Where would DU be today if Admins had permitted freepers to post?

[kentuck]

Yes, this is a board for "progressives". But, more than that, it is a place for honesty and truth, without the lies and distortions of right-wingers like Limbaugh, Hannity, or O'Reilly. It really doesn't matter to me if we were Democratic leaning or Republican leaning so long as we lean to an accurate depiction of reality. I have always considered DU to be the most honest, brutally so at times, site on the web. I can't help it that the truth just happens to be more "liberal".. :)

[benburch]

1. I know a few progressive boards where they allowed freeptards to post.

They turned into sewers, and the smell drove off the "real" progressives.

[kentuck]

2. I think that was the best decision that Skinner and the guys made...

to not permit the muddying of the issues by the addled right-wingers...

[cynatnite]

32. I used to think it would make for good debate....

until I went to another board where both frequented and it's worse than talking to a brick wall. They blame everything on Clinton, want to abolish welfare, avid pro-bush and no matter how much truth is shoved in their face, they won't change their position at all. They won't even consider it.

I agree, kentuck. This board should remain freeper free.

[Domitan]

25. The opposite has happened here

www.phlogredux.org

It's a mostly unmoderated site that allows for total freedom of speech. In the mid 1990's, it was the top discussion website. Hordes of liberals and conservatives, religionists and atheists, Elvis fans and punk rockers...all battling it out. Now the conservatives are the ones who have slipped away, not the secular left.

[benburch]

26. And that's great for them...

But, personally, I'm not interested is discussing ANYTHING with the Freeptards. Unless it might be what they want on their...

http://www.homegrocer.com.nyud.net:8090/images/products/tombstone-supreme.gif

[Orangepeel]

31. great! then that's a good place for lefties who want to do battle to go

there is enough disagreement and arguments on the left to keep me sharp and entertained. DU is my oasis away from right wing battles. I get enough of that in the real world.

[Hubert Flottz]

3. They ran the DNC's FreeDem board off the "internets" in 2001!

We had some major battles with the fools on FreeDem! They came in packs like they try to come here!

[Luminous Animal]

4. Intact and maybe stronger.

The old Michael Moore Bulletin Board had very little rules and a strong progressive community. Every now and again the board was attacked by gun nuts and/or racists. The community fought back bravely (with no moderation, btw) with facts and humor and the community always won. But, it just wasn't the fight and victory that was important, it was what we learned in the process.

It is a good thing to face the opposition head on.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

5. I wish to thank the mods

who take the time every day to monitor posts and who follow up on "alert" buttons. This is, indeed, a place for open discussion within the rules of respect for each other and for progressive/Democratic principles and ideals. I know that I personally would have been driven away from this board as I have from "open" boards by plain intolerance and hatred if it weren't for these rules. The mods let it get heated and lively here, but they keep everyone to the rules, and that's why so many have come here to express their ideas and learn from others.

Thanks Skinner and the Mods! (Hey, sounds like the name for a neat rock group!)

[Botany]

15. Skinner and the Mods

[kentuck]

16. They look incredibly like Herman and hte Hermits...

:)

[Botany]

51. Skinner the VIII?

I'm Skinner the eighth I am
Skinner the eighth I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She's been married seven times before
And every one was an Skinner (Skinner)
She wouldn't have a Willy or a Sam (no Sam)
I'm her eighth old man, I'm Skinner
Skinner the eighth I am

S -K-I-N-N-E-R
Skinner (Skinner)
Skinner (Skinner)
Skinner the eighth I am, I am
Skinner the eighth I am

Yeah!

[lynch03]

6. I thought it'd be interesting to establish a subforum allowing both sides

to go at it.

maybe make that a seperate registration form , they'd only be allowed to post in that one sub forum.

[Hubert Flottz]

13. We do have such a thing!

It's called Freak Repugnant or something like that! Make sure you've had all your shots before you go there though.

[Marie26]

23. Me too

It's good that this board is limited to "Democrats", but it'd be kind of cool to have a forum where DUers & Freepers could just go at it & debate each other. I think both sides could learn a lot.

[truth2power]

43. Freepers don't debate. eom

[gulliver]

60. Or allow them in a case-by-case basis.

I.e., don't let the nitwits in, but let in a few of the more intelligent ones.

[IrishBloodEngHeart]

7. If possible, it would be cool to have one forum open to freepers

where we could go engage with them,but thenhave the current boards only open to progressives.

