May I say something, as an outsider?

[Canadian Socialist]

I am really, really starting to worry about the USA. No... seriously. I know that Canada is not perfect - far from it. But you guys... this is nuts. Or maybe I'm just reading way to much into what is happening. Please, I beg you, tell me it isn't as bad as I'm reading here.

[LynnTheDem]

1. It's worse.

Yeah seriously.

[davekriss]

63. Not fair!!

I read Canadian Socialist's post, the thought comes to mind emphatically, "it's worse!", I look down about to post same, and what do I see? Reply #1, from LynnTheDem, with "It's worse" in the subject line. Gotta' be quick here in DU land!

Yeah seriously!

[BlueEyedSon]

74. Of course it's worse. Between the secrecy of the administration and the

complicity of the cWHOREporate media, we don't even know all the bad stuff going on!

[LynnTheDem]

99. Well gee I waited & waited for you!

Finally figured you were busy and I'd better go ahead & post it.

:D

[davekriss]

104. LOL

For Canadian Socialist (and the other Canadians here observing our scene):

...we start out sugared up on kool-aid and manifest destiny
and we memorize all the president's names
like little trained monkeys
and then we're spit into the world
so many spinny-eyed t.v. junkies
incapable of unravelling the military industrial mystery
preemptively pacified with history book history
and i've been around the world now
and i can see this about america
the mind control is steep here, man
the myopia is deep here

and behold
those that try to expose the reality
who really try to realize democracy
are shot with rubber bullets and gassed off the streets
while the global power brokers are kept clean and discrete
behind a wall
behind a moat
and that is all
that's all she wrote

<snip>

and big government should not stand between a man and his money
i mean "what's good for business is good for the country"

our children still take that lie like communion
the same old line
the confederacy used on the union

conjugate liberty
into libertarian
and medicate it
associate it
with deregulation
privitization
we won't even know we're slaves
on a corporate plantation
somebody say halleluja!
somebody say damnation!
cuz the profit system follows the path of least resistance
and the path of least resistance is what makes the river crooked
makes it serpentine
capitalism is the devil's wet dream
so just give me my judy garland drugs
and let me get back to work
cuz the empire state building
is the tallest building in new york
and i always got the feeling
you just liked to hear it fall

-- Ms. Ani DiFranco, Serpentine

...cuz take away our playstations
and we are a third world nation
under the thumb of some blue blood royal son
who stole the oval office and that phony election
i mean
it don't take a weatherman
to look around and see the weather

-- Ms. Ani DiFranco, Self Evident

(emphasis added)

[Toucano]

88. Exactly. n/t

[rzemanfl]

2. Sure, I'll tell you, but that's a lie. When you need a passport to

get into this country next year, don't bother, it isn't worth the visit anymore.

[justice1]

10. Bush hates us for our freedoms

[patrice]

22. He Fears us for our Freedoms. I don't think he hates us, because . . .

You have to care about something/someone enough to hate them. "We" are mostly an imposition on his time here on Earth. I think he, therefore, resents us, and that may affect his decision making, but I don't think he connects to us well enough to hate us.

[tiptoe]

26. Maybe the son suspects the father "did something bad"? n/t

;)

[patrice]

103. Oh, I'll bet that's Right!!

[freefall]

79. I want a t-shirt that says that. n/t

[Toots]

82. If terrorists hate us for our freedom, just take away our freedom, simple

fix..terrorist no longer hate us...war over...

[hunter]

89. The scary thing is U.S. citizens will need passports to leave.

No spur-of-moment daytrips to Niagra Falls or Tijuana anymore.

"Show Us Your Papers, Patriot!"

Just like the old Soviet Union...

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

3. Actually, It Only Sounds As Bas As It Does Because Of The Little Bit That

has been leaked about it.

Fact is though, friend, that if we actually had ALL the facts surrounding this secret program we would all realize that it is FAR WORSE than that.

[spuddonna]

4. Sorry, it's as bad as you're reading here...

Did you read the thread on how Canada is our biggest supplier of oil? That was an interesting thread...

[The Velveteen Ocelot]

5. Unfortunately, it really is that bad.

Be thankful you live in a country that hasn't gone collectively mad. The Bush Regime has taken a great country and driven it into the ditch, and about 60 million idiots either haven't noticed or don't care.

[ClayZ]

72. Gone colletively mad...... Stay HUMAN!

Stay Human!

http://www.spearheadvibrations.com/music.html

[leeroysphitz]

128. "Stay Human!"... Gonna be tough in the next few years...

I'm just sayin'

[Straight Shooter]

6. Sorry, friend. It's sooo much worse. And you aren't an "outsider."

You're a neighbor. :pals:

[Lisa]

35. one could almost say we're "handcuffed together" ...

To paraphrase JFK, we're kind of stuck with each other, just due to history and geography -- so it's just as well that we've managed to get along in the modern era (regardless of George W.).

We're each other's biggest trading partners. The US needs our resources, while we are so economically dependent on the US market that we are guaranteed to be affected if there is social/economic disarray. A mouse in bed with an elephant, as they say. Plus the fact that most of us are geographically-close to the US (I can see it from my office window right now, actually) -- one American DUer joked that to invade Canada, "everybody cross the border into Canada and keep walking for an hour, then turn around ... we'll have them surrounded".

