Fundie Pro-Life Obstetricians.

[KyuzoGator]

Now I'm telling this story third-hand, so please pardon me if I don't have all the technical medical facts completely right.

A friend of a friend recently gave birth to a baby with fairly severe Down's Syndrome. It turns out that relatively early on in the pregnancy, some indicator test showed an unusually high probability of Down's in her baby and the doctor never told her due to the fact that the level shown in the test was not beyond a certain specific threshold.

Anyhow, she spoke to the doctor afterwards and demanded to know why the test results were not disclosed to her and he began to lay into her with the, "it's part of God's plan" fundie crap and even went so far as to say that he's glad he didn't tell her because she would probably have "killed" the baby. She's suing the shit out of him.

Since my fiancee and I will probaby be having children soon, this really got me thinking. I'd like to know from DU whether or not this is something you guys think about when you choose an obstetrician. This stuff would never have occurred to me until it happened to an acquaintance. Do you ever ask the doctor how they approach defects detected early on? Do you ask them about the extent of their religious beliefs and does that factor into your decision?





Also, the Vice President SHOT A 78-YEAR-OLD MAN IN THE FACE.

In case you didn't know.

[FreedomAngel82]

1. Oh my gosh

:( I'm sorry that happened. And this person is a doctor? Wow. Amazing. :( I'm glad she's suing him and I would too! They're out of control! My mother's OBGYN doctor etc. is a member of our church. I wonder if he wouldn't tell her something because of "God's plan." I doubt it since he's been a great doctor over the years. That is so disgusting. :(

[Rabrrrrrr]

2. That fucker should be sued right out of practice

Fundy fucks who can't get past their fundy fuckness should not be allowed in medicine at all, whether as doctors or pharmacists or nurses.

Either you provide the care, or you are negligent, immoral holier-than-thou criminal asshole.

I hope your friend of a friend bankrupts the sonofabitch and sends him packing.


While I don't have any need for such a doctor, I think it's totally fine, nowadays, to ask a doctor if they are going to provide you proper scientific medical care, or if they are going to provide some kind of fictional "biblical" medical care.

[Warren DeMontague]

3. Yeah, that sounds like a lawsuit if I've ever heard one.

What if the doctor didn't tell someone they had terminal cancer, out of fear that they might seek assisted suicide and fuck up "God's Plan"?

These Jesus-drunk loonies are WAY out of control, I tell ya.

[Lars39]

4. Definitely.

I also question them about abortion. I would never go to a fundy doctor. No way, no how.

[Lindsay]

5. It's probably a good idea to ask questions of any

prospective OB/GYN these days to be sure they're supportive of your beliefs. There have been too many horror stories. Interview your prospective doctors before it's too late, or get recommendations from like-minded friends, or something.

[TheFarseer]

6. That is BS

I'm not sure what I would do in that situation, but it's MY CHOICE. Not some fandies's choice. I hope they win.

[madmom]

7. Think I'll get a job at McDonald's or Wendy's and refuse to

serve hamburgers or chicken because I think it's wrong to eat meat. Think it will fly?

[Maru Kitteh]

37. Me Too! We can apply to the same Wendy's together!

and hand out pamphlets of bloody skinned cow carcasses and festering cancerous masses being ground into hamburger while people are trying to eat.

We can claim it's God's plan, not ours.

[baldguy]

77. What makes you think that's hamburger & chicken?

[KingFlorez]

8. What a dirty piece of crap

If you have that kind of backward attitude, then you don't need to be a doctor

[0rganism]

9. My Opinion: avoid male obstetricians

I'm sure there are plenty of good ones out there, don't get me wrong. But the process of pregnancy is one which, as a male who did his best to help his wife out during hers, I'm pretty sure only a female can truly understand. It's the difference between abstract knowledge and someone who's either been there or could go there herself. Find a female obstetrician if you can, or a midwife with a good reputation and references. Don't leave this in the hands of someone who simply cannot know, no matter how well intentioned they may seem. Ask about your concerns up-front, with no remorse. You're paying these people good money for their services, make sure you can trust them.

[KyuzoGator]

10. One step farther: Should we look for OB/GYNs who are mothers?

Think that might make a difference?

[Patiod]

46. No, but if you own the equipment, leads to some better understanding

As I related in the post below, I've interviewed both male and female OBGs extensively for my job over many years.

There are MANY wonderful male OBGs, and some really hopeless female OBGs. But by and large, almost all the appalling statements I've heard about women have come from male OBGs, particularly in relation to female sexuality. And it's not just age -- I've heard both young and old male OBGs imply that they don't really think their patients over 40 are having sex, and if they are, they aren't or shouldn't be enjoying it. I have NEVER heard anything like that from a female OBG, that's for sure. I've also heard the fear of breast cancer being described as "irrational" or "illogical" by male OBGs, who cite the higher statistical incidence of heart disease, because they just don't get the horror involved, just like I don't cringe when I see some guy kicked in the nuts. It boils down to what's familiar and what's foreign.

There's also a lot more dismissal of pain symptoms as being "all in the patient's head" among male doctors vs female OBGs, who tend to take their patient's complaints more seriously.

So no, "we" shouldn't be looking for OBGs who are mothers necessarily, but I sure as hell want one with a real gut understanding of the female body as the standard vs. the foreign.

[KyuzoGator]

55. When I said "we" I meant me and my fiancee.

I might have been a little unclear on that.

[Patiod]

59. Sorry for the snarkiness

I get all het up about the topic! (given some of what I've had to listen to)

Seriously, I don't know that an OBG who has given birth is what's crucial, but it certainly helps if they view female anatomy as standard issue vs. special-order.
:-)

[Katherine Brengle]

69. I think that if you are pregnant, and looking for a doctor, this is a good

thing to look for. A woman who has had children will be able to relate to you and your concerns and problems better than one who has not. All of the medical training in the world can't make a person truly understand what it is like to be pregnant and to give birth to a child.