[johnaries]

11. We have a Bush/Conservatives forum. Freepers won't post there.

Freepers are usually scared to debate us outright. They like to be "stealthy". If we had a forum like that, they wouldn't post there.

[johnaries]

8. I think it would be exactly what the FAQ's say it would be:

"If we let conservatives post here, then this discussion forum would be identical to all the other discussion forums on the Internet."

As I was saying to a "newbie" last night, oneof the things that I like about DU is that if you make a statement and don't back it up with a link, you will get called on it.(I had gotten lazy and didn't include one. He asked me for one sort of apologetically. Of course, I told him not to be apologetic, he was right for asking!)

Conservatives rely too much on "I've heard that..." "Some people think..." Some people say..."

DU'ers demand facts and want sources to back up those facts. Even the tin-foil hatters have to supply facts, even though the conclusions are questionable.

So, yes, I agree with you. Without those standards we wouldn't have the level of honesty that we have.

:toast:

[applegrove]

9. Really - there is so much to discuss. I'm glad we don't have to waste

our time fighting off the freepers or the Rovbots. I'm glad we get to discuss issues all day long.


Right wing just wants to obfuscate. They don't believe in the enlightenment. They don't want Americans to be well informed. So they make any board they show up on - into a zoo. And that is the plan.

Thanks to the mods. They don't let us fall into the trap of fighting off liars. They know our time and ideas & beliefs are more important than the GOP does.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

10. If RW trolls were not weeded out, they'd overwhelm the board with noise.

They wouldn't have to make good or successful arguments. By sheer volume of asinine RW posts they could overwhelm the board, dilute any message, and ruin it by driving people away.

I've quit posting on other boards because of unpleasantness such as this, and it would happen here.

[RufusEarl]

17. Why did i come to DU?

this question was ask of me last night, and i finally figured it out. And it's because of all the statements above, it is the only place i can find on the net were i can get thoughtful replies and information without the mud.

Thanks to all of you here at DU, for keeping me sane through these very crazy and bazaar times. My only hope is that i can contribute to this organization, and do my part to help sustain it.

[Botany]

12. It would be DOA

They have a goal to stifle discussion @ all costs ....
Look @ their web site .... call a talk show and tie up time ... no mater how stupid
you conversation or posting keeps the enemy from getting their word out.

If they can talk about "Ted Kennedy & the accident" (BTW I think Kennedy got
away w/ major shit on that one) when the topic is Dick shooting a man in the face
after drinking ..... they consider it a win. Facts don't bother them so letting them in DU
would turn one of the most open forums of real debate and news I have ever found into nothing.

1 or 2 persons alone did that to the guest book @ Bush or Chimp .com.

2 years ago we had people from all over the US, S. America, Poland, Israel, England,
and Australia ..... now it has become dead .... just one person posting under multiple
names ...... and that is their goal ...... dominate access to discussion and they win.

[ScreamingMeemie]

14. Sometimes I ponder on this.

I think sometimes that it would be okay to have rational debate between Left and Right here, BUT it always seems to deteriorate into something less than rational after a few posts. I realy don't thinjk it could be done. We get enough trouble even with the difference of opinions here...think Primary Wars. Lots of times we eat our own even. :)

[philosophie_en_rose]

20. I have mixed feelings, as well.

I do think that there is a lot of diversity of opinion on DU. For the most part, people can debate those issues without the forums falling apart. Realistically, the freepers are mostly comic relief. {See 'cazy' guy}. No real threat to the boards. We're strong enough to crush their fragile little minds.

On the other hand, why waste time with them? They aren't here for debate. They're here to annoy, harass, and pollute. They have their forum and - if they really want to learn - they can do so easily without posting crap.

Plus, the mods are pretty tolerant, in my opinion. It takes a while for non-obvious freepers to be banned. Thus, a polite freeper is highly likely to be able to discuss what they'd like in a rational manner. The status quo allows for diversity, without allowing freepers to make posting inconvenient for others.

[OPERATIONMINDCRIME]

18. It Would Be Filled With Dem Bashing Posts, Threads Declaring Failure,

defeatism left and right, a bunch of we can't can't can't stuff, and a lot of threads started just to cause trouble.

