To: [e-mail] Subject: Why It's All About Me

[rodeodance]

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/02/21/education/21professors.html?th=&emc=th&pagewanted=print

February 21, 2006
To: [e-mail] Subject: Why It's All About Me
By JONATHAN D. GLATER

One student skipped class and then sent the professor an e-mail message asking for copies of her teaching notes. Another did not like her grade, and wrote a petulant message to the professor. Another explained that she was late for a Monday class because she was recovering from drinking too much at a wild weekend party.

Jennifer Schultens, an associate professor of mathematics at the University of California, Davis, received this e-mail message last September from a student in her calculus course: "Should I buy a binder or a subject notebook? Since I'm a freshman, I'm not sure how to shop for school supplies. Would you let me know your recommendations? Thank you!"

........

These days, they say, students seem to view them as available around the clock, sending a steady stream of e-mail messages — from 10 a week to 10 after every class — that are too informal or downright inappropriate.

"The tone that they would take in e-mail was pretty astounding," said Michael J. Kessler, an assistant dean and a lecturer in theology at Georgetown University. " 'I need to know this and you need to tell me right now,' with a familiarity that can sometimes border on imperative."

[rodeodance]

1. "he planned to miss class so he could play with his son."

.....Meanwhile, students seem unaware that what they write in e-mail could adversely affect them, Professor Lahav said. She recalled an e-mail message from a student saying that he planned to miss class so he could play with his son. Professor Lahav did not respond.

"It's graduate school, he's an adult human being, he's obviously a parent, and it's not my place to tell him how to run his life," she said.

But such e-mail messages can have consequences, she added. "Students don't understand that what they say in e-mail can make them seem very unprofessional, and could result in a bad recommendation." .......

[Maddy McCall]

2. Don't even get me started.

"Professor, can I just email my paper to you instead of having to bring it to class?"

"Why can't I play on my laptop during class?"

"Can I have a copy of your notes so that I can study for the midterm? Mine aren't too good."

"I can't believe you gave me a D on this paper. I've always been an A+ student!"

:eyes:

[Lisa]

12. "can I write the exam the following week, because I'm going on a ski trip"

No kidding. I got a request like that not long after I started teaching at a West Coast college, and when I asked my officemate if this was usual, she sighed, and said, "only in the Northwest do so many students consider snowboarding or kayaking valid for 'compassionate leave'".


I'm glad I'm not the only one who's cracking down on e-mailed papers. One student claimed she'd sent me a paper just before midnight on the due date, even though I'd asked them not to do this -- but she hadn't attached it properly, so the file never showed up. And someone else went to Mexico, then faxed a paper to her boyfriend to hand in ... part of it got cut off ... and the last I'd heard, she'd dumped the poor guy, saying it was all his fault!

[Maddy McCall]

14. My rule is, I don't care what your crisis is, do NOT email a paper to me.

I don't have time or money to spare to print out YOUR paper.

I also don't accept mutiple-page assignments that are not stapled. You're in fucking college. Buy a goddam stapler.

I don't grade papers written in pink ink. Or pencil. It's college. You're being prepared for the "real work." When you graduate and become a CPA, see how seriously your clients take your work when it's written in neon green ink.

Lisa, we could discuss this for days. Some day, we'll have to have a lounge contest on the very-most-ever-stupidest sentence presented in a research paper or essay by a student.

:hi:

Don't you just LOVE the students who try to go over your head to the chair because they don't think you're being fair by giving assignments when they can't possibly be in class for whatever reason? Thank GOD I have a chair who backs the faculty. :D

Let me add, though---this crop of incoming freshmen (and last year's) has just amazed me...in a bad way. I've talked to liberal-arts colleagues in other regions of the US, and they tell me the same thing. If we are lucky, we have one outstanding student each year. Five years ago, there would at least be 10 who were competetive over-achievers. Not these past couple of years, though. Are you having the same experience?

[TheProphetess]

17. I do not allow students to turn in papers via email either

I will let them send me an email with a rough draft to get some feedback (because I had learned the hard way that they can't write well!). But for final drafts of papers, they must turn in a hard copy of the paper directly to me (in my syllabus it says "NO ELECTRONIC VERSIONS OF PAPERS WILL BE ACCEPTED").

My campus lets students print for FREE, but my department has a budget for our printer so I refuse to print for them. Plus, if you allow the email copies of papers, there's always the student who claims to have sent the attachment when none appears. Nice way to get some extra time to work on the assignment. Oy!

[Runcible Spoon]

70. Oh yes I know that little "corrupted attachment" trick!

It's so easy! go find a stupid google page in gibberish, cut n paste, instant "corrupted document"! I don't know what's more insulting, trying to trick me or believing that I'll buy it. I talk about these tricks on the first day of class and then before a big paper due date. I don't know why some of them still do it. :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

[northzax]

78. corrupted attachment?

I do believe that's an F. If you wish to resubmit your paper for another grade, I will accept it, and grade it as before. Except I will deduct one full letter grade for being late for every 24 hours it takes you to turn it in.

solves that right up, I find.

[smirkymonkey]

18. Sounds like anecdotal proof of the dumbing down of America.

I weep for the future. It must be discouraging to be an educator these days.

[malaise]

80. The dumbing down of the planet

A student told me she was heading off for a modeling stint overseas and wondered if I would email her my lecture notes. I did laugh.
It is painful trying to deliver lectures to young people who want degrees and not an education. Their arrogance and sense of self importance is over-bearing. What makes it worse is that a large percentage of them are unbelievably stupid and ignorant. We were one lucky generation.
sp. and add.

[kevinbgoode]

19. Oh yes. . .but to a smaller degree

I'm not sure how this approach works, but you might try it. . .

At the beginning of the semester, I inform my students that they are considered legal adults, and as such, I expect them to make ADULT decisions. Then I tell them that I'm really not interested in why they might choose to miss class, why they can't get the assignment finished, etc...and it isn't really necessary to bother me with such things. After all, since they are now adults, I'm going to assume that they are making the right decision for themselves at the time - and in doing so, if it means they must miss class, then I'm also assuming they have made the choice to sacrifice any points/activities information that I have distributed on that day.

I explain carefully that when they have made that choice, it has no bearing on how I might view them as a student at all - in fact, I expect them to respect that I have had to move on to the next unit, since that is my job. And while I am pleased that they have rejoined the class, I expect them to pick up right where the rest of us are, and understand that in making their decision to miss the previous class that they know the sacrifice they have chosen to make.

While I make some allowances for pre-arranged situations and accept some e-mail questions and occasional papers, I do not let them off the hook. I don't ask them why they missed class, don't ask them why they didn't turn in the assignment, and don't ask them for an explanation for their absence - as adults, that is all their responsibility. The surprise comes when they attempt to approach you and explain why they were gone, and you interrupt them...pleasantly...and tell them that it's perfectly fine - after all, I am confident that they made the decision that was in their best interest and it isn't necessary to let me know about that decision. That makes it a little awkward for them to ask to turn in a late assignment . . .just make sure you also tell them how glad you are to see them again today.

[hfojvt]

22. why does a paper need to be printed out?

In my college days all I had was a cheapo typewriter. Fortunately, or unfortunately, I never had to do papers until my 2nd senior year, and only then because I went for the BA instead of the BS.

It would not bother me to do my grading electronically. In fact, I would probably prefer to save the paper, and I prefer to write electronically vs. paper. I have not owned a working printer since 1999, and have been emailing LTTEs since I got the internet.