Especially in the corporate sector, there is a lot of pressure for us to harmonize our taxation and trade laws (and other things such as immigration, civil liberties, etc.) with the US, on the grounds that it would be more convenient ... there are even some arguing for a common currency.

The US is the only nation which has invaded us multiple times. Paradoxically, it's also the country which we've got the most cultural contact with (especially now that ties with England have waned). Most Canadians have family and friends in the US (it's very rare to meet a Canadian who hasn't visited the States at least once). My mom went to school in Oregon, and I have cousins presently working in California.

My analogy is that for Canadians, the past 5 years have been like watching your best friend from high school getting married to a lout who slaps her around, steals her money, and forbids her to even talk to her old pals (NO international treaties, and any ambassador who says something critical ends up getting reprimanded by the White House).

p.s. the vast majority of people up here, from 8-year-olds to my 80-something father (who describes himself as a "doddering dad") have noticed the changes in the US of late, and are perturbed by them. They draw a clear distinction between the American people and the present administration -- and if anything, our experience in the past half-century has made us aware that there are a substantial number of Americans who are actively opposed to things which their government is doing. (Our local peace group always begins its rallies with the announcement that they are "praying in solidarity with our American brothers and sisters, who are speaking out in their own country".)

[marions ghost]

59. I'm sure it must not be fun

watching this decline from Canada. Thank you for praying for us as you would for people in a repressed dictatorship. That is what it feels like. It is so hard to find truth anywhere. We are heading for extremely hard times if something doesn't change soon. Glad to hear there are those outside this country who are getting the picture.

[MrPrax]

86. Handcuffed?

You mean like The Defiant Ones?

If that's the case, then Canada is Sidney Portier!!

[Dave Reynolds]

7. Depends on who you ask, really.

People who pay attention here know it is bad, and getting worse. The people who take in only propaganda think everything is great.

[wtmusic]

8. You're right--it's completely nuts

very few Americans have half a clue what their government is up to.

Easing into Fascism.

[Olney Blue]

9. We are worried too.

[PVK]

11. It's not as bad as you think.

It's FAR WORSE. The biggest problem is NO ONE is doing anything.

[jamesinca]

12. Belgium had nothing to worry about in 1939

the Germans still liked them, go about your business and we will talk in '41.

[Generator]

100. This is why I can never stay away from DU

the gallows humour. LNWTHTGOOTCC (Laughing nervously while thinking how to get out of this crazy country)

[SammyWinstonJack]

13. Aren't you glad you don't live here? I wish I didn't. I wish I could

steal away to Canada or anywhere else. That's how bad I think it is.

[Gato Moteado]

21. actually you can.

i mean, if you're not digging it anymore, you can move to a different country. i'm not sure how difficult it is to get residency in canada these days but there are other options.

i see you're in TX. i lived there for 11 years so i know where you're coming from. it's way too red for my comfort zone (i'm from chicago originally). austin is one of the more sane places in TX, but in recent years i've noticed a huge increase in SUVs with bush bumper stickers even there.

so now i'm in a country where they outlawed repukes. i think they get fed to the crocs.

[SammyWinstonJack]

31. LOL!

"so now i'm in a country where they outlawed repukes. i think they got fed to the crocs." :thumbsup: Sounds like my kinda country! :woohoo:

[SammyWinstonJack]

33. Ah so I see you live in Costa Rica! Lucky you! I was thinking of there

or Belize. Ideal.

[Gato Moteado]

40. we're free of freeper filth down here

if you come down to central america, promise me you'll buy a big chunk of rain forest and protect it.

[Swamp Rat]

92. ¡Pura vida!

Tuanis ;)

[Gato Moteado]

122. spoken like a native

nt

[Swamp Rat]

124. Porque yo viví allá, en San Ramón y Guanacaste

Soy un poco Tico también... ;)

[Gato Moteado]

138. porque no vives en costa rica todavia?

nt

[Swamp Rat]

140. Porque yo tuve estudios en la Univ. de CR 13 años atrás

y estoy divorciado, hace 6 años (yo esaba casado con una Tica)... agora minha namorada é do Brasil. :D

Volví para hacer estudios para el doctorado, y ahora quiero ayudar mi cudád Nueva Orleans. Después, voy volver ao Brasil pra viver. Estoy echando de menos mucho a Costa Rica (ceviche de cambute, gallopinto, bolitas pejiballe... la luna sobre Guanacaste... :cry: ), pero prefiro o Brasil. Tengo família y muchos amigos en los dos países. :)

[zeemike]

112. I would buy it all if I could afford to

I hear that Costa Rica is a civilized country with a highly educated people
And they have the best coffee in the world.

[Gato Moteado]

123. we;ve got boneheads too.....

...but overall, it's a peace loving country. we've got a way to go on educating people about conservation and almost nobody knows how to drive safely. other than that, it's wonderful.

[zeemike]

129. We all have our share of boneheads

But I have met people from your country and I was impressed with there level of education. They could speak on practically any subject with a great degree of knowledge.

[Gato Moteado]

14. look out, i hear cheney is coming up your way to do some hunting.

he wants to whack some fenced in mooses, elk, caged bears, and some geese that have had their feathers clipped so they can't fly. he's a real sportsman you know. if you see him stalking game in his SUV, better duck and cover.