Oh, wait, you were asking what it would be like if they WERE permitted to post? My bad. LOL

[kentuck]

19. Good one !

:) See! That's what I mean by brutally honest...

[GrpCaptMandrake]

21. Ben Burch is correct in his post above

Freeptards turn open fora into sewers and liberals run away like the Yankees at Bull Run.

I take a very, VERY dim view of censorship, so when I took www.headonradio.com live, I opened my message boards to all comers.

The screaming freeptards entered with their vile filth and, with the exception of a few brave, 'gator-hided progressives, the liberals ran away in tears to sit and sing kum-by-yah. Those few tough-skinned liberals hang on, but the freeptards have, indeed, succeeded in making it a sewer. And they didn't do it by discussing, but by slinging ad hominem filth.

So I can well understand the value of excising the morans.

But on a deeper level, until we can stand up and bloody their noses on the "internets," we're going to have a hard time doing it in real time in the real world.


Live, Liberal Talk With A Southern Exposure
www.whiterosesociety.org/Kincaid.html
M-F, 7:06 to 10 p.m. ET

[wryter2000]

27. Bingo

And they didn't do it by discussing, but by slinging ad hominem filth.

What do you do with someone who forwards posts that, among other things, claim that Clarence Thomas was the first AA Supreme Court Justice? Or that commanding a Swift Boat wasn't so dangerous but that the planes *asshat flew over Texas were "widow-makers"? Or that liberals are waging a war on Christmas? Or that evolution couldn't work because randomness couldn't develop a functional species?

I used to try to debate with wingnuts. It got too tiresome. I like DU the way it is.

[Name removed]

28. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wryter2000]

29. Ooops

I don't think we're supposed to mention that place. :evilgrin:

I imagine it's still there. I don't look very often. :scared:

[benburch]

30. Oh yeah, I know they are there because my mole reports to me...

I have a friend who is a Moderator there... And he/she keeps me appraised of the significant details on what happens there.

[wryter2000]

48. No kidding?

There's a mole over there? :rofl: Someone's braver than I am.

[benburch]

50. Didn't start out being a mole.

Intelligent people can change their opinions.

[uppityperson]

36. Yes, was checking it lastnight during the invasion here.Are boards for all

Cross posting and making mocking remarks. Oh well.

There are forums for everyone, and I check them out too. However, it is nice to have a more restricted board like DU to come to also. It is nice to have a place to NOT have to deal with the freeper bs. Anyone who makes a forum can make the rules to suit themselves. There are lots of forums out there, and I really appreciate DU for what it is, the freedoms it give me to communicate with like-minded (more or less) people.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

42. It's not a copycat at all. If it were, it'd have a huge diverse membership

and a huge number of forums on all kinds of topics.

Instead they have a small, core number of shrub worshipping people whose mission is just to read THIS board and make fun of the people.

[benburch]

47. Twenty-five of them do 95% of the posting.

And I have the IP addresses for all of them, so I know when they come and visit here...

:hi:

[wryter2000]

49. How very droll.

Chaaaaaahmed, I'm sure. :evilgrin:

[kentuck]

58. Sorry about that...

I didn't know... :(

[SmokingJacket]

22. I'd have gotten sick of wading through the bullshit and probably

have left the board. Not because I didn't want to hear arguments that challenged me -- I hear those ALL THE TIME -- but because the nice thing about DU is that it's not a Limbaugh echo-chamber...

[Marie26]

34. But it is an echo chamber

So's Free Republic. That's the danger when only a certain point of view is allowed; you're inevitably hearing only half the story. For example, during the leadup to Fitzmas, most of us on DU thought that Fitzgerald would indict half of Bush's Cabinet; over on FR, they thought Fitz would indict Joe Wilson. Both turned out to be wrong. W/o opposing points of view, it's easy for something to be accepted as "The Truth" w/o question. But most people on DU are able to make up their own minds, and demand some proof for postings & that's a good thing.

This site is a great resource, and you can learn a lot here. But there is always that danger of groupthink forming (that exists everywhere). Moderation allows progressives to discuss issues w/o being drowned out by right-wing screamers & that's really helpful. But there is an inevitable down-side, too. It is censorship, and sometimes it can create an echo chamber. So it would be really cool if there was a forum where liberals & conservatives could debate things openly & honestly; but based on what I've seen of most Freepers' activities, that doesn't seem possible. But it might be interesting to try.

