How Are people Going to Live?

[leftyladyfrommo]

I live about as frugally as is possible in this US. I have a 600 sq ft house, no cable, no computer, one phone line and a cell phone. I have a $350 house payment, a $360 car payment and utilities. That is all.

My insurance payments alone run about $450 a month (that is medical and car). My utlites this month will be about $300.

What is wrong with this picture?

I don't think many babyboomers have saved much money. They relied on 401k's and many have borrowed against those.

This is a pretty scary picture.

[Libby2]

1. I ask that same question every day.

I'm very worried too.

[shadowknows69]

2. Well luckily

my wife and I haven't had health care in so long that we probably won't survive into our golden years so we just try to stay fed and sheltered until our time.

[leftyladyfrommo]

3. There was an article in our paper this morning on extending

life spans by decades. Of course, no one has done it yet but they were claiming that it could be done.

So how are these people going to live?

I don't care how much you raise the retirement age people can only work for so long. Older people cannot compete with young people on a lot of levels - speed, for one thing.

[havocmom]

23. BINGO

That about sums it up for way too many people in a nation which has so much of the world's wealth.

[demnan]

4. Something must be done

You are living frugally, many people don't and pensions are out of the question. As far as 401Ks are concerned, I still think the banks get most of the money. I'm highly suspicious of them. The only thing you can do is buy as much home as you possibly can afford and hope to get a reverse mortgage and live off the value of the house when the time comes. My mother just got one. She will be getting back $1400 a month on her reverse mortgage and there will still be value in the house when she dies. This is her house my parents bought in 1968 for $24K - and is now worth over $400K! In the Washington area, the price of real estate just goes up and up. That's my only hope.

600 sq ft is awfully small for a house! I live in a condo and it's 850 sq ft., pretty darn small and no frills But it's worth over $200K! Go figure. Look into that reverse mortgage, that's my recommendation.

[leftyladyfrommo]

7. My house might be worth $70,000 on a good day.

And the real estate market here is falling. Midwest property is nothing like property on the coasts. I don't think my house is the answer.

I think I will just need to work until I die. That is kind of my plan.

[Delphinus]

57. Hi leftylady,

I'm in the Midwest too (IN) and houses sit (in my area, anyway) for years.

I'm hoping I stay well until I get Medicare at, what, 70 now? And I'm also planning on working until I die - which is why it's most important to enjoy what I do.

[SharonAnn]

70. Medicare is at age 65. Social Security age goes up over time.

[mousie]

36. I'm in the same boat

can't keep up with the bills, drowning in credit card debt.... looking towards retirement and nothing left in savings and won't be able to get by. I guess the reverse mortgage will be my only hope, should I live long enough to retire!!! For now I have to keep working as long as I possibly can and still not have enough for just basic bills, nevermind any luxuries like clothing, home repairs and so forth. The house is falling apart around me, but just can't keep up with it!!

[tenshi816]

99. What's a reverse mortgage?

I've been gone from the States for 20 years and am not up to date on some things (like, for example, I can't get away from Paris Hilton but don't know what a reverse mortgage is). Can you explain it for me please?

[converted_democrat]

111. First off, to be able to do it you have to have some equity in the

home you're going to do it with.. Instead of you paying the bank a monthly mortgage, they pay you a set amount monthly based on the amount of equity you have in your home. Then when the house is sold you (or your estate) get the asking price minus what they have already paid you.. It's a little more complicated than that, but that's essentially what occurs.. IMHO, it's never a good idea to do unless you are in dire straits financially.. They are becoming more popular because so many in this country are having such a rough time, especially seniors.

[Plausible]

5. Important Question

I've been thinking a lot of seniors will be living on the streets.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. Not for long, they won't

I don't think old folks can survive on the streets.

[kevinbgoode]

90. I remember when I was a child. . .in the 1960's

there were quite a few households in my neighborhood where elderly sisters, friends, acquaintances, etc. lived together - it helped the homeowner manage to keep the house and provided companionship as roommates. . .a'la Golden Girls, only the homes in my old neighborhood were much more midwestern blue collar.

Even though most Boomers are pretty independent minded, a lot of them had experience living frugally with cooperative roommates when they were younger - I anticipate a lot of people doing this as one way to save money and help enjoy their senior years. It makes some sense, actually - if your children live across the country, or you don't have any children, having a roommate that you get along with is a way to look after each other's health, run errands, have someone to eat dinner with or enjoy a movie.

[nolies32fouettes]

6. I wrote about that same thing here.

http://www.progressiveu.org/060203-how-is-the-everyday-person-surviving-in-todays-society

(feel free to post a comment there. you don't have to register.)

[Plausible]

9. nice blog n/t

[nolies32fouettes]

25. thank you! I work really hard on it

and am working two jobs and going to school too. Please share it with your friends and check in frequently! ;) (feel free to post there, you don't have to register.)

[leftyladyfrommo]

10. Thank you for the link.

This issue is really starting to bother me.

I'm wondering if a whole bunch of us are just going to be out on the streets with our stolen grocery carts. And the awful part is that I'm not really kidding.

Women are especially at risk because they don't have the social security built up that most men do. Or any other kind of work related plans.

But even that doesn't mean you are safe. Pension plans are just being flung out the door. One man on the news had worked for an airline for 30 years. When they went bankrupt his pension was 25% of what he thought it was going to be. So he went back to work.

[nolies32fouettes]

24. I know. That's why we have to reach the college age kids

who will suffer the longest.

And we have to fight NOW. We can't let them use the terra and the fundie stuff any longer.

Take back religion and take back our country. The Amerian taliban of the rightwingers is as dangerous as the other taliban.

[LiberalEsto]

50. Maybe we can spend our old age protesting all this

alternatively they might round us up and stick us in re-education camps

[leftyladyfrommo]

87. We Could be the New Grey Panthers!

We could get picket signs and everything. At least we would go down having a good time.

[Joe Fields]

59. Nice blog. Nice article.

[Warpy]

8. Belive it or not, there are still ways to cut expenses

I live in a 1300 square foot house and my gas bill is generally under $50 for heating, cooking and hot water. In the coldest months, I supplement with a woodstove or roll up in an electric blanket if there's a pollution alert. I knit my own wool sweaters, which I live in during the winter. I close rooms I'm not using off, like the bedroom, which I prefer cool. My water heater is turned to the lowest temperature. I find that adequate for my needs and I live alone.

My car payment, when I had one, was half of what yours is because I bought a used car and kept it. It's always cheaper to fix an old, ugly car than it is to buy a new one, and mine needed a clutch this year.

I shave money off the light bill by using fluorescent lights, an LCD puter screen (which I bought online at auction) and evaporative cooling instead of refrigerated air conditioning (it's a regional thing, alas).

