A Quail Hunter Has 5 Pointed Questions For Cheney

[Clara T]

Quail Hunter Has Pointed Questions For Cheney
Submitted by davidswanson on Fri, 2006-02-17 13:02. Media

By Don Williams
http://www.knoxnews.com/kns/opinion

* Why did the Cheney team haul the bleeding Whittington an hour and 20
minutes north to a branch of the Christus Spohn Memorial Hospital in
Kingsville, rather than have him flown directly to the more resourceful
parent hospital in Corpus Christi where he wound up about three hours after
the event?

* Why did guards turn away a deputy who drove out to interview the hunting
party? In other words why did no authorities take a statement from Cheney
until some 14 hours after the incident?

* Why did Katharine Armstrong, who phoned the local newspaper, say there was
"no--zero, zippo" drinking before Cheney acknowledged having a beer with his
lunch?

* Why did the Secret Service not know the position of everyone with a loaded
gun in the vicinity of the vice-president?

* Why three versions of how the news broke? One in which Armstrong claims
she made the decision to phone the local media, one in which Cheney asked
her to phone the paper, and, finally, Cheney's answer to a question from
Hume, suggesting Karl Rove played a role in handling the media?

Still, those who say this story has received comparatively more media
attention than it merits are right-though not in the way they imagine.

http://www.afterdowningstreet.org/?q=node/7930

[txindy]

1. The hunters know what's going on.

They're asking questions and pointing fingers at Darth here in Texas, too.

[TomInTib]

4. The hunters knew from the get-go. Especially the Texans.

Even tho the row has subsided somewhat, any cop or hunter will tell you it has as many holes in it as does Harry Whittington.

[sandnsea]

2. Why didn't the SS yell "duck"??

Okay, sounds comical, but think about it for a minute, why didn't they? Nobody has reported the Secret Service doing ANYTHING to prevent that shooting and they're supposed to have their eye on the VP every second. Why didn't they prevent this accident?

[Earth_First]

14. Because they were hunting for "quail"?

:shrug:

[sandnsea]

17. Oh that was funny

Took me the longest time to get it. :rofl:

[slaveplanet]

21. Just like a SNL skit !

It's comical because it's quite likely the truth...

[uppityperson]

44. very good. Or hanging around, just sort of watching things?

[IronLionZion]

25. they were loaded too

or it's a conspiracy man! YEARGH!!!

or Because Cheney is quick draw Mcgraw

Seriously, if there was time to yell DUCK, there's time to not shoot your friend in the face.

[Iris]

3. They think everyone else is stupid.

Funny - because that's what conservatives always say about liberals.

Did they really think no one could figure this shit out?

And is quail hunting really so complicated there are "things about it that just can't be explained"?

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

5. Not Sure Why Being A Hunter Yields Any Additional Credibility To These

questions.

Was I the only one who was a bit perplexed after reading them that none of them had anything to do with hunting? LOL

I've never held a gun in my life and I'm asking the same questions :)

[aikoaiko]

32. I thought the same thing.

There are some legitimate questions about his hunter safety though.

These other questions have nothing to do with hunting but also deserve answers.

[Kolesar]

47. We need a veteran-minister-quail-hunter to really kick their asses!

That would be the trifecta of credibility.

[ThoughtCriminal]

6. One more question for hunters

IF Whittington was walking from the vehicle towards Cheney, that means he was shooting back in the direction of their car, where Mrs Armstrong was sitting. Is this considered unsafe, or is 100 yards far enough out of range?

[rzemanfl]

8. At 100 yards birdshot is either spent or has hit the ground

already.

[RC]

9. It is when someone is blocking most of the pellets.

My question is why was cheney shooting at something behind him. Any birds there should have already been flushed.

[greenleaf]

49. If you look at the photo where the yellow dot marks the place

where Harry was shot. It seems to be a largish bowl like depression.

<>

The possibility is that the birds were released at the bottom of the depression and the shooters were standing around the rim shooting at the birds as they flew up. Perhaps Dick got carried away and tracked the bird and shot Harry as he was standing along the rim of the crater like bowl.

Really very much like shooting fish in a barrel.

