question about the Duggar family & 17 children.....does the Duggar family.

[MnFats]

....receive any gov't assistance?
....I mean ANYTHING from the government? If so, I charge hypocrisy. Not that they'd include anything about a five-dollar word like hypocrisy in their fundy homeschooling lessons....

[philosophie_en_rose]

1. I don't think so.

They seem to rely on the kindness of neighbors, but I think I read that they pay for everything in cash.

[SeattleGirl]

2. The do not get any money from the government

When the parents first married, the both worked several jobs and paid off all debt. They pretty much pay cash for everything, and are building their own, larger home. I know a lot of people look down on them, because all the kids they have, or because they are fundies, or because of both. I don't. While there is no way in hell I would have wanted 17 children, I don't feel it's my place to judge them. They take care of themselves, they are responsible parents, they are teaching their children to be responsible, and they aren't harming anyone. I actually rather admire them, because they made a choice to have all these children, and they have taken responsibility for taking care of them.

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

3. That's right

Now if he had all the boys in camo and was building his own fundy army, I'd say we had a right to be worried. But since he doesn't, I just say live and let live. Really having this many kids was common in the 1800s-only difference is that back then, a lot of them, often over half, died of disease before they reached maturity.

[Matariki]

8. The difference being the world population was about 1 billion in 1800

and is now over 6 billion and growing exponentially. And along with this rapid growth is increased pollution and decreased resources, both for humans and every other species on the planet.

I don't see how anyone can think that 17 children is a)harmless & b)nobody else's business.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

27. This link might make you feel better

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Natural_population_decrease

We had a speaker at our school from MIT who said that population growth is no longer an environmental problem. In his opinion, global climate change trumped it.

[BeyondThePale]

5. I have to respectfully disagree SG...

First of all, I believe that these are all their biological kids, right?

I'm sorry, I think that this is selfish and piggish behavior. I have two kids and I struggle to have as much quality time with them as I would like. It seems to me to be a case of raging narcissism on M & D's part. Besides, the world is a wee bit on the crowded side. What gives them the right to bring in that many people. Again, I think that this is pure selfishness and entitlement.

I realize that there are many people with only one or two children who are terrible parents and many people with large families who are great parents--but that is a completely separate issue and should not be confounded with the basic question of do people have the right to bring that many children into our non-agrarian, post-industrial world.

Ok, I'm done

[Poppyseedman]

10. I think that is a door you don't want to open

What gives them the right to bring in that many people...........the basic question of do people have the right to bring that many children into our non-agrarian, post-industrial world.

If they are not a burden to our society in any way, who are we to decide what is the right number of children to have ?

That begs the question, if we should be able to decide, how many can bad parents have?

[SeattleGirl]

11. I don't think the Duggar's see it as selfish behavior

They are deeply religious, and believe that they are following the will of God, to have as many children as God deems they should. Now, that kind of belief is more than a tad scary to me (and Assemblies-of-God-think is really freakin' scary to me), but nevertheless, it is their belief.

As to your question, what gives them the right to bring in that many people, well, here we start getting into a rather touchy area: individual rights. Will I don't dispute your point that the world is overcrowded, I back away from wanting anyone to be able to tell another how many children they can have. I think I would take issue with the number of children this family has if they were not as responsible for them as they are.

Anyway, it's an interesting issue, isn't it? :hi:

[mzteris]

16. I think she's addicted to

"being pregnant" . . .

it's not uncommon.

Besides, how good of a "mom" CAN she be to that many children? There are only so many waking hours in a day. Do the math.

Nope. The older ones are raising the younger ones. And yeah, society used to HAVE to function that way, it doesn't anymore. Just because that's the way we did it in the "good old days" doesn't mean they were really good old ways, ya know?

And IMHO - if they really and truly want to "raise" that many kids, they should adopt.

[Ecumenist]

24. Exactly. Mzteris...

The children are raising the other children. That's only way they're doing it, trust me.

[SharonAnn]

42. Yes, I'm the oldest of 8 and that's what happens.

[tenshi816]

60. My mother was 1 of 9 children

and spent her life looking after her siblings. She left home at 17 to get away from it.

It's no coincidence that I'm an only child.

[Triana]

51. they should adopt...

...and walk their talk. Fundies hate abortion and want all these women to put their kids up for adoption. They need to do their part, then by adopting as many as they can.

[mzteris]

66. I've rarely met

an "anti-choice" person who has adopted. The adoptive parents I know - are all pro-choice. . . go figure.

[Yupster]

67. I've seen the opposite

I go to a church which is pretty middle of the road, maybe slightly to the left. There are all kinds in the church. Makes for interesting Sunday School classes and I have friends on every side.

It seems that every fundie family in the church has adopted kids. I've never seen so many of them in a place and it is way out of proportion to their numbers. In this church there's just no doubt. The fundie members adopt at a much, much higher rate than the more liberal member. There's no comparison.

