Whittington's wife WAS there and there were several others

[KurtNYC]

I just wanted to make sure more of us saw this new information. The whole Valentine's day weekend angle with 2 men hunting with 2 women who were not their wives turns out to be wrong:

The other guests were Ms. Willeford, the ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein, and her husband, George, a physician in Austin; Ben Love, a West Texas rancher whom Ms. Armstrong called her "beau"; her sister, Sarita Hixon, a Houston museum chairwoman, and her husband, Bob, an insurance executive; Nancy Negley, an art philanthropist whose family once controlled Brown & Root, now a part of Halliburton; and Mr. Whittington, a 78-year-old Austin lawyer, Republican stalwart and presiding officer of the Texas Funeral Service Commission, and his wife, Mercedes.

At first Ms. Armstrong declined to say who besides Mr. Cheney and her sister had been her guests, but she provided the names after The Austin American-Statesman learned of Ms. Willeford's presence. Ms. Willeford spoke Monday by phone but declined to be interviewed again Wednesday. Mrs. Hixon and Ms. Negley did not respond to several messages.

NY Times: http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/16/politics/16tock.html?pagewanted=print

So Whittington's wife, Mercedes, was there. She was not with the hunting group when the shooting occured. Cheney's wife Lynn on the other hand backed out at the last minute according to the story. Also in that story is some stuff (yes) about how they told Whittington's wife which of course may or may not be the way it happened.

Regardless, I think this angle should be dropped. There is plenty of lying and cover-up going on about what happened that evening and we should focus on that.

[MrBenchley]

1. And the insurgency is in its last throes....

and Harry was more bruised than bloody....

Don't be surprised when this story changes.

[blm]

2. That's in contrast to reports that the delay occurred because they needed

to notify his wife. If she was there, why would it be reason for delay?

Looks to me like both stories can't be true.

[onenote]

7. The reports I read said they wanted to notify other members of his family

not his wife.

onenote

[blm]

11. If his wife already knew, where would there be reason to delay?

His closest relative supposedly, at that point, already knew.

[onenote]

38. he has grown children who they wanted to contact

Or so they have said. Whether or not its true, on its face its not ridiculous. Most people would instinctively agree with the sentiment that if their father got shot and its about to make the news, they'd like to hear about it from someone other than a reporter. So whether or not what Cheney claims is true, dwelling on it seems rather pointless.

onenote

[blm]

42. The delay was in helping the man, too. Not just the media.

And the secrecy behind the guest list is bizarre. Why not say the man's wife was there in the first place? Why say so 5 days later?

[onenote]

43. i agree

Cheney's obsession with secrecy is pathological. And that's the point. Even when he has no reason to be secretive, he is. Coming up with speculative theories to explain why he was secretive in this instance is a dead end imho. He doesn't need a reason. Its how he operates.




onenote

[txindy]

48. Because Whittington's wife is the sister of James Baker III

And thus can be counted on to go along with whatever fiction they concoct to protect Darth, even five days later.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x448048

[txindy]

15. Excellent point, that.

There was no reason for a notification delay if his wife was there.

Yet another reason to doubt what they say.

[FreedomAngel82]

46. Good point

Very interesting. Or were they far away from where it happened? :shrug:

[Vinnie From Indy]

3. Whoa! Sounds like one of them there Texas sized orgies!

eom

[napi21]

4. I agree, however, IF Keep every damn thing secret Cheney would

have just been up front late last Sat or early Sun AM, none of this crap would be being discussed, now, would it?

When you keep EVERYTHING secret, everybody assumes you have a reason why, and the speculation begins! The longer the silence, the more bizzar the speculation becomes!

[txindy]

5. This may very well be true.

Unfortunately, the source is the one and only Ms. Armstrong, the fount of constantly-changing "eyewitness" stories. So,.... HUUUUUUUUGE grain of salt with anything she says.

[onenote]

8. actually, the source I saw was Willeford

[blm]

and she is to be trusted implicitly because..............

make it believable, please.

[txindy]

14. The solid "eyewitness" who didn't see anything except running security

:rofl:

[onenote]

37. I was just correcting the record, not making a case for her credibility

[marions ghost]

16. oh yeah

and the phantom "hunter" is so convincing on this?

[Missy M]

6. Wow, that list sure keeps growing, pretty soon there will have...

been hundreds there at the time.

