Just had a really odd realization. We aren't dealing with rational people.

[converted_democrat]

I was relaxing last night watching some C-Span that I had TIVO'ed.. Grassley got up to discuss a topic, and went off on a tangent that had nothing to do with what was being discussed.. Not a word that came out of his mouth had any reason to it.. Then Kerry got up.. He was reasonable, he was easy to understand, and he stayed on point.. After watching several rotations of Dems and pukes, it hit me.. We aren't dealing with rational people..

I used to be a puke myself, and I guess that's why this really fascinates me.. When I was a puke I would listen to a speech given by a puke, and "have faith" that what I was being told was the truth.. I "had faith" that what was being done was in the nations best interest.. I "had faith" that my government was doing right by me and my tax dollars.. There was little, if any, reason and rationale applied to any of my beliefs, it was all "having faith."

When I became a Dem something changed.. I used reason instead of faith.. I looked at facts for myself, and reasoned through my positions.. I didn't "have faith" that Kerry (just using him for an example) was telling me the truth, I trusted him, but I verified the information. The Dems didn't ask for "faith," they asked for reason.. They explain what 2 is, and why 2+2= 4.. They don't just tell you that the answer is 4 and expect you to believe the conclusion because they say so..

My question is this.. Could it be that we are not really a nation of pukes and Dems, but a nation of reasonable and unreasonable people? Could it be that we are not a nation of two parties, but a nation of two mindsets? Could it be that the reason that Dems can't get the message out in an effective manner to the masses is because we are trying to reason with unreasonable people? (I'm not suggesting that this is the only issue, I do honestly think that the media is unfairly biased to the right.) If this is the case and these people can't be reasoned with, than how do we fit our message to their mindset? How do you sell a reasonable message to unreasonable people? I don't have the answer to that question, but I think it's one that the Democratic Party needs to figure out, and the quicker the better.

[elehhhhna]

1. You may be on to something...

'tho I attribute my Reep neighbors' undying love for Bush to the fact that they get their "news" from Limbaugh on the radio and they're all drunk by the time the real nightly news airs.

[KurtNYC]

2. To me the paradox

is that many RW people are VERY cynical of politicians and big government and yet they have trusted Tom Delay, Bush, Cheney, etc and have created the biggest most intrusive government ever?!

Sometimes I think the best answer for how that happens comes from a Bob Dylan lyric:
"...{they} just want to be on the side that's winning.."

[Arkansas Granny]

14. I think you have something there with wanting to be on the side

that's winning. I'm sure that some of the people I know voted Republican for that very reason.

[seabeyond]

3. excellent post, and i am talking the same things

it is like they are still wishing hoping praying bush will do right......

regardless of facts, regardless of a lifetime of failure from bush

[converted_democrat]

56. Thank you for the compliment...

I don't understand how people can have faith in failure.. Thank you again for the compliment.

[babylonsister]

4. Good post, c_d! As for turning heads in the repug party,

the * admin just did that with the ports issue. We get to sit back and watch the implosion though, as usual, it could effect us all.

[leftofthedial]

5. bingo

welcome to the club

what now passes for "conservatism" and evangelical religion are irrational, delusional world views.

[Inland]

6. Hope and faith have betrayed those republicans.

I can see how hard it is to believe that in this time of trouble--economy, environment, terror, disaster--that our great country is in the hands of craven, selfish, corrupt idiots. It's terrifying. They don't WANT to look at it. Rather, all the arguments are to just stop talking about it.

Me, I think that believing in our country means that we can talk about it, can fix it, need not settle for whatever happens to be ascendent.

[The Backlash Cometh]

7. From indoctrination to critical thinker.

We grow up being indoctrinated one way, and then some of us are lucky enough to meet professors in college who teach you how to be critical thinkers. Then, if you're really lucky, you get in a work environment that rewards creative thinkers. The latter only being useful to society if they have a humanitarian bone in their body.