Many of the adoptees are from other countries. Rumania seems to be a place of choice though there are some from India and all different places.

I guess it just depends on where you are.

[mzteris]

70. well - at least

they're adopting. Good.

Now, do you know WHY they adopt "overseas"? They'll give you all sorts of BS reasons - but the REAL ONE IS - they don't want non-white children (though Chinese girls are okay and recently Latin American babies are becoming popular - but no - you know . . . :banghead:)

[Ecumenist]

80. Exactly and that's also why there are so many black children in...

the foster care system. They're unwated and considered undesirable.

[hedgehog]

102. Please explain why I have two adopted black nieces.

Fundies and Republicans aren't the only ones with prejudices and blind spots.

[mzteris]

109. They aren't bigots?

edited in toto

[Ecumenist]

111. Mzteris, I didn't say nor imply that

AS a matter of fact I AM BLACK and I know there is a high desire for white newborns ot infants but if there is a child available who is black or of mixed descent, they're too often overlooked AND the fact that many black social workers and the powers that be try their damndest to prevent adoptions between whites and blacks.

[mzteris]

112. um - you addressed to me, but replied to someone else . . .

so I'm not sure if you're really addressing me or the other person.


But you're right that many social workers - black and white - have tired to prevent adoptions between whites and blacks. There was some attempt to "gently dissuade" us from adopting our son.
Others also think it's "wrong", The Friends of Black Children comes to mind. They're a society that encourages adoption of black children by black families and discourages cross-racial adoption.

Until during the Clinton administration when it was made illegal to do so, cross-racial FOSTERING wasn't really done in some places. (My state for one.) I was turned down in 1994 as a potential foster mom because they didn't "need any more white foster homes" . . . thankfully when I called back in 1998 - they'd changed their tune!

[Ecumenist]

113. I'm sorry, I thought you were referring to me, mea culpa!!

:blush: I hate it that these people, (friends of black children et al) claim to care but do their level best to let these children hang in the wind. My husband is white and we do't care what colour someone is, love is love and I applaud you for taking take of, protecting and loving a child who needed someone. God bless you, irregardless of colour. :applause:

[Yupster]

115. I have talked to some about why

they go overseas and it seems the biggest reason is that they have a fear with domestic adoptions that the mother or father may reenter the picture at some unknown point in the future. Adopt from a Rumanian orphanage and you're pretty sure you won't have custody battles five years down the road.

[Ecumenist]

79. That's not their modus operandi neither is it there viewpoint...

They believe in reproducing for what ever arcane religious reason they believe in.

[Katherine Brengle]

52. I have to agree, although...

on the other hand, this is a free country and as citizens of a free country, we have the right to do as we please as long as it is not against the law (which is basically fair, although not entirely of course).

But I have one child, and it is a struggle every day to get mundane things done, get my work done, and spend time enjoying her and teaching her things.

I don't know who these people are, but do they live on a farm or something? That might explain it...

(BTW, I think the mother must be absolutely insane, lol.)

[Ecumenist]

81. As far as I know, they aren't on a farm, Katherine.

[Ecumenist]

7. I think that they need to start thinking about the mom's health.....

It's NOT good to have that many children and so close together as well. I'm surprised that she has teeth. Frankly, I think that she should change her name to Lassie. I understand that people have to be able to make choices BUT there is a limit, Seattle. I just wonder what happens in the private moments with the children. I know that things aren't as hunky dory as they portray on television. I knew a large family when I was a little girl and the things that the kids underwent, having to care for younger siblings, etc. Many of these children, upon reaching adulthood, refused to have children just for that reason.

[SeattleGirl]

12. I agree with the issue of the mother's health

I read once where it takes about two years for a woman's body to fully recover from childbirth, and when I see all those kids, I think, wow, her body has never had a chance to fully recover from the previous birth before she has another child.

As to your statement that "people have to be able to make choices BUT there is a limit," who draws that limit? As I said to another poster, that gets into a very touchy area, if we try to tell people how many children they can have. I mean, if we go there as a society, where does it stop? There already is too much government interference in personal things, I think, such as preventing gays from gettng married, cutting into the right to a safe and legal abortion, etc. I believe I understand your point on this issue, but again, who will set the limit on the number of children someone can have?

Many older children have responsibility for younger siblings, even in much smaller families. I am the oldest of 5 children, and as the oldest, I did have responsibility toward the younger ones. Not primary responsiiblity, mind you, but some responsibility. My view is that it helped me become a responsible adult. However, I agree that sometimes that can have a negative affect on some people, and I think that it is more likely to happen when children are given TOO MUCH responsibility for their younger siblings. The parents have got to be the primary caretakers of their children, and not abdicate that responsibility to the oldest of their children.

