Are there any issei, nisei, sansei, yonsei, gosei on DU boards?

[Kickin_Donkey]

If you know what those words mean, you know who you are.

The reason I ask this, is that I think Asian Americans in general, and Japanese Americans in particular, are underreprsented on this board, for whatever reasons. I think that possibly, through "benign negligence," a serious racial issue is being put aside on these boards.

I need to know if there is any sort of Japanese American or Asian American constituency in this forum, otherwise I'll be talking to myself and I don't think I'll get much traction with the DU "mainstream" (judging by previous experiences here).

So, give a shout and let your presence be known.

[Yollam]

1. White boy here with Japanese wife and mixed kids...

We'll be moving back to Japan in just over a month. Not that that really counts, but in a few years, my kids will be dealing with some of the same issues, although it will be in Japan.

:toast:

[Kickin_Donkey]

2. Cool ...

:hi:

[ChairmanAgnostic]

5. ditto, sans human kids. Ours have four legs.

but we are thinking about moving - depending on what happens in 2006.

[MadisonProgressive]

3. I think DU is pretty open to diversity

I don't know what experience you've had, but most of us seem to be thoughtful, feeling human beings. I won't speak for the freeper trolls though.

[Kickin_Donkey]

8. I agree, I think DU is pretty open to diversity ...

But, like I said in my opening post, there might be some "benign neglect" with regards to language.

[MadisonProgressive]

25. I don't' know

I assure you that from by personal perspective I can't have benign neglect, because that assumes I have some knowledge that I'm neglecting something. I am here for you, as
I'm sure many others are. I have only love for those I don't know. After
I get to know you personally, all bets are off!

[Tiggeroshii]

26. I think DU is an english forum.

We all read and type english here, and that's the language that brings us together. I think, however, that it could help bond a lot of people in this forum, fi we opened up to the cultural forums here-as there are forums for pretty much any language, nobody really uses them. It would be cool if we all got into them though.

[MadisonProgressive]

28. I think any member can suggest a new group.

[Kickin_Donkey]

39. When I said "benign neglect" with regard to language ...

I wasn't referring to national languages such as Japanese, Chinese, Korean, etc. I was referring to racist language on DU regarding Asians.

There's a DU member who has the user name "jap" on this board. As you know, that is a pejorative term for Japanese Americans and Japanese equivalent to "n*gger."

I've protested the use of this name, but to no avail. Apparently some people on this board don't know that it is a racial epithet. They'd never allow n*gger or fag or gook or fuck or cunt as user names, but for some reason jap is OK. Context doesn't matter, as far as I'm concerned. The word shows up as a USER NAME on DU posts, slapping you and me in the face.

[oneighty]

4. No But I spent

three years there 52-53. Mostly Yokosuka but some time in Sasebo.

My dictionary does not make good sense of those words.

Ah but Google search tells me; issei foreign born Japanese-nisei American born Japanese. Nisei I was familiar with.

180 aka Yotsu Chi Chi.

haha

[Bluebear]

6. Arimasen....you will not be talking to yourself!

We are all Democrats regardless of the color of our skin! Having said that, you may pursue an "Asian American affairs" subgroup here....welcome!

[Kickin_Donkey]

9. No need for a subgroup ...

Just attempting to take a loose canvasse.

Thank goodness we are all Democrats.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

7. This Board Is Open To All In The Same Capacity And I Have No Idea What

serious racial issue you are talking about, since I'll be damned if I could find one.

And you'll be talking to yourself only if you choose to talk to yourself. There are more than enough people here who can relate, respond, advise and listen to anything you post regardless of their race. If their being a different race alone is enough for you to prefer talking to yourself over them then I do not believe it is DU with the racial issue.

[Gormy Cuss]

10. I'm not one, but living in SF I do know what issei,nisei, and sansei are.

If that's any consolation.:)

[Kickin_Donkey]

17. It's consolation if you also know the racial epithets for Asians ...

and that they are indeed epithets.

Apparently there are some people on DU who don't think they're so bad.

