Holocaust Denier will appeal Austrian ruling

[Charlie Brown]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/4734648.stm

British historian David Irving is to appeal against the prison term imposed by an Austrian court for denying the Holocaust of European Jewry.
Irving, who appeared stunned by the three-year sentence, told reporters: "I'm very shocked."

He had pleaded guilty to the charge which arose from comments he made in Austria in 1989 denying the existence of gas chambers at Auschwitz.

Austria is one of 11 countries with laws against denying the Holocaust.

"I said that then based on my knowledge at the time, but by 1991 when I came across the Eichmann papers, I wasn't saying that anymore and I wouldn't say that now," Irving told the court.

"The Nazis did murder millions of Jews."

[ugarte]

1. Explain this double standard to Muslims

Lampooning Mohammed is protected by free speech, but denying the holocaust is not.

[FreedomAngel82]

2. How could anybody deny it??

:shrug: There's so much proof out there. Not just personal testimonies.

[NanceGreggs]

3. Give it fifty years ...

... and there will be people out there denying the existence of Gitmo & Abu-Ghraib.

[EFerrari]

5. They're doing it now, essentially.

Gitmo was built to house dangerous terrorists that we saw shackled and hooded. Where did all those innocent goat herders come from?

Abu Graib was just a few bad apples -- that magically operated all over the world. Oh, those wacky Appalachian kids and their leashes and bad dogs.

[NanceGreggs]

6. The 'Bad Apples" available at your local GOP grocery ...

THE CHENEY APPLE: Tough-skinned and colourless, leaves a bitter aftertaste. Core has strange metallic quality.

THE BUMBLIN' BUSHIE: Lackluster appearance, mushy interior, only stays firm when surrounded by apples of like ilk. Not suitable for baking; tends to get flaky when exposed to heat.

THE RED RUMMY: Squat but firm; only palatable when thrown in the food processer with a LOT of strong liquor.

THE CONDI: Rich-skinned exterior; tasteless inner core, but exudes strong, unpleasant aroma.

THE BLUSHIN' BLAIR: Well-polished exterior; runny interior. Tends to absorb flavours from surrounding fruit when mixed in tarts or pies.

[Texacrat]

9. Statements like that minimize the Holocaust

Guantanamo Bay compares in no way to Auschwitz and Lyndie England does not compare to Adolf Hitler.

[wake.up.america]

4. Well, I will defend his right to lie. He is doing it for the money and

attention. He is not ignorant of the facts...

[Donald Ian Rankin]

16. Bare in mind that David Irvine was imprisoned in Austria.

In most other Western countries, holocaust denial would have lead to him being ostracised, but not prosecuted.

While there is an arguable double standard on freedom of speech in Austria, and to a lesser but still noticable extent in other countries, it's that holocaust denial is less acceptable that everything else rather than that attacking Islam is more acceptable than anything else. If Irvine had said that Jews were evil he'd have been roundly condemned, but no-one would have dreamed it was a matter for the law; but many European nations have - understandably but not justifiably, in my view - laws dealing with holocaust denial far more draconian that those dealing with other similar issues.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

17. There's a wonderful website out there somewhere

That "proves" that Hiroshima and Nagasaki were never bombed by listing 25 inconsistencies in the scientific evidence, to demonstrate how easy this sort of thing is. The trick is to talk in a scientific and informed sounding fashion, and confidently pronounce that X and Y are true and incompatible. Many Creationist/ID websites use the same trick very effectively (although please note that I'm *not* trying to equate Creationism with Holocaust denial - one's merely silly, the other is outright evil).

With a little thought, one could probably "prove" that World War II never happened, never mind the Holocaust, in such a way that anyone who wasn't willing to spend a fair while doing research couldn't disprove it.

[Bushy Being Born]

7. I can't decide what's sicker

Denying the holocaust, or getting three years in jail for doing so.