[Ecumenist]

15. Seattle......

The limit I speak of isn't imposed by the outside but by the conditions inside the family. Frankly, I think that it's EXTREMELY selfish to insist on having more children because of some warped sense of religiousity. I am the eldest of 4 and my two youngest siblings are substantially younger than I am. Being the only girl,I was given PRIMARY responsibility for the care of my two youngest brothers, especially the youngest. I may as well have had a child out of wedlock for what it did to my childhood and teenage years. I have no quarrel with learning to be responsible but when it gets to the point where the child isn't able to play and interact with other children and have a taste of childhood, it's wrong, PERIOD!!! :shrug:
I also saw what it did to other children who went through what I did to an even larger extent because their parents didn't stop at 4 or 5, or 10 for that matter.

[SeattleGirl]

18. Thanks for clarifying what you meant, Ecumenist

Your points make more sense to me now. And I absolutely agree with you that kids should be allowed to be kids, to grow, to play, etc., and not be overly saddled by responsibility toward their younger siblings. It IS the parents who chose to have the children; thus, it falls to the parents to have the primary responsibility for the children. On that, we are in agreement.

When I watched the show about the Duggar's, I felt that the parents were primarily responsible for their children, even though the older children had responsibility for the younger ones. Maybe they were falsely portrayed as more responsible than they are, but I don't know.

[Ecumenist]

22. SeattleGirl........

When I saw that sugar coated saccharine sweet "buddy" line that the mother was giving, I didn't fall for it one minute. I've seen these kind of crap far too many times, over and over again. I went to Christian schools when I was in elementary school. I have FAR too much experience with these types. The creatures called Fundies are the same ones I ran into as a child. I thought that they were crazy and twisted @8 years old and nothing has changed my opinion. Those kids have far too much to do because mom and dad haven't experienced drudgery as children. Usually, (with exceptions given to mormons), the parents have lived somewhat normal childhoods and teen years. It's their children who have to pay. This may sound harsh butI think that mom's name should be changed to Lassie.

[SeattleGirl]

28. Then you do have a more knowledgeable basis for

your point of view. I was involved in a fundie church for a few years, and that was quite enough for me. I want to run screaming from the room most times if I hear any of them talk!

Anyway, I was not exposed to a lot of the families like you were, so my knowledge is much more limited in that area than yours is. Thanks for sharing your experience. Again, the additional information makes your point of view much clearer to me.

[Nikia]

108. Unfortunately, it can happen in small families too

My mother and second husband had a daughter when I was 12 and my sister was 10. Her parents fought all the time and were busy with work. They made my sister and I do everything. We even had the embarassment of taking care of her in public and being mistaken for teen mothers (actually overheard comments).
My mother is married to her third husband and they have a daughter. Now my teenage half sister is expected to parent her little sister.

[movonne]

13. If they are bringing them up fundies, then they are harming them...

[SeattleGirl]

14. Except, the Duggar's wouldn't see it that way

Any more than any other parent who is a devout believer in any particular religion would. Just sayin'.....

[TallahasseeGrannie]

29. You don't know

what is under those pigtails. I doubt seriouslly that good little fundamentalists will come out of this bunch. The oldest girl, maybe. The oldest boys, maybe. The younger ones will rebel, in my opinion. As a teacher I've seen it happen many times in very structured large families.

[Ecumenist]

35. I'm not a teacher and yet, I've seen this over and over again.

Usually, once they leave the nest, they go hogwild doing everything that mom and dad forbid. Ihad a friend I went to highschool with who, once we reached college lost her everloving mind where it came to men, sex and alcohol. It was a spectacular disintergration, a sight to behold. Really rather sad though.:(

[TallahasseeGrannie]

26. I agree

in my line of work I see children raised in awful homes that would make your hair stand up. These kids are cared for.

[Yupster]

36. Agree Tallahhassee

It seems if we're going to start going after dysfunctional families that are harming their kids, there'd be a very long line before we got to the Duggers.

[Pushed To The Left]

110. I agree with you!

I see no reason for anybody to attack this family. I'm glad to see I'm not the only one here who feels this way.

[bluestateguy]

4. They probably don't pay any taxes

ALl those deductions and credits for all of those kids.

[hedgehog]

103. You'd be surprised.

Having a large family can throw you into the Alternative Minimum Tax bracket and raise your taxes. I know myself because my tax bill dropped this year even though my income went up. The reasons? One daughter is no longer a dependent and another is no longer eligible for the child tax credit. Go figure.

[txindy]

6. I don't know, but I'd love to know where they get the money to live.

Yes, they say they pay cash. What does he do (she is obviously employed full-time at home) and how can they possibly afford that many children? I saw the show and thought it was fascinating. They seemed very pleasant and the children extremely well-behaved, but where in the world do they get the money to live, let alone build a huge house? :shrug: The food costs alone should eat up every paycheck.