[Gormy Cuss]

22. Well I do know a number of epithets and stereotypes of Asians too

but you do know that any time you read someone using a derogatory term here, you are free to point it out. Most posters (other than trolls) aren't trying to use racial or ethnically offensive terms. I start out with the assumption that not everyone comes to DU with the same sensitivity to the nuanced meaning of some terms. I grant you, there are offensive terms that are obvious insults to any American who's finished grade school. Willful use of those terms is a sign of a troll in my book.

[Kickin_Donkey]

29. Well, I'll you what, I'm going to bring up the "serious racial ...

issue" that I mentioned in my opening post and which I have subsequently danced around. There is a vicious racial epithet that refers to Japanese Americans and Japanese that is the equivalent of n*gger. We all (actually not ALL) know what it is: three letters, Jap. And lest anyone think that it's not a racial epithet, they simply are ignorant. (I'm sure YOU know this, Gormy.) THERE IS NO NUANCE.

I've seen it come up a few times in DU Forums, apparently from people in the East, Midwest, or South, where there aren't a lot of Japanese Americans. Apparently the use of "Jap" on DU was done innocently. I've called people on it, and they usually get upset with me, saying I'm being too self-righteous. Excuse me? People are racially slurring me -- and THEY're upset? Others have claimed that "Jap" is the innocent, cute shortening of "Japanese," like Brit is for Briton or Aussie is for Australian. Well, I can assure them that it IS the equivalent of n*igger. That's why in my opening post I asked if there were any Japanese Americans on this board. WE ALL know what it means and take it as such. But, apparently, from my experiences on DU, that is not necessarily the case amongst some Americans, even on this liberal board.

The problem is that there is currently a DU member who uses the derogatory term for Japanese as their user name -- yeah, that three-lettered thing. I've complained to the both moderators and administrators -- the TOP people -- two times (six months apart) and have seen no action. My only conclusion is that they think that "Jap" isn't such a bad word. It was claimed that J.A.P. were the member's initials. But do you think that "fag" would be allowed as a user name even though a DU member's name was Fred Albert Gains? Would the user name "nigger" be allowed if the member's name was Nigel Germaine? Of course not, not for a second would those user names be allowed on DU.

So why is "jap" allowed?

Again, my only conclusion is that the powers that be don't think it's a racial slur. Or that there are so few Asian or Japanese (or knowing DUers like yourself, Gormy) who know it is an epithet of the worst kind. That's also why I wanted to get some sort of idea of the size of the Asian constituency on this board. I bet if it were bigger, there would be more complaints filed against this user name, and it wouldn't be allowed.

There's no excuse for allowing "jap" as a user name on this board, however initially innocently done, just like there isn't for "kike" or "wetback" or "dago." I hope you and others who know this will tell the powers that be that jap is a racist term and it's wrong for a user name.

[Gormy Cuss]

30. Well, that term is racist in a context where Japanese or Asians

are discussed, and you have an open invitation to PM me when a poster tries to say differently. I'd be happy to join the fray there.

On the issue of the user with that name, you have taken it up with the admins and that's the proper forum. I'm sorry that the user doesn't see the reason it's offensive.

[Kickin_Donkey]

43. I'm sorry that the administrators don't see the reason that it's ...

offensive. They have the power to deal with it. I thought this was a liberal board.

And context can't be used as an excuse for allowing "jap" as a user name. In a certain context, "fag" means a "bundle." Even though it has a benign meaning IN A CERTAIN CONTEXT, "fag" would never be allowed as a user name here.

[Hekate]

31. I haven't seen that user-name, but yes, it is offensive

As I told a California friend long ago when she used "jap" to indicate Jewish American Princess, it really was a two-fer in terms of racial insensitivity and offensiveness. Insult two groups for the price of one.

Could it be possible that those of us born close enough to WW II (ie boomers and their older sibs) realize Jap was a slur actively used by news media and government propagandists during WW II, but that those born 20 or 30 years afterward don't know this? We must educate them, if they are that ignorant, and call them on it if they already know.

Btw, I know what the string of -sei words means, having grown up in Hawaii where my teachers were often Nissei and many of my classmates Sansei. My undergrad major at UH was Asian history. But me -- I'm a haole, if you know what that means.