[Clara T]

50. Observations

Gelatin Testing: #8 Birdshot Statistics
• Range: 3 yards
• Shotgun: 18 inch barreled Remington 870 Marine Magnumn
• Round: 12 gauge 2¾ Remington Heavy Dove 1-1/8 oz #8 Birdshot
• Gelatin: 9'x9'x19' 10% ordinance gelatin block
• Measured Average Permenant Cavity Penetration: 4.5 inches (11.4 cm)
• Temporary Stretch Cavity: 1.0 to 3 inches (2.5 to 7.6 cm)
• Calibration BB Velocity: 623 fps
• Calibration BB Penetration: 12.5 cm



Observations

*Small sized birdshot such as this #8 heavy dove load is a poor choice for deployment with a tactical shotgun. Wounds inflicted from birdshot tend to be gruesome yet shallow as they lack the penetration required to reach vital cardiovascular or central nervous system structures.

We now know the shot being used was an even smaller grain #7.5 birdshot, packing even less lethal ballistics than previously thought. Included is data for #8 birdshot, the closest we could find, any differences between #7.5 and #8 would be negligible.

http://www.infowars.com/articles/us/cheney_shooting_scientific_proof.htm

[OrangeCountyDemocrat]

7. If You Have Questions....Refer To The Police Report....

That's what the "sheriff" in Kenedy county has to say.

The investigation is over. Everything was on the up and up. You're nothing but a conspiracy theorist.

Why do you hate Amerika so much?

[Nothing Without Hope]

26. Actually, the police investigation is said to have been REOPENED:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x440533
thread title (2-16-06 GD): Investigation Reopened into Cheney Shooting
Comment/excerpt: “The Dallas Morning News on the Cheney hunting accident: ‘Kenedy County sheriff's deputies have redoubled their efforts to investigate the case after criticism of their decision not to interview witnesses until a day after the shooting.’ "

What this means I do not know, but there's the thread on it.

[rzemanfl]

10. My question is, don't those dogs in Texas retrieve? Why was

a millionaire picking up his own bird like a peon?

[ThoughtCriminal]

11. The Secret Service refused to retrieve

when they saw what happened to the dogs. ;p

[Clara T]

12. "What About Rattlesnakes?"

"Nobody in their right mind would go into the bush on foot to pick up a dead
bird--the danger of rattlesnakes is too great and that's what trained bird
dogs are for." That and flushing out the prey.

"You turn the dogs loose and they crisscross in front of the vehicle until
they point or set a covey," Ben explained. "When a covey flushes, it rises
to a height of 20 to 30 feet and then settles. By the time it drops below 10
feet you have no shot because of the underbrush."

I've heard other hunters mention a horizon rule--you don't shoot at birds
below the horizon

from same link

[IronLionZion]

28. John Kerry shoots UP at birds

which would make sense. I don't hunt. :shrug:

[Ladyhawk]

33. Rattlesnakes are hibernating at this time of the year. n/t

[Clara T]

48. They are not hibernating

They have all migrated north to the snakepit in DC.

Sorry couldn't resist.

And my deepest apologies to all the serpents who are in fact beautiful creatures.

[Stephanie]

13. those are good

Matalin was also involved in crafting the spin, starting on Saturday night.

k&r

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

15. Speculation: They did all this because, as bad as it looks, the goal of

avoiding the exposure of possible drunkenness as a cause of the shooting has been accomplished. The whitewash is complete, the evidence cannot be recreated.

[Lone_Star_Dem]

16. Several hunters in my area have asked why he was the only one

who admits to drinking at lunch. They are highly skeptical that he had only one beer and that he was drinking alone.

[karlrschneider]

18. I'm almost surprised some wingnut pundit hasn't suggest it was ROOT beer

:eyes:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

19. They just haven't thought of that yet

Give 'em time.

[karlrschneider]

20. And I had to open my big yap. Sheesh.

;-)

[Straight Shooter]

22. I think someone did mention they were drinking Dr. Pepper.

:)

[Clara T]

24. Shoot first, avoid questions later

A gate blocks the main entrance to the Armstrong Ranch in Texas, where Vice President Dick Cheney accidentally shot fellow hunter Harry Whittington on Feb. 11, 2006.
Shoot first, avoid questions later

The White House's secretive response to Cheney's misfire cannot be understood apart from the society of Texas royalty.

