-on crash: http://www.newsobserver.com/102/story/393709.html

[skids]

113. Reminds me of this here song...

Buzzards Of Green Hill
by Claypool, Les
album:

Johnny come lately
All through the county
They come from the city
Out here to Green Hill
Drivin' like bastards
Stompin' the throttle
The buzzards of Green Hill
Grow fat on road kill

Awwww
Little Fuzzy Wuzzy was a baby bear
Little Fuzzy Wuzzy didn't have no hair
Little Fuzzy Wuzzy wasn't fuzzy was he
But he didn't give a good hot damn

Little Ruby had a purdy kitty cat
Brother ran him off with a Tee-Ball bat
Out on Green Hill the little kitty cat sat
'Till it met a '96 Dodge Ram

Johnny come lately
All through the county
They come from the city
Out here to Green Hill
Drivin' like bastards
Stompin' the throttle
The buzzards of Green Hill
Grow fat on road kill

HEY, HEY, HEY, HEY

Old John Donovan was drinkin' late
Took his car keys and he taunted fate
Swervin' across the interstate
Crashed a mother and her son cold dead

Took John Donovan and hucked him in jail
He dipped in his wallet and posted bail
He made it back home before the sunrise shine
And slept in his very own bed

This little piggy won't cast a stone
That little piggy won't pick a bone
But these little piggies don't stand alone
When justice needs to be fed

Johnny come lately
All through the county
They come from the city
Out here to Green Hill
Drivin' like bastards
Stompin' the throttle
The buzzards of Green Hill
Grow fat on road kill

Johnny come lately
All through the county
They come from the city
Out here to Green Hill
Drivin' like bastards
Stompin' the throttle
The buzzards of Green Hill
Grow fat on road kill
The buzzards of Green Hill
Grow fat on road kill
The buzzards of Green Hill
Grow fat on road kill

[951-Riverside]

6. Didn't the Amish vote for Bush in large numbers?

This question has nothing to do with this tragedy no CIVILIAN deserves to be mowed down like this.

[politicat]

38. In general, the Amish don't vote.

It is yoking oneself with the unbeliever, which is against their belief system.

[LostinVA]

50. Yes -- the ones who voted

The GOP targeted them this past election.

[corkerjoe]

8. SUV?

call as you see it if it is a suv then is a suv.

[Hekate]

9. SUV owner-drivers should have to pass special driving tests and training

I hate those Urban Assault Vehicles.

Hekate

[Atman]

12. So should Prius owners.

:eyes:

[Hekate]

39. Probably -- due to the totally different dashboard

I test drove a Prius a couple of years ago -- my husband was okay with the look of the control panels, but I felt a bit lost. It handled alright, though.

SUVs though -- they get implicated in too many accidents like driving over a curb and the driver not noticing (quite dangerous when soccer moms are depositing their kids at the elementary school), crushing other cars' passengers due to the height of the bumpers, rolling over, that kind of thing. My little epiphany came when I strolled in front of one that was stopped at a red light. As I approached, I could see the driver, but as I crossed directly in front of it I completely lost sight of her, and I seriously doubt she could see me either. What about a child? We're talking suburbia here, not a ranch or the wild frontier.

Hence my feeling that, just as there are special licenses for driving busses and big-rigs, once a car passes a certain size the people who want to own one should demonstrate they know how to handle it.

Hekate

[Atman]

47. What kind of "SUV" was it?

Sounds like an Escalade, 1500 or Tahoe-type. They're massive. Or was it a Kia Sportage, whose hood you could have probably sat your butt on?

Generalities serve no one here. I understand your point, but no one seems to want to listen to mine. "SUV" is merely a word, a word which is no more descriptive any more than the word "car."

[lectrobyte]

67. 2000 Ford Explorer

[Atman]

71. Actually, I was addressing post #39

OP related and anecdote about walking past an SUV, so large she couldn't see the driver. I asked only because it directly relates to the "anti-SUV" generalities. If the offending "SUV" was a Kia Sportage, then perhaps OP is only 4'1" tall, and in that case, even a Ford 500 is going to seem massive. However, if it was a Chevy Silverado, no doubt she was completely dwarfed by the shear massiveness of the Urban Assualt Vehicle.

Again, my only point in asking is because OP's generic use of the term "SUV" tell us really nothing. I cannot even try to form a picture of the incident in my mind, because the term "SUV" covers so many different sizes of vehicles, many of them half the size of a standard minivan.