[0rganism]

75. Sure, go for it, couldn't hurt a thing

My hunch is that most female OBs and midwives have already been through it themselves, but it's just a hunch. Be as selective as you can afford to be. Pregnancy is a lengthy and difficult process with a lot of potential pitfalls, you'll want to have professional help from someone in whom you have the highest possible degree of confidence, for your own sanity if nothing else.

[pitohui]

85. sheesh

come on, people, that is plain silly, do i have to look for a doctor who has had bypass surgery because otherwise he wouldn't rilly, rillllly understand how me as a cardiology patient

i can only see an oncologist who has been thru chemo?

how far does it go?

maybe i can only take my pets to veterinarians who are actual dogs and cats

there have been some fine male ob/gyns including some who have been shot or bombed for abortion rights

[Patiod]

41. I've done enough research with both sexes to agree 100%

I would NEVER go to a male gynecologist, even though there are some wonderful ones out there, and some lousy women.

I did a focus group one night with OBGs . By coincidence, the women sat on one side, and the men on the other and it turned into a was between the sexes. The topic was a SERM, a class of drug that is/was being investigated for it's potential to prevent breast cancer, strengthen bones, and maybe even revive sex drive (it's currently given to breast cancer survivors to prevent recurrence)

Anyway, one of the male OBGs said "I wouldn't want my patients taking it and getting all horny and going out and getting an STD". The women were horrified! "I guess if you treated men, you'd avoid Viagra, then?" one of them challenged..

On another topic, a guy said "I don't know why my women patients don't like getting mammograms". The women looked at him, stunned. "Uh, and how eager would you be to get your penis pressed tightly between two cold plates?" They were absolutely stunned by the utter cluelessness of their male colleagues.

Interviewing on the same topic, I was HORRIFIED by how many male OBGs assumed that their women patients over 40 probably wouldn't WANT a revived sex drive, and some younger guys seemed kind of shocked that women over 40 even HAD sex.

That project was enough to convince me -- NO MALE OBGs for me!

[Katherine Brengle]

70. UGH!!! I love men, but sometimes they are really stupid, lol. n/t

[Katherine Brengle]

68. I have a really terrible story about a male ob/gyn...

The main doctor at the office I go to is a man. He's also a fundie, but that doesn't really matter to me. There are two female midwife/nurses who also work there, and I always see one of them when I go to the office. However, when I was in the hospital in labor with my daughter, the only person from the practice who was available was the male doctor. He was leaving in a couple of hours for a vacation in Las Vegas, but he came in to "check on me" and while he was there, the hospital staff decided that they had to break my water manually because it wasn't happening on its own.

He was the one who did it, and it was the worst experience of my life. He was completely uncaring, offered no kind words to help me get through it, just came in, caused me an immense amount of pain, and then left to catch his plane.

One of the nursing students from the hospital (along with my husband and best friend) sat there and held my hand while I cried...

(To be fair though, the doctor who actually delivered my daughter was a wonderful, sweet man--he had the silliest moustache--and if I were ever going to see a male doctor, I would look him up. Just thinking about him now, I am smiling... So they aren't all bad guys.)

[Clark2008]

83. My OB is male and in practice with his Iranian-born wife

He even asked me if my fiancee (now husband) was "Sponge-worthy."

I have no worries. ;)

[Digit]

11. One almost killed me....

I was five months pregnant when my baby died inside of me. It might sound "odd", but I knew EXACTLY when he died. My OB made me keep carrying the corpse, "just to make sure". I had my GYNO do an ultrasound, no heartbeat, and meanwhile they also noticed my uterus was shrinking. This went on for over a month, and since I was still "showing", I would get the questions on when my baby was due. You don't just tell people you don't know what was actually happening, so I had to play along. It was heartbreaking for me at the time.
I had to have my GYNO intervene and finally had a D&C.
Sorry to be gross, but he said my body was absorbing it.
I could have been poisoned and died.
Damn Fundy!
Now, this was many, many years ago, so it is behind me now.

[noshenanigans]

15. Wow

What a horrible experience. I'm so glad you've been able to move past it, as it must have been very very difficult.

:hug:

ETA: As a woman who, unfortunately, has had to make the difficult choice to have an abortion, I now feel really compelled to do whatever I can to help others in that position, but don't know where to start. Does anyone have any advice?

[northofdenali]

23. Yes, noshenanigans, get thee to Planned Parenthood!

It is one of the most difficult choices a woman has ever had to make, and the anti-choicers always find the gullible woman sad over her decision - then exploit her.

Planned Parenthood gives ALL the options, and values anyone with any experience in motherhood, having to choose, pregnancy, etc. You have the empathy they need in a volunteer.

I hope the quack (NOT a physician, in my book) gets what he deserves.

[Nobody]

76. This is a good idea, you may also want to

find a local chapter of NARAL and see if they have a clinic escort program. Once the woman has decided to abort, has jumped through all the hoops, only to find that there are a bunch of screaming meemies yelling cruel words at everyone who walks by, she's put through more aggravation than she needs to go through.

There are a bunch of screaming meemies at the clinic I escort for, and they are aggressive and their ringleader seems to have had stage training, her voice carries and she knows how to avoid screaming herself raw. There is one female who looks young enough to conceive, the other women are post-menopausal, and the vast majority are male.

They even accost obvious non-OB/GYN patients.