[Ecumenist]

9. EXACTLY, TXindy!!!

I wonder how they afford to pay that for that army to eat. I saw no garden, at least they didn't show any. I have a sneaking suspicion that there's alot more behind the scenes paying for this family. Isn't daddy self employed? If so, who does he afford medical insurance for that mob? The house is cavernous and I for one, don't believe that they're doing without handouts of some sort.:wow:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

30. Actually, in my experience

health insurance family coverage is not by child, but by family. It covers everyone.

As I said upthread, I got the feeling there were no handouts, that there was family money or dad was in a lucrative business, like stocks or something. They didn't seem like the type of people who would want to be indebted to anyone.

[Ecumenist]

33. I suppose I'm a bit prejudiced by my own experience....

I saw far too much first hand with these types as a child and when I was a bit younger. I, for one, do agree with you in that there's some money coming into thie equation from somewhere other them the manna from heaven angle. I do believe that either daddy has some sort of high income deal, ala, investments, commodoties, etc OR there's some sort of help coming from outside sources. I live in the Sacramento area and we have a lot of Russian Baptist families with LOADS OF CHILDREN. They rely on clothes and food closets at churches throughout the area. That is alright,for we all need help at some point in our lives BUT they keep having children. I have seen actual caravans going from one church to the next, so help me God. I saw the same kind of behaviour in the families I saw whiole growing up in southern California. The children are deprived because of some hyperreligiousity on the part of the parents.:shrug:

[TallahasseeGrannie]

63. We are all formed by our experiences

I have known one very large family, Mormons, who just didn't have the resources to raise that many kids, and the mother's health was precarious. It didn't turn out well. But my mentor and close friend raised seven children very happily and successfully. They are African American and extraordinarily devout but it is a joyful devotion and conducive to raising well adjusted people.

I agree if you have few resources it is not wise to have more children.

[txindy]

40. You've got different insurance than we do. We pay per family member.

Unfortunately.

I think it depends greatly on the insurance company and coverage.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

64. Yikes. That's awful.

I belong to an excellent HMO and it is divided into single, couple, family. Three rates. In 20 years I have never had a complaint with them and certainly had way more medical care than I would have paid for on my own.

[Yupster]

68. When I was a teacher, it was always

Individual, spouse or family coverage.

There wasn't any price difference whether you had one kid or 12.

[Yupster]

37. self delete

On edit I think I'm confusing him with the sextuplet family dad. There was a show on them right after the one on the Dugers. He worked for GM I think.

[txindy]

39. The Dilly family, was it?

I think he was with an airline, but was going to be looking for new work soon as he'd been laid off along with many in his office.

[Yupster]

41. You're right

txindy.

Gotta keep my shows unconfusiated.

[Dora]

87. It can be done.

Having enough money to live means different things to different people. Many people choose to scrimp and save early in their lives in order to guarantee their financial freedom later in life. By eliminating debt early on these people allow themselves the freedom to make choices that we the debt-ridden don't have.

I bet she sews clothes for the family, or at least a good deal of them. I imagine also that their closets aren't filled with impulse purchases that don't get worn. How much do they spend on entertainment? Probably not much. But I know many a household that spends a lot of money on cable, video games, video rentals, high-speed internet, satellite radio, and other unnecessaries, and all that is just without leaving the house. Has she always been a stay-at-home mother? I think it's possible that before they had children she worked outside of the home, allowing them to save even more money.

Unfortunately, I was raised in a house that spent every penny it earned, and now I find myself fighting that legacy.

[txindy]

93. She definitely sews their clothes, or, at least, the girls do.

The boys are the only ones wearing store-bought clothes. The thing is, the parents were married as teenagers, I believe, so there wasn't a whole lot of saving of money beforehand. She is a high school graduate, but hasn't worked outside of the home - no time, I imagine. They have no electronic games or toys, although they do have seven computers and every child plays his/her own violin. They've also got a bus, large van, and a mobile home. Right now they're building a 7,000 foot home by themselves - a home with two 1,000 sq. ft. bedrooms., one for the boys and one for the girls. The parents are the only ones with any semblance of privacy at night.

I do not know if they received any compensation for the documentary on TLC or the article in Parents magazine.

It obviously can be done financially because the evidence is right there in that family. It's just that I would think the monthly toilet paper bill alone would be astronomical! ;)

[Nikia]

107. A large family I knew owned a construction company

The business did quite well and they were able to live a middle class lifestyle with 13 children. My friend, the 3rd of 9 children, lamented that she would have been able to live a middle class lifestyle instead of being poor if her parents had stopped having childrne after she was born.