As an undergrad I always liked the classes where the midterm dates were given at the beginning of the year - then you could skip most other classes. Two things I did not like about class - first, the prof many times was not going beyond the textbook, and second, when another, apparently slower student asks the formless 'question' - 'I don't get it' and I have to spend ten minutes having something explained again in excrutiating detail, at the end of which she says 'I still don't get it' and the TA starts to explain it again and I say to myself 'I am outta here'. But I never had problems with my grades since I quickly learned to settle for B's.

[readmoreoften]

27. No way.

I'm not reading 100 papers that are 8 pages long on my computer. Why should I have to print out your work to grade it and give comments?

[knitter4democracy]

50. I found it hard to grade an electronic version.

When I taught high school English, I had a couple of students turn in electronic copies due to computer problems. I tried to read through them and make comments in red, but I missed many, many things. I just can't see everything on a screen like I can on paper. I always ended up needing a printout.

[Lisa]

64. stick with the textbook, or not ... it's a dilemma for the instructors ...

Some students, especially the ones who already know the topic, get bored if all you do lecture out of the book. One thing I try to do is to bring in new material (from recent scientific papers or conferences) so at least those who take the time to come to class will get something novel out of it. And you pretty much have to make additions if the book is not current, or doesn't have many local examples (say, if we're supposed to be looking at resource management in Canada, and the book uses mainly American material).

But whenever I do it, I get a bunch of complaints from people who were expecting they could follow along with the class just by reading the book, and not coming in. (I even had students' parents phoning me and complaining that I was "being tricky" by putting in extra stuff, and complaining that I was a sorry excuse for an instructor if I couldn't even stick to the text.)

I do it anyway, since I like keeping the topics up to date, and I do believe in respecting students who are trying to learn everything they can about what we're studying -- I just have to hope that the chair sees it the same way.

[petronius]

24. I don't mind electronic copies

I find I can grade a paper as easily by typing my comments directly in the document and then sending it back. However, I am seriously irked by the e-mails that take a tone of entitlement (e.g. "I need to reschedule my final exam." Answer: You might, but I sure don't...) and I get really tired sometimes of informality; if I want to be called by my first name I'll let you know. Bad grammar, spelling, etc., is more depressing than anything else, and it does tend to color my opinion of the student.

My favorite student e-mail so far, though, was the one that was from a girl asking for a higher grade so she could qualify for a scholarship - it was a multi-page exercise in heart-string-tugging, and it included the line "I know $1000 doesn't mean much to you..." HA, does she think I got into academia for the money?

[Viking12]

94. I teach distance ed; electronic submissions are the only practical option

For that course I do the same as you -- type in comments and e-mail the papers back. It works well. I only teach one section of 24 students in this format, so it's not cumbersome.

However, I would not be able to grade electronic submissions for all 100+ students in the four sections I teach each semester. I need to be portable and flexible. Some time at the coffee shop, some time at the kitchen table after my kids go to bed, some time on the bus. If I didn't break the grading into chunks, I would go insane and the quality of my evaluations and feedback would suffer.

Additionally, as others have pointed out I don't have the time or financial support to print copies.

In short, as my syllabi states: No electronic submissions! No exceptions!

[Craig3410]

42. Hey! I'm a freshman!

But, OTOH, I type in complete sentences and use capitals and punctuaion in my email; I might just be a rare exception. :)

[JackRiddler]

43. Almost, but you blew it.

You say so, but what's an OTOH? And on such a protestation, even one misspelling or typo harms your case. (Proofread.)

[meganmonkey]

63. In his defense, he is on a discussion board now, not emailing a prof

:shrug:

[JackRiddler]

65. Honestly.

Just as bad on a message board. If a professor's worth the trouble, so are we.

And hell I'm guilty too.

imo LIHOP rofl roflmao roflmbo (ouch!) etc.

So what's OTOH, anyway?

[meganmonkey]

66. OTOH = 'On the other hand'

I have a couple of different discussion board voices. For quick comments of agreement or insulting our government, I use a casual voice with abbreviations, slang, bad punctuation, etc. But when I am involved in a real dialogue about an issue I try to be more coherent and accurate. I can flip back and forth between the two several times in one post, if necessary :)

[Lisa]

62. I can't print out student papers -- I don't even have printer access ...

Let alone a color printer (so a map or diagram sent to me online would come out in black and white, and given the color schemes a lot of people choose, it could be illegible).

The only way I could get a printout from a student paper would be to download it onto disk (I'm currently borrowing use of a computer in another faculty member's lab), and take it home. (I have no Web access at home, even though my landlord's been promising this for almost 2 years now.)

Multiply this by 60 or 70 students, and it just gets too cumbersome ... it would take my home printer 2 days to get through the lot, and that would slow down the marking (a lot of students want their paper back that same week). Passing the costs of paper and printer cartridges on to me is minor (though still an issue) compared with the trouble that could result from corrupted files. If the paper is garbled (or if the paper arrives with changes in font, spacing, etc. which make it difficult to read), it then becomes my problem -- and I just haven't got time to fix up everyone's papers, because they forgot to convert to RTF or something.

The main reason why I discourage electronic submissions is because of the risk of things getting lost, or not getting attached properly. I've had too many situations where I've had to chase people down in cyberspace because stuff wasn't readable ... one student I was supervising for her honors work sent a corrupted file and took off without waiting to see if it arrived safely. When I finally did manage to get hold of her, she explained that she was sailing around on a friend's boat, several hundred miles away, and wouldn't be able to get to her files or send me the stuff until the next month. Meanwhile, I was in a bind because I had to submit her grades, in order for her to be eligible for architecture school! Luckily the department chair stood by me, or she wouldn't have been admitted.

(A colleague who tried relying on e-mailed assignments reported that more than a quarter of her students had trouble getting files to attach, or else they used formats which she was unable to open. In the end, it created so many hassles that the class themselves decided that paper would be better.)

[mattclearing]

75. Is your monitor broken?

The "I don't want to print your paper" rationale never made sense to me.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

84. The "I don't want to print my paper" rationale never made sense to me

For one thing, reading the ten-page papers of thirty students is a great way to give one's self eyestrain.

What's wrong with students who want to submit papers electronically? Are their printers broken?

[sendero]

96. I thought you were a progressive...

... don't you want to save the trees? :)

Seriously, I print almost nothing, and read at LOT on the computer. I realize that it is not as "ergonomic" as reading from paper, and I suppose if I had to read 30 papers I'd require a printout.

[mattclearing]

114. No, they just are from now, and don't understand why people print things.

You don't print out every thread you read on DU, do you?

Every article you read?

Every email?

Of course not.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

116. But anything that I'm personally working on, yes

Anything over a couple of pages, yes.

[Lisa]

76. one student submitted his assignment -- on a disk filled with porn!

I swear I'm not making this up. I was searching around, trying to find his paper (because he hadn't picked a logical title like "lab1.doc"), and there was this large file called "ass.gif", and I thought that stood for "assignment". I did wonder why he had scanned the whole page as a graphic instead of just imbedding images in the text ... anyway, after my surprise had diminished and my officemates had stopped laughing at my monitor, I noticed that there were other files with names like "biguns" and "boobies". No, I didn't open those, but luckily I found the correct text file. I didn't know what I'd say to the guy at the next lab, but for some reason he didn't come to class. I guess I missed a classic opportunity for a one-liner about "corrupting files".


p.s. since I'm now teaching at another university, I tell my students about this incident, during my usual spiel about the downside of electronic submissions. I also add that, since I'm on the non-technical side of the social sciences, if I try to write comments on an electronic document, they don't show up on the printout but there's a lot of red Sharpie ink on my screen afterwards.