Hekate

edited for one typo and one second thought

[Kickin_Donkey]

45. Cool, brah ...

Your being a haole (Hawaiian pidgin for Caucasian, for those who don't know) and having GROWN UP in da islands -- that would make you a kamaaina, no?

Me, I'm a pure kotonk.

[Hekate]

49. I moved to the Mainland after my kids were born...

...but I made sure they each had a Hawaiian middle name -- a short one, because I didn't have a close friend to bequeath one of those elegant paragraph-long names. :-)

I still have a lot of aloha for the Islands, and Daniel K. Inouye is still "my senator" in my heart, AND I remember Neil Abercrombie's first political campaign! :-)

I love where I am (California's Central Coast) -- I will always live on the coast because not being close to the ocean doesn't feel right.

If you t'ink you kotonk, watch you head. :-)

:hi:

Hekate

[Bucky]

38. J.A.P. can also mean "Jewish American Princess"

But you can usually tell which definition is meant from the context.

[TahitiNut]

40. I'd NEVER let that one pass.

I'd be hitting 'Alert' before my screen filled. As one who was ('almost') engaged to a wonderful Shin-Issei gal (born, raised, educated, and employed in Japan before coming to the U.S.) for over two years, I'd be on it like vinegar on sushi.

DU への歓迎! :hi:

[Kickin_Donkey]

47. Cool, Tahiti ...

I never let it pass. I've hit the alert button, but nothing has happened regarding that user name. Go figure.

:hi:

[TahitiNut]

50. Well, a heart-to-heart with Skinner ("consciousness-raising") ...

... might help. As one who moderated on DU for six straight months (I'm still recovering), I can assure you that mapping the often-fuzzy line between "thick skin" and "unacceptably offensive" is a continuing surveyor's nightmare. For those who might use such a term (and never use "nip") it's usually a matter of educating ... i.e. "Nippon" and "Japan". While the vast majority of DUers genuinely desire to avoid clearly hateful ethnic terms, many also (somewhat legitimately) are skeptical about hyper-sensitivity. (All I need mention as an exemplar is the word "bitch.")

That said, I'm personally experienced from both being around the bigots and some (awesome) Japanese-Americans and their descendants. My uncle, for example, adopted a bigoted attitude toward Japanese people, attributable, he said, to Pearl Harbor. Some of my closest friends are in 'mixed' (I dislike that term) marriages or have transoceanic parents.

I must candidly admit to having a strong prejudice myself. Yuko permanently rooted that bias in me - one that's aesthetic. I strongly appreciate the conventional arts like bonsai, formal gardens, and household decor/furnishings ... and still have this "thing" about her skin. (Wow!) As one who's moved by it, I'm also a pretty fair judge of Ikebana. :dunce:

[Hand]

11. Sansei here...

Well, pretty much anyway. Mom was Nisei, Dad was Jewish. Not that unusual these days, but I'm 56 years old and they were married in 1941. Not something that happened a lot back then.

Actually, they met in California, where intermarriage between Asians and whites was illegal at the time (not that the Loyal Sons of the Golden West or their bankroller William Randolph Hearst would have accounted a Russian Jew as a bona fide white man). From what I've read, intermarriage was less the issue than biracial children--so I'm William Randolph Hearst's worth nightmare and mightily pleased to be so! :evilgrin: :rofl: :hi:

PS Needless to say, both sides of my family are unreconstructed Democrats and always have been! :toast:

[Kickin_Donkey]

18. So that means you're TOTALLY neurotic ...

;-)

[Generic Other]

19. Me too

My mum was a war bride. My Dad was a WASP GI. They got married in 1954 after it became legal for an American serviceman to marry a Japanese national. My birth certificate stipulated that I would be an American citizen as long as I lived with my father and he acknowledged paternity, effective until I turned 18. I guess if Dad had abandoned us when he brought us back stateside, I would have been deported or reverted to being a Japanese citizen?!? Lucky for me that never happened! I would have never been a Democrat and never joined DU. I probably would have still hated Bush though. But I would not have been able to pronounce all the L's in my name (4 of them).