As for health insurance, I've been without that since 1987, thanks to chronic illness that jacks insurance costs nearly triple what a healthy person my age would be expected to pay. The choice was between paying for shelter and paying an insurnace company and shelter won. I am deeply angry that I and so many other people had to make that choice.

Baby boomers, especially those in the older cohort, not only have been unable to save, they've seen most of their pension contributions robbed every time they changed jobs (that law was changed too late) and now nakedly robbed, right out in the open, by corporations that would rather file bankrupcy than return the money to its workers.

The way that we have been kept artificially poor to fatten the rich is about to reach its logical conclusion, I'm afraid, and no amount of scrimping or downright privation is going to help us.

I can knit. Get the tumbrils back into working order. I'm ready.

[leftyladyfrommo]

11. I only have 3 rooms.

Actually, my car is my only luxury. It will be gone the way of other stuff if I get to where I can't pay for it.

And I have insurance on Cobra for 18 months. Then I don't know what I will do. I got a great rate on it because i worked for a fairly large bank.

I am trying to cut my other costs - like food. I was spending too much on eating and stuff like that so I have been really working at fixing cheap crockpot meals.

[Plausible]

14. people are pretty much reaching the limit

of how much you can cut down.
One illness with no health insurance can take everything you own.

Used car vs new car is a fine line on cost of repairs vs payments and fear of breakdowns on a freeway.

I know people who can't make ends meet who vote Rethug. How do you fix that.

[Warpy]

15. Dang, honey, you are doing all you can

and are probably in a negative value situation with that car, so if you tried to give it up, you'd still owe money over what it would sell for.

That's why I always drive jalopies. I got used to the sneers a long time ago.

The crock pot is certainly an economical way to cook, much cheaper than any other method. Mine usually has beans in it.

Eliminating convenience foods will also save a bundle. I forgot that one.

[leftyladyfrommo]

13. Oh, and we have bill trying to get through in Missouri

that it won't matter if people try to be frugal. If their bill is down they get hit with a franchise tax to make up for it. Bill is sponsored by the utility company.

[babylonsister]

30. Done for my benefit, but want to share. Tumbril:

tum·brel or tum·bril Audio pronunciation of "tumbrils" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (tmbrl)
n.

1. A two-wheeled cart, especially a farmer's cart that can be tilted to dump a load.
2. A crude cart used to carry condemned prisoners to their place of execution, as during the French Revolution.

Is this the tumbril you were suggesting, Warpy? I hope you're 'not ready' for this!

[SharonAnn]

71. Refers to the French Revolution and executing the aristocracy.

[glitch]

41. "I can knit. Get the tumbrils back into working order. I'm ready."

Yikes, I like your attitude! What these fools are waking...

[lpbk2713]

12. The way *they* see it, that doesn't matter.

They were born into privelege and they are convinced they got where they are due to hard work and devotion to some deity. They lie, cheat and steal to perpetuate their existence and always find a way to rationalize whatever they do when they are taken to task. They don't worry about anyone else as long as they have their piece of the pie plus a little bit more. The only time they give others who aren't as priveleged a thought is when they think others might become a threat to their existence.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

16. Get a roomate?

I know your house is already small, but I think this will be a big trend in the future. Maybe find a sympatico housemate in a similar position.

[Lindsay]

17. I've wondered if communes are due for a comeback.

I'm best living alone, as I'm cranky and sleep weird hours - but sharing work and expenses is sounding better every day.

[Phoebe Loosinhouse]

40. I've kicked around the idea of elder communes for awhile

I was thinking it would be great for elder people of varying ages to live together and pool their incomes so that they could live in some kind of comfort.

Also, I was thinking that maybe outdated old motels could be refurbished by knocking out a few walls to make some more spacious units. These motels are usually ranch style, which is good. Maybe you could build a community dining area and maybe a rec and social area too.

It's also not just the elderly that are facing an affordable housing crisis. We need to be a lot more creative in our answers to these issues. Many poor families today live by necessity in motel type conditions because that is the only ousing they can find.

[dysfunctional press]

51. not just for the elderly...

my wife and i have no kids, & we're in our mid-40's- we have a shitload of equity, and no credit card debt.
we've been considering ways to find some like-minded people, depart the city, buy some acreage, and set up a co-op/communal living thing...

I DEFINITELY see it as a wave of the not-to-distant future.

[Jim Warren]

53. Quite agree

She and I are contemplating a similar future path.

[kevinbgoode]

93. I like that idea. . .

I'm only a few years older than you are, and I've often thought that I could do well in that environment. I've only lived alone a few years of my adult life. . .shoot, when I went back to school, I lived in one large house with three guys in their early 20's for almost three years! If a 50 year old can cope with that, I can handle living with adults!

[converted_democrat]

112. My SO and I have been thinking along those same lines..

We've actually poured alot of research into it.. The biggest problems are insurance, and liability, they are outrageous.. We have already figured out that we can't afford to set it up by ourselves in America, but we could swing it in Mexico.. Our idea is for everyone that is like minded, young and old alike.. This is my dream..

on edit-
We want to attract different skill sets.. My SO is into electric, and is an engineering whiz.. We want a real village.. Doctors, teachers, indian chiefs, the whole deal.. I think the elderly are worth their wait in gold.. The experiences that got them through the depression are important, plus many are whizzes when it comes to gardening and food preservation.. It takes a village..

[dysfunctional press]

117. i used to do construction work-

i have the tools and the skills in carpentry, plumbing, electrical(to a degree) and concrete work...lately i've been getting more and more into wood/metalworking, doing sculptures and fountains, etc...

we're not looking for a whole village- just 8-12 people who can get along fairly well...although everyone/each couple(or more- polyamory is cool w/us) would have their private living space, there would also be common areas- kitchen, work-space, etc...

we'll probably/hopefully be gearing it up and getting more serious during this year...we're thinking more along the lines of SW/Central Wisconsin- Russ Feingold country, and very beautiful.

btw- according to what i saw on King of the Hill, Americans can't own land in Mexico- is that true?

[converted_democrat]

118. You can't buy for like 65-70 miles inland, or within 75- 100 miles from

the border, but you can lease it on leases like 99 years.(I can't remember the exact figure, but what I quoted is fairly close. It doesn't really effect us too much because because we are looking at the interior west side.) When you buy property it doesn't go in to your name, it is basically like that of an American trust. There are several different ways to own a business, but they have weird rules about that too, but it's not tough if you hire a reputable Mexican lawyer.. We're looking into it because of CAFTA.. There are some decent opportunities if you know what you're looking for.. We were looking at the Cancun area, but the hurricanes are too much.. We live in Florida now, and it's just too much to deal with.