[mtnsnake]

10. I hope they're all okay, including the poor horse

[theHandpuppet]

16. The horse was injured but will survive

The grandmother and child are in the hospital with serious injuries.

[Heewack]

15. The SUV didn't mow them down.

The driver did.

[theHandpuppet]

17. Yeah, and Dick Cheney didn't shoot Whittington

The gun did.

[Atman]

19. That is a lame analogy

If the vehicle had driven by without striking the Amish, would we be talking about it?

OP made a perfectly valid point, which you attempted to minimize with a cute aside. The FACT is, a Toyota Prius could have done the exact same damage had it's driver similarly failed to negotiate the pass. Trying to blame this on what is essentially a tall sedan (our old minivan was much larger, with more seats and cargo room, than our SUV), is just plain silly. What is the point?

AGAIN, would a Prius have just bounced off the buggy?

[theHandpuppet]

21. If the buggy had been hit by a Prius, I would have said the same thing

An SUV is an SUV is an SUV. Part of the problem with the severity of such crashes is the size of SUVs and their height, not to mention too many of their drivers think they're invincible behind the wheel of these bigger vehicles. And I'm not sure who you are talking to, since I'M THE OP.

If you have a problem with the title of this thread, so be it. The supposed "issue" of the SUV was also in the title of the report on the NBC4 site. Maybe you can ask them why they bothered to say the buggy was hit by an SUV. It's a description and an accurate one. If they had been hit by a pickup or car I imagine they would have said pickup or car. But I somehow doubt that had they been hit by a Geo attempting to pass that buggy would have been turned into a pile of matchsticks.

[Tesha]

43. Did you flunk physics in high school?

> The FACT is, a Toyota Prius could have done the exact
> same damage had it's driver similarly failed to negotiate
> the pass.

Did you flunk physics in high school?

Tesha

[Atman]

46. Tell that to the people in the buggy...

...when they're flying through the air in a crumpled heap. I'm sure they would be happier knowing it was a small "green" car which hit them at high speed.

[Tesha]

49. I'll take that as a "Yes, I flunked" or "No, I never took physics". (NT)

[Atman]

55. You might as well, as long as you're making stuff up anyway.

:eyes:

[Tesha]

56. All you need to do is is say...

All you need to do is is say something like "No, in fact, I
took physics and got a B+" or some such.

Tesha

[Atman]

59. No, Tesha, I don't "need" to say anything

I owe you nothing, and I certainly don't "need" you to sign off on my worthiness to participate in an open discussion.

Go stand in the middle of the highway and tell me whether it hurts more to get hit by Chrysler 300 or a Ford Explorer. I'll wait.

[Tesha]

72. Actually, that's well documented.

The SUV breaks your knees; the car usually flips you onto its hood.

SUVs hurt more pedestrians more seriously than cars.

Tesha

[formernaderite]

69. What's humorous about the SUV debate

is that it cuts across party lines. Alot of blue collar union guys all drive SUV's and so do middle to upper class soccer moms. Some of the construction guys I work with who've only been in this country for a few years, are on a marching path towards a Hummer. Believe me...they're not future repubs either. I'm a green guy who lives a very pared down lifestyle, drives a pick up when I work, but our other car is a subaru. When I've brought up the whole "green" issue with some of these guys, they roll their eyes at me. The only thing that could possibly end the love affair with these vehicles....is higher gas prices. I'm probably in the minority, but I actually think higher gas is a GOOD thing.

[Tesha]

73. I agree with you.

> I'm probably in the minority, but I actually think higher gas is a GOOD thing.

I agree with you. It's just a shame that the higher
prices are fueling oil company profits rather than
higher taxes on gasoline that could have paid for
developing alternative energy.

Tesha

[Atman]

74. Your post actually speaks volumes!

Volumes many don't want to hear.

You can be an asshole driver in an 1968 Old Cutlass, which was big enough and powerful enough (with a V8) to mow down a house. You can be an asshole driver in a Suburu, or even a Toyota Corolla. Conversely, you can be a thoughtful democrat who drives an SUV carefully and thoughtfully, as any driver should drive any car. You can be a republican and drive the same way.