[Katherine Brengle]

101. I had a couple of professors in college who would let me do this--email

a paper--but only 1) if there was a damn good reason why I couldn't be in class to turn it in, and 2) because they liked me :).

It's not that difficult, if you absolutely have to miss a class, to simply bring the paper to the professor's office and turn it in, lol.

[bluestateguy]

110. Here here!

I will not accept a paper e-mailed to me unless the student has prior permission from me (which I have only granted once). An e-mailed paper will be sent back.

[moc]

20. "Can you do and individual study with me? Your course is scheduled

at a time that is inconvenient for me."

:eyes:

[tenshi816]

30. I especially like your last one,

"I can't believe you gave me a D on this paper. I've always been an A+ student!"

This happens in the UK as well, because over the years A-level exams have gradually been dumbed down (partly because of Tony Blair's conviction that everyone should go to university, when clearly that just isn't so). I went back to uni in 2000 and did a second degree as a "mature" student, and saw a lot of kids who had done well in school - but had a hard time at university because all at once there were a lot more demands placed on them academically than they'd encountered previously.

[SmokingJacket]

48. I had a student say exactly that to me...

I gave him the D (actually, D-) because he invented all his sources, and when I told him I could find no evidence that the sources existed, he told me, "They're all on microfiche."

:eyes:

[knitter4democracy]

51. I had students try that, too.

Of course, I taught high school, so the issues were a bit different, but I usually got some sob story about how they were excellent students before they were in my class and it was all my fault somehow. *sigh* The parents were the worst.

[LuckyLib]

67. I have my standard response here -- "I don't give grades, you earn them."

I only teach graduate students, and I still have to use it when a "shocked" individual reports that she/he has received a first "B."

[knitter4democracy]

69. I used that, too.

They usually would argue that there is some subjectiveness in a grade, which is true. When I grade essays, there is a subjective nature to deciding good writing or not. If there is a subjective part of the grade, that means that they can argue that the teacher has a vendetta or doesn't like their writing style out of personal reasons (yes, I had that one).

I made sure that every student could work for an "A" in my classes, but they never wanted to do the work I required, hence the whining.

[LuckyLib]

97. I reply that all grading (evaluation) is subjective. Whether

the instructor designs the 300 multiple choice items or the essay question or the assignment, or is reading essays and papers,it's all subjective. I attempt to examine whether or not a student has demonstrated engagement and attention to the material and content of the course. Based on my professional experience and judgment. That's what I'm paid for. My entertainment of grade complaints never lasts longer than 30 seconds. "Grades are not grievable, thank you. Have a nice day." With any luck, you're backed by your administration and its the end of the issue.

[tenshi816]

53. Good God, now that's a special kind of stupid.

"They're all on microfiche." HAHAHAHAHA

[acmejack]

3. I never considered the ramifications of the easy availability of email

Must make it rough on the Profs...

[malaise]

82. I accept no email from undergraduates

I have over 100 students in both my UG classes and will not go there. A few students do send email but I keep my university email addy on my office computer so they can't bother me at home.

We have a computer link up system for students and I give them an hour a week to raise problems plus my office hours.

[Iris]

85. more than adequate. (imo!)

[Katherine Brengle]

104. Both sensible and harsh...

When I was working on my undergrad degree, I kept a useful electronic correspondence with several professors and found it helpful. Of course, this might not fall under what you are talking about, as these were generally more on a personal-intellectual level than on a student-teacher level.

I think that due to the large mass of dinks that can now afford to go to college despite their mental limitations for a higher education, a lot of professors don't give undergrads much respect.

Maybe a lot of them aren't due a great deal (at least within the confines of an intellectual setting), but I still find the trend troubling. Universities should be hotbeds of intellectual experimentation and excitement--when professors don't want to interact with students, this kind of environment cannot truly be fostered...

[malaise]

111. I have a wonderful relationship

with most of my undergraduates. We set clear rules at the beginning of a semester re plagiarism, cell phones and punctuality. I give them three office hours per week - two set hours and another one by appointment. All my courses have tutors (and I conduct four tutorial sessions a week myself) so I see no need to facilitate an email assault from 200 plus students. My own work would be neglected if I went down that road.

I have a lot of respect for all my students who understand that respect is earned not guaranteed.

I am thesis supervisor for a few MPhil and doctoral candidates so my graduate students can email me as often as they wish.

[elehhhhna]

4. Sheesh. Kids today. Can't they just lie about a car accident/concussion

as the reason for missing (& rescheduling) a final? Worked for me, no harm done. lol

[Craig3410]

5. Yeah, until the teachers ask which tire went flat...

:D

[elehhhhna]

8. "All of them!" I said through tears. lol

[marions ghost]

6. Spoiled brats...sorry, tough luv needed

At least when students were sticking their ridiculous requests for special treatment under the professor's door or in the office mailbox, the note might get lost or somehow disappeared.

These spoiled kids need a lesson in responsibility and their parents are leaving it to the professors to do that. Profs receiving such an email should put it in their student's file, in case there are any further challenges. These kinds of requests are insulting and it's best to tell the students early on that sending these will have a negative effect on their evaluation. The remarkable thing is that you have to actually make this point to them.

My favorite such inappropriate Prayer for Judgement Continued that I ever got went:

"Sorry I missed the test. I tried very hard hard to get there, but unfortunately I arrived afterward."

(Future spin doctor for the Repuglican Party?)

[Cats Against Frist]

7. I had one problem with e-mail, as a grad assistant

and that was that, somehow, since one doesn't have to face his or her teacher, one is more likely to question his or her grade. I had one kid bug me, for a while, to change his grade -- from an A- to an A. He wrote long, creative e-mails, that were entertaining, but I wasn't going to change it, no matter what.

The problem is -- teachers don't get to use their potential informalities, while the students do. If I could have, I would have told the kid to take some downers with a slug of SoCo, and go enjoy his weekend. He had ample opportunity to follow the syllabus, and show up on time, and do the work. Other than that, he was a good student, and a very good writer -- but I already always want to give everyone "As," because it's poetry -- I have to have some reason to take off a few points here and there.

[sinkingfeeling]

9. The informality of e-mails has entered the business world as well.

Some new-hires think it's just fine to take their complaints directly to the very top, bypassing layers of management in between. The use of 'Mr.' or 'Ms.' has gone by the wayside, along with proper business attire.

[NuttyFluffers]

31. aaaiiiyyyeee! you serious!? my catholic training makes me cringe!

no longer catholic, but still, it ingrained into propriety, modicum of respect, protocol, critical thinking, and above all a sense of class and professionalism. such behavior would be unthinkable to me. and now that i'm studying japanese it's nigh the same in terms of cultural expectations. your comments chill me, i hear the wailing of nuns in the distance...

[AZCat]

39. It's a rarity in my industry.

Engineers have been mostly successful mixing the internet and design, but the one area that has not improved (and may be worse) is the actual writing of communications. Grammar is horrible, spelling is inconsistent (even with advanced spell-checkers) and most emails I receive have dispensed with any sort of protocol. The recipient is not addressed in half of them - the email just begins with the body of the message.

Ugh.

[Lorien]

55. Sounds like the kind of emails I get from my Art Directors

I freelance for some large corporations, and I'm constantly astonished by the often incoherent emails I get from those I report to. Bad grammar, terrible spelling, and rarely addressed or signed. Makes me feel like a dusty old relic for my formality.