[dysfunctional press]

119. Mexico is just too hot for me/us.

we're definitely 4 season people- and we'd like to be able to enjoy some REAL snow in the winter. in chicago all you seem to get is cold.

[converted_democrat]

120. I grew up in Ohio, and loved the weather there... I've lived in Florida

for awhile now.. I hate Christmas here because it just never "seems" like the holidays.. The biggest reason we are looking at Mexico is because I'm not sure I want to be in the US. I love my country, but I'm not sure I want to live here in the near future.. I really am beginning to fear the future here.. I do have to say though, I love Russ Feingold. I've commented several times that I wish he'd run for president.. Do you think it will be safe in the US?

[bobbieinok]

76. in Ames IA some time ago a motel rented its rooms to students

as studio apts

[northofdenali]

81. Not necessarily communes, but definitely

communal living, in the form of intentional communities. Like-minded folks of diverse talents. Those who can garden, heal, build, weave, can/dehydrate foods, hunt, animal husbandry, etc.

I can see it happening in many areas. Here, I'd definitely want someone with a good dog team, as well!!

My mother is almost 90 and feels that Bush and his ilk are intentionally trying to be rid of the elderly and sick.

[Wcross]

18. I am going to do it by not being average.

I work in a job that pays good for my area and they offer a pension plan. I have my 401k maxed out and have a roth IRA in place. The job is NOT what I WANT to do but I look at it as something I have to do.
I bought a small home (680sq) on 15 acres in a rural area for less than I take home in a year. I used my savings for a large down payment so my mortgage is for a five year term and will be paid off next year. It ain't much but it keeps the weather out and its comfortable.
I don't buy anything on credit. I don't go to the movies or eat out. I live like I make half of what I really do and it is starting to pay off. Many people try to keep up with the Joneses, I think the Joneses are idiots.

[tenshi816]

84. But, but, but,

being in hock up to your eyeballs is patriotic! Why do you hate America?

Seriously though, you've got the right idea. I'm trying to do the same thing, and discovering (in a good way) just how many things I can live without. I don't have to have the newest electronic gadget. I don't need new clothes just for the sake of being trendy. I enjoy cooking and can eat well at home for a fraction of what it costs to dine out. Movies? I can wait for them to be shown on TV. It's nice to step back from the constant inducement to buy, buy, buy. This is the first time in my life I've ever lived within my means and without credit card debt, and it feels so good. I don't wake up at night anymore feeling buyer's remorse because I've overspent on something I shouldn't have bought in the first place.

The last time I was back home visiting my family, one of my cousins was wearing a t-shirt that said "shop 'til you drop", and boy does she ever. She's also in serious financial trouble, but just can't stay away from the mall.

[Wcross]

97. I have a sister in law like that.

I went to my brothers house one time and we went down to the basement for something. Holy Crap- It was packed with "stuff" that wasn't even being used!
This woman decorates for every holiday/celebration (other than presidents day-I hope)
My ultimate plan is to pay off the mortgage. Install solar panels and a geo-thermal heating/cooling system. If I could eliminate my monthly electric bill I will be well ahead of the game.

[tenshi816]

98. You really are planning ahead!

I wonder if it would be worthwhile to have a DU group about stuff like this, a kind of "preparing for the inevitable" forum.

I remember when I was a young woman discovering an old copy of the original Whole Earth Catalog and later the Foxfire series of books. They intrigued me even then because I always liked the idea of self-sufficiency (and even though I fell way, way away from that path as I grew older, I've now started making my way back to it).

My family has occupied the same area of NE Georgia since the late 1700s and until the last generation were always farming people; even when my parents were growing up, they were from largely self-sufficient households. Their families ate the animals they raised or hunted themselves, grew their own fruit and vegetables, knitted, made their own clothes, drank milk fresh from the cow, ground corn and wheat for cornmeal and flour, and made their own butter. Water came from the well and my grandparents still had a wood stove in the 1970s (and never had a phone before 1975). My grandmother was into herbal remedies before it was cool, and grew her own flowers and herbs to use. My grandfather even made whiskey, although that's a path probably best avoided. My grandmother canned fruits and vegetables to eat in the winter, and made all her own preserves. A trip "to town" was a big deal, and even then it was to buy non-food items (they were good at a lot of things, but didn't make their own shoes or laundry detergent!).

When I was growing up we lived in Atlanta and I was a real city girl, embarrassed by my "country" background. Now I feel altogether differently and while I wouldn't like to go all the way back to basics the way my grandparents lived, I admire them for knowing how to do all the things they did. The sad truth is, if we didn't have the conveniences we have today, many of us wouldn't know how to survive. That really bothers me.

[converted_democrat]

113. I have a country background as well..

I grew up in rural Ohio.. I can grow a garden, can foods, raise animals, slaughter an animal, and sew.. My grandfather was a depression survivor and he taught me everything I know. I've never "had" to use any of my skills, but it was sooo important to him that he teach them to me.. I'm really glad he did..

[tenshi816]

114. My parents were born in the Depression

and were poor, but because they were from farming families they never went hungry (although sometimes meat was in short supply - as a result, my mother didn't eat much meat even after she became an adult because she had grown to like vegetables and bread so much).

My dad used to say that he and his siblings only got one new pair of boots a year, when school started in September, and they wore them even if they got too small because that was it until the following year.

I learned a lot of skills from my grandmother that, like you, I've never been forced to use, but I know I could if I had to. I can't help but wonder if things will trend that way in the future, with people banding together to form largely self-sufficient communities. I can think of worse ways to live. Damn, I sound like some kind of godless commie, don't I?!

[converted_democrat]

115. I guess I've never understood why "commie" has such a bad rap..

What is so godless about everyone pitching in and taking care of the least among us? I am a Christian, and it seems right in line with everything Jesus ever taught.. I don't understand why the "Christians" of this country think they have to be rich and selfish. I don't think Jesus would have thought highly of status symbols when there are so many people going hungry. (I know that not all of them not like that, but as of recently it is definitely the trend.) Well, I guess if you're a Godless commie than I must be too.. :pals:

[tenshi816]

116. Same thing with the term "socialist".

Having lived in the UK for just a couple months shy of 20 years, I am a big fan of the National Health Service and I simply can't understand why so many Americans (like my dad, who has congestive heart failure) who would benefit from a similar program completely reject the idea because it's <gasp!> socialist. The only explanation I can come up with is that, to their way of thinking, they don't want it because it would mean that someone, somewhere, who isn't paying taxes might actually get the same benefits as the people who are. So, some people would rather cut off their nose to spite their face. Crazy.