By Sidney Blumenthal

Feb. 15, 2006 | In the original account authorized by Vice President Dick Cheney of his shooting of Harry Whittington, given by Katharine Armstrong, heiress and hunting companion, to the Corpus Christi Caller-Times and later elaborated on to other news outlets, the 11 members of the hunting party set off on the morning of Feb. 11 in two trucks for the wilds of the 50,000-acre Armstrong Ranch in search of quails. After lunch, whose menu was described as antelope, jicama salad, bread and Dr Pepper, the hunters divided into two groups. Cheney went off with Armstrong; Pamela Pitzer Willeford, the U.S. ambassador to Switzerland and Liechtenstein; and Whittington.

At dusk, Whittington, a 78-year-old Austin lawyer and local Republican fixer, shot a bird and went to retrieve it behind the others. Hearing rustling in the bushes, Cheney, who has lately been using a cane in public and wearing two different shoes for comfort, reportedly quickly swiveled 180 degrees, 28-gauge shotgun in hand, and fired at what he believed were quails, but instead hit Whittington, 30 yards distant. "He got peppered pretty good," Armstrong said. "There was some bleeding, but it wasn't horrible. He was more bruised." The circumstances of this hunt were different from Cheney's previously celebrated 2003 hunt at the Rolling Rock Club in Pennsylvania, where he, Associate Supreme Court Justice Antonin Scalia and eight others killed 417 pheasants and an unknown number of mallard ducks specifically raised for the purpose of being herded before the hunters to shoot. At that time, Cheney released to the press the information that he had personally killed 70 pheasants. In the less controlled environment of the Armstrong Ranch, the only known target he hit was Whittington.

The details of the story related by Armstrong, however, defied practical experience and were contradictory. Armstrong told NBC News that while she believed that no one was drinking alcohol, beer may have been served at lunch. "There may have been a beer or two in there," she said, "but remember not everyone in the party was shooting." Armstrong's statement about beer appeared on the MSNBC Web site, but was subsequently and inexplicably scrubbed. Dr Pepper replaced beer in later versions of Armstrong's telling. On the Hunting Accident and Incident Report Form of the Texas Parks and Wildlife Department, the shooter, Richard B. Cheney, checked the "No" box for the question, "Under the apparent influence of intoxicants or drugs?" But in an interview with Fox News Wednesday, Cheney admitted to having a beer earlier in the day, contrary to his statement to Texas officials.

http://www.salon.com/opinion/blumenthal/2006/02/15/cheney/

[Nothing Without Hope]

23. It is also possible that, as Whittington stated in his prepared speech,

he was actually shot on FRIDAY:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x454105
thread title (2-17-06 GD): Question: Why does Mr. Whittington say Friday?
On camera, Whittington says the shooting happened on FRIDAY, not SATURDAY as has been reported.
WASHINGTON POST VIDEO here – the “Friday” comment is just before 1 minute (there is an ad before the Whittington video starts):
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/video/2006/02/17/VI2006021701126.html or http://snipurl.com/Whittington_Friday
MSNBC WHITTINGTON TRANSCRIPT & VIDEO HERE: http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/11409731
SCREENSHOT of MSNBC TRANSCRIPT saying “Friday” here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=454105&mesg_id=456224
(I’ve also saved a full-screen shot but did not upload it because of its size.)
Reuters reports (http://in.today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=worldNews&storyID=2006-02-18T020053Z_01_NOOTR_RTRJONC_0_India-237197-1.xml) the speech and gratuitously adds, after the “Friday” statement that he meant Saturday: “"We all assume certain risks in whatever we do. Regardless of how experienced, careful and dedicated we are, accidents do and will happen. And that's what happened last Friday," Whittington said, meaning on Saturday.”

Another thread on the FRIDAY shooting statement by Whittington:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x456049
thread title (2-17-06 GD): Whittington Shot on Friday? ,

Check out the COMPILATION of threads on the Cheney shooting in GD:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x456727
thread title (2-17-06 GD): COMPILATION OF CHENEY SHOOTING THREADS - with comments/excerpts:
Comment/excerpt: Repost of updated thread started in this forum Feb 14. At time of posting, it is identical to the version in the Research Forum.

and in the Research Forum:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=358x3133
thread title (2-14-06 RESEARCH FORUM): Compilation of threads on 2/06 Cheney shooting incident, including videos

The VIDEO threads are organized at the end of the opening post.

