I was just thinking about this tonight. Clinton valued human life MUCH

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

more than the shrub. American lives, and the lives of others.

He held them as precious.

Whether it was more because he cared about people, or was sensitive to the political repercussions of shedding the blood of Americans and others, it matters not (I personally think it was more the former).

He took care to conserve human life.

And here, this so called "conservative" man has squandered lives beyond number, and will continue to do so, as if they were nothing.

I was in the military during the Clinton years. At that time, I personally didn't think Clinton made great use of the military, using them more as a sort of armed Peace Corps for things like maintaining refugee camps of Cubans and Haitians (at Guantanamo-unfortunately this gave shrubco the idea of extending this warehousing of people in the concentration camp/gulag direction), and this was frustrating to me at times. As admirable as the Peace Corps function might be, it's not the primary reason for the existence of a military. It's a war fighting machine. I remember when it seemed we were on the brink of invading Haiti, and there seemed to be a lot of vacillation on whether to do that. If anyone remembers this was the whole controversy involving Randall Robinson, mediated by Carter... It was frustrating, but again, there wasn't needless bloodshed, looking back at it.

I remember thinking to myself, it's not great for the morale of a war machine to be primarily used in such a way. Now I think, what must be the morale of some soldier, stop lossed and being sent to his third tour in Iraq, while the new millenium version of the shrub drinks himself into the gutter at a frat party.

I still think it's true Clinton didn't have the best or most thorough understanding of the military and its culture, but at least he didn't ABUSE and ill use us like his successor, and send us in an endless series of dangerous deployments and stop losses so as to avoid drafting his wealthy friends.

The flaws I saw in Clinton's oversight of the military are as nothing compared to the situation we see now.

I just had this thought driving home from the store. How Clinton took care to preserve lives, not just through avoiding frivolous military action, but even evidenced by other things like him coming home early from the international meeting (?with the Chinese?) to monitor hurricane events.

We should point out to Republican voting acquaintances that withdrawing from a disastrous encounter can be, but is not necessarily a wrong or imprudent thing to do, and point out that one of THEIR heroes, Ronald Reagan, did just this after the bombing of the Marines in Lebanon. It is a weakness to continue to squander enormous human and economic resources and tie them down in a disastrous and costly war, leaving the men, materiel, and money unavailable for disasters on our very own doorstep like Katrina, and to do it primarily for pride and avoiding "loss of face". It's foolish.

There's no greater loss of face than for the richest and most powerful nation in the world to have one of its great cities, known and beloved throughout the world and throughout history, to vanish in floodwaters, its people stranded, dying of hunger, thirst, and disease, eaten by dogs in the street. THAT is a loss of face.

[serryjw]

1. America has had so many loses of face in the last 5 years

Clinton, first and foremost, was raised poor. he understood what it was like.

[applegrove]

2. Clinton had emapthy. Neocons see opportunity & a "stick" in death.

[Psephos]

3. Some good points there, but Somalia takes a lot of wind out of the sail

Haiti, too, was a disaster in perception. I remember the hastily-organized professional protestors trucked down to the dock, where they jockeyed for position in front of CNN's camera. CNN was on in the situation room at the White House, and immediately Clinton's political (not military) advisors started fretting about the image of Goliath's ships coming to threaten David's port. Soon we were watching CNN's long shot of the US warships tucking tail and turning around.

Meanwhile, Somalia was more than a disaster in perception. It was a disaster in reality, too. Our soldiers died because it had been judged politically unpalatable to give them the vehicles and equipment they actually needed to protect themselves for the mission with which they were tasked. (Which makes what has happened in Iraq even more infuriating.)

OBL specifically mentioned Somalia and Haiti as evidence that America had no stomach for conflict, and could be pushed around by anyone who understood how to manipulate perception via the news. Video is the new WMD of the battlefield.

As anyone who's been in a fight at a bar knows, perceptions of weakness invite more, not less, violence.

Excellent point, btw, about Reagan's response to the carnage in Lebanon.

Peace.

[Wilms]

4. I hear you, but the Iraqi sanctions and it's effect children is disturbing

[cynatnite]

5. Under Clinton the world changed for the better...

When peace became more prevelant and people were finding better ways to resolve conflict the military had to adjust to that. How they operated, their size, deployments, etc had to change to fit their changing role.

The repukes wanted a huge military even though realistically speaking, it just wasn't necessary at that time.

While I'm not sure if Clinton really understood the military life and culture, he had the best working with him, too. This was at a time when Colin Powell was highly respected and beloved by the military as a whole. I thought he was one of the finest generals this country ever had...along with Schwartzkopf (sp?).

I thought Clinton handled our military fairly well. I wish he hadn't put in that awful 'don't ask, don't tell' policy. I think it's done a lot of harm. He should have said gays are allowed to serve openly in the military and that's it.

I served toward the end of Reagan's time and I can guarantee you most everyone I knew worshipped the ground that man walked on. Daddy bush was liked, but he didn't command the respect that Reagan did from what I saw.

The one thing I do believe is that jr. has done far worse to our military than any other president. Sending them off to war unprepared was in itself criminal. Every death from that moment on, whether it's civilian or military, I put at his feet.

One of my drill sergeants and I had a talk about war. He's been in combat so I took what he said to heart. I've never forgotten it. No soldier worth their salt wants war. The best ones abhor it.

[oasis]

6. The world recognized Clinton as a force for good. They see Bush as the

the extreme opposite.