That's why Republicans don't really want to educate our kids outside of private schools. Private schools indoctrinate. They give people the feeling of false superiority and they teach them cronyism. Public schools occasionally get the rogue professor who will teach kids how to be critical thinkers. But if you make it to a liberal college, it's a sure thing that you will be exposed to critical thinking.

That's why we call Republicans, sheeple. They are raised to follow.

[Richard Steele]

30. I must raise 2 (small) disagreements with your post.

It's not just 'professors in college'
who teach people to be critical thinkers;
many of us have managed to 'wake up'
just by going out and seeing the real world,
and OBSERVING the fact that much of our indoctrination
was simply incorrect.

And many of the oldest and best 'Private Schools'
are NOT 'indoctrinating' students.
Many are known for their LIBERAL teaching of 'Critical Thinking'.
The "Friend's Schools" spring to mind.
Generally rated as among the best private primary educations
in the USA, and hardly a 'sheeple' factory.

[The Backlash Cometh]

37. True, I related my path.

In another world, I was born to be a peasant, if it weren't for the good fortune of a liberal arts education. Actually, my liberal arts college was private. Some professors were liberal, but the students were upper crust kids. So I got to see a clash of cultures.

You are correct, there are good private colleges which are liberal and teach critical thinking.

But, the private schools at the primary and high school levels around here are Christian oriented and DO indoctrinate. It may be different oop North, but in the South, private high schools and elementary schools do indoctrinate and don't do much liberal style critical thinking.

[Richard Steele]

46. We all relate our path- no biggie!

I also can say:
"In another world, I was born to be a peasant, if it weren't for the good fortune of..."
being born in a RARE time and place, where peasants were permitted
to leave the farm and make their own way, like free people do.

[porphyrian]

8. Yes, that's controlling effect of fear tactics.

Irrational people will believe whatever they are told by an authority figure who seems strong, confident and claims to be able to make everything better, despite all evidence to the contrary.

[leftyladyfrommo]

9. So the Nuts got hold of the Nuthouse?

Sure seems that way, doesn't it.

[FormerDittoHead]

10. Yes - we are a nation of two mindsets...

The cornerstone of being a Republican is faith - that's why they can impeach Clinton for lying under oath in a BS politically trumped up lawsuit about something that happened years before his presidency, and then look the other way when their president lies to get us into war.

They get all riled up when they think the Clintons are looking at FBI records, but then support THEIR president when caught red handed breaking the law wiretapping with no legal jusfitication ("we thought it was legal" is NOT a defense!)

There are other elements involved such as racism, religious intolerance, historical revisionism, economic fantasies, distorted / made up "facts", but the cornerstone of it all is faith.

[converted_democrat]

45. "Yes - we are a nation of two mindsets..."

So how do we fix that? How do we change it?

[UncleSepp]

11. I think the people are mostly the same, but the arguments differ

Prolonged exposure to unreason presented as reason (and in the absence of authentic reason) can cause a person to be unable to do anything other than trust and have faith in the very source of the unreason. It doesn't always work that way, but it works often enough to make the technique useful.

I don't believe the people who first started listening to the message of unreason are any different by nature, but their ways of thinking, I believe, have been altered by prolonged and unrelieved exposure to nonsense.

[sam sarrha]

12. actually they are mentally ill, sociopaths every one.. they have developed

a system of Hollow speech that says nothing but works and they use it to make money on everything.. and to Fascists poverty is a vice, so the poor are getting exactly what they deserve every time they can possibly screw them

you need to Google ..'renana brooks and bush'.. she has an excerpt from her book on 'Bush speak', plus lots of other psychological evaluations, how it is the same structure as wife beaters.. .. and Hollow, sounds good says nothing

[Viva_La_Revolution]

22. Why I will not go into Sales. I cannot do Hollow speech. nt

[Bill McBlueState]

13. this is a huge problem

Democrats assume that all we need to do is to beat people over the head with the facts. But many people don't want to hear facts; they want to hear a confirmation of the way they already feel about things. This is what George Lakoff is getting at when he writes about framing. We have to fit our policies and beliefs into the ways people already think.