[kentuck]

35. In an ideal world...

I would tend to agree with you. But when DU was created, it was because it was not really possible to have that type of civil discussion. Everything seemed to be controlled by the right-wing. But, I do agree with you about the danger of groupthink...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

37. I completely agree

sometimes I feel on DU I have to play a role that I am often not comfortable with, because if I raise a question I might get slammed and then tombstoned. But I do participate on other forums without moderation and we do fine. The idiots don't last long because they can't put together coherent arguments.
Also, the ignore feature eventually plays out so that pretty soon nobody is listening to them.

ON THE OTHER HAND (and you know I always have one) even the teeth gnashing on here, I think, is valuable because sometimes these folks just have to let it rip and express their fears and we have to pick them back up and set them on their feet again. If this forum were completely open t here would not be the freedom to do that. Actually, I sometimes wish the board was password protected.

[SmokingJacket]

39. Yes, in theory it's a great idea -- debate is good.

Maybe I'm too cynical after having real life debates with my Dittohead family. In an ideal world, we'd all listen to each other's opinions, carefully weigh them, and come to a reasoned consensus.

Has that ever happened in family? Um -- NO!

I come to DU so I don't have to have the kind of arguments that I have with them -- and truly: they're a KIND of argument. Freeper/Dittohead arguments are not based on logic and reason and FACT, at all.

I find that the debate within DU is pretty stimulating -- lots of what goes on here is preaching to the converted, of course, but I don't think that "groupthink" is actually a problem.

But hey, a sub-forum wouldn't hurt anyone, if the mods are into it.

[Marie26]

70. I know what you mean

That's why I'm not sure it would really work - it might well dissolve into flames & insults. This would be a Good example: Conservative explains position on free trade (or whatever). Bad example: "LIBRULS SUCK! HAHAHA!" And there'd probably be a lot more of the latter. Still, sometimes it feels like Dem. & Reps. only talk to each other; and it would be good to get a real dialogue sometimes. But the sad part is that maybe we've reached the point in this country where different sides can't talk to each other rationally anymore, & that's sort of sad.

[AmandaRuth]

24. The fact is that the "swift boat" wing of

the repub party would be paying people to post here 24/7. In fact I wouldn't be surprised if there were paid disrupters posting here under long time handles.

[Carni]

33. I don't want those dorks here

OK I admit when I see one I will gleefully pounce and give them a mouthful...
but in all seriousness, I don't want to waste my time reading their blatherings.

They are fun to bat around, but I don't think they should be given a platform to spew their love for their chimperor here at DU.

They can share that crap amongst themselves in "HUGH!!1! SERIES!!" land.

[emdee]

38. At another board I post on....

during the Clinton years, it was filled with both conservatives and liberals. The conservatives really gave us H-E-L-L on every move Clinton made. They called him names and called us names for backing him. The man couldn't chew bubble gum to suit them, nor could Hillary. The 'tone' of the board was straight-forward and blunt, to the point without nonsense.

Well, things changed after Bush was 'elected'. They expected the liberals to walk on eggshells and couldn't believe the 'tone' of the board (which hadn't changed, it was just that their guy was screwing up BIG time).

The result is that most of them are gone. They claim that the mean old liberals ran them away but never -and I mean, never- has anyone come close to the attitude they had up until Jan 2001.

You can't deal with them. I love DU because I can find truth without having to dig through the vicious propaganda and name calling the is the MO of the Right. I tried to ask questions at several right leaning sites and all they ask is "Are you gay?" So, no, I like DU just the way it is - even though I'm not an 'oldie' I'm giving my input.

emdee :)

[Zhade]

40. They do - there are several anti-progressives here.

And this is a board for progressives, not conservatives. PROGRESSIVES.

[The Magistrate]

54. As You Well Know, My Friend

Just because people disagree with you does not make them trolls....

[Zhade]

69. I'm talking about people who openly repudiate progressive politics.

This is a website dedicated to progressive politics. They don't belong here.

Are they trolls? Not strictly, no - but they hang out on a website that is the opposite of their political leanings. That would be fine, except that they also attack progressives and progressive politics - attacks that I am bewildered to see are allowed to stand by the mods.

[Mayberry Machiavelli]

41. Here's the problem: CIVIL debate would be fine. But that doesn't happen.

To TRULY ensure civilized debate, you'd have to have moderation 100 times as intense as it is now. Every thread and post would have to be scrutinized for rules violations, and moderators would have to be meticulous about removing those violating rules.