[Fleshdancer]

10. a student accidentally emailed me the other day....

She confused my email address with her professor's address and wrote the most ridiculous message and now I wish I saved it to show you. In it, she explains that she has missed several classes throughout the semester due to family problems and even though the prof doesn't allow make-up tests, she was hoping to either be an exception to the rule of have the prof give her extra credit work so that she could pass the course. The message was very informal and littered with IM short hand.

I wrote her back letting her know she had the wrong address and then I added something along the lines of "It is none of my business of course, but as a general rule, if you are going to ask a professor for special treatment you may want to be more formal in your request if you want to be taken seriously. Also, run your email through spell check before sending it."

I expected a "fuck you!" response but she never wrote back. I felt snotty writing it, but someone had to tell her, right? I felt like such a mom though. I hope when my daughter starts college (before that actually) she understands the concept of respect and that a professor isn't a friend or someone who is paid to care.

Part of me wonders if students are a little too coddled in high school. It is a bit weird to be 17 and have to raise your hand to go to the bathroom or receive a "tardy" for being 5 seconds late to class and then turn 18 and expected really understand that no one is going to bug your for your homework or call your parents when your grades are sliding.

[Lisa]

11. I had a student last term, who claimed that his paper was late ...

... because I hadn't called his house the day before, to remind him to bring it to class. He claimed that this is what used to happen in high school! (I'm kind of sceptical, because I know that most high school teachers are way too busy to call their students at home like this ...)

[rodeodance]

35. you have got to be kidding!

[Maddy McCall]

15. Here are some subject headings straight from my inbox:

I'm changing nothing. This is just as they appear in my inbox.

1) HAVE YOU GRADED MY PAPER?!

2) Question about the assignments!!

3) Test conflict.I can't be in class today.

And from "sexeebootiegrrl:"

4) Can I rewright my paper?

[Hatalles]

16. Hehe.

Do the e-mails improve in relation to class level? Do you have third-year/fourth-year students sending you these kinds of e-mails? :)

[JVS]

21. You know, sexeebootiegrrl has a faculty counterpart.

When I was in a class once someone decided to create an email account posing as Dr. Chadam with the handle [e-mail]

The class list regularly recieved emails about subjects such as "I think that I could manage to wear a tighter set of jeans. I can still bend my knees somewhat in these" Eventually a Chadam dance was developed and one week after this address had sent out a notice that we would have a singing contest in the 10 minute break between the 2 50 minute lectures. People came prepared to sing and the highlight of the break was Vikram Sundararamen and his lovely cover of "The Greatest Love of All"

[rodeodance]

34. they sound familiar to the ones I get.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

38. LMAO!

We are so screwed. :rofl:

[rodeodance]

37. yes, you are right about this.

....Part of me wonders if students are a little too coddled in high school. It is a bit weird to be 17 and have to raise your hand to go to the bathroom or receive a "tardy" for being 5 seconds late to class and then turn 18 and expected really understand that no one is going to bug your for your homework or call your parents when your grades are sliding.

[Kerrytravelers]

44. Yes. They are too coddled in high school.

When I first started teaching, it was a 7th and 8th grade English assignment. Oh my, the nonsense I heard everyday just aged me.

I insisted that all final papers be done in blue or black ink and in cursive (if you write like an adult, perhaps you'll start thinking and acting like an adult.) Oh, you would have thought I was whipping these kids with a cane. The outcry was unparalleled. The administration backed me and they had to find something else.

The parents could not see hat was wrong with pink ink or pencil. Unbelievable. Look at it this way: I had six classes of thirty-five kids each. That is about 210 kids, give or take a few. Now, if each kid turns in a three page paper (that length was also an issue,) then think about how many pages i was reading. At least 630 pages. I would go blind if I let the pink ink and pencil continue.

I was always getting notes like, "Can my child take their spelling pre-test in pencil?" I sent a note home with very clear instructions- no more questions regarding what is the proper writing utensil. If you kid would listen in class, they would know. Period.

My favorite is the parent who became I outraged because I questioned whether her kid was writing his own papers or not. In class, this kid could barely complete a sentence. But, when papers were due, he was writing better than me- and I have a Masters in Writing. How can anyone defend that? It's not like mom and dad were these gifted writers... so hum.... what would YOU think? :eyes:

Everything must be questioned and argued against. I can not believe these people who have no training or education in the field of education or child development and still, they want to tell you how to do your job. I made it clear to parents: yell at me on my job, and I'll come yell at you on yours. Stay-at-home parent? I'll stand on your sidewalk and yell. Come in here and try to dictate to me how to do my job? Expect me to do the exact same to you. Funny how all the noise quieted down. They thought I was crazy enough to do it, too!

Gee, I wonder why 85% of teachers change careers and leave teaching forever within the first 5 years. I know I'm barely hanging on as I make a career change.



(Please pardon any bad grammar. I didn't get good sleep and it is a message board... not a final paper!) :hide:

[Fleshdancer]

49. I would quit teaching too if I had to deal with that crap!

Coming from a family that was big on personal responsibility, accountability and consequences for one's own actions, I HATED being coddled in high school. Many of the other students seemed to need it though...or at least expect it. My parents stopped going over my homework once I started middle school (unless I came to them with a specific question of course) and they would never think to argue with my teacher on my behalf because I didn't listen to directions or "forgot" to do an assignment. That's insane. For me though, I had teachers make nosy comments to me regarding who I was dating or what I did outside of school which went way beyond the acceptable relationship. I remember thinking how I didn't need or want another mother. Then again, my school was small and everyone was in everyone else's business. Drove me nuts!

The problem with treating a 15 yr old like a 5 yr old is that they get out into the real world and reality kicks the living crap out of them. A professor isn't paid to care if you have your shit together and a boss is paid to fire you if you don't have your shit together...the exact opposite of coddling! Parents end up doing more harm than good in the situations you described and it makes it harder for everyone involved.

[knitter4democracy]

56. I did.

I taught for three years and quit when I had my daughter. I was at college prep Catholic schools, and I just couldn't take the constant attacks anymore. According to my contract, I had to give out my home phone number (!), so I got calls at 11:30 at night and six in the morning. I had parents come in to argue the grade on a paper without having their children there (seniors in high school, mind you), and then they got angry when I asked who wrote it.

I did everything I could to treat my students as the almost college students they were, and I got nothing but grief for it. Yes, I occasionally showed mercy, but those were for very good reasons and usually not even asked for. In my second and last school, I was harrassed by the principal for everything the kids could concoct--they didn't like me, as I was "too hard" and so would report me to the principal daily for whatever they thought would work to get me fired. That made me quit at the end of the year. I was strong and stuck it out until then, but I was pregnant and not in the mood to fight for a worthless job.

[Kerrytravelers]

59. My whole approach was to prepare them for the real world.

I am really a softie at heart. I had a parent come to me and let me know their child had OCD. Believe me, I completly understand that, in this case, sometimes he might be tardy to class because he had to walk a certain way or his mind couldn't settle. I NEVER marked him tardy. I had several ELL (English Language Learners) in my classroom- all Spanish speakers in my case. I understand that when learning a new language, confusing some of the spelling and grammar is a natural learning process. I NEVER, NEVER, NEVER held their language learning as marks against them, even though, by the Ed Code, I was able to grade against them with those mistakes. I always corrected the grammar and spelling and let them take a second attempt, often extending their deadlines so they could get additional assistance from me, usually on my prep or lunch breaks. It was my choice to do so and I actually loved helping these kids. I also had some kids in unstable home environments. All they had to do was slip me a note as they walked in the room that there was chaos in the home last night and I always rewored deadlines and expectations for them. (These were kids that were noted by the school counselor or, being that it was my hometown and I had connections to many of the families,information that I had that thre was definetly stuff beyond the kid's control goin on around them.)