I'm just sick to death of those who so freely throw around the terms "SUV" and "asshole!" in the same sentence as if being an asshole is one of the requirements of the car loan. The whole debate is just silly. Come up with a different term for the massive, 8500lb GMC behemoths if that is what one want's to bitch about, but it just makes no sense, and does nothing to enlighten anyone, when you lump a Kia Sportage or Honda CRX into the same generic category -- "SUV" -- as a Silverado. The latter could drive over the former without hardly feeling a bump.

Then which "asshole" "SUV" driver would we blame?

[Bridget Burke]

77. You're helping the reputations of SUV driver everywhere....

Tell someone they are full shit because they disagree with you.

Look down on those peasants who don't understand the burden of having a second home.

Why ARE those words often found in the same sentence?

[Atman]

78. LOL! Good one!

Please go back and re-read the thread. Please. You're jumping to conclusions faster than Cheney for a beer. My "second home" is a yurt. Which I traded with the manufacturer for designing a brochure. It has been winterized and heated and is up on a very large deck made almost entirely out of recycled and salvaged materials, such as old motor home frames and sections of telephone poles. I tried to cut down as few trees as possible, so as not to alter the LEASED land too much, and used the felled trees as lumber. I've built it all myself. Yeah, I'm, just swimming in cash, lording over the poor! LOL!

Go ask Tesha who fired the first shot in the name-calling game (I'm apparently "stupid" and "guilty" for my personal choices), simply because I don't believe it is honest to lump Honda CRX's in with Chevy Silverados as "SUVs"

Wear a helmut next time you jump to such conclusions, please. Or don't. That's your personal choice.

[Tesha]

82. Actually, I chose my words *VERY CAREFULLY*

> Go ask Tesha who fired the first shot in the name-calling
> game (I'm apparently "stupid" and "guilty" for my personal choices)

Actually, I chose my words *VERY CAREFULLY*. Here's what I said:

> Just curious: do you drive a vehicle in the Ford Explorer class?
> Perhaps even a Ford Explorer? Maybe you're feeling guilty or
> even stupid about it these days?

It was posed as a question. Your subsequent responses have,
of course, indirectly answered my question pretty well.

Tesha

[Atman]

85. LOL! No they haven't. You only think they have!

I don't drive a Ford Explorer. Ha ha, nanny nanny boo boo!

And I think I've made it pretty clear that I sure as hell don't feel stupid or guilty about the vehicle I purchased. You just like to keep putting words in my mouth, trying to goad me into fighting with you. When I don't you do the ol' "Aha! You won't give me the answer I want, so it proves I'm right!" trick so popular with freepers and five year olds.

You know nothing about me. You just make stuff up to suit your pre-determined conclusions. It's pretty, weak, Tesha. Pretty weak, indeed.

I just love the irony...I'm referred to as a "liberal puke" by family and friends. I drive a 5 year old car and own a yurt and live in New England, but I'm not democrat enough to suit you? Too freakin' bad!

[Solon]

95. I don't bash SUV drivers myself, SUV designers though, earn my contempt...

One thing that aggravates me is this, they get a truck chassis, put an additional 1-2,000 pounds onto it, then don't bother upgrading the brakes? I'm talking about the larger ones, BTW, like the Explorer, and super large Tahoe chassis ones like the H2, monsters like the Excursion, etc. Not to mention that these things a flip hazards, not that it is limited to SUV's, I had a friend who was given a freakin' Geo Metro, a "wannabe" SUV or Jeep if I ever saw one. First, the damned thing was only a two wheel drive, and had a 4 banger in it, my compact Celica had more torque. Second, it had a flip warning put on it for crying out loud, a couple of times I drove the damned thing, and I was scared to death, doesn't handle like a car at all, was a little underpowered for its small assed, yet overweight size, and the brakes and traction were nill. Don't even get me started on full sized SUVs, driving a fucking Durango is an adventure in itself, stopping distance, compared to even a Ram, was pathetic.