[SammyWinstonJack]

37. Yeah a real *manly* man that cheney.

:eyes:

[KT2000]

15. You are right

I know I have made comments suggesting things are better in Canada. Then Canadians say that there are problems there too. But it really is bad here - I think the people on DU are aware of our Constitution and know that it is under attack. Most people in america though are not aware of that - yet, although the spying is waking some up.
What replaces our Constitution? fascism.

PS The bronze winner (Canadian) in men's figure skating was awesome last night!

[MadisonProgressive]

83. I'm afraid that most people in this country think

the Constitution is something that guarantees them their guns - that's all they know about it.

[HockeyMom]

16. To use John Edwards Phrase

I want "MY America" back. I do not recognize this America.

[urbanasaurus]

23. Edwards rocks.

I want MY America back!

[upi402]

17. It really IS bad. We're worried too.

You're not outside. We're all one in this ever-smaller world.
Please help tell the world we have 100% TV News propganda.

[CrazyOrangeCat]

20. Amen. 100% propaganda.

I think we need the "Voice of Canada" beamed in from just across the border.

Some sanity and truth from the north country.

[upi402]

25. Al Gore's channel eliminated the CBC, BBC, and ITV news

I have no tv news since that pap came on.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

48. Yeah, it simply wasn't worth it

to lose CBC for Current TV.

:-(

[Lisa]

51. can you still pick up Radio Canada International?

I know they broadcast some news and commentary shows into the US on shortwave, if you aren't in a border area that catches CBC TV.

http://www.rcinet.ca/rci/en/


p.s. I see that Gloria and I came up with this at almost the same time!

[mmonk]

58. Amen

It really ticked me off.

[Gloria]

50. Get a cheap shortwave and listen to Radio Canada Intl which

carries a lot of CBC programming. Listen to "The Current" in the AM for intelligent reporting. (Walgreen's has some cheap radios, or Radio Shack.)
The other day I heard the ex-head of Hong Kong, Chris Patton, who said the biggest threat is PAKISTAN--a country "on the edge" with nukes.....

Bet you won't here that in the States, unless you listen to Clark discuss the entire package of regional issues....

Get a Grundig YB400 now on sale for $99.00 on the internet (a HUGE BARGAIN, now replaced by the G4000, but essentially the same radio) and listen to the BBC and Radio China, Radio Sweden, Radio Taiwan, Radio Netherlands, Deutsche-Welle, Radio Havana, and get a bigger picture of what's going on in the world. I don't listen to US radio anymore, haven't for about 4 years.....

[LynnTheDem]

61. #1 threat is Pakistan, Patton is correct.

Pakistan is one successful assassination attempt away...

[upi402]

65. then it's a serious Islamist nuclear block

thanks W, making America safer than the crybabt librul puke-hearts...:sarcasm:

For radio, we have Air America.
However, for most Americans -if it aint on the TV news... it never happened.

Just as Romans were distracted with the gladiator games, we are a very distracted people.
Easy to fool.

[serryjw]

142. You bet!

They have tried 3X times and they will succeed. THEY have nukes financed by our friends in Saudi Arabia. After they assassinate Musharaff: I give the Mushahahadeen 1 minute to cross the border from Afghanistan

[BiggJawn]

77. Gosh, we created a Monster!

I take it you've "graduated" from that $12 Bell and Howell you first had? :D

[Gloria]

126. BiggJawn, Yes, I got the Grundig right after that little

Bell & Howell!
Then, I got another Grundig with a free offer of one of the little G1000s--
That's in the bathroom, the first Grundig is next to my bed, and the other one is in my office. I use the DX switch to pull in Air America from El Paso during the day....

My longwire is doing fine. I'd like to try one of those EWE antennas. I have the plans, just need the time.

[BiggJawn]

134. Wonderful!

I have a YachtBoy 400, also, which is my travel radio and I pull in AAR from Cincinatti (200 miles away) with it, too.

[freefall]

81. I DID hear it in the US and I've remembered where. It was on Fresh Air

w/Terry Gross. Joseph Cirincione of the Carnegie Endowment for International Peace was the guest and he pointed out that Pakistan was really the biggest worry as far as a nuclear threat went because of the fact that we don't know what will happen to the weapons if the government loses control and the government is holding on by a thread or two in a volatile environment.

It is way worse than you think.

Peace,

freefall

[The Straight Story]

18. Hell I saw this coming back in the clinton years

Not slamming clinton - but the people of the country in general (I started paying more attention back then).
freedoms whittled away day by day, more and more legislation at all levels.

From no smoking in bars to registering your yard sale to seat belts and so on and so on people just can't get enough of laws to tell us how to live or go to jail.

We will have more groups demonized and preachers, err I mean well paid scientists from special interest groups, will back up any claim made to help pass more laws and instill fear - fear so that we believe that we have to have more laws to protect us.

Sad thing is, even some folks here on DU will applaud many of those laws 'protect' us.

[SmokingJacket]

24. My only thought back then was, "well, THIS isn't sustainable!"

I had no idea what were in for. I still can't believe it.

Pinch, pinch... nope, not waking up.