I am able to work with people. But at the same time, I wanted these kids to start being independent and to begin growing up. They were 12 and 13, and I took that into account. But for Heaven's sake, some of the whining was just nothing but noise.

However, there were the parents who thanked me for doing my job. They could see their kid mature. My process was very thought out. My intention was to teach them to think and act like an adult, to be responsible and to take pride in their work.

Unfortunately, we are raising a generation of two of kids who, at least a large portion of, feel they are entitled to coddling and will suffer a huge surprise when faced with someone like me (and others here, I can tell) in the "real world."

A living example of what I had to deal with: Our pResident, king george.

:scared:

[SemiCharmedQuark]

77. Thank you.

As I go through my depression (which I have been hospitalized for) I never would have survived without professors like you. I only had one professor who made me feel like shit. I'm saddened by some of the vitrol in this thread.

I have asked teachers whether they would suggest a binder or a notebook...in person, not by email. This is not because I can't shop for myself, but because some classes have many many handouts and some are mostly handwritten notes. Binders are great for handouts, but looseleaf tends to be torn out accidentally. Notebooks don't fall apart as easily, but if there are many handouts, it can get messy. I feel awful thinking some professor is calling me stupid because I asked that.

I understand the underlying complaint, believe me. I work part time at a movie theater. We have a student discount with a valid student ID. For the 3 years that the theater has been open, the recording has said that the student must have a valid student ID and signs have been posted all over the box office. We always let people slip by though. However 1 year ago, we started warning people that next time we would charge them the full price if they didn't have an ID. Six months ago, we started warning people more sternly. Three months ago, we started charging full price to people we know we had warned before. Last month we started charging full price to anyone who did not have their ID with them. Now, if a parent comes up to me and says that they want 2 adults, 3 students or whatever, I take their word for it. I don't think a parent should have to be responsible for their kids' ids, especially if they are college IDs. Last weekend, we had a group of kids come in. I know these kids have been warned about their IDs before. They are seniors in high school. They didn't have their ID so they got charged full price (not by me, but I would have done the same). A few hours later, the mother of one comes in demanding to speak with the manager. She demanded the discount! She said her son was very embarrassed that he had to pay full price. It's $1.50 for pity's sake. Also, if I were her son, I'd be more embarrassed that my mother was still fighting my battles at 18 years old. She isn't the only one. I get screamed at all the time for doing my job. Parents even yell at me because I wouldn't sell their kid tickets to an R-rated movie and they had to drive down and buy the ticket for them.

Anyway, back to the point. Your post made me feel better. I still feel lousy that some professor is laughing at what a fool I am for asking that. It makes me wonder which questions are ok to ask.

[Kerrytravelers]

98. You are welcome.

I never wanted any of my students to learn the hard way- in college- life lessons that may cost them big time. It's better to learn it from me, where mistakes can be fixed much, much, MUCH easier!

PM me if you need anything every--- got that?!?! :)

[SemiCharmedQuark]

99. Thanks again

:)

[progressivebydesign]

72. I'm shocked at how easy my stepdaughter's work in high school is..

I'm kind of freaked out at the idea that she will somehow be prepared to go to a university in a few years, based on the work she's getting now. For a biology class (which she's not in), her friends are moving up to a regional science fair because of their project involving "which conditioner works best on our hair". Yes.. high school biology. The two girls tried different conditioners for 2 weeks and reported on it. Another girl's project was "How your hair color dictates your color preferences". I'm very, very worried about the future.

[JohnLocke]

103. Uh, in cursive?

Why? I always either print or type, simply to make it easier to read (I have ppor handwriting). Writing in cursive seems to be pointless. I always hated it whenever I was forced to write it.

(I can, however, understand the rule on blue or black ink).

[Kerrytravelers]

108. Because I was tired of the hearts over the "i" and "j' and

anything with a dot. I was tired of all the cute "matching handwriting' that girls that age love to do. It was driving me nuts. And, they had to concentrate more on their handwriting that way.

And, it worked.

[Craig3410]

13. Geez; why bother?

Most classes have a class size numbering in the triple digits (not me so far; just two classes out of 10 :)) and the only time I email my teachers is to a) bring their attention to something interesting persuant to whatever we're going over, b) when I need help understanding something, or c) there's a half-foot of snow on the ground and I'll have trouble getting there.

It's not hard to ask a fellow classmate for help and if you're going to email the professor AS A LAST RESORT, for god's sake, proofread the damn thing; just think about what you would think if you were the professor and you got an email reading "hey i need hlep in the clas, wat time r u free?"

[alcibiades_mystery]

23. I save all course related emails

Never know when a lawsuit might jump up!

Here are a few subject lines. Notice that most of them are appropriate and informative (I've deleted the course number):

1) project proposal for English ***
2) English *** Proposal Memo
3) Project Proposal Memo
4) English *** Midterm
5) Yo Yo English Midterm
6) English *** Take-home Midterm

And from this semester's class:

1) paper topic
2) A question for English +++
3) Hello
4) missed class today My comment: Thanks, I noticed
5) Tuesday's class

And on and on. I think it's easy to pick out the bad ones. Too many teachers have the bad habit of ragging on their students for fun. There are other businesses to be in if you don't like dealing with students, you know? In any case, I love 'em, even when they're "DID YOU GRADE MY PAPER YET????" The answer is usually, of course, no (even if I have!).

[Bozita]

25. If you are a student, you need to read this entire thread

They're wise to you.

[rodeodance]

36. actually I tought in a Univ for 7 years

so I can attest to getting simiar emails.

[LuckyLib]

68. Absolutely. I'm having my senior in high school read it. While

she might not "hear" my advice, she'll certainly hear all of these voices!

[Azathoth]

26. Professors Schultens and Worley are both morons

Including their stories undercuts the theme of the article. There is no question that immature, disrespectful, abusive, and downright stupid emails pose a valid problem for professors, but it is also true that some professors are conceited, petty, and neurotic in their approach to students. Professor Schultens, who apparently faced an existential moral crisis when a freshmen student sent her an email asking for advice on what course materials should be purchased, is a classic example. Any decent, thoughtful person who read an email like the one she received would have immediately realized that (1) the author was young, inexperienced, and likely bewildered (as are most freshmen), (2) the email was polite and written in good faith, and (3) the student clearly had no idea who else to ask for help. Such a person would also have recognized that it is not outside the realm of decency or propriety for a student to ask their professor what type of materials they recommend purchasing for a particular course. (A professor who relies primarily on handouts would certainly recommend a binder). A decent, thoughtful professor would have replied with a two-sentence email to the student: the first sentence would have told the student what materials to purchase, and the second sentence would have advised the student to seek the help of a peer adviser/academic counselor/etc if he/she needed further advice in shopping for school. Such a response would have taken 30 seconds to write, would have in no way compromised the professional relationship between professor and student, and would no doubt have made the transition to college just a little bit easier for the student. Professor Schultens, on the other hand, resolved her moral dilemma by simply ignoring the student, and then sharing her tale of woe with the NYT.

For some reason, it comes as little surprise to me that the two jerkoffs in the article, Schultens and Worley, are also the only two who mugged for photos.