[tenshi816]

25. What a horrifying experience!

I too had a baby die inside me, but I was only at 12 weeks and not showing yet, and my experience was completely different from yours in the way it was handled. As soon as it was confirmed that my baby had no heartbeat, it was recommended that I have a D&C two days later, after another two rounds of ultrasound. Yes, it was heartbreaking for me, but your experience puts it into perspective. At least my situation was dealt with quickly, whereas yours was dragged out for weeks.

Your OB should have been censured by the AMA at the very least. It's shocking what happened to you.

[Katherine Brengle]

71. I am so sorry...

I don't really know what to say, but I am so sorry that you had to go through such a terrible experience. I can't even imagine what that must have been like.

[Digit]

88. It was very traumatic at the time, and it cost me my marriage

It was about 28 years ago now, and much healing has taken place in my heart.
Losing my child was one heartache, as I felt I had a real connection to him. Like I stated, I KNEW the instant he died inside of me. It was very weird in a way, because you think that logically this can't happen. The doctor verified right afterwards he could not get a heartbeat.

I don't want anyone else to go through this ordeal.

A few years later, I remarried, and got pregnant once again. I once again began spotting. By this time, I was 32 years old and had a amniocentisis (sp?) test to see if there was a problem since I already had a history of sorts. I wanted to know if there WAS a problem, WHAT it was, and would decide what to do at that time.
I really cannot say what I might have decided if there HAD been a problem since none showed up in the tests.
I delivered a healthy baby girl a month early.
She is now a senior in college with a 4.0 avg.

[benddem]

12. Find someone

who knows the nurses in the Delivery Rooms or on the Post Partum floor. They will be your best guides.
As a nurse whenever I moved to a new town...I went to the hospital cafeteria and asked around about GYN's best docs I ever found. Of course don't ask any fundie nurses.

[FlaGranny]

13. Since that doctor

made the decision for his patient that she should have the baby without asking her, if that baby has any medical problems, or needs special future care, I would make sure to sue the doctor for future costs of caring for the child.

Years ago when I was first married I went to an OB/GYN partnership. Both doctors were really nice and I liked them. I went to them for my first two kids. Then I told them I was interested in birth control. That's when I found out they were practicing Catholics and would not prescribe it. They sent me to Planned Parenthood, where I had to see a new doctor. I wasn't too happy about it, either. That was back around 1959 and 1960. I'm glad that no problems resulted because I would not have been given all options.

Doctors who use their religion as guide to their treatment, rather than standard and accepted care, should be required to inform their patients that all medical options may not be open to them because of the doctor's religious beliefs.

Edit: Fundy medical personnel should be required to wear badges so you can protect yourself from them.

[moc]

14. About those screening tests

I think the two issues (whether the doctor should have given her test results vs. whether a doctor's personal beliefs should influence practice) need to be kept separate. First of all, based on the limited information you can provide, I can't say the doctor acted inappropriately. When you refer to a test "relatively early on", it is likely that you are referring to something called a nuchal translucency test (done via sono), possibly with the additional blood test, that is given around 12w gestational age. The other possibility is often referred to as the "quad screen" which is a blood test done around 16w gestation.

Both tests are used to estimate a probability of Down's, say 1/1000. Women also have a risk of Down's based on their age, which as you probably know, increases with increasing maternal age. Usually, a cut-off of 1/300 on the screening test is used as a flag to consider it a "screen positive". Women who fall into that range are counseled to get a level 2 sonogram and an amniocentesis (where they withdraw amniotic fluid with a needle and type the baby's DNA to determine specifically if trisomy 21 or other trisomy is present). However, when you say that the test "showed an unusually high probability of Down's in her baby and the doctor never told her due to the fact that the level shown in the test was not beyond a certain specific threshold" this suggests that the screening test was higher than the probability predicted by her age but was not greater than the 1/300 cutoff. Is the mother in question relatively young?

If this is the case, the doctor was correct in not telling the mother the level was "elevated". If someone's age related risk of Down's is 1/1000, getting a quad screen back that is 1/600 is not really meaningful. Also, it must be remembered that these are screening tests, and they have a VERY high false positive rate. The false positive rate is the proportion of women who get a "screen positive" who are carrying a genetically normal fetus. For the quad screen, the false positive rate is over 99%. That is, out of 100 women who get a "bad" report on their quad screen (i.e., have a value 1/300 or greater probability), 99 of them will have a normal fetus. The false positive rate for the first trimester test is a little better, but still runs around 95%. This means that these women may undergo an unnecessary amnio, and amniocentesis does come with risks of causing fetal loss.

Anyway, I know you said you didn't know the specifics, but I thought it was important to clarify the relevant medical details before people start going off on the doctor. Hope this helps.

[KyuzoGator]

21. Thanks for clarifying.

Really, no sarcasm. As I said, I didn't remember the details of the story and what you wrote seems to be a good explanation.

I don't know if this doctor did the right thing or not. But now I'm starting to wonder what kinds of questions we should be asking when our turn comes.

[phylny]

24. When I was pregnant with our third child, my AFP test was

indicated that I had a 1/200 chance of the baby having Downs Syndrome. My doctor told me that at my age, the chance should have been closer to 1/500. I had the test done mostly to screen for neural tube defects, because if the baby had had spina bifida, we would have been able to have a c-section to reduce trauma, etc.

My doctor discussed the results with me and we did two things:

1) At his suggestion, we saw a genetic specialist who went through our backgrounds and everything in detail. The doctor advised us that we could have had amnio or other tests, but that we needed to understand the risk, however small, in causing a spontaneous abortion if we had these tests done. She framed it well for us, saying that we needed to decide what would be "worse" for us - having a baby with Downs being born or having a baby WITHOUT Downs being spontaneously aborted.

2) My doctor repeated the test.