[Gato Moteado]

29. well, you can't compare smoking bans with unlawful wiretapping

second hand smoke is toxic to non-smokers, so smoking bans in places that fill up with people is probably a good thing. it's a health issue. the federal clean air act protects me in my workplace...if i worked in a bar or restaurant i would want those same protections and as a patron of those places i should also be protected from the poison that other people want to inflict upon themselves.

registering a yard sale is certainly a goofy thing. i've had yard sales and never had to do this and i'd be pissed if someone told me i had to do it.

seat belts and motorcycle helmet laws and the like...that's a tough one i guess. they seem like common sense to me. people shouldn't have to be told to do them, it should just be natural. i imagine the insurance companies have something to do with these laws. and i don't mind them, i just wish the insurance companies were more regulated so they weren't stealing all our money.

anyways, i wouldn't compare any of these to the fascist rule we se coming down in the form of unlawful wiretapping of US citizens without warrants, corporate rule where industry execs get to write environmental and employment policy, etc.

[The Straight Story]

46. Not so much comparing them as to the complacency and attitudes

people have when they get restricted.

Now wire tapping is 'good for us' because it too can save lives. Patriot act - well it could save lives. And it goes on and on. Fear of death is a heavy chain when weilded by those in power...

[Spiffarino]

132. Fear is the weapon of choice for tyrants

Fear is what is slowly driving a wedge between our liberties and ourselves. To those who fear pain and death more than loss of liberty, liberty is nothing more than a word.

[buzzard]

69. You are kidding right, registering yard sales.??

[Buns_of_Fire]

73. Alas, no. Google "yard sale permits". (nt)

[eppur_se_muova]

115. These are local (city)ordinances. Still....

http://www.ci.rialto.ca.us/finance_517.php

Yard Sale Permit and Regulations

Permit Required:

A garage, patio, yard, or other similar sale may not be conducted without the seller first having a permit.
The permit costs are as follows:

$5.00 - If permit is obtained in advance.
$20.00 - A fine and notice of violation will be issued if a permit is not presented to the licensing
inspector.

A sale may be conducted only once in any six month period, and shall be limited to not more than three
consecutive days.

All personal property to be sold at the sale shall by owned, utilized, and maintained by such persons or
members of his or her family on or in connection with the premises which they occupy and shall not have
been acquired or consigned to him or her for the purposes of resale.

Directional Signs Prohibited

The posting of garage sale directional signs on public property, including, but not limited to, parkways,
greenbelts, bus benches, sidewalks, curbs, vehicle safety poles, signs, and stanchions, or upon any parked
vehicle on a public street, alley, or parking lot, or upon utility poles is unlawful. Directional signs not larger
than 864 square inches may be placed on private property provided that consent has been obtained by the
owner or occupant thereof. There shall be no more than four such directional signs erected by permittee.

Violation Penalty:

Violation of any of these regulations as defined in Rialto Municipal Code Chapter 5.69, shall by punishable as
an infraction.

In Case of Rain:

In the case of rain or high winds, your permit may be extended for the number of days that the weather
conditions prevented you from having the sale. You must bring your permit back to the Licensing division no
later that Tuesday of the following week, so that the new date(s) can be noted on your copy and the City's copy
of the permit.

For More Information:

Call [phone].

[ingac70]

19. It's sooo much worse!

:hi:

[SmokingJacket]

27. It's freaky, to be honest.

I don't know what the hell is going to happen to us.

[FatDave]

121. Freakier still.

It only took 5 years.

[serryjw]

143. Tells you how fragile democracy is

only 5 years Rush, O'Reily, Hannity, MSM and half a country that has been so dumped down they don't see or care what is happening.

[Nitrogenica]

28. Unfortunately things are going to have to get worse before they

get better. The Republican smear machine is well entrenched. This study by Media Matters only covered the balance of Sunday Morning talk shows. This is only the tip of the iceberg.

http://mediamatters.org/items/200602140002

Considering what we are up against, it is going to take more disasters and incompetence before the people truly wake up and realize what they truly voted for, and that's assuming the media will become more balanced.

[OnyxCollie]

39. You are very optimistic.

I was thinking yesterday, that things are never going to get better. When Chimpy's gone in three years (hopefully sooner), how do we know the next person won't say, "Hey, this absolute power thing is pretty nice." What makes us so sure things are going to improve?

[marions ghost]

57. you are optimistic

if you think Chimpy won't be replaced by more neo-cons. They steal elections.

[roguevalley]

30. the november elections will tell, my friend.

[SammyWinstonJack]

41. The stolen election, no reason too believe that 2006 will be any different

from 2000 2002 or 2004. These crooks can't afford to be put out of power. They risk too much.

[lucca]

90. Sad, but true.

I can't imagine these crooks giving up power which would surely expose the depth of their corruption.

Will we ever see *bush and his cronies be held accountable for all their crimes?

Unless we have true and honest elections; and our Democratic leaders wake up and fight for us, for America, the depth of depression and suffocation of our freedoms, may be lost for a long, long time.

[SnoopDog]

32. Every aspect of the USA is being destroyed...

And 300 million people (minus a few) are watching tv and have no clue.

[Blue Diadem]

34. I suspect it's much worse than any of us know..

There is too much secrecy in this government. It's awful as it is now but I can't even begin to imagine what they are doing behind the scenes.

[NJCher]

36. life in these United States

The quality of life here sucks, especially if you're an aware person. The 60 million idiots the poster above refers to make it that way because they remain willfully ignorant and are too lazy to get involved and solve the problem.