[Clara T]

27. So then we ask ourselves

since the press ain't askin' shit, what went down between the time of the actual shooting and taking to the hospital. Did they think this could be handled in house at the ranch with a few band-aids and then only take Whit to the hospital after they ascertained otherwise?

[Nothing Without Hope]

36. The first priority was clearly to keep it secret. If they could keep it

on the ranch or in a local hospital - to which he was driven on the ground instead of medi-vac'd - then they could have better control of the information.

Whittington's care was not a high priority for these people until it looked like he might die on them. That could prove too much to cover up even for them.

[ladjf]

29. I have another question. If Cheney was close enough to Whittington

to see him fall to the ground, why didn't he see them as he shot his gun? What was he aiming at

[Clara T]

31. Cheney's "long list of medications": What did he take when did he take it?

Cheney's "long list of medications": What did he take, and when did he take it?

Dick Cheney takes a lot of drugs.

That's no joke. That's what his own doctors said back in 2000, when Cheney re-entered the national arena to run for vice president. This is from a letter that that the Bush-Cheney campaign released on July 26 2000, from doctors at the George Washington University Medical Center:

What are those medications? There's no legal requirement to disclose that information, and so the most secretive vice president in American history -- he of the "undisclosed location" -- has done exactly what you'd expect. He had not disclosed that information.

We do know a decent amount about Cheney's general health, which is, ahem, mediocre at best for the man a heartbeat away from the presidency. In fact, Cheney's had four heart attacks and numerous lesser health woes. In 2004, a Boston cardiologist told the Atlantic Monthly: "It's a testament to medical science that he's alive." Which is why it is so important to know whether Cheney was drinking last Saturday, when he shot and wounded 78-year-old acquaintance Harry Whittington while they were hunting quail.

Because there's a chance that even one beer would be bad for a man with Cheney's health history. Two of the most common types of treatments for heart-attack patients, ACE inhibitors and beta blockers, can cause dizziness, drowsiness, blurred vision and impaired judgment in a patient that also drinks alcohol.

And now we know Cheney had a beer.

http://www.pnionline.com/dnblog/attytood/archives/002791.html

Medications for heart attack survivors:
ACE inhibitor such as lisinopril (Zestril), or AR blocker
anti-cholesterol "statin" such as atorvastatin (Lipitor)
aspirin
beta-blocker such as atenolol (Tenormin), metoprolol, or carvedilol (Coreg)
fish oil capsules
nitroglycerin prn
? second lipid-lowering medication
? second blood pressure medication


For generalized atherosclerotic disease:
pentoxifylline (Trental)
sildenafil (Viagra) prn

For left ventricular dysfunction:
furosemide (Lasix)
beta blocker as noted above (esp. carvedilol)
ACE inhibitor/AR blocker as noted above
? digitalis (Digoxin)
? aldosterone blocker such as spironolactone or eplerenone (Inspra)

For gout:
allopurinol (Zyloprim)
indomethacin (Indocin) prn

Other:
yearly influenza immunization
multi-vitamin
low-fat, high-fiber diet
bee sting kit near at hand (for food allergy)

OK, we're pretty sure that he's not taking all of those, but we're also fairly positive he takes some of these. And two of the most likely ones don't mix well with beer.

Go here for various reports on Cheney's medical condition(s):
http://www.doctorzebra.com/prez/a_cheney.htm#27

[aikoaiko]

34. Quails generally move fast and low, cheney was pivoting as he aimed

and then made the decision to pull the trigger and probably kept pivoting with the gun placing his friend in harms way.

It all happens fast. Its not like deer hunting.

[ladjf]

38. I'm not a hunter and it appears that you might be. My question

is this, are you telling me that on a quail hunt, a shooter is clear to swing a full 360' circle to shoot? Whittington was behind Cheney. If Cheney saw the birds flush, they were in front of him then. So, as he was following the birds for the shoot, he swung from the 180' area in front and side all the around to his back and then shot. Please, that couldn't be standard hunting practice. People and property would be shot up all the time. Where were the SS? Shooting to the side would have been dangerous. Shooting backward was no less than loony.