[JVS]

28. Yeah Worley is ego-tripping

"Meg Worley, an assistant professor of English at Pomona College in California, said she told students that they must say thank you after receiving a professor's response to an e-mail message.

" 'One of the rules that I teach my students is, the less powerful person always has to write back,'" Professor Worley said.

[NuttyFluffers]

32. O_o oh my god, my etiquette meter just blew a fuse.

i couldn't even imagine not sending at least a thank you e-mail to my professor who took the time to reply to me. i may be bad at vigilance for thank you notes, but it was one thing that was ingrained into me that you always say thank you when someone in a position of higher power/rank/status offers you a favor, even if it just an answer to a simple question. and if it turned out that the communicat was in written form it is in best form to return the gesture in kind. hell, i tried to maintain giving thank you notes to customers when i was in direct sales, even if they rejected my pitch. they didn't have to give me the time of day, but the fact that they did brought a sense of obligation to show appreciation for their thoughtfulness.

professor worley is wholly correct in my, and just about every person i associate in real life here in SF bay area, view when we discuss topics of tact and gentility. maybe it has to do with so many people here being immigrants, ex-pats, regular travelers, etc that i end up associating with. maybe i've never really acculturated to the 'real' america?

... as time goes by i begin to realize i'm not really made out for modern america. i think it is best that i'm planning to go ex-pat and not really return anytime soon. i think i am culturally out of sync of modern america. it is too informal, impolite, imposing, and ungrateful for my tastes. etiquette, culture, tact, and class seem too far gone in everyday interaction. i'm a relic, i'm better off in japan, or anywhere else, i guess.
:(
off to starch my crinolines and handwash my doilies.:hide:

[SmokingJacket]

54. But if someone of a lower "rank" does something, you don't thank them?

My idea of etiquette is treating *everyone* with the same respect. That's what bugged me about that remark.

Being more deferential to people in power than to your neighbor is, in my opinion, digusting.

[JVS]

90. If there's one thing America needs, it's to become more deferential...

to authority! Lick them boots, America! ;-)

[NuttyFluffers]

112. yes, but the thanks is different.

when a child fetches me a drink i naturally say thank you. but i don't receive the item in the same manner, nor do i express my appreciation exactly the same. in the drink example, if my friend's parents offered it to me i'd probably end up trying to receive the drink with both hands, say a full 'thank you,' and might end up doing a little bow (it's literally second nature now, after so much bowing in the department, etc.). if i receive it from a child, i might use two hands to stabilize it, but otherwise might receive it one-handed, more likely to say 'thanks,' and almost never do a little head bow.

i cannot imagine treating everyone with an exactly equally expressed form of respect. you treat everyone with respect, of course, but the measure and the form is dependent upon the target. like, would you offer to carry a load of groceries for a big burly man as equally as a frail looking elderly lady? when you hold open a door for someone, but still have somewhere to get to on time, do you enter first, yet hold it open a bit as you pass for people who are perfectly healthy and just behind you? or do you always hold it, stand aside, and wait for them to pass, regardless to gender, age, health condition, etc.

and dealing with social status, i find that religious vocationed people (regardless denom), educators, and a few other occupations (if they are obviously attired as such or already known to me individually) receive special consideration. they are to be revered members of society because they offer such a rich contribution to the stability of the social fabric that they necessitate appreciation of a different calibur (even if i don't partake or even associate with them in any way). note, not all these positions are of higher power as viewed in this society -- teachers being an immediate obvious example (they may not be MY teachers, but they still are teachers, and thus to be treated as such).

edit: i understand the natural bristling to the use of the word "power" that prof. worley used. it's a very loaded word. but in these crass times i don't think there's a faster way to explain to people these days why they should use politeness. i mean, we can talk philosophy why politeness is good, and how it should be applied, but we are apparently in an age that only power, and direct benefit, is immediately understood. sad to say, but the choice of words might be more of a reaction due to the factor of her audience than some sort of power-mad ego.

[marions ghost]

33. I agree your reply would have been

"thoughtful" and all, but once you start doing that, you send the message that you are always available to answer trivial questions and devote your complete attention to junk email. Which then increases. Not answering (in email etiquette) sends the message very clearly that you just don't have that kind of time.

One of the insightful points the article made is that students tend to view themselves as consumers and professors as mere service providers & therefore traditional boundaries of respect have been lost. Fair enough. Many colleges have encouraged this unfortunately. It is a significant problem. And teachers who are willing to talk about this problem will even be called "morons" or "jerkoffs" for it--as you so thoughtlessly label them.

Part of it also is that parents have just coddled these kids to death--you can tell that someone has held their hand in every small decision they have ever made. Their parents need to get a life. They have instilled in their children a narcissistic sense of entitlement. Nipping this in the bud is a gift to society as well.

One of the most practical gifts you can give a student is to teach them how things work in the real world, the cruel world beyond college. As someone posted above, making the clear distinction between childish behavior and adult behavior is the key. The transition to college doesn't need "to be made easier."

[KurtNYC]

46. Not sure I understand this --

Why should a Prof be concerned with whether or not a 19-year-old was "coddled" ? I think students pay for course with the expectations that the Prof will 1) convey their special insights and passion for the subject matter and 2) evaluate and provide feedback to the students solely on how well they learned the required material and performed on the tests. Evaluating their parents' efforts or how perceivedly easy the student's life may have been to that point really should not be part of that equation.

Most of us, I would imagine, have jobs that involve doing a lot of things which aren't part of the job description; the every-day frustrations and accomodations that we must make for other human beings. If I went running to the NYT with MY petty complaints I would be fired and rightly so. Is it really so traumatic for this Prof to have to write back a one word email that simply says: "Binder" or "notebook" ?

[marions ghost]

58. Your question points directly to the

lack of understanding of what the job of professor often involves. So thanks for the question. It is not unusual.

The reality is that professors (and all teachers) are often in the position of imparting wisdom that goes beyond course specifics. When students have not been taught the basics of how to interact in adult ways and they resort to childish strategies to gain favor, it is very transparent behavior and you do them NO favor to encourage it. Yes, it is harder for professors to teach students from coddled backgrounds where they have learned that every adult must cater to them. I once had a student go through a whole box of kleenex crying and demanding that her grade be changed from an A- to an A. It was a full-fledged tantrum. But a barrage of demanding emails can be just as bad.

I would like to see more attention given to this topic at freshmen orientation and parents' visitation opportunities, addressing it directly. Also instructors should always explain their expectations for adult-level social interaction at the same time as they convey course requirements. This gives the student the chance to wise up and not even make such pathetic attempts by email or otherwise. It would be great if the students came in with a mature attitude and respect for teachers, but increasingly they don't. No, it's not all the parents' fault, but some of it is and to deny this component doesn't help.

Professors appreciate students who take a mature approach and don't try to worm special treatment(the cases where special treatment is deserved are obvious--we're only talking about those that aren't). The strict business model (I paid my money for a service) doesn't always work. All too often the students don't understand their part of the bargain--to do things on time and to take the consequences if they fail to do so.

It can sometimes be hard for those who have never done this kind of teaching to understand that if you don't set some boundaries you allow yourself to be run ragged by immature students on trivial concerns--instead of giving them quality time on the issues that do matter. In a lot of ways it boils down to a time management thing which does fit the business model. If you don't believe this is a problem for people who work in academia talk to some professors these days. Whether these women in the article had the right to talk to the Times or not is besides the point. They were correct to bring up the topic.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

86. My "strict business approach" was

1. You get one day of sick leave for each credit hour this course is worth, no questions asked. However, after that, you'll get a zero for the day unless you have a dean's excuse for serious illness or a family emergency, so don't waste your "sick leave" on non-emergencies.