Everywhere you go on the roads are huge, hulking SUVs. You can't walk into a grocery store or a restaurant without ear protection because there is no civility left at all--people let their kids run, screaming, and if in a store, playing with the merchandise. One lives in fear of illness and because so many do not have health care, it's just one illness away from bankruptcy.

The media broadcasts fluff and propaganda so there's nothing really nothing of interest to watch. If you don't mind purchasing activist videos, though, there are plenty of them, all reminding us that it really is worse than we thought.

Daily we get to read about how cheney, bush, and halliburton have not just plundered our national treasury and natural resources, but are putting us into debt for decades to come. The bigger horror are the pictures that come in from places like Australia, reminding us that atrocities are being committed in our name and with our tax dollars. You cannot imagine the pain and guilt that goes with this. It never stops and it makes daily life a horror.

This place sucks.




Cher

[CrazyOrangeCat]

42. Your second paragraph . . .

. . . is the best rant I've read all day.

And that's all I've done today!

;)

[FloridaPat]

38. You're just worried that when the US collapses the first country

everyone will go to is Canada. You're afraid of all those ice-backs coming into your country! Admit it.
(Ice backs because when we cross the Canadian border, it's usually ice cold up there).

You're not the only one worried about the USA. Yes, it is nuts. Beyond comprehension.

[Lisa]

43. we're worried that a collapsing USA would fall over and squash us!

Actually, Canada got its start from the wave of Loyalist immigrants who decided to leave the US after the Revolutionary War -- so there's a long tradition of seeing Americans as productive new citizens. Our birth rate has dwindled over the past few decades, and if anything we are in need of more immigrants to keep our population and workforce numbers stable. So military-aged war resisters would be particularly welcome!

Planned event in BC later this year to celebrate the Vietnam-era immigrants from the US:

http://www.ourwayhomereunion.com/


"We invite you to participate in the Our Way Home National Reunion Weekend. This event will mark the courageous legacy and honour the contribution made to Canadian life by the US war resisters who came to Canada during the Vietnam War. The Our Way Home Reunion will also honour the courage of those resisting current US militarism by seeking safe haven in Canada now, during the US war in Iraq. The Our Way Home Reunion will honour the thousands of Canadians who helped them resettle in this country, both then and now."

[FloridaPat]

55. How about some baby boomers? We'd only be there 6 months

of the year to get health care. But we are self-sufficient as long as social security is alive and we like to buy things! And the way the US is going, 70 just might be military age real soon!

[democrank]

44. Everything is A-OK here in Bushworld.

Really. I`m serious. We have bus loads of Moral People monitoring strangers` personal family decisions about issues like removing feeding tubes or ending a pregnancy where a 14 year old was raped by her uncle. We have lots of big Wal-Marts...kind of like Chinese Plastic Museums, where we`re guaranteed LOW, LOW prices. We have a clever Atttorney General, a regular Constitutional Scholar who works full time trying to figure out secret ways the president can go around national and international laws. Then there are the clever Spy Guys who know when peace activists are having meetings in a neighborhood cellar.

It`s kind of interesting here. Our president talks to God so he can get the okay for various bombings and invasions. That`s how we know we`re on the right track in Iraq. We`re spreading freedom over there. Bush says we have a big coalition...but not France, so we had to rename our French Fries and smash French wine bottles on the sidewalks. It was the right thing to do. Patriotism at it`s best.

Come on down for a visit. Bring duct tape and official Homeland Security plastic sheeting, some kind of written proof you don`t have terrorist ties and make sure you don`t have any anti-Bush bumper stickers, which will prevent you from getting into certain places. Oh, and wear a bright orange hunting vest....just in case.

[Libby2]

45. You're not the only one!

We are falling apart at the seams.

[Catherine Vincent]

47. I'm worried too.

Can I come and live with you?

[UTUSN]

49. And you're talking about WHAT, exactly? n/t

[unkachuck]

52. it's one big long suck....

....down here....do us 'trapped' liberal/progressives a favor, talk to your friends and neighbors and try to get a bill through Parliament to open up your country for a period of two years to any US citizen who wants to immigrate to Canada....

....give an anti-freeper civics test, check for criminals even set a minimum entry fee....we'll bring ourselves, skills, money, posessions and economic power and join you up there in the Great White North....

....I bet millions would move north and what was left down here could be economically isolated in a few years....

[QC]

53. It's bad, but this place is Drama Queen Underground sometimes,

so at times the weeping, wailing, gnashing of teeth, sackcloth, ashes, etc. gets a bit out of hand.

Perspective helps. Bush is awful, but there have been far worse times in this country, and we have recovered. A. Mitchell Palmer, Woodrow Wilson's Attorney General, made John Ashcroft look like Bernie Sanders. Lincoln suspended habeas corpus. The Great Depression was much worse than the present economic circumstances, and the rich tried to mount a coup then and failed. And so on. People generally return to common sense, and we are now seeing it with Bush: he's about as popular as genital herpes now, and all of Rove's standard tricks are failing to take his approval rating much above 40%. Here in the heavily Republican area where I live, people are criticizing him very openly, something one almost never heard only a year ago. Republicans I know can't stand him now and fear that their party is going to lose big because of him.

There's plenty of reason for some optimism.

[ruggerson]

62. thank you for that rare dose of sanity

i couldn't agree with you more

[QC]

64. Thanks! n/t

[Clara T]

67. "plenty of reason"

I'm searchin' and am good at lookin'.

