Transphobia aimed at our enemies only hurts our friends

[AlienGirl]

Transphobic comments are not an innocuous way to blow off some steam venting about certain vicious right-wing windbags. Transphobia hurts all transgendered people in exactly the same way that racism hurts black people, anti-semitism hurts Jewish people, and homophobia hurts gay people. And it hurts the friends and families of transgendered people. Which includes me, which is why I take this very seriously.

There are PLENTY of things to say about nasty right-wing personalities without stooping to bigotry, and I know we DUers are creative enough and resourceful enough, and most importantly, ACCEPTING enough and KIND enough, to find ways to poke at right-wing jerks without accidentally poking our friends in the eye at the same time.

Tucker

[Bluebear]

1. Proudly recommended

From someone who journeyed to truth courtesy of DU friends.

[maddezmom]

2. another K&R

:thumbsup:

[northofdenali]

3. Understood, Tucker - I'd like to recommend that

fellow DU'ers read this post as well:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=221&topic_id=27592&mesg_id=27592

We're all in this together, folks.

[UncleSepp]

8. Trans Etiquette

Here are a few links and basics for people who might not know what will offend, or why some words and phrases are hurtful:

Trans Etiquette
http://www.firelily.com/gender/gianna/etiquette.html

Transgender men and women, as well as others who support or admire us, frequently find etiquette a challenging prospect. Etiquette or good manners is often hard to find today in a society where instant gratification and hurried personal contact tend to be the rule. People just meeting transgender persons, as well as those in the process of coming out, find themselves struggling to communicate yet not offend.

She-Male, Drag King, Drag Queen, Transsexual, Transvestite, Transgenderist?
Having a transgender identity is largely a matter of self-identification. Which term do we use? If you are uncertain how a person wishes to be referred, ask. If you do not agree with how someone refers to themself, that is fine. However, extend the courtesy of referring to them as they request, much as you expect for yourself. Finally, translovers, be aware that many transsexuals do not appreciate being called she-males or drag queens. She-male is primarily a sex-industry term, and drag queen tends to be associated with gay male crossdressers. Be informed before asking for that date!

He or She? Mable or Mike?
No article on etiquette would be complete without a brush-up on the subject of pronouns and names. In most circumstances a person's clothing and presentation should lend significant clues as to how a person wishes to be addressed. In social setting if you are not sure how a person wishes to be addressed, simply ask his or her name.

Definitions
http://www.firelily.com/gender/resources/defs.html
She, her, and hers
The correct pronouns for referring to any M2F transgendered person. These are always appropriate when the person is presenting as female, and are usually the safe bet when discussion gender issues related to that person.
A post-operative transsexual, who is still married to the same woman she married as a male, tells of an incident in which her daughter called from another room for help with her homework. Before she could reply, her wife called back, "Don't bother Daddy; she's doing her nails."

He, him, and his
The correct pronouns for referring to any F2M transsexual, or for a F2M cross-dresser who is presenting as male. The same rules of appropriate choice of pronouns applies as for M2F transgendered people.

More light on Transgender
http://www.mlp.org/resources/mlptgn.html

Names and Pronoun Usage

In general, the appropriate pronoun is the one which best describes the way the individual is living his or her life. A cross-living male to female transsexual or transgenderist, for instance, should be referred to with feminine pronouns (she, her, hers) regardless of surgical status; masculine pronouns should likewise be used for female to male transsexuals or transgenderists.

Cross dressers and drag queens/kings should be referred to with pronouns appropriate to the way they are dressed.

When writing about transgendered people quotation marks should never be used around names or pronouns.

Sexual Orientation is different than gender identity. It is the difference between who I am (gender identity) and who I am attracted to (sexual orientation). Transgendered people can be heterosexual, homosexual, bisexual, or asexual.

[northofdenali]

16. My best friend is transgendered.

I guess, in my "crowd" we are fortunate that there is little if any prejudicial attitude about anyone. It makes it easier, however, to forget that not eveyone is this lucky. When I first met my girlfriend, she still had a couple of years left to complete her surgeries/hormone treatments, and she feels it would have been so much more difficult if she didn't have these great friends around her.

To make a long story short, we were all proud to be witnesses at her recent wedding to her longtime beau and great rock-n-roller; presiding as minister was her mother.