My husband and I pay in excess of 50% of our income in taxes and national insurance, and you know what? I'm OK with it. Yes, I know that somewhere along the way there are bound to be some welfare frauds and illegal immigrants taking advantage of the same national healthcare that my family and I are fortunate enough to have, and it just doesn't bother me. It doesn't affect my life adversely for someone else to benefit from the high taxes we pay, because it doesn't diminish what we get out of it. What it does mean is that I don't worry if we have a health crisis. It means that university fees are only £3,000 a year - and that includes universities like Oxford and Cambridge. It means that public transport - while we moan about it endlessly - is still pretty reliable and available. I have so much less stress than I did 20 years ago because I don't have to worry about some of the things I did as a very young woman then, like what would happen if I got really sick.

If that makes me a socialist, then I guess I can live with that label too! :hi:

Edited for typo.

[kevinbgoode]

94. I like your attitude as well. . .

one thing I re-learned when I went back to college was how to live on next-to-nothing, or. . .about half of the income I was used to years ago. I got used to Aldi, Big Lots and the clearance meat at the supermarket, and I actually feel comfortable. When I was living the "American dream" in a nice big condo in a great neighborhood of a large city, it seemed like every weekend was spent on maintenance - you know, all the chores of dusting, cleaning, etc. in a place where two people lived in a three-bedroom unit with two large baths. . .

Then I went to a small apartment, a large house with three young roomies, and then an even tinier apartment, which I really like now - you don't often get lonely living by yourself in a small, manageable unit.

[Pharaoh]

19. Die liberal scum Die!!!

:sarcasm:

[Cassandra]

20. Corporations ought to be worrying...

how are people going to spend when those at the top have all the money?
That's a really small house you have. My NYC apartment is 637 sq. ft. and I think that's a bit small for me. My rent is $1250, my health insurance is $598 a month (just jumped 20%). My gas (heat and cooking) is included in my rent but my electric has gone up from 12 cents per kilowatt hour last year to 22 cents last month, which works out to around $70 per month for my winter electric (used to be around $35). I have cable because I have no reception without it, I have no car, no cell phone, three phone lines (one is business). Public transportation is $76 for a monthly Metrocard with unlimited rides but I've been walking for exercise so much more that I decided to switch to a pay per ride card ($2 per ride with volume discounts) and found that I was saving $16 a month. I cook for myself quite a bit and now that I'm on Weight Watchers I am eating much less volume, which saves some money. I shop at the greenmarket and the cheaper gourmet stores when I want something special.

[rman]

39. Big corporations depend on the global economy,

not on the US economy.

[Yupster]

44. Right Rman

as the US declines and China climbs, corporations will just move to where the profits are.

Yum Brands (Taco Bell, Kentucky Fried Ckicken) are already opening 80 restaurants a quarter in China.

Corporations will be fine. They'll just change their focus from one geography to another.

[SammyWinstonJack]

56. Well they better start paying better in those other countries then

they currently do, if they expect to off-load their crap on the slave labor they employ,because Americans who will soon be unable to purchase anything but the necessities if even that. Greedy Bastards!

[Golden Raisin]

21. And Bush, Cheney, Rove,

Norquist and company care just as much for your plight as they did for the displaced people of New Orleans. Frankly, I don't have a lot of faith in the Democrats either although they have a bit more of a social awareness/conscience than the Republicans, who only want to keep the rich richer and gut/abolish every program and aid for the middle and poor classes. They've got theirs and everyone else be damned. Marie Antoinette had nothing on this crowd. So its going to be a long, unpleasant haul for baby boomers (and others) who are not in tip-top financial condition. I used to think the boomers were a significant & huge enough voting bloc to make a difference and force Congress to pay attention, but I've gradually come to the realization that election results just aren't reliable & honest in this country anymore (look at the 2 Dubya elections) so I am seriously worried about what the future will hold. And, except for a very small handful of good apples, our Congresspeople aren't worth a damn. And of course BushCo is too busy pissing away obscene, scandalous & almost incomprehensible amounts of money on Iraq, no bid contracts for Halliburton, keeping the Oil Company CEO's happy, etc. Think what could be accomplished if even a miniscule percentage of that money were devoted to positive issues like cancer research, educating out children to seriously compete in the world economy, resolving and cleaning up the horrendous medical insurance/pharmaceutical disaster that we have in this country, etc.

[sendero]

102. You got it..

... that's pretty much how I see it also, and "welcome to DU" :)

[mnhtnbb]

22. Many need to seriously think about retiring overseas

You can live very well on a LOT less, especially in Latin American countries where you have no need for heating or air conditioning (if you buy in mountains or with coastal breezes).

I suggest www.internationalliving.com and http://www.escapeartist.com/

as places to start.

We have bought property in Panama and are building a house. Panama has very good benefits for retirees, including a permanent resident visa which entitles retirees to theses benefits:

The following benefits are for all retirees- both Foreign residents and Panamanian:

50% off closing costs for home loans.

25% off both international and domestic airline tickets.

50% off hotel accomodations Monday-Thursday

10% off prescription medicines ( which are inexpensive to begin with)

15% off dental and eye exams.

30% off bus, boat and train fares.

25% Restaurants

15% Fast Food Restaurants

20% Doctor visits and Surgery

50% off entertainment including movies, concerts, theater everyday. ( This means for example, a movie ticket will cost you $2. And Panama movie houses receive American movies about the same time they come out in the States.)

For additional Panama info I suggest: http://www.panamainfo.com/en/

[mike_c]

32. retirement overseas is my plan too, and I'm not picky about...

...social niceties. I'll get a small pension from the state when I retire-- enough to live in abject poverty in the U.S. or in less egregious poverty in, say, Venezuala.

[AnneD]

64. Hubby and I are looking into it now...

even though we are well set...it would strech our dollars further. Hubby is well traveled and fluent in many languages. We are trying to remain as portable as possible. If we continue on the path we are on...I won't want to be an American.

[MichiganVote]

69. Just curious..what areas are you looking into

[AnneD]

78. As I will be responsible for Mom in her declining years....

we are looking at Canada now. It won't be too hard on her. We are fortunate to have many well connected friends all over the world (England, Switzerland, and Germany) that have offered us help. Hubby is from India so we have that option too.

[kevinbgoode]

95. This sounds fascinating. . .but. . what about the language barrier?

I thought about teaching overseas actually, but worried about the cost of living and being able to secure home ownership somewhere...and of course, the language. And with our present government trying desperately to get the entire world to hate us except the rightwing loonies in charge of Poland, I've worried about violence or crime directed at American nationals living in countries with lower standards of living.

[democrank]

26. Scary indeed.

I marvel at all the rosy economic forecasts. Americans are drowning in credit card debt and are saving almost nothing. Doesn`t sound very rosy to me.