Plus, to bash some drivers for not knowing how to drive 4WD vehicles in general, both SUVs and Trucks is justified. Not all drivers are like that, but quite a few are, especially those that jump onto fads like SUVs. I remember a couple of years ago, there was about 6 inches of snow on the roads, and I had to go to my parent's for Christmas, I'm on the interstate driving my little Celica, which, if you know about them, don't even have 6 inches of clearance, I felt the snow on the underside, the Interstate wasn't plowed yet. So I'm cruising on the Interstate at the speed of about 30 miles per hour, I never slipped on the snow, I love 5 speeds. :) Anyways, in front of me is a guy in a brand new F-250 or something, a full-sized pickup, and what does he do? He has the 4WD activated, I could see it, the snow kicking up past all for of his wheels, and he slides all over all three lanes. I was, at first, trying to follow his tracks, staying behind him, then I was like, fuck it, I can't follow those tracks, great way to get into an accident, so I blazed my own trail, so to speak, though I stayed behind him, treating him as I would a drunk, no way was I risking trying to pass that dumbass. Low and behold, about 5 miles after he entered the highway, he slides straight sideways off the road and gets stuck, what a dumbass.

Personally, I think that Pickup truck and SUV drivers, for vehicles based on weight class, need their own driver's license classification, similar to commercial licenses for 16 wheelers. At least then they would actually know that these big vehicles do NOT handle like cars, no matter how they wish they can take sharp corners, etc. they can't, and they need to be trained in how to handle them.

[Atman]

103. I don't think your suggestions are unreasonable

Motorcyclists require special licenses. And these giant Hummers are almost as different from a passenger car as a motorcycle is. Whether it's weight class or chassis type, that I'm not so sure of, but either way, as long as it's realistic, I wouldn't object. I don't know what "class" mine is. I know it is a truck, though. S-10 size, not as big as an Explorer, or as small as the little ones like the Geo you mentioned. Btw, those Geos are actually Suzuki Vitaras. They made a version after the 4 cylindar fiasco that was supposed to be fairly nice, for a mini ute. I think it even got decent reviews after it was properly powered.

Anyway, the S-10 size "truck" is actually fairly small compared to many of the vehicles on the road. I am still a hippy democrat, but I do a LOT of winter driving and light off-road driving. It has traction control and all sorts of safety goodies, and I like it and I like to think I am a very reasonable and courteous driver, having had to say good bye to my second Corolla shortly after trading our mini van for the S-10. I appreciate being stuck behind a giant fender you can't see over...believe me, it happens to me all the time STILL in the S-10, when Silverados and F1500's rumble up!

[Solon]

114. Hey, my buddy had a "wannabe pickup truck" an S-10...

Oh, that thing was a doozy, and had less torque than my car, it was funny, I was able to chain up things that weighed more than twice what my car weighed(my Uncle's ancient Chevy Full-Sized truck), and was able to tow it, that was AFTER my friend decided to help, he was the only one we knew who had a bona-fide "truck" so to speak, and couldn't tow my uncle's truck up a hill, on a paved road for crying out loud. So we hooked it up to my car, and it chugged the POS up the hill, and to my Uncle's house in no time, at 30 mph, believe it or not. He had a mid-90s S-10 that died a while ago, now he drives a more powerful vehicle, a Cavelier. :)

[girl gone mad]

105. I think you're right.

"Personally, I think that Pickup truck and SUV drivers, for vehicles based on weight class, need their own driver's license classification, similar to commercial licenses for 16 wheelers. At least then they would actually know that these big vehicles do NOT handle like cars, no matter how they wish they can take sharp corners, etc. they can't, and they need to be trained in how to handle them."

I encounter this on a daily basis. Too many SUV drivers operate as if they are behind the wheel of a porsche or a Ferrari, not a truck.

[Dora]

96. Geez. Do you always try to convert the unconvertable?

I think you need to work on your manners.

We're all on the same side here. Sheesh.

[sarcasmo]

98. I keep telling my wife $5.00 a gallon is what it's going to take.

If you want to stop the sale of the SUV, bomb Iran. If fuel goes through the roof to $5.00 a gallon blue collar Joe will not be able to afford his SUV. I am curious is my Saturn VUE V6 AWD which is smaller than a van and any other SUV still considered an SUV?

[Tesha]

101. Almost certainly not.

> I am curious is my Saturn VUE V6 AWD which is smaller than
> a van and any other SUV still considered an SUV?

Almost certainly not.

An "SUV" is a light truck (as defined by law) equipped with a
full-length cabin. By being classified as a "light truck", it
gets to skate around many safety, economy, and pollution standards
that were only applied to cars. That's why SUVs are so cheap to
manufacture, although the manufacturers don't pass those savings
on to the end purchaser.

Your Saturn is almost certainly a car-derived vehicle and *NOT*
a "light truck".