It's rare one has the privilege to see such beauty in a simple ceremony.

Thank you, Uncle.

(Edited to add my thanks)

[UncleSepp]

4. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

Tonight, I was cheered to see a thread about a film being made about gay Muslims. Then, right there like a land mine, was a clearly transphobic post intended to be a "joke" about Ann Coulter. It was like seeing "FAG" spraypainted on the wall of a home where I feel safe. It's like that every time.

Maybe people just don't know better.

[Behind the Aegis]

5. Brava!

Well stated!

It is a shame that some just don't really understand the issues of transgendered people. Instead of making crass jokes, folks can jump over to the GLBT room and check out some of the threads about this issue.

[AlienGirl]

9. I think lots of straight people don't know that they should care

I suspect that many straight people just don't understand that it is an issue they should care about. Not that they don't see why they should care--they simply don't realize that an issue *exists* in the first place. Awareness is really the first step.

Tucker

[Behind the Aegis]

13. I agree.

However, it is not just straight people guilty of this. I know many of my gay and lesbian brothers and sisters who are just as ignorant. As you say, quite correctly, awareness is the first step!

[LeftCoast]

6. I agree 100%

:kick:

[Heddi]

7. Kicked & Reccomended. You're 100% correct

There are a few subjects that are still okay to be neandertal about on DU. There are things one can talk about in the most crude and offensive way and get away with on the basis of "anyone who is offended needs to lighten up", etc. Oh yeah, we're progressive about Gay rights, and how I hate those homophic freepers! But MANN coulter ha ha ha! Did you see the adams' apple on him/her ha ha ha, etc. There are other groups, but I feel that pointing them out (and most of us are aware of them anyway) would take away from the very serious and very real point of your thread.

I do not see how someone who calls themselves "progressive", "liberal", or "democrat" could ever allow themselves to not only MAKE offensive and bigoted comments about the transgendered (or someone they THINK is transgendered), but to ALLOW OTHERS to make those comments and accept it by either being passive and not addressing it, or active and encouraging it and participating it.

It's sickening. Somehow it is an "approved" bigotry. Why? I don't know. But it's sick. It's hatful. Honestly, it's old and tiring (yeah. we get it. Ann Coulter..MANN Coulter. Clever). I wish it would stop. That we could grow up and learn some fucking tolerance and manners and politeness.

Shit...we wouldn't stand for it if it were about blacks (remember the whole Niger Innis/Nigger Innis snaffu on the news?). But because it's a republican, it's okay. Because the republican is particularly abhorent, it's even more acceptable. Who cares if people's feelings are hurt, if stigmas and stereotypes are unnecessarily furthered. Who cares. Ligten up, etc etc....

[AlienGirl]

10. Yes, we wouldn't allow "AfricANN" to stand unopposed. nt

[Heddi]

20. Or "Nigger" Innis, either n/t

.

[NorthernSpy]

21. OTOH, I've been known to deride Bob Barr as an off-white supremacist...

Why? Because he's a crypto-neo-Confederate ultra-rightwing ass who -- it has long been speculated -- may be attempting to conceal something about his ancestry. Something that might make that rabidly racist "Council of Conservative Citizens" like him a bit less, were it ever prov'd...

Now, that doesn't mean that I actually seek to uphold -- or even recognize the validity of -- any sort of "racial purity" standard. It means that if one bigot happens to fall victim to his own brand of intolerance, I might not be above laughing at him. Sow the wind, reap the whirlwind, hear me giggling in the distance!


Maybe I'm just not as nice as some of you?

[Heddi]

22. but can you not see

where pointing out that Bob Barr may be of mixed race can send the message to people that are mixed race that there is something WRONG with being of mixed race?

Yes, he's a bigot and a complete ass. I agree with you 100%. But bringing up his ethnicity would give some the idea that ethnicity is something that one can either be proud of or ashamed of? That, in some cases, it can be a character flaw.

Now, I'm sure you're not saying that Bob Barr is a bad person BECAUSE he may be of mixed race, but rather Bobb Barrrr MAY be a person of mixed race who HAPPENS to be evil (which has a completely different meaning), it still begs to question why bring up the mixed race thing anyway? There are plenty of right-wing african americans. There's log cabin gays. There are women who are misogynist. There are "bad" people of every kind. By qualifing their "Bad" with their "trait", you associate the "Trait" with the "bad", even if that's not your intention.