Like the federal government, many states are operating in the red and are struggling to keep up with the ever-growing needs of their citizens. In the meantime, Bush is busy chop, chop, chopping social programs for the neediest so he`ll have extra dough to turn over to his oil company compadres.

In this part of rural Vermont, most everyone I know is just hanging on....week to week. All it will take is a blown engine, a medical emergency or an unexpected extra barrel of heating oil to force them over the edge.

I`m grateful that I learned to be frugal early on. I make everything from scratch, patch my clothes, drive only used cars I can pay cash for and charge nothing. Almost everything I own came from a thrift shop or yard sale. If it wasn`t for these money-saving choices, I`d be out on the street.

[jarab]

27. Your question concerns me, too.

Many (more) of my "brothers and sisters" are beginning to sell their homes and migrate (back) to the mountains after retirement from the factory jobs they had to leave for in previous generations.
They lived good while working and had no choice; but now they find their retirement funds (while they last) will stretch a lot farther living rurally.
In many cases, they had adapted to the northern climes, but had no choice but to come back if they wanted to survive on reduced incomes.
As for those without any retirements, I'm worried.

...O...

[grasswire]

28. about the only remedy is doubling up

When two people share rent and utilities....well, the benefits are obvious.

I believe there is one way that some people could survive better: marriages of convenience. Those who have health care could then add the new "spouse" to health care plan. Social security benefits would be greatly enhanced for some. Pensions could be assigned to beneficiaries, etc.

So, DU-ers, if you have a dear friend please consider this option. It's just one way that the common person can strike back at a system set up against the people.

[Plausible]

33. I don't know about this one

it's not easy to live with other people that you actually love. Also, marriage can impact SS benefits for women adversely in some cases.

Marriage should not be the answer to poverty for women :(


This could actually be a good argument for domestic partnerships, though.

[OutNow]

37. Marriage of Convenience - Not with IBM

I think many retired people in Florida become "roommates" or do a marriage of convenience to share costs, health care benefits, etc. IBM changed their retirement plan last year so you can't add a new spouse as a beneficiary after you retire, even if your spouse dies. Of course they don't just screw retirees; anyone hired after 2005 will get no pension at all! Hey, they have to get the money to pay the CEO hundreds of millions of dollars a year from somewhere. No pension cut for them.

[FlaGranny]

45. My sister lives with her

boyfriend. They remain unmarried in their 80s. They signed legal agreements to take care of all the legal ramifications of their home, personal affairs, etc. I tease her about "living in sin." She tells me that at their ages, not much sin happens. :-)

[AnneD]

65. Some minister's preform a

marriage in God's eye's. It is not recorded in some way and is for just these instances. Dear Abby use to write about them.

[FlaGranny]

86. My sister wouldn't be

interested. My immediate family are all nonbelievers. It's a very nice thing for those ministers to do for those who are interested, though. Good for them.

[AnneD]

108. Some elderly...

are old fashion that way but it is not in their economic interest to get married. This was a religious way to deal with a social inequity. I always thought it was a great idea.

[Mr.Green93]

31. $300 utilities for a 600 sq. ft. house?

That seems very high.

[LiberalEsto]

54. Weatherization

If you're at a certain income level you may qualify for federally-funded weatherization improvements for your home.

You might also want to look into ways to lower your utility bills with plastic sheeting for windows, etc. And someone on another DU thread posted some information on an economical room heater a while back. I haven't tried one but you might look into it.

Here's the link:
http://www.eheat.us/?opt=products

I save by buying many of our clothes and household furnishings at garage sales. Almost my entire house is decorated in Early Yard Sale. I buy rolls of holiday gift wrap in July for 50 cents a roll, etc.

[leftyladyfrommo]

88. Well, it's February and my utility bills are high.

I just called and cancelled everything on my phone - even long distance. I can't afford having two phone bills. I will just use my cell phone for everything.

[sendero]

103. Lots of people..

... are doing away with their landlines altogether. Unless you use your phone a lot, it might save you another $35 a month to do so also.

[Gregorian]

34. After 20 years, I just cancelled my health insurance.

I'll take my chances. After a sudden 55% increase in my payments, I am fed up with not having a country that cares about it's people. Ammunition and jails, yes. Health care and education, no.

Otherwise, I am as frugal as you can get. Food and internet connection are my most important things in life. Those I will fight to the death for. Haha.

[PassingFair]

35. This causes me great cerebral pain also!

I'm don't like broaching it with people.
The ones who HAVE thought about it just
spew out their PERSONAL plans and experiences.

They don't realize that the tide that "lifts
all boats" can also BEACH all boats.

Those in no debt will be in as bad shape as
those with lots of debt when the whole house
of cards comes down.

In the depression, lots of folks just stayed in
their homes, even though they were foreclosed upon.
When movers came to evict people, they were frequently
met with angry neighbors who stood together and refused
entry to the movers.

We may well see this again.

I would like to see a Reality TV Show called "FORECLOSURE"
...showing what happens to ACTUAL FAMILIES going through
the process. Where do they wind up, where do they go in the
interim? There would be NO SHORTAGE of episodes!

[leftyladyfrommo]

89. That is a great idea for a show. Would get the message out.

[AnneD]

38. This is/will be an ever increasing problem.....

All though his politics lean to the right, I do recommend you get and listen to Dave Ramsey and his book Total Money Makeover. It has been indispensable for Hubby and I to get back on track. The first baby step is to save $1000 as an emergency fund (for emergency ONLY). Cut up your credit cards at this point because you have a bit of money for that car repair etc. Baby step 2, list all your debt starting with the least owed first.It is called a debt snowball. I don't care what the interest rate on the card is, pay the smallest off first. It gives you a needed atta boy to be able to scratch it off your list. Once one is payed off you apply what you paid for the paid off card to the next, and on and on. After paying your debts, then focus on building a 3-6 month emergency fund and retirement.

Now, what is hurting you is that car payment. It is disproportionately large to your other expenses. Never ever buy a car unless you have saved up money to pay for it in cash. Hubby drives a $1000 car(up from $800) and I upgraded to a $2000 car. Used car are very dependable if you shop wisely. And for God's sake do not lease. Not having a car note will change everything for you.

We are not taught how to manage money and it is so important. We all have made mistakes. It is important to learn from them and be fiscally responsible. With some hard work, Hubby and I will be debt free in less than 3 years. We are also in the unique position of having a state pension of defined benefits and will be able to retire with full benefits in 5 more years. And as it is a state pension, we have more of a guarantee than most. I have set money aside in 403b (like 401k) but despite my efforts, these have yielded slightly more than or less than a plain vanilla savings account. And since this is what most of America will rely on (plus that tad of SS), this does not bode well. Esp when all the boomers will have to draw their money out of the market at about the same time.