We *know* that allowing people to marry whomever they want doesn't affect existing marriages. But religious loonies aren't convinced by statistics that confirm that. We have to somehow come up with a way to frame marriage equality in a way that meshes with their existing ideas. I'm not sure exactly how to do that, though, since the hate runs so deep in a lot of those people.

This also comes up in the public debate over evolution and creationism. Scientists think a simple presentation of the facts will win the argument, since that's how scientists are used to thinking. But creationists don't think that way. If they were able to critically evaluate evidence, they wouldn't be creationists in the first place.

[tenshi816]

43. That's why FOX News has done so well,

and Rush, and O'Reilly, Hannity, Coulter, etc. They don't bother with whether something's true or not. They don't have to. All they do is reinforce the worldview their viewers and listeners already hold.

We Dems, as converted_democrat said in the original post, want to know actual facts before we make up our minds. What a concept, eh?

[thereismore]

15. reason versus faith is a good way to put it. I have faith in God, but

I do not have faith in the leader. The repukes have faith in the leader. They have an emotional need for it. They are wired that way. A two-party system really exposes that mindset. Most of them are unreachable.

This is why I think that a constitutional monarchy (U.K.) is the best way to go. The repukes can put the picture of the king in their bedrooms and fill their bookshelves with books on the royal family, while the rational people run the country.

[RagingInMiami]

16. Of course we are not dealing with rational people. They are way out touch

And it's not just the dems and repugs. It's the media.

I was watching the video of Meet the Press with Maureen Dowd and Mary Matalin, and the "journalists" were pissed off because they weren't informed about the Cheney incident in the immediate aftermath. And it went on and on with Matalin saying there was nothing wrong with waiting to tell the media.

But nobody asked why it took so long to report the incident to the local authorities. In a real world, that would seem the most suspicious.

What was the defining moment for you when you switched parties?

[converted_democrat]

23. I'm not sure that there was a "defining moment" for me..

I grew up in an ultra conservative household, and when I left home I started to change.. I saw for myself that everything that I had been taught didn't stand up in reality.. It was like a slow transformation if you will.. The 2004 election is when I "woke up," but I hadn't been a hard right winger for sometime at that point.

[EVDebs]

26. You just learned what true freedom really means. George Orwell said it

George Orwell: "Freedom is the freedom to say that two plus two make four. If that is granted, all else follows"

You just came to a realization that the Republicans weren't really FREE people; right now they're saying 2+2=3 and no one in their right mind is buying into it.

[Lerkfish]

17. I call it a lack of critical thinking.

Critical thinking requires you to mentally test what you're hearing BEFORE you decide to accept it. You ask yourself if its logical, you weigh several facets of the issue, and you decide whether feel the information fits into a plausible whole.

noncritical thinking means you accept what's being said BEFORE you listen to it. "Because its coming from the president, and I wish to believe everything he says, I will not tax myself overly considering the logic of what he says", for example. This is why repetititve rhetoric works. Since they don't analyse the meme, it has to be repeated often until it takes root. If something is true or logical, and you've reasoned it out, you don't need to have it said more than once. You get it.

However, if you're a reasonable person, the MORE rhetoric repeated ad nauseum without supporting data, the more suspicious you become.

so, yeah, I agree with you to this extent: I think the republicans are intentionally targetting the noncritical thinkers in the way they craft substanceless repetitive speeches and memes. I also think the democrats in general hope that people will eventually "get it", so they make their argument and then they move on.
I do NOT think however, it originally breaks down cleanly into critical/democrat and noncritical/republican. HOWEVER, the difference in tactic between republican and democratic leaders are forcing it into that very quickly.

what we need our democratic leaders to do, is not only make cogent and concise arguments, which they do, but be more repetitive and catchy in the way they do it.
when you analyse the republican platform, it falls apart in the incongruity between what they say and what they do. But if you'll notice, because they continually repeat the memes, they never have to answer for the discrepancy. The noncritical thinkers continue to believe what they say is true, and that what they say is what they do.