It's all well and good to say "well you can use the ignore function and hide threads", but when you get to the point where 2/3 to 3/4 of the board traffic is BS you have to filter, the board dies rapidly. And trust me, it gets to that point a LOT quicker than you think.

Anybody who's followed USENET groups has seen this. So many, completely unrelated to politics (sports forums, hobby, whatever) have been completely choked out by angry rabid political spam threads, and many old regulars just leave rather than deal with the unpleasantness.

It doesn't surprise me to read that it's been tried here and failed.

[shanti]

44. i sure wouldn't be posting here

if freepers were allowed to post. it's bad enough on other sites :(

at least on DU, we get some relief and camaraderie.

[elehhhhna]

45. go here & see. annoying...

http://ariannaonline.com/forums/forumdisplay.php?f=5

[Swamp Rat]

46. I like it the way it is.

Even with the few longtime trolls who have survived by flying under the radar... you know I know who y'all are. ;) :D

[stepnw1f]

52. long timers?

PM me with a list.

[Swamp Rat]

56. There are a few, but the moderator probably would prefer we not

actively engage in troll hunting. :)

[The Magistrate]

57. Much Appreciated, Sir!

Thank you, and I hope all is well with you and yours.

[Swamp Rat]

67. I'm surviving...

... making lemonade outta lemons. Thanks for asking.

peace from New Orleans

[The Magistrate]

53. Just A Friendly Note, Sir

Not everyone you disagree with is a troll....

[Swamp Rat]

55. Excellent point!

:)

[marions ghost]

59. Gone

...or just another den of insults and rage

[flaminbats]

61. freepers, trolls, and moles..ohhh my!

when I first joined DU..with nearly every post I dared to make, I was attacked as another newbie freeper. I was shocked to find out that free republic was nothing more than the neocon equivalent of DU. I began reading some of the posts at free republic...except that wasn't a forum, it was online cannibalism!!

After taking a long break from forums, I came back. Thisgoaround I spent more of my available time reading, and less of that time posting my opinions. That is when posting on DU really became worthwhile, because people who put the most thought into what they post are most likely to read and think about what I post.

Whether you are a liberal or conservative at DU..newbie or an original posters, ultimately you will be called a freeper. Calling another Democrat a freeper is no different than calling Kennedy a commie or Carter a killer. Time resolves all disputes.

[benburch]

62. Amen on that.

Problem is that when our friends on that other site do "attack runs" they present as newbies here...

Makes people jumpy.

And I'm glad you toughed it out and stuck around!

[Stephanie]

63. wow you nailed that friend

that's the truth

[Ksec]

64. Check out Huffington Post for how freepers ruin a board.

[benburch]

66. Yeah, that is a sad example.

Ms. Huffington still thinks that others of her ilk can be persuaded to come over to the light. She hasn't realized yet that she persuaded Herself.

[benburch]

65. One more point about this...

Sometimes Conservatives come around.

Doesn't mean that they stop being Conservative in most things, but they start figuring out the ways they have been lied to by the GOP and how their interests, and those of the nation are not being served by the current incarnation of the GOP. My mole buddy mentioned above is just such a person.

But they are not going to be convinced by debate on a forum like this one. They will *only* come in here looking to pick a fight or score some points with their buddies back at Troll Central, and they really aren't even considering any of the words you write here no matter how true and no matter how urgent they may be. When they come here, their minds are already closed to anything we here have to say.

If they become convinced to change their ways, it is because they have convinced themselves though their own intellect and internal sense of decency. No argument from one on our side will ever do that for them.

So, that is the biggest reason why they don't belong here, and never should; It is pointless.

[NMMNG]

68. It would be a cesspool

Freepers don't engage in debate, they blather talking points, make ad-hominem attacks, spout the Bible as "evidence", turn the discussion to other people to try to "take the heat off" their pets (Boosh lied? Well what about when Clinton lied?), etc. Logic and facts mean nothing to them.

They don't accept other viewpoints or ideas as valid, only theirs. If you are not like them, you are evil, unholy, sinful or some other form of bad/wrong.



I've been on boards that have a mix of liberals and conservatives, and got weary of the constant fighting and hatefulness. That's why I was so glad I found DU.