For us, the question wasn't abortion. I'm pro-choice, but being a married couple with the ability to provide for any child (plus, being a speech-language pathologist), I would not have aborted any child, Downs or not. Let me be clear, I believe the right should exist for others and respect people who would make a different decision. We made the decision to continue on with the pregnancy and be prepared for whatever happened.

My point is, since our doctor discussed the test results with us, we were able to make an informed decision and get more information to help us. He did not allow his beliefs (he was Catholic) to dictate my medical care or the dispensing of information about my pregnancy.

The second test came back with a 1/3000 chance of the baby having Downs, and she was born and was just fine.

[Bunny]

49. You've hit it right on the head.

There are many people who would not abort a fetus with Down Syndrome, but who might greatly appreciate the advance notice of 4-5 months before birth to prepare for the baby's arrival. They can get more education on the subject, come to terms with the diagnosis, etc.

When I was pregnant with my youngest, I had very early genetic screening due to my advanced age (38 at time of birth). If my daughter had a genetic problem such as Down's, I would not have had an abortion. But I would have wanted to know ahead of time. My brother and SIL have a little girl with Down's. It came as quite a shock when she was diagnosed after birth. They would have NEVER considered an abortion had they known in advance, but they could have had time to deal with the reality before it happened.

I hope this doctor gets sued. What he did was very unprofessional and cruel as well.

[Bridget Burke]

39. You managed to explain some complex matters in 3 paragraphs.

Why can't a physician try to do the same with a patient?

She needs to know all her options, so she can make the right decisions.

[alphadog]

60. ????

I would object to the idea that a physician should tell his/her patient that there could be something wrong with the patient or the patient's pregnancy if a test comes back within the normal range even if it's at the boundaries of normal. If a test comes back within the range of normal, the doctor would not have been remiss in considering it normal, as the bounds of normal have been set by years and years of scientific data. If a doctor were to do otherwise, s/he would be establishing arbitrary boundaries every time a patient's test came back at anything other than the exact mid-point on a bell curve.

[FlaGranny]

64. I don't know about your doctor, but mine

ALWAYS gives me the results of my tests, normal or not. Every patient should get their test results whether negative, positive, or borderline. If my doctor would not give me my results, he would no longer be my doctor.

[jwirr]

16. While I believe that this doctor should be sued because

he is forcing his religious views on another person, I must as the mother of a severely disabled daughter say that having a disabled child is not the end of the world! If you chose not to complete a pregnancy it is your choice but it is not mandatory to end it due to disability.

I was in a class discussion with this topic when we had a visiting professor from Germany setting in. He listened to us for a while - sitting directly behind me, as he knew that my child was definitely disabled. Finally he told us about Hitler and Germany. When you destroy all the "needy" you end the need for compassion and empathy. My daughter serves a purpose. That of alerting the world that selfishness is wrong.

So I am not against getting an abortion but just wanted to say that there are benefits to loving the child that needs you more than any other person.

[alphafemale]

27. Bless you and your daughter

:hug:

Every single person has something to give and contribute.

[PlanetBev]

17. I hope this asshole ends up selling shoes

I think your friend has one hell of a case against this dickwad. Surely he violated medical codes by withholding information. Please let us know how this case develops.

I think it's imperative that you identify a relgioulsly insane doctor before you let them touch you. I'm L.A. born and raised, so I have an endless supply of doctors with last names like Goldberg and Cohen. This enables me to avoid Fundie horseshit. Sorry, I'm biased.

[MsTryska]

63. *lol*

I was thinking the same thing....

thank god for the cohens, goldberg, patels, shahs, etc.

i don't knwo what i do if my only choice was fundie.

[mitchum]

89. I hope this asshole ends up LICKING shoes for whatever nutritional...

value can be gained.
Absolute scum.

[Czolgosz]

18. Some OBs have the opposite problem -- killing premature babies who have no

health insurance: <http://www.medicalconversation.com/showthread.php?t=53899>

[Czolgosz]

19. I hope they are not in Texas -- you pretty much can't sue an OB in Texas

due to the changes in the law.

[Horse with no Name]

22. You can if you are wealthy

The wealthy have entitlements to sue because they are worth something.
The commoners do not as their lives are worth a mere nothing.:sarcasm: But true.

[Czolgosz]

48. True, but "too many OB-GYNs aren't able to practice their love with women

all across this country."

[SoCalDem]

20. A doctor tried to talk me INTO an abortion in 1978

Regarding downs... If the mother is in a certain age group or has a history of it in the family, most doctors will suggest amnio to confirm or rule out.

It IS up to the patient to do some research too.. These days there is plenty of information out there ..

A doctor who is evasive, should be "fired", regardless of a decision the patient may or may not make..

[Katherine Brengle]

74. good gawd almighty! n/t

[SoCalDem]

82. I got pregnant 3 months after a c-section..and his exact words to me were

"Well THIS is a stupid thing you have done, what are WE going to do about it"?

I said.."What do you MEAN?

He said.."You should have a therapeutic abortion to avoid possible rupture of a healing incision"..

I said.."I'll take my chances"..

He WAS right, though.. I did have an abruption at 8 months, but we both survived it and that child is my biggest blessing :) (and I am NOT a religious person, but I KNOW he was just meant to be"..

The worst part was that I could not even change doctors, because I was a high risk patient, and we lived in a little podunk town and he was the ONLY one who would treat me..

[Heddi]

26. In Washington State, Dr's are under no legal obligation to tell u anything

From lab test results to "you're gonna die". Absolutely no legal obligation at all.