[EstimatedProphet]

18. That's exactly right

However, instead of thinking of them as unreasonable, think of them as brainwashed.

The magical words of Limbaugh over 2 decades have effectively brainwashed a large percentage of the American people. Limbaugh tells them what they want to hear-white people are better than everybody else, if you work hard and don't get ahead it's because there's a conspiracy to keep you down, all the other people won't stay in their place-and people that aren't rich but think they should be love the message. It makes them feel justified in feeling that they are better than everybody else. So, they actually get a 'fix' from listening to him, and it's very difficult to give up.

[Armstead]

19. We need to do a better job at linking reason with emotion and faith

I don;t see the two as mutually exclusive. What teh Repubs successfully did was find some things that really do have a basis in truth, and then framed an emotional message around it that resonated with people. They ignored the otehr half of the equation, and the dark side of their ideology.

What we need to do is place the reasonable aspects of the truth as we see it, and also put it in an emotional context.


But for the most part, liberal Democrats have ceded the emotion card to the GOP.

But it can be done.

I believe there are polticians who are good at that on our side. Wellstone was great at it. Bernie Sanders is also really good at it. Barak Obama could be, if he'd stop being so careful.

[bigtree]

20. you ever have an argument with an idiot . . .

who, instead of answering your question directly, introduces an entirely different argument and substitutes it for the original one?

That's our opposition.

[Jane Austin]

39. It's a lot like

arguing with a drunk.

[mike_c]

21. I'm a university prof...

...so your question has particular resonance to me and my daily life. I think you've hit the nail squarely, but I'd suggest that it's not that Democrats are inherently more rational, but just the opposite-- rational people on average tend toward more liberal politics. The problem is that conservatism (and the special brand of self-serving nuttiness that is the republican flavor) arises from a set of assumptions that are rarely questioned, but mostly erroneous. A reasonable approach leads one to question assumptions, even if only to confirm that they're correct. Questioning assumptions exposes the lies and greed at the heart of American government and foreign policy, and only the most hardened republicans can continue to support that hypocrisy once they've taken an honest look at it.

[Lindsay]

34. Do you suppose, then, that a better approach than

beating people over the head with facts would be to develop a set of questions that would lead them to question there assumptions?

I learned this stuff so long ago (independent thinking was encouraged in most of my classes in junior high and high school, not to mention encouraged by my father) that I don't have any real perspective on an effective approach.

[converted_democrat]

58. So how do we get through to these people???n/t

[mike_c]

59. I'm not sure "we" can "get through" to them at all....

I mean, the key seems to be education and awareness of what's going on in the world. You simply cannot do that for people-- they have to seek awareness themselves except under the most extraordinary circumstances, and those are usually quite uncomfortable. I don't have any answers-- a large segment of the American population seems willfully ignorant, and I don't know how to shake them out of that complacency if they lack the motivation to do it themselves. One thing you're always aware of in this business is that you can't make people learn-- they have to pursue it themselves or they won't get it at all.

[SmokingJacket]

24. Or people who choose to ignore reason.

I'm thinking specifically of a republican family member of mine, who is also religious (though not a fundamentalist). She is actually a very intelligent person... BUT she is also extremely insecure. (she comes from an abusive family who told her she was stupid)

To see her watch the news is really interesting. As soon as a complicated situation comes up on the news, she'll throw up her hands and say, "Oh, who knows WHAT to believe!" and quickly change the channel to something more soothing, like the cooking channel.

She votes for Bush because he has staked out the Morals turf, and above all she believes in being a moral person (as I do, too). When you point out that actually Bush isn't moral at all, she'll flap her hands at you and say, "Oh, who knows WHAT to believe! I just trust him!"

In other words, having to think rationally and compare arguments makes her really, really anxious. She's afraid she's not smart enough to understand what's really going on, so she just "trusts."