[aikoaiko]

40. its more like 120' in the front of you.

but the line can get turned to face in a new situation depending on where the birds flush.

Don't get me wrong -- Cheney screwed up no matter whether he pivoted 1 degree or 180.

The reason more people don't get shot is that most hunters are very careful --more careful than our VP.

Plus birdshot generally doesn't go very far -- especially compared to a rifle round. All those pellets lose most of their energy beyond 50-75 yds.

[Clara T]

41. Also Whittington was purportedly in a gully

So Cheney must have been shooting REALLY low.

Evidently Cheney didn't get any birds on this days hunt so maybe he was desperate for the kill hence staying out so late and he was tired as meds and beer mixed into soupy stupor impairing him further, sun in eyes as it set and jittery psycopathic tendencies kicked in and KABLAM!

So, let's arrest the guy. Something in there has got to be illegal.

Oh wait war criminals don't get arrested. Sorry, my bad.

[chalky]

30. Another question: How is Armstrong considered an "eyewitness" when

her statement was that she saw everyone running and thought Cheney had had a heart attack?

[Clara T]

35. Another question: Why was Cheney aiming so low

Another hunter, who asked to be anonymous, pointed out Whittington was
supposedly standing in a three-foot gully, which raises the question of why
Cheney was aiming so low. "In South Texas you don't shoot low out of fear of
hitting another man's dog. Those dogs are incredibly expensive and you just
don't take a chance on that. Something don't smell right."

[Swamp Rat]

37. I damand that Cheney answer these questions!

[Catherine Vincent]

39. Nice pic there of Shot-gun Cheney!

:hi:

[usregimechange]

42. Have a link to the "no--zero, zippo" statement?

[Clara T]

43. Yeah I'll dig it up and post it over

It's a direct quote.

[Clara T]

45. Here's a few sources

Cheney admitted that he had been drinking beer earlier at lunch but that no one went back out into the fields to continue hunting that took more alcohol with them.  At the time of the hunting accident, Cheney was not asked to submit to a sobriety test.

The host, Katharine Armstrong, said no one had been drinking before the shooting and all were wearing blaze-orange safety gear.

Armstrong said she saw Cheney's security detail running toward the scene. "The first thing that crossed my mind was he had a heart problem," she told The Associated Press.

http://www.axcessnews.com/modules/wfsection/article.php?articleid=8151

The handling of the situation also raised questions about whether Cheney had been drinking at the time of the shooting, about 5:50 p.m. Cheney told Fox he had had a beer at lunch, but the hunt did not begin until "sometime after 3 p.m."

"The five of us who were in that party were together all afternoon. Nobody was drinking, nobody was under the influence," he said.

The Kenedy County Sheriff's Department, which interviewed Cheney about the accident Sunday morning, concluded there was "no alcohol or misconduct involved in the incident." A state game warden gave Cheney a warning for hunting without a required stamp on his license, for which the vice president's office later submitted payment.

Armstrong, a longtime friend of the Cheney family, told CNN before the vice president's interview that she never saw Cheney or Whittington "drink at all on the day of the shooting until after the accident occurred, when the vice president fixed himself a cocktail back at the house."
http://www.cnn.com/2006/POLITICS/02/15/cheney/index.html

Tucker Carlson: “You Can’t Drink A Beer If You Shoot. Period.”

Last night on his MSNBC show, conservative pundit Tucker Carlson said it was “totally unacceptable” for Vice President Cheney to drink prior to hunting. Carlson said, “I’ve been on dozens of hunts, there’s no beer served as lunch. You can’t drink a beer if you shoot, period. Doesn’t matter if you’re shooting five hours after, you’re not allowed to do it.”

He also made a couple of other important points:

1. Cheney “does take heart medication that, combined with alcohol, could make him a bit woozy.”

2. “e don’t have a blood alcohol reading from the Vice President, we don’t know what exactly was in his blood.”

>snip<

CARLSON: So was it irresponsible for the Vice President to fire a weapon after having a beer? After all, the man does take heart medication that, combined with alcohol, could make him a bit woozy.

http://thinkprogress.org/2006/02/16/carlson-beer

[iwillalwayswonderwhy]

46. Above the law

Who else would not be immediately questioned by the police if they accidentally shot a friend? Who else would not be breathalyzed after accidentally shooting a friend?