I don't think it has to do with being nice. I think it has to do with being respectful. I don't see it being "nice" to not make jokes about people's assumed gender status, or someone's assumed ethnic background. I see it as being a normal human being who doesn't find it funny when supposedly progressive people can make rude jokes about transsexualism, or race, or size, or sexual orientation when it applies to people "on the other side". It's hypocritical and I think it absolutely makes us no different than the racist, sexist, homophobic freepers we so deride.

Look--I completely agree with you about the Bob Barr thing. He's a hypocrite at best, evil at worst. But how is speculating about his "ancestory" *ANY* different than republicans "speculating" about the legitimacy of John McCain's adopted daughter (who is black) and "speculating" that she came to be because of a clandestine affair between McCain and a black prostitute? Their entire premise wasn't so much that he had an affair with a prostitute (who hasn't?) but rather a BLACK prostitute. It wasn't that he had an adopted child, it was that he had a BLACK adopted child.

Again, I know that's not your intent, or the intent of most of the people who post about bob barr & ann coulter. But that's the message that comes across---Biracial wouldn't be brought up with regards to Barr unless it was a *bad* or *negative* thing about his character. John McCain's daughter wouldn't be brought up unless it was *bad* or *negative* to have an adopted child that is black. Remarks regarding the gender of Ann Coulter wouldn't be brought up unless it was *bad* or *negative* or *funny* to be transgendered.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

23. I think he was referring to Barr's supposed hypocrisy.

That's why the possibility of Barr being of mixed ancestry would be an ironic twist.

It has nothing to do with his innate worth as a human being, but it has everything to do with his public facade, much like Strom Thurmond's "tryst" with his black maid in the 1920s should be pointed out, obviously not to disparage interracial relationships (though that particular situation was clearly an act of rape), but to shine a light on his hypocrisy, just like with Bob Barr.

Another situation involves Dick Cheney's political affiliation and his lesbian daughter, but you get the point.

[Heddi]

30. I understand the point being made

but I don't agree with the way that it's made.

Just today there was a thread regarding Ann Coulter voting in the wrong precint. A DU'er (with 1000+ posts) made a comment that they hoped the bitch went to a man's prison if she was a man so that she could become bubba's bitch, and if she's a woman, end up in a woman's prison where she'll be raped by a lesbian with a plunger.

That's vile. And not only is it vile to wish rape upon someone, but to connotate the rape with supposed gender identity (if she's a man, go to a man's prision...if she's a woman go to a woman's prison, etc).

It's hurtful. What *IF* Ann Coulter is a transsexual? So what? Does that make her any more or less vile? Of course not. However, adding the connotation to EVERY FREAKING THREAD about Ann Coulter that she is a man, or was a man, or whatever, continues to associate trassexual with vile human.

Transgendered folks generally are pariahs in their own communities. Straights want nothing to do with them. Gays want nothing to do with them. There's still the connotation that transgendered = mental illness, transgendered = dual sex freak. And those are the connotations being made with regards to Ann Coulter.

I, personally, find nothing funny about someone being transgendered. I find nothing sickening about it either. However, when Ann Coulter is referred to as Mann Coulter, or comments brought up about her man hands or adams apple, it is being done as if the concept of Her being a Him is funny, or sickening, or both.

Sorry, but I disagree with you on this issue in the fact that while I understand WHY someone would bring up Bob Barr's alleged mixed race ancestory as a way to make a point about his hypocritical action against non-whites, I don't think it's a great way to make an argument. I don't think making jokes about fat republicans is funny. I don't think making jokes about black mistresses and black children are funny. I think it's a cheap-shot way to make a joke but paint it in an "Oh, well, I'm not making fun of their black daughter, I'm just showing what a hypocrite they are" blah blah blah. It's still hurtful to those that are transgendered, or mixed race, or who have black adopted children or whatever, because the focus is on the race, the sexuality, the gender, the height, the weight, NOT the issues at hand.