I know this because I'm in nursing school (will be an RN in June), and I asked my teacher (an RN) about this. It was in the context of what to do if a patient asks me, the nurse, if they're going to die, what their test results mean, etc. I asked if a doctor was obligated to tell a patient that they were going to die, or had abnormal lab results that indicated a problem, and she said ABSOLUTELY NOT. There's no obligation there whatsoever. It's not considered malpractice whatsoever. If I, the nurse, know this, I can approach the Dr and (supposedly) express my concerns. I could also let my nurse manager know that I felt the patient's care was being hampered by the Dr refusing to tell a patient that they were dying, that they had an incurable disease, etc, but that there was no legislation in place making it mandatory.

I asked if there was some kind of form (like a living will or medical directive) that you could have your Dr sign stating that you want to know any adverse test results, diagnoses, etc, and she said no to that too.

Fucked up, ain't it?

Btw--I don't agree that it shouldn't be legal. I thikn it's clearly malpractice if you withhold medical information from patients. Not all afflictions are physical in nature. There are very real economic and psychological impacts that go along with this information. A patient should have the option to NOT be treated, or tested, or cured, or whatever, but the Dr should not be able to make that decision for a patient by withholding that information from the patient.

I do not understand why people get into occupations that they have such moral qualms about. If an OB-GYN cannot handle the fact that s/he may, one day, be required to face unpleasantries in their career, they should perhaps choose a career that has a potential of unpleasantries.

I hate math. That's why I'm not an accountant. It would be perfectly unacceptable for me to go to school, become a CPA, then work for a company and refuse to add numbers, or purposefully make mistakes then shrug and say "Well, you know, I like being a CNA but I have a REAL problem with the math part...."

[The Icon Painter]

47. Thank You

For this information. I wonder how many other states have similar regulations. Here I had been cruising along expecting my doctors to respect my intelligence and level with me. Now - what to think?

I had a friend who was an ophthalmologist. He went into that specialty because he tended to faint at the sight of blood. Wise man to choose a field of medicine where he could actually to his job. Had he been like so many of the religiously insane, I suppose he would have chosen to be a surgeon. After all, surgeons make the big bucks and that's more to tithe to the lord!

[FlaGranny]

67. I live in Florida

and have worked in the health care field here for many years. In Florida, the patient has the right to the records.

SUMMARY OF YOUR RIGHTS
In Florida, you have the right to:
• See and get a copy of your medical record.
Upon your request, your health care provider must give you a copy of your
medical record in a timely manner, usually within 30 days. They must also let
you see your medical record if you ask.
Your health care provider is allowed to charge you for copies. They can also
charge you for postage."

[Heddi]

80. I'm sure we have the same right in Washington

however I can tell you that patients that request AND KEEP copies of their medical records are very few and very far between.

I mean, I see patients ALL THE TIME in the hospital--ask them if they've had surgeries and they're like "uh, yeah, once I got something operated on. I don't know what it was for. Cancer...maybe a heart problem...oh..wait..I think I had a blood clot....."

Ask them what medications they're on. They don't know. They take 2 blue pills in the morining and 2 white pills at night. Fine. So you try to find out WHY they're taking medication just to narrow the field. THey don't know. maaaybe high blood pressure. Maaaybe something with their thyroid. They might have a heart condition. They don't know. They're not sure.

People put far too much faith in their doctors. I see this primarily with older folks who have seen the same Dr since Moses was sent down the river. They feel that if the Dr says it, it must be true. If the doctor doesn't say it, it doesn't exist. They feel that asking questions of the doctor, even to clarify orders, is somehow overstepping their bounds as patients. If the doctor wanted them to know, or felt they should know, he would tell them. He is god. He knows all.

And even if you get your medical records, it's hard for people without any medical terminology or medical background to make heads or tails of a cardiac catherization report, or CAT scan report, especially since so much of the report has the procedural information (patient was laid on the table at 1315 with a systolic of 50 by doppler. Lidocaine 1% SQ was injected in the right medial femoral area and 14-gauge schwanz-gans insterted into the distal lateral right femoral artery....)

How many people know what a bilateral salpingooophorectomy is?

Hell--it's hard for ME to sometimes get the gist of what the hell they're talking about in medical records, and I"m a freaking nursing student. I feel bad for someone with an 8th grade education to get 50 pages of records and try to make heads or tails out of them.

Same for lab tests...so often, multiple tests are run that don't really have a bearing to the medical diagnosis (schisiocytes, band cells, abs neytrophyl %, etc), but are done just because they're part of comprehensive pannels, and don't MEAN anything unless additional tests are done. Medications alter tests. Previously diagnosed medical complications alter tests. To give someone a 4-page CBC, SMAK, Urinalysis, tryponin, etc, labsheet is like giving a 4 year old a novel written in greek and asking them how they felt about the paragraph on page 954....

BUT--that being said, I've had patients who understand that they are the best advocate for their care in the world. They get copies of EVERYTHING. They keep logs of EVERYTHING. They read the books, they ask the questions, and they know just as much about their diagnosis, contributing causes, etc, than the Dr or nurse does. Those patients are a relief. Ask them what meds they're taking and they'll tell you every med, every generic name, every dose, how the pills look, what the side effects are. Ask them what surgeries they've had and they know the day, date, time, dr, procedure, hospital, and length of hospital stay. Generally, those people carry around very large folders of medical information with them. They're great. It's intimidating to care for them, though, because they really know their stuff. You can't bluff with them and give them evasive answers if you don't know and have to bide time til you can find out from another nurse.

[FlaGranny]

90. I don't carry medical records

around with me :-) but I know my medical history, my diagnoses, and my meds. When I get too old to remember, I should carry my records, but by them I'll probably be too old to remember I even have medical records.