2. Don't do anything that would get you fired from a paying job.

[EFerrari]

41. Bingo. n/t

[KurtNYC]

45. Azathoth - you nailed it

I had similar thought about the student asking about binder versus subject notebook. If that is the worst thing that Prof can come up with 1) they have it easy and 2) they really need to get over themselves.

[SmokingJacket]

52. I actually agree with you.

The final remark bothered me: "One of the rules that I teach my students is, the less powerful person always has to write back," Professor Worley said.

Whose rule is that??

I would say that spoiled, inadequately prepared students definitely exist. But arrogant and condescending professors are a problem, too.

[northzax]

81. it may be a bad rule, but it's a rule of the world

if you apply for a job, say. And they email you, you should write them back and simply say "thank you for your response" if nothing else. If you want something from someone, you are inherently less powerful, and it's a good habit to get into.

[SmokingJacket]

88. It's a rule I disagree with on principle, though.

Treat ALL people with respect and politeness, not just those you "want something" from.

[northzax]

89. well, of course, but in a world

in which people don't send thank you notes any more (I am as guilty of that as anyone, to my mother's deep chagrin) sometimes you have to teach the lesson somehow. I bet she regrets the wording of that statement now, or at least I hope she does.

[SmokingJacket]

92. I was forced to write thank you notes as a kid, now I can't seem to

make myself do it. I like to thank in person or on the phone.

As for thanking people for a job interview, I've never done that. It's seems desperate and butt-licky, but maybe that explains why I'm terminally self-employed... ;-)

[JVS]

91. It's especially disgusting that a major gripe of the piece is...

profs get too much useless crap email, but please remember to send us a useless crap email to thank us because it inflates our egos

[SmokingJacket]

93. I like you! nt

[distantearlywarning]

115. LOL!

How true, how true...

:D

[JohnLocke]

107. I agree.

Good post.

:yourock:

[Hissyspit]

29. self-delete

[seg4527]

40. i occasionally e-mail my professors

I go to the University of Minnesota, and most of the classes I've taken have been over 100 people. In fact, this semester I have two classes with 150-200, and last semester I had a class with 500. So it was often impossible to talk to professors in class. In the 500 seater, I sat in the "upper deck" of the auditoriom, so it's not like I could raise my hand.

Although it's very rare. Usually one a semester. And never anything stupid. And because I do go to the second biggest campus in the US, professors usually encouraged kids to e-mail them, since it's hard to really stand out in a class that's that big.

[Nickster]

47. It's amusing reading all the stories in this thread. I'm 34 and a full

time student, so I get to see alot of these stories in action.

As an example,I hear the students constantly complain because they can't get tutoring on a one on one basis. On the other hand, I chat with the teachers in the commons area and hear how they are constantly being pounded by the students to do tutoring that the teachers are not getting paid for.

I've heard plenty of whines about emails to teachers that didn't get read or acted upon quickly enough. One time in class the teacher asked a particular whiner if they had identified themselves, the class number, etc. in the email. The student looked so amazed that a teacher might have more than one class or more than one "Mary" to deal with as she admitted that she hadn't identified herself well in the email. This particular teacher states flat out, that if you don't address your emails in a certain way, he will simply delete them and he did that with the whiner. Being former military, I can relate well with this teacher.:-)

Very interesting perspective I have as a full time student now, I'm half way between the students and the faculty.

[electron_blue]

57. I actually like the round the clock email. Of course, I'm not up at 3am

reading them, but I like that they can write when it's convenient to them. Of course, you are right about the misspellings, the informalities and such.

Electronic communication is only going to be a growing part of the working world and it's a skill college students need to hone while in college. To that end, I'm happy to help them learn.

Last semester one student sent me a very inappropriate email, stating what he expected out of me and that what I did was not acceptable. I thought this was a totally incorrect use of email - I printed it out and sent it to the dean and suggested he use this as a learning moment for the student. It's clear that the groundrules aren't laid out for electronic communication.

For the most part, I'd say what I get from students in email is respectful. The grammar and spelling really is lacking, I agree, but it's not much better in handwritten or typed work, either.

Of course - some classes are entirely online nowadays. Anyone ever done that? Did you have to establish "netiquette" at the beginning?

[Kerrytravelers]

60. I'm taking my first online class right now.

I did a search on my professor and found she actually gives lectures for other professors on how to effectively maintain an online class. It was extremly helpful in knowing what she expected.

For the class, she made it very clear that she doesn't repond to every email unless there is a direct need to do so. She gave a rough time estimate that she wuold grade our assgnments. She comes across as knowledgabe, approachable, but not someone who is going to take kindl to 10,000 emails about why you coputer doesn't work. You have the syllabus, the deadlines and you can work ahead if you like. Its that simple.

At first, I wasn't sure I'd like an online class, but now that I've had a chance to start it, I really do! It's something I may want to teach at some point.


P.S. Edited to add that I totally take advantage of the Check Spelling button for my online class! I do want to leave a good impression!

[progressivebydesign]

73. My stepdaughter just witnessed two college students fighting in class.

After exchanging vulgarities, one turned a sprayer hose on the other one in the classroom. Both were sent home for the day. Many of her friends consider community college "high school with ash trays". Except for the heavy drinking in the universities, I'd say they're all about the same now.

[Katherine Brengle]

106. I found college to be much like high school--just add booze and

PhDs...

It was a ridiculous waste of time for the most part, unfortunately. I had some really great professors, but most of the students were complete wastes of oxygen.

[NuttyFluffers]

113. i've always loved "returning adult" students

somehow the older students, usually the above 30 ones, especially the late 30/ early 40 students, take no "jr high/high school" crap AT ALL in the classes i've been in. i've seen them actually stand up and dress down unruly college students, and even give them an ultimatum to behave or leave, just like a parent to a spoiled child. oooh, you'd be stunned how fast that class straightens up. oddly enough, many of these older students have kids themselves... might be a correlation there ;)

normally the older students ask the students nicely outside of class to please tone it down, trying to learn, paying my own good money, etc. but if it doesn't work, or things escalate, these students have had no qualms about laying down the law. something about an older adult, who knows how to get things done in the real world, backing up the teacher -- and ready to kick ass and take names -- made the troublesome ones fly right real fast and all through the course. very much a "you may wanna act like an ass and waste everyone's time, but not with my money, my time, my future, and my work you won't" experience. one of the reasons that i ended up loving night classes. :loveya:

[distantearlywarning]

61. I don't know. I have mixed feelings about this.

Let me preface this by saying that I am a grad student, a TA, and I have taught undergrads to write for several years now.

I personally don't feel like my students owe me anything (like a "thank you" to an email, for instance) because I have higher rank than them. In fact, the very thought of that makes me uncomfortable. My job is to teach them skills, not to be the ruler-of-the-TA-universe lording it over them socially. I doubt that my attitude on that subject will change much when I am a professor, other than that I will expect them at that point to call me Dr. DistantEarlyWarning, rather than by my first name.

As far as the email thing goes, I am FAR more comfortable with that medium than any other undergraduates might want to use, including a note or the telephone. If they email me at an inappropriate time, I just ignore it until I feel like reading it. Email is an informal medium, so I expect informal language (although the grammar and spelling thing is irritating at times). I don't get bent out of shape about that. Interestingly, though, my much-older-than-I graduate advisor does, and as a grad student I have to be very careful about my formality when I write him emails or he gets upset. And to be honest, I think his attitude is a little stuffy and egotistical. (God, I hope he never reads this!) To me, formal manners are one thing, email is another. But maybe its my age and generation. Email to me is a quick method of communication - that's all. There's no need to make up pointless social rules about it.