By the way, a number of minivans (such as the Dodge Caravan)
are also "light trucks", but because they were car-derived,
the manufacturers chose to retain most of the car's safety,
economy, and anti-pollution features in the interest of keeping
the various product lines using as many common parts as possible.

Tesha

[Atman]

107. ALMOST certainly not!

Almost. As long as one doesn't Google "Saturn SUV."

[Tesha]

109. Do you care about facts at all?

"SUV" has a colloquial meaning, but it also has a fairly precise
technical meaning (which I quoted).

But you just throw this stuff around in an Alice-and-Wonderland
"words mean just what I say they mean".

You don't understand physics, you don't understand SUV marketing,
and you don't recognize the fact that you don't actually need to
get to your yurt, you simply *CHOOSE* to go there and therefore
claim the need for an SUV.

You complain about the style of my posts; pot, meet kettle.

Tesha

[Atman]

111. Kettle, maybe you need to lay off the POT!

:eyes:

[Atman]

106. Yes, it is sarcasmo. That was my point!

I am curious is my Saturn VUE V6 AWD which is smaller than a van and any other SUV still considered an SUV?

It's too bad, the OP's attempts to twist my post into something else! Your Saturn VUE is still an "SUV" and thus, you're still an "SUV driver." You know, like those people all the other tolerant DUers were calling assholes, without any consideration for how broad-based, and therefore virtually meaningless, the term "SUV" is in the modern automobile market. I don't think any of them would take kindly if we said "all two-door compact drivers drive like assholes!" I'm sure a lot of them do drive like assholes. All that really demonstrates is that all sorts of people in all sorts of vehicle can drive like assholes.

I guess the motto of the story is: All generalities are false.

[ornotna]

40. You are correct

He just happen to be driving an SUV.

[rman]

52. Indeed, a SUV driver did, while driving his SUV

Thanks for pointing that out.

[DelawareValleyDem]

18. Wonder how many yellow ribbon magnets were on the truck

[Atman]

20. There are no stickers or magnets of any kind on my black SUV

...and it even has dark tinted windows. It looks sinister. I park it in front of republican's houses in hopes they think they're being spied on by the NSA.

Sorry to blow a hole in your stereotype. Everyone on DU knows what a gun-totin' neo-con anti-environment war-mongerin' fascist I am.

:eyes:

[DelawareValleyDem]

22. Hey , good for you!

Keep driving safely. And I'll keep flipping the bird to every multi magnet behemoth that cuts me off, particularly now that I'll be reminded of this story

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

23. That's dated today.

Wasn't there a 20 hour delay in the reporting? Doesn't every American citizen get a 20 hour gimme?

Me so confused. :shrug:

[0007]

30. Almost every erratic driver I come across these day are on

their cell phone. My God, who in the hell do these nit-wits talking with? Supermarkets, the same thing, many people walking around shopping and talking on their cell phones.

Is this a Midland Texas thing or is it going on all over?

[txindy]

32. Oh, it's everywhere.

My 'favorite' time is when the car starts weaving all over the road and then you see the driver holding up the cellphone, DIALING the flippin' thing! :grr:

[0007]

41. Thanks for the information. Everyone

here has a new car, SUV, truck or hummer and a "W" sticker plastered somewhere on their vehicle.

Funny you said that about the driver dialing a number. This afternoon I was making a left hand turn and a black SUV was drifting over into my lane as I was turning. I looked over and he was holding up the cell phone and trying to dial. Argh!!

[hatrack]

108. Well, there was the guy I saw yesterday with a book across the wheel

I had to admit, it was refreshingly different, even though his wandering journey from lane to lane was a bit unnerving.

[TheBaldyMan]

35. Why didn't the driver slow down for horse riders and horse-drawn

traffic? I would have thought that was automatic, in case you spook the horse. Especially in an area where Amish live, there would be a far higher incidence of horses in traffic.

[theHandpuppet]

36. I saw the footage this morning

This particular stretch of country road has a double yellow line, too. But from the looks of the damage done to both the buggy and SUV, I'd say this asshole didn't even slow down when he hit the buggy "attempting to pass". I wonder what the speed limit was on that stretch of road. I'll bet it wasn't 55.