Yes, I know what you mean about some folks trusting their doctors like they were God. No one in my family is much like that. We all have inquiring minds and want to know the nitty gritty of EVERYTHING (not only medical conditions). I find out the darndest things because of curiosity. Someone made a post on another thread about Cuban rooftop gardens and, in researching that, I doscovered that urine is a perfect fertilizer. Who knew? ;-)

[Katherine Brengle]

72. That's terrifying--does Planned Parenthood or any other organization

have a position on this?

My medical information is mine to know--we go to doctors to make sure that we are healthy--what use is this if they have no legal obligation to tell us the status of our health??????????????

[Heddi]

81. I'm sure that MOST doctors DO tell their patients

and I'm sure an organization like PP would be among those who feel that such informaton should be legislated and mandatory. I don't think this is something that happens often--at least, I myself have never come across a patient who had a dire diagnosis in their chart, but were being led to believe that they would live for another 20 years. I have seen patients who are in serious DENIAL about what they've been told, but the Dr did his/her job and told the patient. They can't make the patient accept it.

I think the Dr's that do it are very few, and I'm sure that those who practice this (imo) barbaric method of bedside manner would be the ones who have treated patients for their entire lives and feel that that particular patient would be better off not knowing their status (due to depression, family situation, etc). Of course that's an incredibly paternalistic attitude (I know better than you what's better for you). But obviously it's done. I don't think it's common. I don't think it happens even often. But I suppose it does happen, and it's quite distressing that it's allowed to happen and isn't mandatory by law.

[NMMNG]

28. I hope she sues him right out of practice

I'm sick of these SOBs using their religious beliefs to eff with people's medical care. Believe whatever you want, but don't let it affect peoples' health. You don't have that right. If you can't handle your job because of your religion, get another job. :rant:

[dsc]

29. assuming this is accurate

the OB deserves to be sued. It is one thing to honestly refuse to perform abortions and the like. It is quite another to dishonestly refuse to give results that you fear a patient will misuse.

[Warpy]

30. "Some indicator test?"

That's the only part of this story that smells bad. Down's is detected by a DNA analyisis. It's either positive or negative.

However, any doc who fails to disclose information to his patient WILL be sued out of practice because his insurance carrier will jack up his premiums so high that he'll have to either switch specialties or find an administratve job, and that's how it should be.

Fundies need to be reined in and soon. Anyone in health care who finds their religious scruples prevent them from delivering that care need to get into jobs that don't require contact with suffering human beings. It's as simple as that. If Jesus says you can't dispense a pill, go someplace where you won't have to dispense any pills.

And yes, obstetricians need to be asked up front about their religious scruples. Morbid religious baggage can endanger a woman's life if something goes wrong with her pregnancy or delivery.

[KyuzoGator]

34. As I said, I don't remember all of the details exactly.

Sorry if I made the story smell bad as a result.

Anyhow, this poster explained the process very well:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=437110&mesg_id=437390

[Bunny]

51. You can get a mother's blood test done early in the pregnancy that

can give an indication that Down's MAY be present. If this screening test came back positive, you would need further testing to determine if Down's is actually present. No DNA required at that early stage.

[Kaylee]

31. It is not so much as asking about their religious beliefs, but....

whether or not they let those religious beliefs influence how they practice medicine. I have no idea whether or not my OB/GYN opposed abortion, however, when one of my daughters initial tests for downs syndrome was abnormally high, I do know that they gave me all the information I would need to make an informed decision as to whether or not I wanted to continue with the pregnancy. Luckily, from doing an amnio we found out the test was a false positive.

They clearly warned be prior to doing any pre-natal test, that some of them were optional and to think through what I was going to do with any information I got. Why did they offer the test, if they weren't going to divulge the results? It smells like a lawsuit to me.

[recoveringrepublican]

32. Yikes, can't remember the name of the exact test "triple screen"?

but it's pretty much standard, if I remember correctly done around 16 weeks. It has a high false positive, so I hated taking it for that reason. This doctor has lost his mind! "probably would have killed the baby"!! WTF! I really can't say what I would have done with such information, most likely would be thankful that I had the time to gear up on information about what to expect and how to care for DS child.

[Crayson]

33. KNOWLEDGE is POWER

KNOW !!
Know what's written on those damn medical test reports.
Demand a copy and enter every single digit into the internet search engine.
Ask whatever cryptic little thing means.
The internet tells you much more than the little note in the box and often much less cryptic.

Same goes with ANY MEDICATION you receive.
Check and double-check and weigh risk/utility.

And if in doubt:
Get a second opinion from another doctor!
Call a hotline.
ASK anybody.


It's your life and it's worth the effort.
Doctors are only humans with all their flaws.

[LWolf]

35. I never asked my obstetrician about his political or religeous background.

That was almost 3 decades ago. Happily, I won't be bearing any more children. If I did, I might have to update the obstetrician selection criteria. :wow:

[ScreamingMeemie]

36. Due to the intimate nature of one's involvement with their O/B, I selected

mine based on her straightforwardness, gender, and references. She is an Irish Catholic with kids of her own, but as she said,"It's your life...your decisions." I've never had a problem. I don't know why anyone wouldn't be careful when chosing any type of doctor

[ck4829]

38. Failing to disclose that is not ethical

I hope she sues him into bankruptcy.

[LaraMN]

40. I had a prenatal diagnosis of Down Syndrome.

The test you're referring to must be the triple, or quad-screen blood test they use to check for increased likelihood of birth defects (certain anomolies in levels of components within the blood suggest an elevated chance of the presence of a defect.)