[theHandpuppet]

17. A day in the life of the Duggar family

http://www.jimbob.info/faq.html

[SeattleGirl]

19. Thanks for the link. n/t

[elehhhhna]

20. He's a STATE REP in Arkansas, and they don't wear bathing suits:

He WAS a stte rep, but now: "By getting out of debt and not purchasing anything unless they have cash, the Duggars have saved enough to make investments in such things as rental and commercial property. Their investments have done so well that Jim Bob doesn't have to work a full-time job"

,,,

"The girls exclusively wear dresses and skirts. The children wear wet suits instead of bathing suits when they go in the water in order to be modest."

http://64.233.179.104/search?q=cache:DBbXDNl3Fg4J:www.quiverfull.com/articles.php/id20/+duggar+politician+17&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=2

[elehhhhna]

21. PS 2K PER CHILD tax credit -- Not exemption--Credit.

[Ecumenist]

23. wet suits?????!!!!

This is just too far beyond... I've seen these types in real life. They're weirder than can ever be imagined. The things I can tell you about the restrictions on women in these groups...pitiful...

[TallahasseeGrannie]

31. Weird for here

Not so weird for the Middle East, I think.

But frankly, the whole thing fascinates me.

[txindy]

47. Here's a link from their home page. Look at the 'bathing suits'!

Believe it or not, these are considered bathing suits!

http://www.wholesomewear.com/page-4.html (from http://www.jimbob.info/favoritewebsites.html )



I'd say I hope they're kidding, but I have the feeling they're not. :scared:

[Ecumenist]

69. Unfortunately,

This looks all too familiar to me, in regards conservative dressing. You should see what we passed for "gym clothes". I was 7th grade and the girls were forced to wear bloomers ala 1910. This people are SO OBSESSED with anything even remotely sexual.

[tenshi816]

61. If you go to the Duggar website

and look at the photographs of Michelle Duggar when she was engaged and as a bride, and then compare them to the way she looks now, she doesn't look like the same person. Now she has a rictus smile and her eyes have a glassy, slightly unhinged look.

Maybe I'm wrong, but she sure looks a teensy bit frantic and close to the edge to me.

[Ecumenist]

71. I noticed that as well.

I wonder what happened to that woman. She looks like something "SNAPPED" sometime between her wedding and the second child.

[tenshi816]

75. She sure does.

I'm not sure I'd like to be in the kitchen with her at the end of a long day when she's near the knife drawer. She looks a little like she's got voices whispering in her head and she's pretending they're not there.

[Ecumenist]

82. I thought about that when I saw a blurb about that mother in Texas...

who killed her children, can't remember her name right now.

[loudestchick]

119. She had a miscarriage while on birth control. SNAP!

[elehhhhna]

65. wet suits Do provide some buoyancy for the little ones.

you'd think a couple with 17 kids wouldn't be so freaked by the human body though.

[Ecumenist]

72. Exactly......

AS often as mom is pregnant, you would think that it would be a subject they are comfortable with. However, all too often these families are so hung up sexually that the girls are so unprepared for marriage and adulthood, is pathetic.:spank:

[arkie dem]

32. I've been told this also.....

the only employment I've ever known Jim Bob to have was running a small used car lot here in Springdale. There's plenty of wealthy fundies around here to slip him a buck or two.

[Ecumenist]

34. What a crying shame....nt

[Yupster]

38. Modest?

Boy you'd think with 17 kids of all ages running around the house all the time modesty wouldn't be something they'd worry much about.

I think the general rule 100 years or so ago was that it was important for girls to be modest, but since the girls pretty much brought up their brothers, there wasn't a whole lot of care whether the boys were modest or not.

By age seven, a girl was taking care of her baby brother, at age 13 she was in charge of the boys, and at age 16 she was glad to get out of there and get married herself to start her own family.

[TallahasseeGrannie]

25. I got the feeling

they had either family money or Daddy had a reallly good job.

[ThatsMyBarack]

43. I think they are raising them....

....to be Repukes, and that scares me! :hide: :nuke:

[txindy]

44. Lol! You think so? That's a pretty safe bet. Let's see:

13 Children Add Up To Asset For Challenger


Date: 9/9/2001

CARRIE RENGERS ARKANSAS DEMOCRAT-GAZETTE

SPRINGDALE -- Jim Bob Duggar looks calm. He might even be calm. There's not a strand out of place on his Ken-doll hair. This is remarkable not only because there are 13 children playing at his feet--his 13 children--but also because he's a state representative waging a long-shot campaign for the U.S. Senate.

..........

Jim Bob wasn't involved in politics until Bill Clinton was elected president in 1992.

"I saw how things were," he says.

He supported Republican Fay Boozman's failed U.S. Senate race. During this time, he went to a Little Rock rally to back a state ban on partial-birth abortions. Thousands of people showed for the protest, but Jim Bob says, "Still, a lot of those senators and representatives did not vote the right way."

So Jim Bob prayed.

"I prayed, 'Lord, I would be willing to run for office,' " he says. "I'd vote the right way."