Please PM me if you want, I'll be happy to help you with any specifics.

[donsu]

42. two families to a house

nt

43. How are people going to live?

I have read with interest the many comments on how people are couping with economic issues in their daily lives. I retired in 2004. I had acquired the outrageous sum of $47,000 in a thrift fund. This was the total sum of savings over my 25 years of work. What is our status as of now. Well for one thing we have no debts. No debt on our two 10 year old vehicles, our $23,000 dollar home on a 50 x 100 ft. lot, no debt on the loans we took out to pay for our two daughters college education, and no debts on credit cards. How did we do it? Well we lived within our means. No vacations, no eating out except a couple times a year, no movies, no expensive hobbies. Sound boring. Not really! We enjoyed doing things at home: fishing in the lake below our home; watching movies on T.V.; reading books from the local libraries; riding our bikes in a near-by state park; taking hiking walks and camping out in the zillion state parks within a 3 hour drive of our home. We do own 7 acres of land about 5 miles from our home which was purchased a number of years ago and is debt free with taxes of about $150 a year. With this land we have deemed it incumbent (in the expected coming economic crash of this country) to prepare to move their if necessary as we will be able to plant a large garden and have a couple of acres to grow corn for the multi-fuel stove insert we currently have in our home.

[zippy890]

67. welcome to DU!

You seem to be happy with how you've done - thats great.

maybe part of the problem is indeed living beyond your means. People want it all, the big house, fancy cars, all the latest technology - but they pay the price - they are maxed out on their credit cards and loaded with debt.

When I see these developments of mcmansions - huge houses with 5 bathrooms and 3-car garage, I wonder if we fast-forwarded 10-15 years if they will be abandoned, OR maybe multiple families living in them.

This is New England and the cost of heating these monster houses is skyrocketing.

I live in a 3Bedroom cape, hubby is a builder and put the second floor on himself and knows a lot about insulating and energy efficiency, and its a really tight house, but even our heating bill has almost double just from last year.

again, Wecome, and hope you multi-fuel stove is keeping you warm!
:hi:

[sendero]

104. I place ..

.... about equal blame on two factors for the ongoing crunch that is about to worsen significantly.

1) Americans DO live beyond their means. Folks have gotten WAY TOO COMFORTABLE with debt, for anything and everything. Most of that debt is paid off at rates that would have sent the lender to prison for usury not that long ago. THERE IS NO REASON TO BORROW MONEY FOR ANYTHING EXCEPT A HOUSE.

2) We have a government that actively dislikes poor people and erroneously assumes that ALL OF THEM are deadbeats. That just isn't true, but the Republicans have been selling this idea for so long that it is an article of faith among the younger generation.

[FearofFutility]

46. The Bush Administration has it all figured out

What do you think the detention camps are for? A new spin on commune living.

[Pachamama]

83. Oh yes, and Barbara Bush will suggest its an improvement from before, so

why complain when your in a Detention Center? :eyes:

:sarcasm:

[tenshi816]

100. Yes, it will all

"work out very well" for everybody, won't it?

Oh, lordy, I loathe that woman.

[FearofFutility]

106. I can hear her now

when informed of the mass suffering. "Let them eat shit!"

[Jim Warren]

47. curious about one thing

With a house or car I understand they might pull them out from under you, but why do people worry so much about credit card or similar debt?

Ya can't get blood from a stone?

[FearofFutility]

49. Well, if you ruin your credit by not paying debt

you will have a difficult time getting a loan for a house or car and when you do get a loan, you will have to pay a lot more for that house or car due to high interest rates. Personally, I'm a believer in paying what I owe.

[Jim Warren]

52. Right then.....

but of course you're talking about things continuing on as they have been, business as usual kind of thing. Guess I getting more the feeling of crap hitting fan mode, hence civility becoming a bit, ah, shall we say......strained.

[FearofFutility]

55. Oh

In that case, I guess my debt would be the last thing I'd worry about.

I just reread your first post and see that I missed your point entirely! You have to excuse me. I work night turn and have only slept 4 hours. I probably shouldn't be posting. :hide:

[Plausible]

48. I recall reading about

a man with cancer who couldnt afford medical care so he robbed a place so he could be put into prison so he could get medical care.

Maybe that will be the answer. Baby boomer gangs.

[pitohui]

68. won't work for women prisoners

i have read of cases of women prisoners being denied treatment for breast cancer

i do not understand the huge differences in the quality of services offered to male as opposed to female prisoners

in my state angola prison is famous for what it offers to the male prisoners, it is not just a farm, it has the rodeo, its own publishing shop, one of my friends said they had great meetings for aa and narcotics anonymous to help him get away from his addictions, he felt it really gave him an opportunity to change his life

yet you never hear anything positive said abt the women's prison

i guess i'm getting a bit off-topic but i would not advise any woman to try this tactic in hopes of getting care because i don't believe she would get any

[DenaliDemocrat]

58. I make a good salary and I am barely making it

Housing here is expensive. I have a modest 1800 square foot house - mortage is $800. I have one car payment (the other is paid off) for $300. Neither car was purchased new, but were decent used cars. One has 95,000 on it, the other a little under $50,000.

I have three kids, so food costs are high. I hunt and fish for most of our meat so that helps, but my grocery bill is still very expensive. Utilities run $350.

Insurance runs me about $350 per month.

Gas runs me about $150/month, since I only 8 miles from work.

I have satellite tv, no credit card payments, and do put $400 per month in my 401K.

Needless to say, there is nothing left after paying the bills. With three kids the cost of daycare is too much, so my wife does not work. We have never had a ton of disposable income left, but things are getting much worse.

Three years ago we always had a little money left at the end of the month for a few extras -- maybe go see a movie with the kids, or go out to dinner. Now there is nothing left, which really sucks. You go to college, get good grades, get an entry-level job, go to graduate school on your off time to get ahead, finally get that good job, only to see that despite doing everything "right", I still live paycheck to paycheck. LIke I said, we never had a lot of money left, but we had a little left to do some fun things. Now, I work and and nothing else.

So much for the American Dream.

[SupplyConcerns]

62. I'm not going to bother with graduate school

Or with trying to climb the corporate ladder. With the economy so debased, my plan after college is to live in an inexpensive and sustainable community (i.e. Oberlin, OH), and to stay the hell out of suburban sprawl, with all its hidden costs. I'll try to save by not needing to own a car, etc. I'll just priotize doing what I want to do -playing music.

[DenaliDemocrat]

72. I am no corporate guy

I am a scientist and went from a field tech, to lab tech, to finally a guy who creates the plans.