[lonestarnot]

9. Whistler's damn Mother was there, don't cha know.

[txindy]

17. That's why they need a 50,000 acre ranch

They're shoulder to shoulder at those parties, even with all that space. :eyes:

[lonestarnot]

26. bigass to bigass biggut to biggut... beerbelly to beerbelly

[txindy]

28. Don't forget another Texas feature...

Bighair to bighair. :toast:

[lonestarnot]

31. eeewwww yeah!

:toast:

[myrna minx]

35. Not to mention Teddy Roosevelt and Ernest Hemingway.

:rofl:

[lonestarnot]

44. twack me up minxcat!

:rofl:

[Botany]

10. But why did an eye witness to the shooting ......

..... Ms. Willeford aka the Swiss Miss not get interviewed by law enforcement? She was right
next to Cheney and she ups and vanishes the night of the shooting so as to avoid an AM meeting
w/ law enforcement. Ms. Willeford, is very much a player in this story. And as to the salacious
nature of any "relationship" w/ Cheney we need 7 years and 77 million $s to look into it.

[SoCalDem]

12. Yet, like everything they do, the information must be PULLED out,

thread by thread.. Why is it a state secret who was there?

Why not release the guest list AT once...To the POLICE who should have interviewed EVERYONE within an hour of the shooting..

Not in dribs & drabs AFTER people start questioning their "story"..

This is the kind of stuff that teenagers pull every day when they are in trouble with their parents..

Shame on the police for not investigating this like any other "incident".

It will be interesting to see what happens when some ordinary person tries the "Cheney" excuse after a hunting accident.

[NanceGreggs]

13. So they could have put an abrupt end ...

... to all of the speculation about there being a sex-scandal aspect to all of this, but chose NOT TO DO SO until AFTER the rumours were flying?

Ain't buying it.

[KurtNYC]

18. Strategically why not let people speculate wrongly about that part?

They can put out the info at any time and it just makes the speculators look mean-spirited.

Plus it leaves less focus on the meaningful parts. Remember Dan Rather - good info, false evidence and the whole thing gets sunk.

[txindy]

19. But we're still waiting for the "good info" part.

The word of Armstrong and Pamela Willeford does not qualify. The first has changed her story from "eyewitness" to "standing near the security detail" and the second would have the most reason to lie if the speculation was true.

[KurtNYC]

24. I think there are parts of this story they can lie about & some they cant

The names of people who were on the ranch at the time would fall in the realm of what they can't lie successfully about. It is too easy to be caught in a lie like that if 1) she was seen elsewhere at the time 2) she came to Whittington's hospital bed from somewhere other than the ranch etc.

[txindy]

27. So why was it up to Darth to notify Harry's children with the wife there?

No, the story does not wash. And they certainly could lie about who was there after the fact if they had the cooperation - or silence - of those people. Mrs. Whittington's husband is in a hospital in poor condition. Do we really believe she's in a position to tell Darth to go 'Darth' himself?! Not likely.

[NanceGreggs]

22. Why not let people speculate wrongly?

Because this is (allegedly) the Christian family values crowd. I can't imagine them deliberately setting themselves up to be seen in a way contrary to that.

And I don't think it leaves less focus on the meaningful parts; it increases it. They're smart enough to know that a sex-scandal aspect to ANY story pumps up the volume a thousand percent.

This is a story they've been trying to tone down since it broke - why add 'unecessary' fuel to the very fire you're hoping to put out?

[KurtNYC]

30. If true, a sex scandal pumps up a story; if untrue

it could eclipse the whole thing.

Releasing these peoples' names isn't adding fuel to the fire. It is trying to put it out.

[NanceGreggs]

34. That's my point!

"Releasing these peoples' names isn't adding fuel to the fire. It is trying to put it out."

Who tries to put out a fire four days later?

As for an UNTRUE sex scandal eclipsing things, in the public's eye, there's no such thing as an UNTRUE sex scandal once that thought is out there. Hate to use the same metaphor again, but a lot of people think that where there's smoke, there's fire - and attempts to put out that fire after-the-fact are perceived as a cover up for the real deal.

With plummeting poll numbers and surveys showing increasing support for Democrats over Republicans, why even ALLOW that thought to take hold -Especially when your traditional 'base' is comprised of Fundies and the religious right?