[WildEyedLiberal]

37. If you live in an area where there are Amish, you HAVE to be alert

The speed limits on most country roads are unmarked - ie, 55. That's what they are here. I live in a very Amish-heavy area, however, and you just know that on certain roads you HAVE to be on the lookout for Amish buggies. If it means you have to slow down to 10 mph before you get a chance to safely pass, that's what you do. Jesus Christ, that's a horrible story. How sad.

[LWolf]

44. Kind of the same thing we do for school buses and deer.

Or bicycles and cows. Or tractors. Rural roads aren't empty; they just don't have the same number of passenger cars suburban roads do. Most drivers are aware of the various things that might necessitate slowing or stopping, and drive accordingly. I hope the woman, her daughter, and their horse recover completely and speedily. I hope the suv driver has to pay all medical and vet bills. In addition, the horse ought to be retired, and the driver ought to have to shell out the huge amount of money for another experienced driving horse. That kind of trauma is difficult for horses to get over. Even if the horse makes a full physical recovery, he may not be safe to take back onto the road.

[WildEyedLiberal]

99. Very good point.

The horse will likely spook every time a car whooshes past it now. Hell, those poor people will, too - every time they'll hear a car coming up on them, they'll probably involuntarily tense up in anticipation of being slammed into.

[Beausoir]

51. Why is this news?

Is it because of the Amish factor?
Or is it just another SUV bashing thread?

Accidents happen all the time. They are terrible and they frighten me. Roughly a year ago, I was directly behind a semi truck that smashed, head-on, into a tow-truck that had crossed the center line. I was nearly killed. It was a horrific collision that ejected the tow truck driver. My husband attended to him as he lay in the middle of the road, his face ripped-off.

Should I have started a thread about that and started assigning blame to people?

[rman]

53. Why do you hate Amish?

And why do you idolize SUVs?

[Beausoir]

61. Hee hee. You got me.

My secret has been revealed.

[DS1]

58. They should paint those buggies a lighter color

flat black is just stupid

[theHandpuppet]

60. This would not have affected this accident

The driver of the SUV saw the buggy and said he was "attempting to pass". At a high rate of speed, apparently, and on a stretch of road with a double yellow line.

Perhaps some drivers just need to slow the f*** down.

[DS1]

63. No shit

They should do it anyway.

[Solon]

90. by law, buggies have to have orange reflectors on the back...

unless the report mentions that it didn't, then I would say that it did, and the SUV driver has no legal leg to stand on.

[jberryhill]

93. They won't do that

Umm... okay, YOU are in charge of telling them to make their buggies more visible. In PA, they wouldn't even put fluorescent reflectors on the backs of their buggies.

http://www.post-gazette.com/firstamendment/20020606amishweb0606p3.asp
EBENSBURG, Pa. -- A Cambria County judge today ruled against a conservative Amish community that refused to mount state-mandated orange symbols on their plain black buggies because they feel the emblems are garish and an affront to their faith.

Same story with trying to get them to use composite horse shoes - for those unfamiliar with what happens to asphalt roads in Amish areas.

Road safety in Amish areas is not simple. Their view of pulling out into a highway from a stop-sign controlled side road is very different from someone who doesn't have a horse in front of them. The horse may also leave a slippery deposit on the road - right where cars are using maximum braking force. And the horse's view of the stop sign is considerably different if the driver has fallen asleep. The horse *does* know the way home, though. A drunk Amish driver (and yes it happens) doesn't veer off of the road and hit telephone poles.

Had the vehicle in front of the SUV been a car, he would have been citeable for going too slow. There is, of course, no excuse for plowing into the back of a buggy - particularly if the driver was used to driving in areas where the roads are shared with the Amish.

[DelawareValleyDem]

64. Maybe they follow the Henry Ford thinking

"Any customer can have a car painted any color that he wants so long as it is black."

Actually, there's some dispute over whether he actually said this, but you get the idea.

[DS1]

65. It's a common sense issue

Daytime headlights have been proven to cut down on accidents. I'm not suggesting chrome plating, or spinner rims, or blue neon, just maybe ... a white carriage. I can't hurt.

[Beausoir]

68. Funny visual there.

I think it's a religious issue. The buggies must be black.

I live near an Amish community and I pass these buggies all the time. It always makes me nervous because I am always worried the horse will spook. Once, I was passing one and a farmyard dog dashed out and lunged at the horse. Scary.