The test is optional, it is ONLY used as a screening for these issues. If hers was elevated significantly, I think her doctor had a duty to inform her. He, in essence, made de facto medical decisions for her that she was fully capable of making herself.

and for any lurking fundies, I'm a "horrible" non-religious heretic, and I chose to have my son, despite his extra chromosome. No doctor has any right to force a woman's pregnancy to continue after a serious diagnosis, but they've also no right to make speculative decisions based on what they "think" she might choose.

If that doctor knew the baby could have Down's, he also deprived it of necessary medical services. I had extensive level-2 ultrasounds to check for common, dangerous defects associated with Down's, once we knew Jack had it. The diagnosis also altered our birth plans.

That is so horribly irresponsible, I can't even fathom it. He should lose his license.

[alphadog]

61. I don't think we know enough...

to decide that the doctor's initial actions in not pursuing further testing were irresponsible. His comments after the birth were unprofessional and cruel, but the initial poster did state that "the doctor never told her due to the fact that the level shown in the test was not beyond a certain specific threshold." which says to me that the test probably was in the normal range but at the boundaries of normal. If within the boundaries of normal, I don't think he was being irresponsible.

[Norquist Nemesis]

42. Perfect example of what anti-abortion crown thinks

It is taken out of the hands of the individual. What they don't get is, regardless of their views/morals/ethics that once the reproductive rights of the individual is put in the hands of the government, the government can change it's mind stating a case of 'best interests of the country'.

So, while they're fighting to make it illegal by using emotional blackmail now, in 100 years the government may just decide there's too many people in the world and population needs to be controlled. Think China.

[interupt]

43. Wow

Coming from a background as an ex nurse and recently my sister in law has given birth to a Downs girl, I can understand where you are concerned.

Straight up. This Dr will burn in this case. He failed in his Duty of Care to give proper care and advice in prescribing treatments and providing appropriate and correct information in relation to the "mothers" medical care. The dickhead can throw theories out of his ass or swear in court that the test results were within limits (I bet that will be his defence, and then throw "he said she said" back at the plaintiff) It is not his place to make a judgement call on what the patient might do, its entirely up to the patient. It also doesn't matter how the Doctor would approach a particular case as its not the Dr that is going to make the ultimate decision...or have to live with the consequences.

In your case, the thing here is be fully informed of your rights, your choices and your ability to inform your health practitioner of your decisions. If you are unsure, the Internet, while not wholly accurate with information, can give you good pointers to go back to your Doctor to ask the right questions.

Also discuss your options with your Dr and your partner what you feel your decisions would be given this choice. Ive learned that Downs is not as debilitating as I once thought, and despite the howls of the fundie freaks, no woman lightly chooses to terminate a pregnancy.



The Vice President shot a man in the face? Wow Aussie news must be slow, we were busy http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18166392-2,00.html">approving RU486 so that http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18163615-2,00.html">100000 babies can be aborted en masse according to our catholic church and http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18170677-29277,00.html">fundie health minister.

[elehhhhna]

44. I fired an OB who INSISTED i have amnio--

HMO doesn't want to deliver expensive birth-defect babies, ya know. I was 36. He was an asshat.

Alays insist on a female OB and a male hairdresser and you'll be fine.

One more random thought: Down Syndrome children are loving and upbeat. Who's to say they are not at the pinnacle of the karmic wheel?

[stanwyck]

50. totally disagree

on the male hairdresser. As a female, I don't discriminate against other women. I've had female hairdressers for the past few years and they're great.
(And the male OB-GYN who delivered my twins (22 yrs. ago...) was wonderful.)

[Dulcinea]

56. Same here.

My hairdresser is a woman. We talk politics when she cuts my hair!

The (male) OBGYN who delivered my 2nd baby in the emergency room was great, & he tied my tubes a year later.

YMMV.

[Katherine Brengle]

73. I agree about children with DS (at least the ones I have known), but...

raising a special-needs child is a serious challenge and can be very expensive--parents have the right to know if they might be faced with that challenge.

[lapislzi]

45. Actually, yes

Not religious beliefs necessarily, but I choose a doctor with great care. I made sure at the first consultation with my ob/gyn that she is pro choice and willing to perform abortions. What was chilling is that it was actually quite difficult to get her to admit this. Apparently she has been harassed by the anti choice faction in the past and suggested that it's almost unsafe to admit that you've performed abortions or are willing to do so.

As for religion, I am always suspicious of people who wear their religion on their sleeves. I find the whole business (of religion) distasteful, and I would rather it be left out of a professional relationship, because it is inappropriate. If a doctor asked me about my religious beliefs (and I don't mean a casual holiday-related inquiry), I would RUN not walk the other way.

[OnionPatch]

52. It was a hard call for me, too

I was 41 when I got pregnant with my daughter and I did have an amnio. Luckily it turned out fine but I sensed a sort of snide attitude from my OBGYN about it, though, and just had a feeling that if I had decided to abort, she would not have approved. But what can you do? Can you just ask outright the religious affiliation of your doctor? I'm not sure. There were times when I wanted to.

In the same vein, there was a time when my husband and I could have benefited from some marriage counseling. But the last thing in the world I would have wanted is to have some fundies or right-wingers telling us how to live our lives. (For one thing, they have a higher divorce rate!!) And how would you know? George Bush being president of the United States goes to show that there's nothing stopping any crackpot in America from becoming a doctor and even easier to be a marriage councilor.

This is a good question but I don't have the answer.

It's sad that it's come to this in our country; that we feel we can't even trust the professionals in our lives anymore. :(

[MountainLaurel]

53. Hell. Yes.

I made a very conscious decision several years ago to only patronize physicians who were pro-choice. Otherwise, I could not trust that my health would be paramount in comparison to their dogma.