I don't think the WH spinmeisters are the geniuses they've been made out to be, but when your current dwindling support is dependent on keeping your image up with religious wingnuts, you wouldn't let a rumour like that fester, even for a second, and think, "Heh, heh, let them all wonder ..."

Not. Buying.

[havocmom]

20. So the Mrs stood still for the 3 hour delay between the shooting

and Whittington getting to the hospital? And did she go to the hospital too, or did she stick around the ranch and have supper with Cheney and the others?

And, gee, nobody remembered this until FOUR DAYS LATER, and only after a whole lotta speculation about the married gentlemen being there with the unmarried ladies?

Ah, waiter, I'll have some pepper with that load o heart healthy, non alcoholic, artificial imitation truth substitute!

Stop the world, the spin is making me ill.

[txindy]

23. What's even odder about this is Darth's statement.

He talked about notifying Harry's children. But..... Now we're told Harry's wife was THERE. Wouldn't she have done that? Wouldn't she have been the one to know how best to contact them? Why would Darth even be involved in notifying any family of his victim when THE WIFE WAS RIGHT THERE? Allegedly.

Yes, they really do believe we're just that stupid.

[Missy M]

25. Not once did I read his wife was there, until now.....

in the beginning everyone was wondering if he was married. It was never mentioned that his wife accompanied him to the hospital because she was there. None of the other guests were mentioned and Ms. Armstrong has not been very credible as a source. At first she said the old chap was fine, just a little peppering, thats all. What a crock!!!

[unc70]

32. Some of this was known before, but they were playing with us ...

THis is classic behavior when they are trying to bury a story -- don't identify the other hunter, then just that it was a woman, then who she was, etc. Add in the normal dynamics of the Internet and you get a lot of noise and speculation, possibly hiding something else.

I speculated earlier

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=442328&mesg_id=444020

that they often acted like teenagers who first tried to cover it up entirely, then tried a very limited version. If the blizzard had not happened and it Whittington had not had the heart event, then it probably would have died down fairly soon after lots of late-night jokes.

[marions ghost]

21. you can drop this angle if u like...

but if the "hunting party" wanted to stop rumors, what better vehicle than the NYT? OK nothing more to see here...everybody's 'moving on.' No, OP, I've seen too many things proven by the stubborn and cynical to fall for that. The Truth is out there...and these days it's not being covered by the NYT.

[KurtNYC]

33. If I had my post to write over I would probably change that line

It is not my style to tell other people what to do or that there too many threads on a certain subject, etc.

I remain cynical about many of the details of this story but not about this being a larger group versus being some kind of romantic quail slaughtering weekend for 4.

[marions ghost]

41. fair enough

I like the more neutral way you say it here. You're certainly entitled to your opinion, since really we know next to nothing. But you have to admit they have created the mystery in referring only to this Pamela individual as "the third hunter." And we really don't know who was there because Mrs. Armstrong is not a reliable source. When people work so hard to hide something, there's usually a reason. Newspapers get things wrong, people lie. I take nothing as the truth unless it's corroborated several times. And these days, that would mean by sources other than the NYT.:)

[MrTriumph]

29. Oh, 6 days later we get this new "info". Credible?

x

[Nikki Stone1]

36. Thanks for this. Jumping to conclusions about "affairs" was silly

There is too much that is real to get sidetracked with nonsense.

[txindy]

47. And realizing connections that had been previously missed is great

As in, it appears Mrs. Whittington is the sister of James Baker III. Darth shot Jim Baker's brother-in-law. Now THERE'S a good reason for the Whittington family to go along with the latest Darth-concocted tale, isn't it?

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x448048

Oh, and Pamela Willeford has gone missing. So to speak.

http://firedoglake.blogspot.com/2006_02_12_firedoglake_archive.html#114012964736549980

[Stephanie]

39. Proves they tried to cover it up.

The very first reports mentioned four names - Armstrong, Cheney, Whittington, and Willeford. Some later reports changed Willeford to an unidentified "hunter." Then Armstrong said, oh, her sister was there too. So five people were at the scene, as it was rcounted by Armstrong. Then we get the sheriff's report and a whole group is named as being on the hunt, like eight people, and a few of them are named as being right at the scene when it happened. Now we learn that the spouses were back at the house. It just gets curiouser.

Was this a paid vacation, like a guest ranch? Or was this a private house party hosted by the Armstrongs for their friends?