I think there are far better ways to deride Ann Coulter without making references to her assumed gender. There are better ways to point out Bob Barr's hypocracy without bringing up his assumed mixed race ethnicity. There are better ways to lambast Rush Limbaugh without commenting on his weight. Without realizing it, you're not only making Ann Coulter the butt of the joke, but transgendered folks in general as well. You're not only making Bob Barr the butt of the joke, but mixed race people as well, etc.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

31. I disagree, though you do have a point.

For me, humor really has no boundaries and should not be beholden to any group, oppressed or not. There are no sacred cows in comedy, and I believe using various traits in such humor is okay, depending on the context.

I myself am of Indian descent and have heard various jokes regarding my ethnicity. The overwhelming majority of the time, the jokes were made by good friends and/or in jest. Again--context and intent.

I've always been against separating ourselves by ethnicity, religion, etc., and humor is one way to diffuse such attitudes. That's just my take.

[AlienGirl]

32. But it isn't up to you to tell others it isn't offensive to them

Transgendered DUers have said that those jokes hurt them. It is not anyone else's place to tell them they shouldn't be hurt. They ARE hurt, and it's the obligation of people who do not wish to cause others pain to refrain from making hurtful comments. It's just good manners.

Tucker

[UncleSepp]

34. There's some really good trans humor

Trans people poking fun at themselves can be pretty damned funny. Anybody who can't see the humor in the Great Bathroom Problem may be missing a sense of humor entirely. That, however, is not at all what kind of humor this is - this is using supposed transness as an insult, and that's entirely different.

Trans people are in far too precarious of a position for derision of trans people in that way to be remotely funny. We are abused, raped, and murdered for being what we are: those who commit this violence are given lighter sentences because of the subhuman status of their victims. We are too often denied health care, even lifesaving care, and we are suffering and dying for that. We are denied insurance coverage for cut fingers and broken arms because of the state of the rest of our bodies. In most states, we have no right to retain our jobs or our homes. We are pathologized and marginalized. No Mann Coulter joke is going to diffuse that. Raising awareness that we exist and that we wish to be treated as human beings is what will.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

43. I think we actually agree for the most part.

Like I said before, the intent and context applies to the joke, but using transsexuality (or ethnicity, religion, etc.) purely as an insult is wrong.

However, let me say that I am a huge free speech advocate, and free speech is not always pretty. That being said, let me say that we are still both on fairly common ground here. Nice to hear your input.

[UncleSepp]

11. Why it's important - Transgender Violence and Suicide

This might go a little way toward explaining why it's important to provide a safe environment:

http://www.metrokc.gov/health/glbt/transgender.htm

Suicide and self-harm
Both suicide attempts and completed suicides are common in transgendered persons. Studies generally report a pre-transition suicide attempt rate of 20% or more, with MTFs relatively more likely to attempt suicide than FTMs. There is some evidence that transsexual people are less likely to attempt suicide once they have completed the transition to the other sex.


http://www.queensu.ca/humanrights/tap/3discrimination.htm
Violence Against Transgendered People
Insufficient research has been undertaken to document the real extent of the violence experienced by transgendered people; however, preliminary research indicates that the incidence is very high.
Carrie Davis, Director of Operations for GenderPac2, reported in a speech in March of 1999 that almost 60% of transgendered people are victims of violence. GenderPac is also compiling statistics on the number of transgendered people who are murdered because they are transgendered. According to their figures, currently in the United States, one transgendered person is murdered each month. It is believed that this number seriously underestimates the real level of violence because these crimes are often attributed to gay-bashing or other causes.

In a preliminary study (Gender, Violence and Resource Access Survey), 50% of the transgendered respondents reported having been raped or assaulted by a partner. Thirty-one percent of the total sample identified themselves as survivors of domestic violence, when explicitly asked (Courvant & Cook-Daniels, 1998).

[Katherine Brengle]

12. You're right, and for the 2nd time today, I am ashamed...

I've definitely been on the wrong end of some of those jokes about Coulter, and I regret that. My best friend in the entire world is in a serious relationship with a transgendered person, and I never even thought about the words that were coming out of me...

My personal apologies to anyone who may have taken offense to these kinds of comments.

[AlienGirl]

14. Thank you for owning up and apologizing

It takes guts to do that. I salute your responsibility! :patriot: :hug:

Tucker

[UncleSepp]

15. Big hugs to you, Katherine

You're a brave person with a big heart :hug:

[UncleSepp]

17. Gorgeous and appropriate quote from 1922

Look through the archaic language and see what's here...