[Ladyhawk]

54. It's something to think about with any doctor. A fundy psychiatrist

messed me up. I've made a personal decision not to see a fundy ear, nose and throat specialist because he's a fundy. I was flamed when I told the original story of my visit to him. "You're being discriminatory!" Hell, yeah, I'm being discriminatory. I don't trust fundies. I've been screwed over by fundies my entire life. They shouldn't be doctors, psychiatrists, teachers or any other profession where they can hurt other people with their narrow-minded dogma. That's my opinion but even if I were in a position to turn my ideas into law, I wouldn't do it because it seems too extreme...like something a fundy would try to do.

So, the best we can do is try to avoid fundy doctors, teachers, etc. or be very aware that they will fuck you up, try to proselytize your kids, etc. Fundies CANNOT be trusted. Sorry, but that has been my experience. I've given them chance after chance and they always, always, always put dogma ahead of common human decency.

[bleedingheart]

57. that was completely and utterly unacceptable

sorry but that is just my two cents.

[cynatnite]

58. Doctor had an obligation to disclose everything

no matter his personal beliefs. Good to know she is suing him.

When you and your fiance are ready talk to your doctor ahead of time. Ask him or her about how they handle the disclosure of tests results and if anything would keep them from a patient.

[alphadog]

62. Legally, not true.

The doctor has no obligation to disclose a possible an abnormal result if the results were not above the "threshold" that the initial poster described, assumint that the "threshold" is the place where the majority of scientific evidence points toward the need for further testing. .

[Katherine Brengle]

65. My OB/GYN office advertises itself as a "pro-life practice" but they

don't hold back information. They just don't provide abortion services or anything. They do have a counseling center upstairs where you can talk to counselors about your pregnancy.

I actually ended up becoming a patient there because I was pregnant (unplanned) and was thinking about having an abortion. I didn't realize what kind of place it was until I was talking to them, and while I don't necessarily agree with this kind of thing (when it is used to bully and shame pregnant women), I am glad I ended up there instead of Planned Parenthood or something like that (not because PP is inherently bad, but because I might not have heard the other side--my decision was made).

They gave me an ultrasound and I heard my baby's heartbeat, and it did change my mind. I couldn't be happier with my decision--my daughter is a bright, beautiful, intelligent child, and I am glad that I was able to talk to someone who had been in my situation and could help me see my options when I felt helpless.

Of course, there is absolutely no excuse for a medical practitioner to withhold your health information or the health information of your baby. I find that deplorable and your friend has every right to sue this doctor and the practice.

[zonmoy]

66. what the woman should have done

is told the doctor that withholding the information was lying under any religious belief and thus a sin.

[MissB]

78. I didn't think of it when I chose an OB

My primary care dr (a woman) suggested a woman OB. I felt immediately comfortable with her. There were a few times during each pregnancy when I had to see one of her male partners for an appointment (because she was out unexpectedly or whatever) and there was a world of difference - the male OBs were wayyyyy too patronizing for my taste. However, my perinatologist was a man and he was fantastic - but he was also obviously well versed in pregnancy problems. :)

I think your idea to ask about tests and test results and "what-ifs" are quite acceptable. You'll also find that you want to explore pediatricians in the same manner.

For instance, even though my OB was fantastic, she sucked at parenting advice. My pediatrician believes quite strongly in attachment parenting - ala Dr. Sears versus the "train up your child" people - the Pearls. My OB once tried to give me some Pearl-like advice. I was horrified. She knew plenty about the process of giving birth, but had never been a parent.

[MissB]

79. Oh, and I hope your friend

finds the resources she needs to help her raise her new baby. The children that I've met over the years with Downs Syndrome have been the sweetest.

[pitohui]

84. yes, definitely, always get a second opinion

i did have to think abt this because my ob/gyn that i saw for several years was a terrific guy but his choice was to have a challenged (blind, mentally disabled) child and while he has the financial wherewithal to provide his son w. a great life i wouldn't have had the same means and would not be willing to make the same choice

i admit that if i had decided to get pregnant, i likely would have gotten a second opinion on the amnio and similar tests altho the ob/gyn was otherwise so excellent and had such a great bedside manner i would have been reluctant to give him up altogether

it's a shame we have to think abt stuff like this and not just trust our doctors but you really can't, i think

i actually believe my ob/gyn would have given me the right information but i prob. would have wanted to be certain, you got a control freak here

[One_of_8]

86. My two cents

I have one child, and I became pregnant with him when I was 35 years old. In the world of pregnancy, that made me an "at-risk" older mom, meaning that the risk of my child having a birth defect, or Down's Syndrome, etc., was higher than average. I live in California and have Kaiser insurance. I don't know what Kaiser may or may not suggest for pregnant women who aren't considered at a higher risk, but I was very strongly advised to have an amniocentsis (sp?) to screen for possible problems. They provided me with literature, my OB/Gyn spoke with me about it, and I most definitely was given the option of having the procedure done.

In my case, I chose not to. My pregnancy had been uneventful, and I had never felt better in my life. I didn't take the test because of the small risk to my unborn baby, and also because I planned to carry my baby to term regardless of the test results.

However, I do think it's a good idea to interview OB/Gyns before you select one. Ask them questions about any area that is important to you. You definitely want someone you feel comfortable with, someone you feel you can trust.

[leftchick]

87. I don't blame them for suing but I have to say

It fucking amazes me the people that do absolutely no research into their health and pregnancies. I left about five different Doctors trying (infertility issues) to get pregnant because I read and I read a lot. I knew they were not doing the right thing for me.

When I became pregnant I was prepared with questions about everything at every damn visit.

I swear folks are way too complacent these days and that is half of the problem.

[KyuzoGator]

91. Thanks to everyone who responded.

A lot of good feedback here. Thanks a lot!