[BringEmOn]

40. Cecil B. DeMille's "Dickie Breaks the Ten Commandments"

Starring Dick Cheney with a cast of thousands

[FreedomAngel82]

45. Why didn't they mention this in the beginning???

:shrug: And where's Lynn Cheney? She's too quiet. Shouldn't she be coming out somewhere and calling someone a "bad man"?

[proud2BlibKansan]

49. Whittington's wife is also

James Baker's sister.

The plot thickens.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

50. They want to limit who might get asked questions about this. Good, let

the names get out. These people can all hide behind a veil of secrecy the rest of their lives. Let 'em at least have to work at it, and sweat having to perjure themselves if they ever wind up in front of a jury.

[txindy]

51. Have you seen the latest?

That Whittington's wife is the sister of James Baker III? Think she'll play along with whatever tale they tell?

[threadkillaz]

52. Ben Love died January 13, 2006

One month ago.

Ben Love, Houston Banker and Philanthropist, Dies
http://www.mccombs.utexas.edu/news/pressreleases/love05.asp

Ben Love's Book - Forward by James Baker
http://www.tamu.edu/upress/BOOKS/2005/love.htm


Love is survived by his wife Margaret; his son Jeff Love, Jeff’s wife Kathy, and their two children, Benton III and Elizabeth; and by his daughter Jan Love Simmons and husband Tom, and their two children, Jennie and Charles.


Her "beau" might be Benton III, Ben Love's grandson (son of Jeff). Ben Love (grandfather) was 81 and married.



This apparition of Bush fundraiser Jeff Love floating over the POTUS and Harriet Miers at Prairie Chapel Ranch originally ran October 5.

However, in this link, Ben Love attends this WH dinner with Katharine Armstrong in Nov 2005, but who knows if it is Ben Love or Bennett Love?
http://www.c-span.org/executive/statedinner.asp

Who knows.

[onenote]

55. armstrong is 36

Benton Love III apparently is 24. Of course, it could just as easily be a different Ben Love. A google search indicates that there is a West Texas rancher/realtor named Ben Love...could be him (and he might/might not be the same guy as Ben Love III and his age could be anyone's guess).

Onenote

[threadkillaz]

58. Yes, I saw the Brahma Bull guy.

San Miguel Cattle Company, Kay and Ben Love, Marathon, Texas

http://www.brahman.org/links.html

Scroll to Texas. This Ben Love looks married.

Weird.

[daleo]

57. Well, the grandfather was 81

So, the grandson is not likely to be much older than 40, and more likely around 30.

"Of course, I don’t really remember because I was about ten during that Phillips campaign, but I remember meeting Nolan Ryan at a fundraiser at our house, so there must have been a lot of cash thrown around somewhere."

Above was by Ben III, in the villagevoice blog. Which leads to this Wiki entry: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Karl_Rove#1988_Texas_Supreme_Court_races

"1988 Texas Supreme Court races
In 1988, Rove helped Tom Phillips become the first Republican elected as Chief Justice of the Texas Supreme Court. Phillips had been appointed to the position in November 1987 by Governor Clements; he would be re-elected in November 1990, November 1996 and November 2002.

Phillips' election in 1988 was part of an aggressive grassroots campaign called "Clean Slate '88", a bi-partisan (and conservative) effort that was successful in getting five of its six candidates elected. (Ordinarily there were three justices on the ballot each year, on a nine-justice court, but, because of resignations, there were six races for the Supreme Court on the ballot in November 1988.)"

Which would mean Ben III was born in 1978 or so, and thus only about 26. How old is our lovely hostess? I thought she was in her fifties? And now we find out she is the sister of James Baker III, the Bush family fixer (remember Florida in 2000)? Too much.

On edit - got that wrong. The victim's wife is the sister of James Baker III, not Katherine Armstrong.

Note: Wiki article says she (Katherine Armstrong) was born in 1969.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Armstrong

[bigtree]

53. what's the point in limiting our questions. when everything we know comes

second or third hand from reluctant sources who are friends and lobbyists?

Whose account are you relating?

[daleo]

54. I won't feel like I have to believe any particular facts until I see sworn

testimony. Until that time they can invent stories and carefully parse the truth. This cries out for an inquest.

[alarcojon]

56. I agree that the affair angle is unproductive

Cheney's documented drinking before and after, on the other hand....