.....

By golly, every little Duggar will grow up to vote "the right way."

http://www.quiverfull.com/articles.php/id20/

[kskiska]

45. There are likely to be rebels in a family that large

There's most likely a couple of homosexuals or at least a couple of them who'll run off to live a completely different lifestyle.

[SeattleGirl]

46. No doubt about that

My mom went to high school with a girl who was a preacher's daughter. Mom said the minute they graduated, her friend moved out of her parents' house, and became the real party girl. She has sence settled down, but she did totally rebel against the strict rules of her father's house.

[Ecumenist]

83. Either that or a few libertines....

:evilgrin:

[JI7]

48. the older kids become parents to the younger ones

based on what i saw on TLC about a week ago. they have some system that the mother takes care of the newest born up to a certain point when one of the older kids starts to take care of them and do things that parents should be doing.

all the girls share one room and all the boys share a room. they only have 2 bathrooms also.

the food they eat isn't so great but it's cheap and quick meals which is necessary for such a large family.

the kids homeschool but have no access to tv or internet so don't really have access to the outside world. they seem pretty controlled in terms of what ideas and other things they are exposed to.

with the oldest child right now being at least 18 it will be interesting to see what happens. especially if they go off to college. will it be some fundie college ?

i hope tlc continues the updates and we see what is going on with the older kid's lives, especially the girls.

[SeattleGirl]

49. I hope TLC does some update shows too

It would be interesting to see what the kids end up doing as they leave the nest. Do they stay within the culture in which they grew up? Do they become rebels? Something in between? Do they marry? Have gobs of children? Please, TLC, keep following these folks. Agree with their choices or not, they are interesting.

[deadparrot]

55. At the end of the TLC thing, they said that Discovery Health

will be showing an "update" of sorts in "Spring 2006." They didn't have a more precise date, but I'm going to keep my eye open. I find it kind of grotesquely fascinating.

[bumblebee1]

50. Would there be this much interest if

the Duggars were black or there was a family named Rodriguez who had 17 children?

[SeattleGirl]

53. Interesting question

I had not even considered that. I guess for me, skin color is not an issue, but I know for a lot of people, it is.

[JI7]

54. if they were black or named Rodriguez, i doubt the fundies would help out

i'm pretty sure this family is being supported by the church at least in some way. that wouldn't be happening if they were black or latino.

[Maddy McCall]

56. Of course there would.

And there would be just as many prejudicial, stereotypical assumptions.

[Katherine Brengle]

57. Pukes would automatically start calling Lassie a "welfare mother"

without even stopping to find out if the family received assistance if they were black.

I just think this is sick, but that's just me...

[Ecumenist]

77. Amen, Katherine....AMEN!!

After all, we know that Black, hispanic and another type of woman with a bit more melanin only has more children to get more money....:sarcasm:

[Ecumenist]

84. only as a demonstration in reproductive irresponsibility...

[OneBlueSky]

58. among that many kids, one or more are likely to be gay or lesbian . . .

if they ever revealed it, of course, they'd no doubt be sent to one of those "straightening" programs at a fundie church . . .

but once they're adults, they'll eventually have to confront their true sexual identities -- and that should make for some traumatic personal crises and some fascinating family dynamics . . .

[alfred e bush]

59. i'd bet

they get medical for the kids and food stamp benefits for 19...i'm a eligibity worker in michigan....assets dont count for food stamps and childrens medical insurance....the income from those investments would though

[Ecumenist]

78. Wouldn't surprise me that any investments are in the names.....

Of other family members. That's the usual strategy.

[Ecumenist]

74. That crossed my mind too.

I'll make a prediction: in few years, we'll hear something in the state controlled media about this family being torn apart by a devastating revelation about either one of hte oldest girls or boys(more likely), coming out and either writing or being interviewed about sexual abuse within the family, either by one of the parents, member of the extended family or friends. then going on to say that they weren't able to get help because the parents provided absolutely no support, belief or even went to the extent to blame them for "tempting" the abuser. Seen it too often. I'll not even begin to tell you they'll be threatened with, ostracism notwithstanding.

[napi21]

90. I guess that's right. I was thinking a little different.

When you have THAT many individuals, I believe it's inevitable that there will be at least a few who rebel against religion, and the establishment as they know it. They might be gay, turn to prostitution, or worse.

I guess it's this family's decision to choose that many children, but the days of needing a lot of kids to "work the family farm" are long gone! When my 2 boys were small, we had a neighbor who had 13 children. They were all happy kids for sure, but they really never got any "parenting". Basicly the older kids took care of the younger ones.

[BiggJawn]

62. $61,730 or less puts his family in poverty

Sixty-one Kilobucks, and he's elligible for Food Stamps and WIC.

Hey, I know your book says "Go forth, be Fruitful, and MULTIPLY..."