Graduate school was almost ten years ago....I could never afford to do it today.

[SupplyConcerns]

73. point taken

No offense with the corporate statement! That applies mostly to contemporaries of mine who think that entering into a bankrupt system (i.e. marketing, even certain areas of law) with no real purpose in mind, either personal or social, beyond it seeming like the safe road to success. I think they're going to get burned. Especially if they buy a place in the suburbs. I should agknowledge that I'm a believer that global peak oil will happen pretty soon, so my assesment of the future is more pessimistic than just seeing how hollowed out our economy and financial system are.

[bobbieinok]

77. recent book StrappedWhy America's 20- and 30-Somethings Can't Get Ahea

Ahead

http://www.commondreams.org/cgi-bin/newsprint.cgi?file=/news2006/0117-22.htm

I heard the author interviewed on DRehm's show. She said one of her goals in writing the book is to wake up the younger generation to the fact most of their problems are not their 'fault', that indeed the 'personal is political.'

There were horrible stories people called in--doing everything 'right' and can't get ahead. And then the people who called who claimed it was all b/c no one planned or saved and wanted everything now. Author made it very clear she totally disagreed with this latter view.

Rehm kept trying to say that young families with no health insurance and young children just hadn't found the right local agencies to help. She seemed unable to believe things are as bad as many of the callers said.

[Ksec]

60. It is scary

The savings rate in the US is at an all time low while the powers that be keep telling us how great the economy is. I would hate to see the results of a "bad economy"

Its time to realize we are just pawns in a bigger picture . A few ultra wealthy people are pulling the strings and you and I aint part of their goal. The outsourcing to slave labor countries is one idea of theres thats killing the US middle class turning it into a low wage class. Very low wage. Ive seen it here. It happened here way before it happened in the rest of this country and all I saw were people just turning their heads away, ignoring us. The steel and manufacturing base are gone. We no longer make anything in America. We are buyers of foreign cars, TVs Stereos, clothes etc and then we wonder why our economy is stumbling along . Meanwhile the riches keep getting richer and Americans can no longer buy new cars, which is why Ford and GM are tanking. Foreigners dont buy Fords, we buy Toyotas though.

[Deja Q]

61. I think we're supposed to die.

Or hadn't you figured it out by now?

All the news articles have one thing in common: "peak oil".

And when a society runs out of resources, it's going to revert to base animalism. Dog eat dog (well, even more dog eat dogginess). Kill or be killed.

Lotsa DUers are against the idea of tribalism.

But that's what's going on right now.

Except the current tribalism is by, of, and for the large corporation.

And to those wanting to leave: Be sure the country you want to invade wants to accept yourself. They have to take care of their own first, you see... India sure as hell isn't accepting Americans...

I've accepted what's to come. Hell, my body continues to weaken on me anyway. So even if I wanted to (and I don't), I'm not fighting the inevitable. I'm going to enjoy life while I can. :think: And maybe the rest of us ought to too.

[SupplyConcerns]

74. The 21st century in two words: "Peak Oil"

It's nice to see that more people are aware of this. I've put in some energies in educating people about PO and how to best prepare and mitigate it. A friend and I are teaching a class at Oberlin College's Experimental College called "Peak Oil: Crisis and Catalyst for a Sustainable Future".

[Angry Girl]

63. Wow, you own a house and have health insurance?

Consider yourself lucky.

[DenaliDemocrat]

80. I know that I am better off than a lot of people

like I said, I make a very decent wage. I wonder how those who do not make a good salary are making it, because I am barely doing it

[pitohui]

66. many baby boomers have huge home equity in their homes

there will be two classes in this country, you are wise to live frugally in order to pay off your home, the person who has a paid-off home in retirement can get a reverse mortgage or sell the house outright and have some income to supplement their social security even if they never had a pension as most baby boomers and younger do not unless in public service

a baby boomer who worked all her life in california, then retired, and sold her home, will have a huge one-time tax-free gain which she can use in retirement to live elsewhere housing is cheap, be it kansas or ecuador, some people's homes in california and new jersey etc. have gained hundreds of thousands occasionally even a million dollars in value and those people will be fine even tho they may have struggled when younger, because when they no longer have to be near their jobs they can move to a cheap area where there are no jobs

the boomers who were renters of course will pay rent forever which means instead of getting income from their housing they will forever be paying outgo for their housing, i think many of them will die from such causes as not buying medicine, having the electricity cut off in a cold winter or hot summer, etc. hell many old folk who were the poorest of the poor die like that right now

so the answer to how do they live? is that they won't

i worry when i see otherwise sensible people making the argument for renting


on edit -- i see on reading the entire thread that your location in the midwest missed the housing boom but just having a paid-off home, so that you do not have to pay rent when you are old, will make a difference, and after age 70, you can likely get a small income from a reverse mortgage, you won't have the huge gain a coastal californian might have but it's better than a sharp stick in the eye

[ninkasi]

75. I think we might see a return to extended families living together

In our family, for instance, there have been many instances where one member was a little down on their luck, or had lost a job, and had to live with relatives for awhile. No member of our family would ever be homeless. My daughter and son-in-law just assume that if I were widowed, I would come live with them, even if I could afford to live on my own.

I also have two nieces who have said I would be welcome with them. I have a dear cousin who says she'll have to work til she drops dead, but if her husband passed away, she knows she would always have a home with us. There is no question of her having no place to live.

Maybe some families don't get along to the same degree, but in our family, most of us have few friends who are NOT family, to one degree or another. They might be 2nd or 3rd cousins, but because we're close, we really have never had as much time to form many other friendships, because family get-togethers keep us pretty busy.

I know this isn't a solution for everybody, but since society is changing, the family structure which was common before might become more common again. I'm retired, and know that if I were alone, I would be welcome with any of my children; there are, in some cases, mutual benefits of couples with school age children having an aunt or grandmother live in, and being able to save on the costs of child care. Certainly this wouldn't always work out, but sometimes it could, and might be a way to mitigate some of the financial devastation the Republicans have inflicted on average Americans.

[Danascot]

79. My bumpersticker is old and faded

but it's still readable: "Eat the Rich" That's my plan and I'm sticking to it.

[madokie]

85. What's the proper method, throw'em directly on the fire, boil'em live

How do you get rid of the bitterness and the stench to make'em palatable, do we have to use bbq sause, or just 'sause' or will worchestershire work?