[DelawareValleyDem]

70. Might work, but you'd have a hard time convincing them to do it.

Then you'd have to pass a law, and it would be fought in court, and so on. I'm pretty sure it's a law here in PA that they're required to display the 'slow moving vehicle' symbol when they operate the carriages on public roads. The ones I've seen here all have them.

[Solon]

91. Orange rectangle with a reflecting backing, right?

I remember seeing those on buggies on public roads all the time. Kinda reminds me of reflectors for bicycles, myself.

[jberryhill]

94. The Amish Fought That Law in Court

It took a long time to get them to put reflectors on.

[Solon]

97. True, but they lost...

which means that they are liable if they don't put them on the buggies. Also, I assume that since its not mentioned in the article that the buggie was in violation of the law that it had the reflector on it, so visibility wouldn't be a defense for the SUV driver.

ON EDIT: corrected grammar, it sucks :)

[jberryhill]

110. I wasn't suggesting a defense...

...just pointing out that an attempt to impose visibility requirements is difficult when you are dealing with a community that strongly resists adornment or attention-getting.

I don't care what was going on in front, when you run your car into something, IMHO you are going to be at fault. Sort of like handling a shotgun...

Some of the other comments on the thread suggested a lack of familiarity with the Amish. If there is someone in Lancaster County that has never passed a buggy on a double-yellow line, then I'd be impressed.

[DelawareValleyDem]

100. Yep, aided by the ACLU

proving wrong yet again the freepers who claim the ACLU is anti-religion.

[Nikki Stone 1]

84. I recently watched an accident happen with an SUV that was flying

southbound off the interstate onto a 35 mph 4-lane road. There were cars in both southbound lanes, and the SUV was going too damned fast to brake effectively. The SUV swerved onto the narrow cement median, sideswiping a minivan which overturned, slid, and hit a compact car in the next lane.
It took less than a second. The SUV never stopped, continued on at a high rate of speed. I don't know if anyone got the license plate--I was on a side street waiting to turn when the accident happened, and from my angle I couldn't see the plate.

Fortunately, the driver of the minivan appeared to be ok, though he had to have been bounced around some. The compact car driver was livid but unhurt.

It's less about the kind of vehicle itself than about the complete and total irresponsibility of some drivers. It's all about "me" and screw everyone else.

[JVS]

87. extreme care is to be taken when passing horse-drawn vehicles

lest the horses be spooked. crossing double yellows is also very bad

[RumpusCat]

92. Amish don't have health insurance

They have an interesting perspective on insurance and consider it gambling against God. In other words, all of the $$ spent airlifting the grandmother and the grandchild to the hospital and treating them will come directly from their families' pockets. Think an ambulance ride is expensive? Damn, I can't even imagine how much they'll charge for a chopper ride. Amish families sometimes lose land and farms when a member of the family is seriously ill or injured.

It's just a sidenote to this whole sad incident. :\

[stubertmcfly]

102. Did the SUV mow them down...

...or was it the asshole driving it? Just want to clarify that because using your logic, Cheney's gun shot Whittington.

[eppur_se_muova]

112. Unfortunately, such accidents are very common.

I lived in Pittsburgh for several years and it seemed like some such accident was on the news every few weeks . A lot of times it was some young kid driving too fast after dark. And yes, they did have to fight Amish opposition to get the orange reflectors on the horse-drawn vehicles. That should cut down on accidents due to poor visibility, but it can't stop accidents due to inattention or speeding.

I also taught in Ohio and went to a job interview where I had to drive through a stretch of Amish country to get there. The road passed through a lot of small hills, with narrow, twisting roads having some of the shortest lines-of-sight I have ever seen anywhere (including WV and southern GA), with lots of overhanging trees as well. Speed limit was 25 most of the way, or even 15 in spots, and I kept slowing down even then. There were lots of places where driving 15 mph actually felt dangerous -- I would come over the crest of a hill, or around a curve, and if there had been a buggy in the road there would not have been room to stop sometimes even at 15 mph.

I passed several buggies -- fortunately always came on them along a relatively straight stretch of road -- but cars and buggies don't mix well. More thought needs to be put into the whole situation.

That said, I'm not recommending the Amish be forced 'into line'. Live and let live. Maybe there needs to be some effort to build paved roads around Amish areas, and leave the roads unpaved within. If people could agree which roads are which, there would be no need for mixed traffic except at crossings.