[Lisa]

21. I didn't know that about Hearst ...

Being Canadian, the only stuff I heard about him is from David Niven's book (which describes a trip to the Hearst estate in its heyday). Creepy!

The first time I learned about the California marriage laws was in that movie with Dennis Quaid and Tamlyn Tomita (their characters had to leave the state to get married -- and the narrator explains the situation very matter-of-factly). It freaked me right out.

A Jewish dad and a Japanese-American mom -- all you'd need would be for one or both of them to be involved in, say, union organizing, and not only Hearst but J. Edgar Hoover himself would have been having nightmares too!

[TahitiNut]

44. Nikkei.

:shrug:

[LSdemocrat]

12. I'm of South Asian descent

Not sure if that is what you are looking for or not

[Kickin_Donkey]

14. Howdy ...

:hi:

[Generic Other]

13. My mum is Japanese

I have been making my presence known on DU since 2001. I know there are others.

:hi:

[Kickin_Donkey]

15. Nothing like a Japanese mum

;)

[Yollam]

16. Or MIL - mine kept me in umeboshi and Curry Rice...

Rest in Peace O-Kaa-san.

[Lisa]

20. sansei here ...

Our family's Canadian, but we went through the same disruptions during the war as you did, on your side of the border. Apparently this is still on our security files -- my cousin applied for a sensitive government job, and was initially turned down -- plus an investigator showed up at her workplace, because she'd been red-flagged. Turns out the file was wrong, and had HER listed as being interned, not her mom!

It's kind of irritating to see the younger kids in the family becoming yuppies and voting Conservative (and nodding their heads mechanically when the feds talk about how ethnic profiling is for everyone's benefit). My dad got after them for that -- plus, he wrote a letter to the editor about bullying of Arab and Muslim kids during the post-9/11 hysteria, and got a very nice phone call from a local Arab-Canadian group, thanking him for speaking out for civil rights.

What really brought it home for me was the situation regarding Maher Arar (who was basically kidnapped by the US government and sent off to be tortured). I started to see, just a bit, what my folks gone through -- they were forced to leave their hometowns, lost most of their life's savings, and even the progressives were scared to defend them. (Some people did -- including E. Herbert Norman, who was later an ambassador, but died under mysterious circumstances, during the McCarthy era.)

[Kickin_Donkey]

23. I've met a few Japanese Canadians ...

They had roots in B.C., but after their families got sent to the camps during the war, the families didn't go back to the West Coast, mainly went to Ontario (the ones that I've met).

Japanese Americans/Canadians can relate to the post-9/11 hysteria directed at Muslims/Arabs/Middle Easterners here. Just like after Pearl Harbor.

[Lisa]

27. our family is scattered through Alberta and Ontario ...

Other people we know ended up in Manitoba, or as far afield as Montreal. My cousin now lives in Nova Scotia (where she plays in a folk-rock band).

Yes -- the government did pass laws to prevent Japanese-Canadians from resettling on the coast. Eventually they were rescinded, but by then, a lot of people were scared/disillusioned and elected to stay elsewhere in Canada. The restrictions on immigration from Japan weren't completely lifted until the late 1960s, so the population here tend to fall into the pre-war and post-war groups (I think the new immigrants are called Shin-Issei, or New Issei). What was particularly unfair is that Nisei kids whose parents chose "repatriation" to Japan (sent to Japan after the war ended) were NOT allowed to come back to the country of their birth. Imagine a typical Vancouver teenager suddenly getting dumped in a war-torn Japanese village -- this happened to one of my dad's classmates. She died, probably of TB, in Japan not long after (the drugs that dad sent her, after scraping together what was left of his savings, didn't arrive in time to save her).

I once had a huge fight with a guy who was not only a total reactionary, but a BC-bigot as well. First he made fun of my Ontario accent, and then I explained that my folks were born here in small coastal towns, decades before he was -- and that if not for the government, I would have been a BCer too. Then, to cover his blunder, he accused my folks of being dangerous subversives who probably would have carried out acts of terror if they hadn't been locked away -- giving me the splendid chance to explain that they weren't even teenagers at the time, and that if BC was scared of children, our country's security was shoddier than I'd thought! And that now, the government has changed its official line to "we locked up the people to protect them from enraged Canadians" (after it turned out that no Japanese-Canadian was ever charged with espionage).