"Child of English Culture, reflect a moment, and ask yourself whether you are at last, in this great enlightened century of man’s existence, willing to grant justice and humane treatment to the androgyne and gynander? Do you still insist that these sexual cripples continue to suffer physical and mental torture for another century because your own pleasure bulks too large for you to hear and bear the truth about the despairing cross-sexed?”

-- Ralph Werther , 1922


We've got sixteen years before that century will be up. Will we make it? Or will we really have continued to cripple and torture people for another hundred years?

(Sorry I am posting a lot, but I was really upset earlier tonight. This is so beautiful, this whole thread... it has me in tears and posting like a madman just to let it all out.)

[Hekate]

36. That is a gorgeous quote. And you are not posting too much.

Uncle Sepp and Tucker: I'm just so glad this topic is finally coming to a head here. Thanks for your parts in it.

Some of the statements at DU in the past have seemed not worthy of who we say we are. As I keep saying of America itself: We are better than that.

Hekate

[Oeditpus Rex]

18. Okay, I'm a jerk

But it's not so bad to be a jerk when you learn from it.

I know a TG woman, and though I haven't seen her since the procedure, I'd never dream of saying anything to her that could be considered insensitive. It just didn't occur to me that that should also apply to people I don't know — even if I loathe them for other reasons.

Thanks, Tucker. :hug:

[applegrove]

19. Peace!

[Stockholm]

24. Good thread AlienGirl

K&R

[swag]

25. Point well taken.

Thanks.

[im10ashus]

26. K&R.

My transgender friend Lola has fought this type hate for quite a long time and has lost her transgendered lover Robert to ovarian cancer because of trans-phobic doctors wouldn't treat him. You can watch the documentary about them - Southern Comfort. :hug:

[inchhigh]

27. Nice K&R

[undergroundpanther]

28. EXACTLY

We can call ann Coulter alot of things without being a asshole to other people who are NOT assholes can't we?

Trans-people, Fat people,gay people.. There are alot of differences between people that have NOTHING to do with a persons lack of moral character and bully problems..like Gender, the way someone dresses, where they are from, their body weight...ect.
We can all agree here,Ann Coulter is a morally inferior piece of shit.

That's her real problem.

So enough with the trans-phobia and misogyny.Be honest. She's a damn bully.So don't act like Ann Coulter to trans-people, just to get a dig at Ann Coulter's smarmy ass. We are morally a better quality people than Ann Coulter is right?

Don't bash Coulter for her masculine appearances, bash her because she is verbally abusive and a bully . Just call out her real problem(bullying,verbal abuse,bigotry etc) . A person making a career out of being a bigoted bully,a verbal abuser, or abuser of power or trust that's intent on instigating the normalicy of harm twords others as 'entertainment' is one of the worst sorts of social degenerate IMHO.

[Behind the Aegis]

29. Kick!

[Duncan Grant]

33. Thank you for starting this thread! -- Kick

:grouphug: :kick:

[Hekate]

35. Thanks for putting it so well. K&R

One of my grad school classmates became transgendered after the age of 50, and I hope the changes in his -- now her -- life were everything desired. Sadly, her stepdaughter has cut my friend out of her life.

The daughter of another of my grad school classmates has also made that decision, and my friend says for the first time since her child hit puberty their relationship is on an even keel. My friend is completely supportive, and refers to her adult child as "my son" very naturally.

It has bothered me quite a bit to keep reading certain DUers' characterizations of Ann Coulter in bigoted terms having to do with her supposed gender and sexuality.

Those qualities, whether true or not, have nothing to do with the fact that Ms Coulter is venomous, toxic, hyper to the point one wonders what drug besides caffeine she's ingesting, arrogant, so biased she can't think straight (pun intended), misanthropic, classist, oligarchic, and so on.

Hekate

[tishaLA]

37. Excellent post

It's not surprising to me that many TGs choose to remain silent about it on DU. It too often looks like enemy territory.

[jarab]

38. kick!!

...O...

[Der Blaue Engel]

39. Thanks, AG, for putting this brilliantly

And I'm glad to see so many people agreeing on this thread. :)

[The Magistrate]

40. Well Said, Ma'am!

[suffragette]

41. Nicely said

You're good folk, AlienGirl.
:hug:

[DemExpat]

42. Kick for an excellent post.

:thumbsup: Tucker.....

DemEx