Rush Limbaugh plays on this fear: he gives people easy, smart-sounding retorts to complicated arguments. He makes people feel smart and secure.

[glitch]

29. Fear is the core of their power. You've outlined it well with your example

I think if we delve into true believers (those who still haven't woken up to what the bushcult is) we'll find abuse in their histories and fear as their motivator.

[smomfr]

25. It is sooooo simple.........

On the one hand we have assholes and on the other we have non-assholes.

[kentuck]

27. Interesting point: As a Repub, you just "had faith" they would do right

It seems to me that many Repubs operate from that point. They "have faith" that their Party will do what's right. They have no need or the time to really question their Congressmen or Senators. It's easier to just "have faith"...

[specimenfred1984]

28. They're Bigots

--- big·ot·ry P Pronunciation Key (bg-tr)
n.
The attitude, state of mind, or behavior characteristic of a bigot; intolerance. ---



By becoming a person who asks questions, you became tolerant of other's views. They aren't tolerant, it's that simple. The reasons they are not tolerant are numerous but greed is the number 1 reason. The rest is easy: create propaganda that feeds their greed and rationalizations and they then have the excuse/platform to follow, create an "evil other" and, link the BS to God.

Most cons know they're 100% frauds, hence the smirk.

[MrBenchley]

31. Somebody pointed out last month that Rush's dittoheads WANT to be lied to

It doesn't matter to them that you can show that the flabby junkie lied...because they hate and fear the modern world. They want to hear that they're the cats' ass because they're selfish, small-minded white folks with a bellyful of hate and a head full of bad ideas and craven cowardice. And Rush feeds on that....the only reason they're dismal disgraces is not their own failings...it's a plot by liberals.

[EstimatedProphet]

50. "Truthiness"

They WANT to believe Rush. Even if they are shown that Rush is wrong, they will believe he is right, because they WANT him to be right.

[MrBenchley]

51. Exactly so....

[Nimrod2005]

32. Correct, we are a nation of 2 peoples, the mother fuckers EVIL

bastards, and the rest of us. Humanity has always had evil, now we have our own, being in charge of everything...

[NJCher]

33. I remember having faith

At one point in my life I can remember saying that, too. "I'm sure they're operating in our best interests." I think that was about the time of Eisenhower, LOL.

Never again.




Cher

[European Socialist]

35. I agree--that's why so many of us are looking at other countries to live.

[barbaraann]

36. Great analysis! Unfortunately, reasonable people don't always have vision,

courage, the patience to organize, and the drive to lead.

[roseBudd]

38. Pukes hate welfare but could care less about billions wasted on Star Wars

missile defense.

[Stinky The Clown]

40. It is cultism

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2471858

Some are part of the cult and some cause the cult to prosper.

[zeemike]

41. This may sound strange but it is related to racism.

At least that is my feeling.
I say that because when I was in my teens and early twenties I was one of them, that is a right winger not a racist. and the thing that shocked me out of my mesmerized state of consciousness was the Assassination of JFK when one of my right wing friends said "well they finally got that nigger loving son of a bitch"
It was at that point I realized that the Ayn Rand philosophy was more than just a view of economy and was a broad appeal to racism at it's basic level. I had come to see that the right wing friends of mine were all racist at their heart and it was this hate the drove them on, not any logical economic idea.
We don;t have racist anymore because they are all in the closet knowing that they will blow it if they come out except to there trusted friends, but they have not changed and will probably have to die off and prevented from passing it on to the next generation to be made extinct

[sendero]

42. Most definitely yes....

.... and that is why we have to change our rhetoric to include emotional appeals similar to those the Republicans use. Because a large percentage of the population only responds to them.

[oneold1-4u]

44. Logic and Reason

Logic gives way to followers following followers!
This is the one "mind" method used for creating mobs, riots, political agendas, and even all religious denominations and dominations.
My logic says that although I may be right, I don't wish to lead but certainly never be a only a follower!