But did it mean to DO THE WHOLE DAMN JOB YOURSELF????

The Duggar Family....Bringing the Age of Soylent Green just THAT much closer.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ecumenist]

76. Mopinko......

I believe that there should be limits, from within the family because all too often, as the family grows, the children have to give up their childhoods and teen years to become primary caretakers for the younger children and being home most of the time due to homeschool, this becomes something they have no respite from. I know this first hand Mopinko and was surrounded by other children who went through the same mess. Many of these same children have become bitter adults who refuse to have childrenm yet strangely often talk about how if their lives were different, the outcome would have been VASTLY changed. So before you begin to judge those of us who've seen this train wreck of family "dynamics", you should consider that some of us speak from experience.

[rinsd]

86. Limits?

In what form?

Frankly I consider the right to procreate(or not procreate) to be sacrosanct to be limited in only the most extreme chances of danger to the child.

[Name removed]

89. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ecumenist]

91. You know what, Mo?

You have subjected me and others in this thread to language that had no reason to be uttered. If you feel that you have a point, fine but you have NO RIGHT to judge others views on what they believe that people need to think about regarding these type of families/litters. I come to this discussion with first hand experience, complete with physical abuse and sexual abuse on my 5 year old body by a cousin through marriage EVERY SINGLE DAY FOR A YEAR, (and it went far beyond touching). I was put through so much stress as the primary caregiver fore two small children that I went on to develop stress induced duodenal ulcers that left me CLINICALLY DEAD on three occasions, (medically substantiated through my records and continue to stagger through life with a partial stomach). I had to take on the responsibility of a grown woman @11 YEARS OLD and even had to take my infant brothers with me when I went to visit my cousin for the summer @ 15 years old. I was not allowed to have a normal teen experience, (and I'm not talking about drugs, sex etc, that was never my thing nor would have indulged in that). I was not allowed to spend time just visiting with my friends because I had to take care of children, even though I HAD NEVER HAD SEXUAL CONGRESS OF ANY KIND, WILLINGLY!! I regularly experienced internal HAEMORRHAGES that was directly attributed to the stress that I was undergoing while undergoing physical abuse @ the hands of my father, (I am about 5'4" and my father was 6'6"). I ended up in a wheelchair for four years, (an autoimmune disorder exacerbated by the incredible pressure I was under) and I was STILL EXPECTED to take care of my youngest brothers, cook 3 full meals from scratch for them, (nothing canned, frozen, except fresh frzen vegetables nor boxed), keep house, make sure homework was done in addition to my own,(maintaining a suitably high GPA), do yarwork and take care of my brother's dog, etc. I suffered broken bones, deep bruises that would make any prizefighter wince and I've yet to include the psychological, emotional and verbal abuse. and you know, Mopinko? I was also not allowed to cook anything for myself IN THE HOUSE. I literally had to make a fire on the large grill outside to cook for myself. I wento to school, I went to church, where I was the musical director and I went home. Yet, I was called whore and every other name but a child of God. So, don't tell me about your idea, however, idealised it may be of your dysfunctional catholic family. I'VE LIVED THE LIFE THAT THESE CHILDREN ARE LIVING AND HAVE THE PSYCHOLOGICAL, PHYSICAL EMOTIONAL AND SURGICAL SCARS TO PROVE IT!!! I have a right to say what I say and guess what? I don't have to use words that only an ignorant philistine uses when they have no way to prove their points.

[rinsd]

94. So what's your solution?

You seem to have the most personally invested in this.

You seem to feel the most strongly against it. So what do you advocate?

Public shaming of those with large families? Legislative measures? Banning Cheaper by the Dozen? What?

[Ecumenist]

95. Rinsd,

I DO NOT advocate bureaucratic interference ofthat kind BUT I do advocate some sort of integration of education of what this leads to. For many of these people, there is no way to get through to them BUT once these children are ostracised for seeing the light, there needs to be some sort of program in place to support them and show them that there's another way to salvage their sense of self and not put another generation through the experience they underwent. REmember, at one time, slavery of another human being was considered to be a God given right.

[rinsd]

97. Ya know,

I feel compassion for your plight and for your fears.

But when you compare the natural right to procreate or not(could there be a more natural right?) to the manufactured right of slavery? Well you just lost me.