But what I see ain't purty.

[QC]

68. Like I said, things are bad,

but they're not hopeless.

It's a bit too soon for the funeral.

[RazzleDazzle]

94. No, no, none of those examples were far worse at all

Nothing but NOTHING compares to this aside from 1930s Germany (and perhaps other transitions to fascism such as Mussolini's Italy, etc.)

We have the distinct pleasure of having become a fascist police state while maintaining a veneer that still resembles a democracy. For example (and just one), why alarm people unnecessarily by doing something so drastic and crass as eliminating elections if you can leave them in place while stealing whatever eletions you choose to so the people THINK they've still got a vote and a voice and its still a democracy?

For another, why generate hostility and opposition by vetoing bill after bill after bill if you can just issue a written statement for each saying "I'll sign this, but I'll do what I damn please on the matter because I'm above the law," thus preserving the ILLUSION of three co-equal branches of government as well as checks and balances?

Etc.

[QC]

102. Elections have been stolen before.

Presidents have disregarded the law before.

Does that mean that everything is hunky dory now? Of course not.

Like I said, having a bit of historical perspective can be a lifesaver. Have you ever read Howard Zinn's People's History of the United States? It will quickly disabuse any reader of the sense that the past was a golden age.

[serryjw]

141. QC what we have never seen is this

well oiled, well funded RW take over. Because of their money they now control everything. One of the best articles on the subject

quote.......

Quick observation and question: Conservatives have spent the better part of the last 30 years building a potent message machine — a network of think tanks, policy centers and media outlets. How much does the political far right spend a year to promote its agenda?

If you answered more than $300 million a year, help yourself to a kewpie doll or a seegar. If you answered that it spent a $1 billion on think tanks alone during the 1990s, you get your choice of one of those six-foot stuffed teddy bears.

The Democrats -- the middle and left of the political spectrum -- spend only a fraction of the yearly total. There are estimates that it may be as much as one third, perhaps less. And on think tanks during the 1990s? Well . . .

snip........
Kerry raised a Democratic-record $249 million. Sounds like the Democrats are doing pretty, well doesn't it? <1>

Well, it's all well and good to raise that money to spend on advertising and yard signs and travel and rallies and campaign staff and e-mail and snail mail and website maintenance and all the trappings that go with politicking for election every two years or four years. But the conservatives are spending big money every day, all year round -- and have been for years -- to win the hearts and minds of the electorate every day, all year round -- and have been for years -- not just every two years or four years.

snip......

"the Four Sisters" -- Richard Mellon Scaife's various foundations, the Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation, the Olin Foundation and the Smith Richardson Foundation--along with Coors's foundations, foundations associated with the Koch oil family, and a group of large corporations. (In this article, I will refer to this group of funders as the "Four Sisters Funding Group" or FSFG.)


end quote.....

Please read the long article. IF we are going to fight them it will have to be grassroots because we will never their money
http://www.eurolegal.org/greendogdem/gdd1204/20041213gdd.htm

[Mme. Defarge]

101. Bless you for this post!

I really need a little morale boost this morning.

[Marie26]

117. Thanks for that post

There's always reason for hope.

[hopeisaplace]

54. Canadian here too, and I'm very worried too about what's happening south

very scary IMO...never thought this stuff would be possible in the US

[jim3775]

56. I am worried too

I have been watching the decline since the 2000 election was stolen. I hope bush's new best friend harper gets his agenda blocked at every turn.

[magellan]

71. So it's a race to see who gets Nat'l ID cards first, eh?

Sorry to hear that. The only thing they'll be good for is lining the pockets of our governments with more of our money; forgers will have them figured out before the first legitimate one is issued.

I haven't a CLUE how they're supposed to stop terrorists...unless you poke 'em in the eye with one.

[Stephanie]

60. Canada and France need to join together and liberate us

Would you consider initiating a petition?

[MrMickeysMom]

66. That is the hardest question to answer...

:think: ... because it depends...

There is every reason to believe that "the other North Americans" should step up to the occasion to force our branches of government to work. We currently don't have the concerned numbers, so you might be dissappointed to think that we are in HELL.

However... When enough people start heading in the same direction (be they from one side of the spectrum or other) and out of acts of defiance start shit storms in their respective districts. We're talking about many more people showing up with their camera, cam corders, microphones and acting together to bring corporations to their knees (Walmart, non-Venezualian gas stations, everyday boycotting), then we can start this revolution. :wow

Canada, we've been listening to you and wanting to be more like you, but we have a hard time even KNOWING about you through our "free press" forth estate, corporately run daily snooze. We have to have computers to read the rest of the story. Therefore, the revolutionary thing... the movement must get vocal beyond all middle class alternative forms of media. It must be driven to that point and we are not there yet. Stay tuned and think positively.

Showing up is half the work.

[FreedomAngel82]

70. I wish we could do something

:cry:

[stevedeshazer]

75. Your media still tells it like it is most of the time

For that, I'm envious. As you know, ours is a complete joke.

We're burning our own houses down and eating our seed corn. At this rate, we'll soon be a third-world nation complete with plantations for the wealthy and a feudalist economy. I think you guys are the future of North America; don't make the same mistakes we did.