[ginnyinWI]

47. I'm sure this is part of the problem, Converted Dem

I am also a converted Dem, by the way! I think a lot of so-called Republicans (I call them that because they just vote Repub by rote) are far too lazy to actually pay attention to any issues, and just go out and vote Republican because their parents or friends do. They want to be in the majority and are too afraid to think for themselves or go against the grain. It's a problem, especially with the WH agenda being to cut education around the nation at all levels! I sense they'd rather have us stupid! If we don't know how to think or analyze, we'll just give up trying.

Uninformed people believe what they are told, and want to think that their leaders are honest because then they don't have to go through questioning them. Just swallow it whole--hook line and sinker. For people like these, they have to see something happen--like Katrina, for instance. Then they have to remember it long enough for it to affect their votes. It's a big problem.

We all want to trust our leaders, but with Dems, it's more a case of, in Reagan's words, "Trust but verify"! Like with Kerry I "verified" stuff he said for quite a while before I gave him my trust, and he has proved to be truthful over and over.

[marions ghost]

48. great topic

yes, at heart we are not Democrat vs Republican but 2 mindsets. We need to start understanding that.

Thanks for your story OP--nothing speaks better than somebody who really has been there.

[stepnw1f]

49. Neo-Cons by Definition are Fanatics

I kindly referred to them as helmet heads. But God are they the most arrogant fucks I have ever come across, with absolutely no merit. Just a bunch of fuck-head dweebs with major inferiority complexes.

[Cleita]

52. You are very right.

It bothers me that approximately half of Americans will believe what they want to believe and won't look at any facts that might prove that those beliefs are false. The unscrupulous right wing politicians tell those Americans what they want to hear, no matter how ridiculous it is factually.

[converted_democrat]

60. How do we get the other half to listen? That's what I want to figure out.

I want to figure out a way to get on their level, and make them understand.. I just don't know how to do it..

[Cleita]

64. You have a lot of fears and biases to overcome in these people.

Sometimes I wonder if Jesus himself descended on a white cloud in front of them and told them that they've got it all wrong, if they would crucify him again because they didn't like what he said.

[Ksec]

53. good post

And I agree.

They use emotion. We use facts and common sense.

You get the people worked up with emotion and facts and common sense fly out the window.

They get the people fearing the Dems wanna make the US into some monster, that will kill all the things that are dear to them. We say no we wont. They win.

[Virginian]

54. How about Trust vs. Faith?

I like your Faith vs. Reason. How does Faith vs. Trust work for you? Here are some half baked brain dump ideas for you.

You are supposed to have faith in your deity.
You are supposed to have trust in your leaders.

Because the separation of church and state are becoming blurred in the minds of some, they have faith in their leader. They shouldn't; he is merely a mortal man; they should only have trust.

We are a democracy and my leader who not only doesn't love, but doesn't even know me can not have some secret divine plan for me.

I don't understand why some people have more trust in a man they have only seen in makeup on television reading a prepared script like an actor than they have in the boy their daughter is dating. The boy, they have met in person without a script or makeup. They are both mortals. They both deserve some degree of scrutiny.

[converted_democrat]

55. That's quite brilliant...n/t

[Odin2005]

57. The 1980 election proved people don't want the truth.

They want to be told how great 'Murrika is.

[FreedomAngel82]

61. You're just now realizing this???

[converted_democrat]

62. Perhaps I didn't phrase correctly.. My question is how do we get

unreasonable people to respond to a reasonable message.. There has to be a way to reach them, I just don't know what it is.. Until we can reach them we are facing a losing battle..

[GreenPoet64]

63. My republican mother just said that I needed "to have faith" that

the republicans are not gaining too much power and that they would handle that power without abuse. Ha! Every time I talk to her I tell myself that is the last time that I am going to talk about politics with her. I guess I keep thinking she will see the light. Katrina brought her serious doubts about this administration. But still she has "faith."