My family now includes 2 doctors, an optometrist, an architect, 2 engineers, a nurse, and several schoolteachers -- who all together have a shorter official criminal record than, say, Dick Cheney. Except for me, they've spent -- or are spending -- their working lives in jurisdictions other than BC, so that same guy who was whining about not being able to find a doctor on the Island evidently didn't connect the dots there. The Hamilton school board, the Toronto Transit Commission, the Victorian Order of Nurses, the National Research Council, Hydro One (Ontario Hydro), and three different universities don't seem to view us as a security threat. Even the person who has regular access to the control rooms of nuclear reactors!

[Tiggeroshii]

24. boku wa yonsei desu!

my mom's sansei, i'm a hapa boy here...

[Kickin_Donkey]

37. I've seen your user name before, and I figured you had some sort of ...

Japanese link.

Let me guess ... you were born in 1962 or 74 or 86? Year of the Tiger. I'm a Tiger.

[Tiggeroshii]

51. actually no

That would make perfect sense, except when I was 10 I had a fascination with Tigger. I knew that if I put "oshi" after Tigger, it would sound Japanese. I swore it was Japanese word until I started taking Japanese at 15 or 16. Now it's just a Japanese sounding version of "Tigger." Cause you know, Tigger's cool. heh

[MadisonProgressive]

32. K_D

Can you please give a short description of what you mean by "issei, nisei, sansei, yonsei, gosei"? Other people here seem to know what you're talking about but I have to claim ignorance.

[Tiggeroshii]

33. issei is first generation japanese

nissei-second, sansei-third, yonsei-forth, etc... He is asking if there are Japanese Americans on DU and if so, what generation they are.

[TahitiNut]

48. Well, loosely speaking that's true.

It's the prevalent contemporary meaning. But purists would say that Issei are pre-WWII emigrants from Japan, hyper-technically those prior to the 1924 Immigration reform. Post-WWII Japanese immigrants might then refer to themselves as Shin-issei ('new' Issei). Traditionally, heritage, ancestry, and genealogy are important in Japanese culture. To the degree that importance is embraced by subsequent generations, such terms might be argued.

At least that's how this gaijin understands it. :shrug:

[Kickin_Donkey]

35. What tiggeroshii said.

The words correspond to Japanese numbering: ichi = 1, ni = 2, san = 3, yon = 4, etc., thus issei, nisei, sansei, etc.

It refers to what generation American a Japanese American is. My grandparents immigrated to America, making them issei; their children (my parents) are nisei, etc.

[karlrschneider]

46. Oh, now I feel like an idiot...I didn't even notice the obvious.

I never really learned how to distinguish between the names of the cardinal numbers, Ichi, Ni, San, Shi, Go....and the descriptives for quantities and I'm still a dummy on that. One day I asked for "san coca cola". ;-)
I finally learned mitsu though...we Americans are idiots, but I've been to 50+ countries and I at least try.

[stop the bleeding]

34. I don't know what you are saying, but based on the rest of your post

you would like a Howdy do.:toast::toast::toast: K&R

[Kickin_Donkey]

36. Well, howdy ...

:hi:

[karlrschneider]

41. I'm not familiar with 4 of those 5 terms but I've spent a lot of time in

Japan and I have many dear friends there who I keep in touch with. Won't ever forget my time in Hiroshima...spent a week there (this was all business-related, not military which was earlierand elsewhere) and I had some reservations about staying in a hotel a couple hundred meters from 'ground zero'. But I was never treated with anything other than the greatest kindness and respect there.

Walking through the "Peace Park" is something I'll certainly always remember.

[HuskerDU]

42. My Great-Grandfather was a Japanese man. But he lived in

Chicago. His son (my Great-Uncle) fought the Japanese in WWII as a Marine. It would've been a different story if they had lived in California.

[Moderator]

52. Locking.....

This thread is calling out a DU member.
If anyone has a complaint about a member,
please contact the Administrators privately.


Thank you.