[neweurope]

8. There are good reasons for these laws.

Forbidding the denial of the holocaust (a denial that started right after WW II) makes it much harder for the neo-nazi rat catchers. We have this law in Germany and I'm very comfortable with it! And, no, I don't think it has anything to do with free speech. Freedom of speech doesn't include hate speech for me, and the denial of the holocaust is that.

-------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[sandnsea]

10. So is depicting Mohammed as a terrorist

As long as we're getting hate speech clarified.

[neweurope]

11. I quite agree!

Those cartoons were about stirring cultural hatred and the paper should have been punished.

------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[sandnsea]

14. We're on the same page

I understand the purpose of the laws, but they should be applied evenly and geared at ending all racial and religious antagonisms. Seems so logical.

[Donald Ian Rankin]

18. I strongly disagree.

Freedom of speech explicitly does include "hate speech", (whatever that means), and every other kind of speech.

I think it's justifiable to make incitement to crime, slander, and the revealing of confidential information illegal (although all of those are also infringements of freedom of speech), but banning saying something just because it's offensive is completely unjustifiable.

Most forms of what gets dubbed "hate speech" are explicitly or implicitly political, in as much as that they are attempts to influence the national opinion, and I think freedom of that kind of speech needs to be protected more fiercely than any other.

[neweurope]

21. In Germany freedom of speech explicitly does NOT include hate

speech and that's very fine with me and has served us well.

I've been a journalist for 20 years and not once have I thought the freedom of speech or of the press in danger because of those laws. If I ever did it was because most of the publishing houses tend to be conservative and expect their journalists to follow certain unspoken rules.

--------------

Remember Fallujah

Bush to The Hague!

[roguevalley]

12. he's shocked? Idiot. Don't go to a country and break its laws.

[rman]

13. Making inaccurate scientific/historic claims, or being an idiot

is normally not reason for prison sentence.


"If you believe in freedom of speech, you believe in freedom of speech for views you don't like. Goebbels was in favor of freedom of speech for views he liked, so was Stalin. If you are in favor of freedom of speech, then you are in favor of freedom of speech precisely for views you despise."

"With regard of my defense of people who express utterly offensive views, (many people say) 'you are defending this person's views'. I am not, I am defending the right to express them.
The difference is crucial, and the difference has been understood outside of fascist circles since the 18th century."

-- Noam Chomsky

[TheBaldyMan]

19. how about making innaccurate historical claims in front of a

crowd of neo-nazi skinheads? Especially a claim that the holocaust was a myth. Perhaps Mr. Irvine would be shocked that some of the crowd would be incited to racial hatred by his remarks. Perhaps he would also be shocked that the country he was making his remarks in may be very sensitive to neo-nazis because Hitler was an Austrian by birth.

Perhaps he was shocked because the Austrian authorities didn't buy his bullshit and threw his sorry hide in jail for three years. He has shown anything but contempt for the Austrian legal system?

If you are caught on a speed camera doing 120mph in a 50mph zone you can't complain when you get a ticket. Even when you say 'I admit I was speeding back then but I keep to the speed limit now'

[rman]

20. Your comparison with speed limit does not hold

because there is no law against making inaccurate historical claims.

[TheBaldyMan]

24. What is holocaust denial ?

in several european countries it is a crime. Perhaps I'm too even handed, not calling Mr. Irvine an outright liar.

[sandnsea]

15. Breaking unfair laws

is often the only way to get them overturned. If we have unConstitutional laws, somebody has to break them in order to make a court case to get to the Supreme Court and have them overturned. I don't like what the guy had to say, not even sure I have a problem with the laws; but I do have a problem with the idea that we should all follow laws and never consider breaking them if they are clearly wrong.

[roguevalley]

22. if you want the jail time, break the law. there are plenty of americans

in foreign jails over drug laws. overturning laws doesn't happen often in foreign countries.

[cynatnite]

23. If being an idiot was against the law, the jails would be full...

Denying the holocaust, no matter how stupid it may be, is this idiot's right. I really don't think there should be a law against it. This violates free speech even though the message is repugnant.