After we use up your oil, our robber barons will be back for your water. Watch your backs, dear Canadian friends! :hi:

[tsuki]

76. Believe it or not, you are next. Al-Falafel News, 24/7 Hate, has

been allowed into Canada. Working for Change, the reichwing khristian conservative group, has plans for Canada.

http://www.workingforchange.com/article.cfm?ItemID=20372

So be alerted. Now is the time.

[blue cat]

78. It is that bad. I expect much worse in the future.

The repubs have total control and no accountability, and red state Americans are thrilled about it.

[rucky]

80. FUBAR is the word.

F*ed Up Beyond All Recognition

[Harald Ragnarsson]

84. You need to start fighting for all you're worth now

The same forces are hard at work trying to destroy anything good and progressive in Canada too. I know everyone says that the conservatives in Canada are like liberals here, but what you see isn't always what you get.

Keep Canada semi-free and take care of your citizens, fight to keep your namufacturing in country and fight to get out of WTO and Nafta and other trade agreements.

You all may have a lot more citizens on your hands to help you out if things continue on this path here in the States.

[Justpat]

85. If half of our country was as alarmed and saddened as

you, then we might be able to make some changes.

Unfortunately, too many people here are crippled with religious insanity
and fear to make any sane political decisions.

I must admit that I have no hope for us. I don't know what it will take
to shake the sheep from their blind allegiance to this pack of criminals
destroying our country.

[Joey Liberal]

87. It's real bad here. Sad, but true............ n.t

[wordpix2]

91. we are reality-based because we're reading news that contain FACTS &

getting them from a wide variety of web, cable, radio and M$M sources. Our concern about America going down the tubes is as real as the facts we obtain.

[RazzleDazzle]

93. It's very, very dire -- and that's not just my take on it

Here's what 2 conservatives have to say about things:

Paul Craig Roberts: Conservatives Endorse the Fuhrer Principle
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x191386
Link: http://www.antiwar.com/roberts/?articleid=8558

HEY FREEPERS: Read This and WEEP!! Re: Rise of the U.S. Fourth Reich (Pastor Chuck Baldwin)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=451246&mesg_id=451246
Link: http://www.chuckbaldwinlive.com/cwarchive_020706.html

And a research paper from some academics (and students?)

PNAC, power elite, MSM, election fraud, Neo-cons, connecting the dots… (Sonoma State U. research)
(plus some other info and links downthread)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2461267#2461279
Link: http://www.projectcensored.org/downloads/Global_Dominance_Group.pdf


And just one more, for its stark message:

Robert Redford on the American political landscape: "Wake up, folks..."
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2458462
Link: http://www.channel3000.com/entertainment/7015413/detail.html


But there are hundreds and hundreds of warnings and comparisons and speculations and so forth by people who have been observing starting several years ago now. You don't steal an election (2000) and not get noticed and written about, and unfortunately, can it be anything but downhill after that? Do the guilty parties typically correct their course and become "good guys"? Not likely.

[glitch]

95. It's getting better. Think about it, for this lot to succeed as they have,

they've had to lie at every turn. Nobody wants their true ideology. And people are FINALLY waking up to what that is.
They will get worse before they are indicted and convicted, that's a given. Their ideology insists on flame-out.
But they won't achieve their dreams.
Bet on it.

[MellowOne]

96. The "powers that be"

Want to reduce us to the status of a third world country so they can control us. Too much freedom is a dangerous thing when dictatorship is your goal.

[Generator]

97. I know many on DU will disagree with me

But I had this thought the other day that maybe Bush isn't even our biggest worry. IF we get out of here alive, no war with Iran,and Bush actually leaves office and we get someone less dumb and inspiring fealty then we can all breathe a sigh of relief. Not McCain or any name with a Bush-maybe not a even a Dem but any semi sane person we will all weep and sleep for a couple years. (and that's second best case scenario-first would be a Kerry or Edwards presidency in my opinon)

But even if that happens-I honestly worry about the future by the precedent set by this president. The constitution has been ignored. The false excuse of "we are at war" is being used. WHAT IF? That's right ladies and gentlemen-what if-there was someone really smart, really motivated-(does anybody think that Herr Bush Jr. would have ever been president if Daddy wasn't) and really really bad-a real Hitler/Stalin type decided to take over the US? How easy would that be? A snap. We haven't stood up to small tryanny with this pathetic Bush creature-and I fear someone worse with what I've seen in this country. And we have a supreme court that will be there in 20 years that scares me to death.

Oh and Mr. Canadian-DU can trend to the hyperbole-but I will tell you in what I've learned in 2 years of being here-we are the canaries in the coal mine-it may not be happening yet-but it's coming. Absolute power corrupts absolutely, it's not exactly rocket science. And it stuns me that those that have power in this country are watching it all happen and not doing a damn thing.

Edited because I'm the worst speller on DU.

[Mme. Defarge]

98. It is so bad,

it's unbelievable. So, I keep asking myself if I'm going crazy. If it wasn't for my apolitical husband confirming that it's really very bad, I'd figure I just needed to go on medication.

Not sure which is worse, believing I'm nuts, or believing I'm not nuts.

[classics]

105. Please help!

Or at least open your borders, so some of us can flee.

[formercia]

106. It's worse

We've only seen the tip of the iceberg.....

[Blue_In_AK]

107. I'm an Alaskan

Can we join your country? You can just call us another northwest territory or something.

[trixie]

108. It is...

That is why we (my family and friends) run over to your side of the border every couple of weeks.