[Ecumenist]

98. "ya know", Rinsd,

There is a difference between a straight comparison and an analytical metaphor which is quite appropriate and I will not rise to the bait. I have no fears, as you term. Rather, concern for the countless numbers of children who are subjected to childhood drudgery because of an overinflated, hyperreligious drive to prove virility on daddy's part and what, for all the world, seems like a pathilogical addiction to be uber mother and spend most of her marriage pregnant. Tell me, Rinsd, how many people have you made acquaintance with the products of these situations? If you could put your own beliefs aside to try to walk in their shoes for just one moment. I'm not saying mor have I ever said that the government should step in. Hell, they can't even get their lousy lies straight. It's just not right to put innocent children through this kind of hell where they can't even think about being a kid without taking one far too much resposibility at too young an age. I believe that responsibility is absolutely indispensible for character development and should there be guidelines? You bet your sweet bippy. But when the results of mom and dad's relationship end up oppressing the other children as soon as the newborns become weaned not the way to treat CHILDREN!!! Mom had the children and I do believe that there should be chores and helping out with the others but not acting as surrogate parents.
By the way, as someone else earlier in thread, this family have opened themselves to public dissection, comment and to certain extent, judgemental comments, whether purposeful or by default.

[rinsd]

99. It's an analytic metaphor loaded with hyperbole....

...I understand it from your perspective personally but to apply it to large families as a whole is a bit generalizing. You speak of countless children. Well let's do some number crunching. How many families with children constitute large families. What is your definition of a large family?

I come from a family of 5 children. My mother was one of 6. My father was one of 4. I would think 5 or 6 would be the best starting measure. Because once you get to the 17 or so of this family, we're dealing with a rare case.

[Ecumenist]

105. Rinsd,

It's clear that you've never had the unfortunate priviledge to travel or have contact with fundamentalist families and their circles. These familes AREN'T as rare as you think. I regularly see families of 10, 12, 14 children in the eastern European prtestant groups here in northern California. It's amess when you see small chidren wearing plastic sandals in the dead of winter because that's all that can be afforded. These types don't necessarily cotton to census takers or register with the state because of a suspicion of bureaucrats and government, which is becoming more understandable day by day. That being said, I wonder if you you know how many of these children are born at home and never enrolled in school , (again because of religious admonitions against it). This is the reality, Rinsd and I seee this on a regular basis.

[Gormy Cuss]

92. We are invited to judge and comment by the Duggars' own acts.

IMO, there is no valid reason to have that many children these days. I wouldn't support any effort to legislate a limit on family size, but that doesn't mean I have no right to judge this behavior as self-centered, wasteful, and contrary to the public good.

I'm from a large family and most of my neighborhood friends were from large families (by large I mean more than 6 kids.) The outcomes for the children are all over the map. Many came through the experience just fine but not a single one of them has chosen to have the same size family. A few had four kids, none had more. Why? The principal reasons are they associate large families with poverty, lack of opportunity to participate in school activities and lack of individualized attention from parents.

It's from this experience that some of us are qualified to judge when people like Jim Bob Duggar hold out their families as exemplars. If the Duggars were not voluntarily in the public eye then I would agree that it's none of my business.

[Ecumenist]

96. You tell it Gormy...

I appreciate your elucidation about just why we're examining this subject..:hi:

[Name removed]

85. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[txindy]

88. She should drop as many babies as she wants. I'd love updates.

There isn't enough comedy in the world as it is.

[zanne]

100. My father was one of 20 kids.

There was nothing romantic or holy about it. My grandparents were strict Roman Catholics. Even the rhythm method was a no-no. The oldest kids were parents to the younger kids, and all the kids had to "earn their keep". They all had to bring in money by the time they were ten. It was a miserable life for them. Most of them never got married. They didn't receive much attention or affection as kids, so they didn't know how to be affectionate toward others. All in all, a terrible way to live.

[Ecumenist]

101. Zanne, thank you for validating and adding your own....

experience, (by proxy). This is exactly what I'm talking about.

[hedgehog]

104. For the record

My memory is that I asked my eldest daughter to change her youngest sister one time. (I specifically wanted to avoid making her the 2nd mother). Her memory is that she changed diapers all the time. I suspect that given her squeamishness, my memory is clearer than hers.

[Ecumenist]

106. LOL!! hedgehog,

I have quarrel with that and infact, I believe that that kind of helping out is good for children. I understand the fog of time making a mountain out of molehill. I'm talking about something all together different. I'm talking about abdicating parenthood in favour of assigning older siblings to take over day to day care once the babies are weaned.

[ikojo]

114. I do believe that if they file an income tax form

they get a deduction for each of the kids under 18. That's something from the government. If all of their kids are under 18 then that is an $17,000 REDUCTION in the amount of income subject to taxes.

[elehhhhna]

116. uh ih it's way worse than that:

They get a 2K per child TAX CREDIT (dollars off taxes due) PLUS 19 personal exemptions.

[ikojo]

117. Wow! and I've never gotten a tax refund...

no kids or no property therefore no deductions...

[hedgehog]

118. As I noted above,

There is a glitch in the system that penalizes large families dependent on wages. We found ourselves thrown into the Alternative Minimum Tax bracket and ended up paying MORE! This year our income went up, but one daughter was dropped as a dependent and another aged out of the child tax credit, and our tax bill went down! Go figure!