I also prefer to grade papers in electronic format because I get less carpal tunnel commenting on their appalling writing via MSWord embedded comments than with a red pen. In fact, I was just thinking this week that next semester I might require electronic submission only, rather than paper-based submissions. Again, this might be a generational thing. But I do expect them to follow instructions, so if I tell them to give me a printed copy and they send it to me electronically, I would be very annoyed.

The overall point, though, that this article is making, is valid, I think. Far too many undergraduates I have interacted with are self-absorbed, have a gigantic sense of entitlement about many aspects of their lives, and worst, have no idea how to really work. They're lazy. And they can't write. And they get angry if you point this out to them. It's like nobody ever criticized them or told them no in their entire lives, and they just fall apart when it happens to them in college. They absolutely expect to get As, but have no intention of working to that level, and they throw fits when that plan doesn't work out for them. Many of them are really very spoiled and naive (not all, though). It's a scary thing when you think about the fact that 20 years from now these immature, lazy kids are going to be running this country...

[marions ghost]

79. I think you're right

to point out the difference between email and a formal letter. A short email message is equivalent to a quickly scrawled note and I wouldn't require it be painstakingly correct either. The point is communication. As long as they aren't making undue requests or offering lame excuses, I really don't care about format, as long as I can read the thing. It's possible the professor who requires correctness is (consciously or otherwise) setting up a little spam blocker in order to separate the wheat from the chaff. :evilgrin: He may have found it cuts down significantly on the amount of garbage emails he gets.

I'm not with you on the e-papers as my eyes bug out after scrolling for hours but paper or electronic format should be professor's choice --to be respected without question.

You summed up exactly the picture with a lot of these immature students. I'm sorry if "coddled" or "spoiled" offends people--I don't know what else to call it. Parents who are not indulgent are giving their children a gift, their teachers a gift, and society a gift. Some of these kids are smart and DO get the message in college, and some don't. I think the ones that get it WILL be the leaders of this country one day, with any luck. We've had enough indulged, narcissistic cheaters at the helms of power lately.

[northzax]

83. of course you don't think your students owe you a thank you

but, if they email you and ask a favour of some sort, which would be the most common email, I think, and you respond, you would expect them to say thank you, right? I think that's the behaviour Whorely was trying to instruct, since it's been lost.

I'm a grad student as well (part time) and my professors urge us to email with any sorts of questions/comments, and they did while I was an undergrad as well. Of course, I went to a small school where everyone knew your name by the second week of class. And yes, I did get into trouble for an inappropriate email once, I had a sig line that I forgot to delete when I emailed my Econ professor. (now, this was the spring of 1994, so email was new to most people, although it was stupid since I'd been on email since 1990, my high school was big on it) my sig line was a henry rollins quote "If you don't agree with me, that's ok, you're wrong" I made a habit of deleting it when emailing professors and forgot to. She sent me a reply dressing me down for it, ccing the dean (I later learned she had been stalked by a student the previous year before I got there) I emailed her back and asked if I could come talk to her during her next office hours and explain. I also sent her, ccing the Dean, a formal, on paper, apology for my mistake.

the next year she was my advisor, so I guess it worked out.

on edit:

I also had a grad school professor who said, "look, I'm never at home, and I'm never in my office. If you send me an email to my blackberry, any time of the day or night, I will get back to you as soon as possible. Don't worry about the time, I turn it off when I don't want to be bothered."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

87. Oh, yes, the sensitivity to valid criticism!

I had a student who started out doing well but gradually deteriorated over the course of the semester. I pulled her aside after class one day and asked what was going on, and she said, "I'm too busy partying with my friends." I asked her if her friends would be there for her when she flunked out and suggested that she find some more studious friends.

Well, when evaluation time came around, I learned that she not only still hated me for that remark but had griped to the rest of the class, so that the evaluations of six different students expressed indignation that I should have said such things to her.

About 1990 or so, nearly every time I reprimanded a student it was echoed back to me in the evaluations. I was the professor, but apparently I didn't have the right to advise them on their study habits or demand that they sincerely attempt to keep up with the work. :shrug:

I wasn't a completely heartless dragon lady, though. If a student had been working hard and had experienced a genuine setback, I made accommodations.

[knitter4democracy]

117. It starts even earlier.

I had kids do everything they could to attack me with the administration just for critiquing their writing and making them take notes as they read for an AP English class. :eyes: Heaven forfend! They honestly have done too much reader's response and think that all opinions on writing are valid except the ones they don't like. It's very annoying.

[progressivebydesign]

71. And here's how your raise a student like that...

I was meeting with a client recently. There was some moving of furniture that needed to be done in their home, before work could proceed. The client's began arguing about how the furniture was going to get moved. They have two older teen boys living at home, in high school. And.. they apparently host all of their friends at all hours of night, trashing the house. The clients were trying to decide who to hire to move the furniture, etc., because "the boys won't do that". I suggested that they try holding the car keys until they helped clean up the place they trashed, (as a joke), and they said it didn't matter... they just wouldn't help... so they'd have to pay an outsider or perhaps try paying their own children to do it.

THAT is how you raise self-centered, clueless, slacker, students. I see it all the time in my business. Parents who let their kids run wild, and never ask for any contribution to the great good of the house. My favorite is the parent's of my stepdaughter's friends. Almost every one of them has complained repeatedly that they can never get online because their kids spends hours on the family computer instant messaging and playing games. Ummmm... did the word "NO" disappear from the parental vocabulary? Am I the only person that actually requires involvement and cooperation and chores of their high school students?

So.. please.. to the educators who are writing on this thread. I'm trying very hard to send adult-minded, cooperative, responsible, students your way. Right now, I have one in community college. She wakes up every morning at 5am, drives an hour and a half to school, gets 100% on her assignments, and then goes to work until 10pm at night, then drives back an hour and a half (without complaint). The instructors LOVE her because she treats the program at school as though it were a job. Now.. if all parents could instill that in their kids!

[Nickster]

74. Amen. At least some of us are still taking the important things seriously.

Sounds like you did a great job raising your kids.

[Kerrytravelers]

102. Thank you !

Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you. Thank you.

[The Flaming Red Head]

95. Your paper is too well written. You must have plagiarized it.

I got that message on my paper at a college in Arkansas.

I was so mad. I brought in samples of my writing and got an A for the course.

[Katherine Brengle]

105. Well, this is the other side of the equation. Sometimes students are

unprofessional and sometimes professors are rude and distant (i.e., unprofessional).

I've seen so much of both that I don't even know how to react, lol.

What we really need to do is institute some kind of serious testing for college entrance--none of this SAT crap where you can go to Yale with a 980 as long as your grand-daddy when there or whatever. Every student in this country who has the drive and intelligence to warrant additional education should have it, and the dinks who are just paying for a 4 (or 5, or 6, or 7, or 8) year keg party should not be allowed to pursue degrees they are not worthy of.

We've designed a system that inequitably favors the rich--what a surprise...

[Swamp Rat]

100. LOL!

:rofl: ...







:cry:

[bluestateguy]

109. I been teaching for almost 3 years

I tell my students that all e-mail sent to me after 9PM will not be answered until the next day. I like getting e-mail from them because that way I can record all of our correspondence.