Hello from Detroit. :hi:

[windy252]

109. It's pretty bad

After the 2004 "election", I ignored the news, with the exception of Keith Olbermann, for quite a while. And, for a good portion of 2005, I buried my head in the sand, because I didn't expect a significant portion of society to wake up before Katrina. My guess is that there always be 35% who will support Bush no matter what happens, give or take 5%. It's gotten to the point where I don't read letters to the editor because I can not take that much combined stupid, plus hearing how poor people are terrible people for using Medicaid.

[Canadian Socialist]

110. Wow!

I post something sorta throwaway because I was getting depressed with all the bad news coming from down there... go out for the evening and now I find I should have drank much more beer. All I can say is hopefully, our present government (conservative) will likely fall within the year and maybe this time we can elect a liberal-ndp coalition, so we don't fall into the same trap as the U.S.

But in the meantime, to my southern friends, please keep your chins up and continue to fight the good fight. If you give up, you might as well die.

[anitar1]

111. It is probably worse than you think. Many of us are .

afraid also. Everyday, I watch my country crumble a bit more. Actually , I watch huge chunks of it fall away.

[Disturbed]

114. NSA Spying is the tip of this iceburg.

Russel Tice NSA

"Russell Tice, NSA Whistleblower, Alleges Illegal Spying ... Tice alleges that some of the secret "black world" operations by NSA were against the law. ..."


http://www.scroogle.org/cgi-bin/nbbw.cgi

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

113. It IS really whacko. It isn't necessarily worse than before. It is more

that more and more is coming out all the time.

Many busy worker bees trying to set things right and bringing things to light.

Scary, nonetheless.

[Marie26]

116. It's pretty bad

But I think maybe people in other countries see it clearer than we do.

[michael_1166]

136. Yes, the U.S.' moral decline started with Reagan.

Same ideology, just not as brazen as Bush.

Grettings from Germany :-)

[skids]

118. Is it me...

...or was the exact same post posted just a month ago?

You're right to worry, BTW. Things are on the verge of falling to pieces here.

[Justitia]

119. If I were y'all, I'd start building a wall.

We're screwed more ways than Sunday down here.

I am visiting your beautiful country this fall. I hope to make the impression that not all Americans are Reich Wing brownshirts.

We were a great country once. Now we officially torture & oppress people, invade weaker countries to steal their natural resources and spy on our own citizens. I could go on and on.

I'd invite you for a visit, but really, who am I kidding...

Sorry, it's a bad night and really shameful to be a US citizen lately.

[ScreamingMeemie]

120. I'll say this, MrG and I took the tunnel to Windsor for dinner last week,

and we almost didn't come home. :( But, It's my country too...and I'm not letting "them" have it.

[Kerrytravelers]

125. Got room for Mr. kt and me and our kitty?

[leeroysphitz]

127. When the Fascists have taken over and the resistance is

struggling to survive and fight these Republican bastards CANADA will be our best ally, our base of operations, our safe haven just across the river. The men and women who FIGHT AND DIE in the Rural hillsides for our freedoms here in the US will do so because they know their FAMILIES have made it across the border and have found sanctuary in CANADA.

In the months and weeks before their nation is over-run by our Jesus backed fascist armies the good and brave citizens of Canada will, with a GREAT and SELFLESS sacrifice, allow thousands of American dissidents to escape to Britain France and elsewhere.

Before this thing is all said and done the Detroit river will be MINED to keep Americans citizens from FLEEING to Canada.

The writing has been on the frigging wall so long that it's actually FADING.

[Heewack]

130. This is hyperbole world.

No, it isn't nearly as bad as people think it is here. Activism is based upon getting people to act. You don't do that unless you can scare people into acting by what they think is the end of their existence or their world view upon which they know it.

[leeroysphitz]

133. Bullshit, read Tom Robbins... Activism may be DOWN but

Some people do CARE.
I don't know who they are or what they WANT but I know they exist somewhere on that MYTHICAL "west coast" I keep reading about.

I wish I could go back about three or three and one half decades (how's THAT for a twist?) I'd love to think that I could actually make a (now what did they call it back then?) difference.

Oh well. That generation had DILLON, PEACE, LOVE and ACID. My generation has only NIRVANA, PANAMA, NIKE'S and CRACK. (How's THAT for being born under a bad sign?)

I'd love to organize the people within my age cohort and TAKE TO THE STREETS but unfortunately they are all at THE MALL shopping with money they do not have for things they do not need...

Ah... These kids today!!!

[Skittles]

131. It is bad, Canada

it is very bad

[laruemtt]

135. it's very very bad. can you guys invade us please?

for the good of the rest of the world? we're harboring the worst WMD of them all - *bushco!

[Geek_Girl]

137. It's worse

But I've come to the conclusion that our government is just a reflection of it's people. I just wish I lived in Canada. Maybe one day I'll be able to move there.

[ProfessorGAC]

139. Well, That's An Unanswerable Question

I don't know HOW bad you're reading it, but i can honestly tell you: It ain't good!

It's going to take at least 15 years to recover from this fiscal disaster and probably 3 generations to undo the damage of this foreign policy.

And, that's if we get some people in office that will take serious action in the shortest possible time.

The Professor

[Guaranteed]

144. When Dems are able to shed their old skin, we'll fix things. nt