[BeHereNow]

82. FINALLY- A POST THAT MATTERS!

Thank you.
This is a discussion which matters.
The reality is:
WE, the American people, have been
bought and sold by our representatives.
WE, not those we trusted to act in our interest,
have been sacrificed to the multi national corporations.
WE are SO screwed and it is only going to get worse
for US, as a people, before it gets MUCH worse
for us, as WE the people.
The people who sold us?
They will be just fine.
As a matter of fact, they are more wealthy
than any lawmakers in the history of this
country. Naturally, that is because they
were protecting OUR "interests" as our "elected" representatives.
LOL! My ASS they were.
Thank you OP for addressing REALITY.
BHN

[Vinca]

91. We're within a few years or "retirement," but it's not going to happen.

Fortunately, I've never wanted to spend days on a golf course and don't care much for travel anymore. We'll keep working, doing something, until we drop.

[kevinbgoode]

92. And I'm worried as well. . .

I went back to school in middle years to get an advanced degree, after losing most assets at the end of a long same-sex relationship...of course he wanted everything....lol.

So now I'm almost finished, in more debt than I thought imaginable, and I don't own a home. . .but yet still try to be optimistic about being able to work another 20 years, get a nice small place. . .or maybe just a trailer with 100 pink yard flamingoes around it and travel whenever I can save my pennies. . .

As for retirement, I don't think the Republican generation intends to let anyone retire - not until they have all their "immoral" parents' assets. . .

[Clara T]

96. 37 million poor hidden in the land of plenty

37 million poor hidden in the land of plenty

Americans have always believed that hard work will bring rewards, but vast numbers now cannot meet their bills even with two or three jobs. More than one in 10 citizens live below the poverty line, and the gap between the haves and have-nots is widening

Paul Harris in Kentucky
Sunday February 19, 2006
The Observer


The flickering television in Candy Lumpkins's trailer blared out The Bold and the Beautiful. It was a fantasy daytime soap vision of American life with little relevance to the reality of this impoverished corner of Kentucky.

The Lumpkins live at the definition of the back of beyond, in a hollow at the top of a valley at the end of a long and muddy dirt road. It is strewn with litter. Packs of stray dogs prowl around, barking at strangers. There is no telephone and since their pump broke two weeks ago Candy has collected water from nearby springs. Oblivious to it all, her five-year-old daughter Amy runs barefoot on a wooden porch frozen by a midwinter chill.

It is a vision of deep and abiding poverty. Yet the Lumpkins are not alone in their plight. They are just the negative side of the American equation. America does have vast, wealthy suburbs, huge shopping malls and a busy middle class, but it also has vast numbers of poor, struggling to make it in a low-wage economy with minimal government help. A shocking 37 million Americans live in poverty. That is 12.7 per cent of the population - the highest percentage in the developed world. They are found from the hills of Kentucky to Detroit's streets, from the Deep South of Louisiana to the heartland of Oklahoma. Each year since 2001 their number has grown.

Under President George W Bush an extra 5.4 million have slipped below the poverty line. Yet they are not a story of the unemployed or the destitute. Most have jobs. Many have two. Amos Lumpkins has work and his children go to school. But the economy, stripped of worker benefits like healthcare, is having trouble providing good wages.
http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1712965,00.html

[Faux pas]

101. I feel for you leftyladyfrommo. I'm in the same boat and I have

few expenses and and even fewer assets. This was not my plan for my 'golden years' that are quickly turning to rust. I agree with those here who have told you to dump the car. Older cars cost a lot less to insure, and the trade off between maintenance on an older car sure wouldn't cost you $360 a month. Do you really need a cell phone? Is it less expensive than a land line? Not being accusatory, just wondering. Good Luck!

[Ksec]

105. A tip

Buy American made goods if you can find any. Every time you buy a foreign car or shop at WalMart you put another nail in the coffin of your country and its people.

Until we start using our dollars intelligently, and realize we hold the power with our numbers and our billions of dollars of buying power, we will continue this downward spiral. Until we start making our corporate world be responsible, we will continue down this road of ruin. Until we vote for the right people itll keep going.

You and I hold all the power, we just need to unite and learn how to weild the tremendous power we own.

For starters buy only US made goods when you can. Refuse to buy goods made in slave labor countries until these countries start treating their people right and pay living wages. Once that happens we can compete on a level playing feild.

[earth mom]

107. This is a great thread!

As BHN stated upthread, this is the topic that matters!

Make no mistake. We are being systematically oppressed by these so called Christians in office who believe that God will forgive them their sins of greed/avarice. In their view, "it's all good". I have no doubt that these pseudo Christians are trying to weaken and oppress as many people as possible so that the majority of people will have little energy or resources to rise up and fight them. Will they use the camps for dissenters, or will they continue to use them as they are using them now-as a psychological weapon? :scared:

This thread speaks to me because I well know that what it's like to live on the edge, paycheck to paycheck, with very little if any of the good things in life, with peace of mind and financial security at the top of that list.

My husband and I made the choice and sacrifice to be a one income family several years ago for the well being of our child. However, our situation has been made extremely more difficult because wages have not kept up with the cost of living. The way I figure it, we are pretty much living on the same wages that we did 10+ years ago.

Oh sure, I know how to cut corners and actually enjoy shopping thrift stores and garage sales. But what gets to me is doing without real necessities and not knowing when or if they can EVER be fixed or replaced. Seems like we continually find our selves making do in new and not always fun ways. This winter, our electrical heating system bit the dust and the replacement cost is several thousand dollars, which is simply impossible for us to come up with at this time since we have no savings and very little if any "disposable income". Luckily for us, this house has a wood stove, which we will have to make do with for as long as necessary.

That being said, I'm sure people have it worse than we do, since after all, we do have a roof over our heads which our family does not take for granted. I fear the future because I really don't see it getting any better from the reading I'm doing around DU and elsewhere. At this point, it's difficult to know if my husband and I should continue in the direction we are heading or not. The social security that we have paid a combined total of 50 years into could very well be history and not only that, we do not know for sure that the current pension my husband is working towards will be there either in 18 years when he turns 65.

I ask myself every day if it time to sell the house and get out of the country...

I just can't shake the feeling that we are peering into the abyss... :scared:

[lonestarnot]

109. Well if we take up a collection and buy our own 6 ports that are up for

sale to the highest bidder, we could do a little racketeering of our own! Just kidding about the racketeering part, but I like the idea of We The People owning the security on these 6 ports!

[anarch]

110. beats me...I've got about $50 to feed two people and a dog for 3 weeks

And I work full time for a relatively "good" wage, too. It's just that we went from a two-income to a one-income household a while back, and have had no luck replacing that second income, despite all our best efforts.

I've assumed for a while that I'd just work until I die, but now I'm wondering how much longer I'll be able to survive at all. I'm home sick today and can't afford to go to the doctor, even with my insurance. Can't afford the recently increased co-pay.

Oh well...if a happy man is one who does not fear death, then I'm a pretty happy guy indeed. It'll be a relief.